Grand Etteilla Egyptian Gypsies Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 May 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

mercenary30	14 May 2004
I just received this as one of seven decks I won in an auction. I like the cards just fine, and I have obviously not read the big LWB that comes with it yet, but I was wondering. What do you think of this deck? It is certainly not a "standard" tarot pack. I would also like to hear jmd's take, since he doesn't consider this deck a tarot pack.

Cerulean	16 May 2004
The only site where I can find specific information: http://www.villarevak.org/bio/etteilla_2.html and Gina Pace's site http://www.wicce.com/etteilla.html A small mention--Lee Bursten actually discusses a comparable one, one that I have in the French version called Jeu des Dames--although I have the Italian reprint just to get the little white book in English. Yours seems to be out of print and by Grimaud, according to the review. Lee Bursten also seems to prefer yours. http://www.tarotpassages.com/etteillathoth-lb.htm In context, Mark Filpas surveyed all the Egyptianized, including Etteilla tarots. http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/historye.html All I have is the comparable Jeu des Dames, a late 1880s reprint. I can only use it in an oracle like manner--I can tell you it can be regarded as a complete system that might yield a tarot-like reading if you read it similar to a Marselles and do not let the extra numbering (cards 1-78 have a certain ordering) throw you. But I just brought it to a conference and did an experiment by laying out all the cards on a cleared hotel room bedroom floor. Sometimes a deck has elegant, simple images that appeal to one and so it may be fun for you to experiment. I had my Jeu des Dames for more than three years before I felt good enough this weekend to experiment. Best wishes, Cerulean P.S. I leave it to Filpas and Bursten and Revak's comparisons to give you more detail. Myself, I can hope this offers some help!

mercenary30	17 May 2004
Thank you Cerulean!! Those links are very helpful. I have already preveiwed a few and will give them more attention.

jmd	17 May 2004
I should perhaps make some brief comments as to why I personally do not consider the Etteilla a 'true' Tarot... but please do also read that wonderful page by Mark Filipas linked to above by Cerulean. The page is clear and gives much important background information. Firstly, it may be worth rementioning that Alliette (Etteilla) first wrote on cartomancy generally - using a 'standard' game of cards, not Tarot. He then later expanded his views and re-wrote his works after De Gebelin's now famous work emerged. The Etteilla deck is therefore influenced by three factors: the first is the Egyptian view of Tarot's origin (as outlined in De Gebelin) - a view which assumes a progressive corruption of Tarot's pristine past; the second is Etteilla's own cartomantic interests; and the third is the various 'rectifications' which could be considered in making a deck. If one looks through the deck, there is no doubt that its principal influence IS Tarot. The minor arcana is basically unchanged, except for some titles (eg, 'Rich Woman'/R. 'Indecision' for the Queen of Disks). There are also numerous Atouts/Major Arcana which are iconographically connected. For example, cards numbered four and five are, respectively, the Star and the World (on a side note, it may be here worth pointing out the numbering of the Star, renamed 'Revelation'/R. 'Manner of Being', to those who work with the CH 'Thoth' deck). Other cards, however, are so altered that their respective connection to Tarot is by seeking to correlate a similarly numbered deck. Of these, cards 6 Secrets, 8 Tenacity, 2 Enlightenment, 7 Support, 1 Wisdom, 12 Prudence, 19 Misery, are the most obvious with their differences to the Marseille from which the Etteilla draws its case. Ie, its iconography is now quite removed - even though some do have some iconographic resemblences in parts. The renaming, of course, is another major alteration - but more importantly, from my perspective, is the totally re-ordering pattern, rendering the deck as merely one which I consider influenced by, but not itself, Tarot. It is interesting that this deck proved, for a long time, the more popular variant within cartomantic and esoteric circles... how the turn of a century can make a change - for in the twentieth century it became superseded by the earlier form of the Marseilles (from which it stemmed) in France and other places.

Cerulean	29 May 2004
I actually ended up trading Mercenary for this and it is rather funny and period...I have some Napolean-period historical (Di Gumppenberg 1810) and Etteilla off-the-main-pattern reprints. It fits a space in my historical collection and I'm now thinking of making up a short story satire that spoofs a Jane Eyre meeting with a sybil, which actually was Jane Eyre meeting her badly disguised employer, Mr. Rochester, for palmistry and face-reading. While I would have liked to think a deck of cards such as the Milanese Di Gumppenberg would have been around them, circa 1847, most likely Rochester would fancied the horridly fashionable Grimaud Grand Etteilla with the very predictive readings... Thanks for the inspiration and period fun...in my mind, the spoof follows the Grimaud Grimoire... Cerulean Mari

Rusty Neon	30 May 2004
IMHO, a deck can be a tarot deck even if its features don't strictly adhere to the Marseilles canon. If one insists on strict adherence to Marseilles trump numbering in order for a deck to be considered a tarot, then that excludes decks like Jacques Viéville's from being considered a tarot deck. [maybe this also excludes visconti decks from tarot decks. i forgot whether their trump numbering differs from the marseilles.] This would also result in the RWS not being a tarot deck. If one insists on strict adherence to Marseilles trump imagery, then that excludes the Jacques Viéville's deck and Visconti tarot decks from being considered tarot decks. This would also result in the RWS not being a tarot deck. If any change of trump archetypes from the Marseilles deck is fatal, then modern-day gaming-type tarot decks used in France for playing the game of tarot are excluded from being considered tarot decks. Best regards, Rusty Neon (who, in ignorant bliss, thinks that the Visconti, Viéville, Grand Etteilla, modern-day gaming-type, RWS, Thoth, Osho Zen, Terrestrial Tarot, and Egipcios Kier decks are tarot decks)

Cerulean	30 May 2004
First, thanks from various people who actually helped illuminate some of their opinions...and then my view of Etteilla variations, then perhaps a little about how that pertains to other tarot designs in history. Etteilla as a Milanese variation...I only said that to tease you. It's actually fascinating for me to see some historic Italian Etteilla variations. And now I have two French Etteilla variations. (Jeu des Dames by Editions Dussierre and the Grand Etteilla by Grimaud). These decks help me follow the Villa Revak writing with some understanding and I can see small links between Etteilla and French and Italian divinatory deck designs. Maybe even English-Anglo designs later on. The Grimaud used version that I received from Mercenary with English instructions was dated 1969, so it's one of the vintage ones that I'm happy to have... Stylistically, the fineness engraving of the reproduction Grimaud "Grand Etteilla Egyptian Gypsies Tarot" reminds me of the "Esoteric Ancient Tarots" from Lo Scarabeo and an Etteilla design variation from Italy reviewed by Mark Filpas. http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/cartoma.html The above remind me of the delicacy of engraving and Napoleonic style of the Di Gumppenberg 1811 (Neoclassical) with Spanish Pips from various publishers. All these are design variations that I am glad to have, they add to my delight---even if not straight from main French route of tarot history, I could see them as continuing design examples that circulated among the European countries. There's even another rather ugly but odd Etteilla- Egyptian variation by Dal Negro that I happened to get from an import store out of business that used to get foreign titles...if one liked the Jeu des Dames version, this variation takes off on it: http://www.trigono.com/tarots/TA02TAGG.htm In my small opinion, yes, the French Marseilles and designs did take up their own path first raised by Italian Triumphi/Tarocchi games and poetry. The French designs established their grand tradition marching along a different route...but I don't mind seeing other routes. If you tell me about the true tarot traditions arose from the French Marseilles---I am rather respectful and delighted to hear from people who delightedly use these style of cards, like JMD and Rusty Neon so devotedly enjoy. When I see all the different variations, in history, I enjoy how rich European design history continues to unfold for me. I also like odd paths such as the Milanese Tarocco from the 1800s and Swiss Marseilles styles (one from 1804). One might categorize them as games first. Those who are knowledgeable tell me they are really different a tarot variation to be counted in respects to the French divinatory or design routes--and I agree. The Milanese tarocco, the Etteilla 'tarot', the Swiss Marseilles would be different in where they originated and where they went or ended up---different from French Marseilles design roads. I think Italian and Swiss patterns did cross paths with French tarot, maybe even recrossed design paths over the centuries! I hope what I said made sense and explained why I liked the various Etteilla and other designs. Best wishes, Cerulean Mari

Cerulean	30 May 2004
This is a fascinating although odd deck--deserves it's own thread. I have questions!

darwinia	13 Nov 2004
One of the new members was talking about this so I went to look at it. I don't care about the esoteric elements or the fact that it isn't a tarot deck, I was quite taken with it because I thought it would go very, very nicely with the i Misteri della Sibilla and the Thoth deck and for a clarifying deck. ;-))) I like the wide borders. Unfortunately it seems to be OOP and Tarot Garden has it but it costs me so much more to order from there because of the money order fee and fees and tax at the border that it isn't feasible to order from there too often. How big are the cards please?

Cerulean	13 Nov 2004
The Editions Dussierre and the Grimaud versions of Grand Etteilla vary in that the Dussierre has rounded corners. The Grimaud is glossier, slightly brighter and slick, new looking in comparison to my Dussierre. Best wishes, Cerulean

Rusty Neon	13 Nov 2004
Cerulean wrote: The Editions Dussierre and the Grimaud versions of Grand Etteilla vary in that the Dussierre has rounded corners. The Grimaud is glossier, slightly brighter and slick, new looking in comparison to my Dussierre. It's interesting to compare the Dusserre Grand Etteilla (not to be confused with the Dusserre Tarot Égyptien) with the Grimaud Grand Etteilla. The Dusserre has the older keywords and is a photoreproduction deck. The Grimaud has newer (i.e., revised) card keywords. The Dusserre's keywords are French only; the Grimaud's are bilingual French and English. Although newer, "less traditional", the Grimaud's keywords could be more useful for divination, in the case of some of the cards, especially some of the courts. For example, the Dusserre's King of Cups is keyworded as "Homme blond" (Blond man), while the Grimaud's King of Cups is keyworded as "Probité".

Cerulean	13 Nov 2004
I only looked at the size of the cards as Darwinia requested. I see that I did not spell the name of the publisher correctly. So in terms of the booklets and titles, meanings, etc., it was kind of someone else to add better details. Thanks for the valuable evaluation on the divinatory meaning content, Rusty! Regards Cerulean

Etteilla	14 Nov 2004
I always seem to get a little sensitive when I hear or read about "that" deck is not a 'real' tarot deck. I have also read that one may divine with a standard deck of playing cards. Is there an official, certified, historically correct, rectified, non-rectified, deck that's supposed to be used? As I am new to this site and these threads and the tarot in general, I readily admit being light on the history of this deck. To have a resource such as this site to explore further information on this deck and subject-can't tell you all how excited I've been about that. This deck was gifted to me sometime in the mid 70's. It came to me in the 'traditional' way - given. By a member of a French family no less. I didn't know what they were and had no knowledge or interest in the tarot, but they were intriquing. Thru all my moves, it stayed with me. I begin using it in the late 80's, slowing reading for myself and friends. The LWB isn't much guidance, by any means, but it was a place to start. It provided a framework and a process. 78 cards, Majors, pips, courts. I have experienced many interesting and valid readings with these cards. Yet it has been a somewhat frustrating process. I have only met one other who has and uses this deck. Thanks to Mary Greer I was directed to Jim Revak's villarevak.org site which does a three source comparison between Waite, Mathers, and School of Etteilla. Side by side-excellent reading. All who have an interest in this subject should take a look. It will always be a special deck to me. I guess what I'm left with is... if one can divine with the Halloween Tarot or the Baseball Tarot, this one will work as well. We're pretty blessed to have this global network to discuss, explore, and develop our intuitions, experiences, and creativity. No secret societies needed-just an open forum of sharing. What a concept. On a whim I drew a card for a one card read on this from my deck- Knight of Wands (Card#24) Departure - The Horseman On The Watch.

darwinia	14 Nov 2004
Rusty Neon wrote: It's interesting to compare the Dusserre Grand Etteilla (not to be confused with the Dusserre Tarot Égyptien) with the Grimaud Grand Etteilla. The Dusserre has the older keywords and is a photoreproduction deck. The Grimaud has newer (i.e., revised) card keywords. The Dusserre's keywords are French only; the Grimaud's are bilingual French and English. Although newer, "less traditional", the Grimaud's keywords could be more useful for divination, in the case of some of the cards, especially some of the courts. For example, the Dusserre's King of Cups is keyworded as "Homme blond" (Blond man), while the Grimaud's King of Cups is keyworded as "Probité". I think the one on the Tarot Garden site must be the Grimaud one then because it is bilingual; it also has straight corners according to Mari. That's the one I want, thanks you two. Can someone give me the dimensions of the deck please? That's what I want to determine, the size of the cards in inches. Gee, just when you think you have all the decks you need. If it comes my way I'd like that, but they aren't must-haves or anything, I'd just enjoy working with them. I really enjoy my Sibilla deck and I know I'd like this too.

darwinia	14 Nov 2004
Etteilla wrote: I guess what I'm left with is... if one can divine with the Halloween Tarot or the Baseball Tarot, this one will work as well. We're pretty blessed to have this global network to discuss, explore, and develop our intuitions, experiences, and creativity. No secret societies needed-just an open forum of sharing. What a concept. On a whim I drew a card for a one card read on this from my deck- Knight of Wands (Card#24) Departure - The Horseman On The Watch. Yes, I would agree, I am never listening to the "proper" way or designation with things. I'ts too restirictive. Thanks for drawing a card--it makes me keen on the deck.

Etteilla	14 Nov 2004
To Mercenary30, If you decide to let that deck go, please let me know. Thank you. Etteilla

Etteilla	14 Nov 2004
Darwinia, Thanks for the post. You're very welcome. Card size is 4 5/8" by 2 1/2"

Cerulean	14 Nov 2004
and I'm delighted that it's well-used box is with my other Etteilla-style decks. And Darwinia, the dimensions are four and three-quarter (4 3/4) inches by two and five eighths (2 5/8) inches--that is the size of one card from corner to corner. It is similar--not the same size as I thought earlier- to a Lo Scarabeo rounded corner card. A card stack is one and one-half (1 1/2) inches thick, the booklet is about three-eighths (3/8) inches thick. The box is five (5) inches by two (2) inches by two and three-quarter (2 3/4) inches altogether Best wishes, Cerulean P.S. I used both my ruler and sewing gauge to get 'exact' measurements - mine is a used 1969 Grimaud edition, which might explain variance in size or dimensions

Etteilla	14 Nov 2004
I've enjoyed the exchanges on this thread.

Cerulean	14 Nov 2004
First apologies: since the first post, I have acquired an Editions Dusserre "Jeu du Grand Etteilla, XIXc siecle" that looks like the 1910 edition of the Grimaud pictured below and I was looking at these cards in any November 2004 discussion. I am sorry for not clarifying that point. The 1910 version looks like my Editions Dusserre Jeu du Grand Etteilla. http://www.gambler.ru/sukhty/decks03/d01612/d01612.htm Scroll down and the 1969 and 1998 versions are shown, explained as Rusty said...my used 1969 Grimaud has a different card back than the 1998 version below. Wow, these are very very different! Thanks for the questions, Darwinia, it makes me curious... Etteilla, and others does yours look like the 1910 or the 1969 or brighter 1998 Grimaud? Regards, Cerulean

darwinia	14 Nov 2004
Cerulean wrote: Etteilla, and others does yours look like the 1910 or the 1969 or brighter 1998 Grimaud? The 1910 version has the lovely soft colouring of the reproduction Soprafino, but I also equally like the new, brighter version. Thanks Mari and Etteilla for the dimensions. I see possibilities in a "set" here Mari. If I can ever hunt this deck up somewhere to buy, it can go with my Sibilla deck and some sort of book. Since I'm not interested in the esoteric history of this, I might scrounge a while to find a suitable book tie-in for it. I have invented the Calculus of Tarot, I am Zeta functioning like mad and realizing the formulaic infinity known as "What book would go well with this deck." It doesn't pay but I shall realize the relevance of analytic continuation reading about the "Undaunted Courage" of the Lewis and Clark expedition in a subset with the Lewis and Clark Exploration Cards. Something like that. How come all the decks I would like are unattainable? So that leaves the Magickal, the Hermetic, and a few other odd things. One day they will turn up like the Santa Fe tarot did, and promptly get eaten by the Bosch. I can't win, but as Paul Simon says: "I can't run but I can walk much faster. . "

Etteilla	15 Nov 2004
Cerulean wrote: First apologies: since the first post, I have acquired an Editions Dusserre "Jeu du Grand Etteilla, XIXc siecle" that looks like the 1910 edition of the Grimaud pictured below and I was looking at these cards in any November 2004 discussion. I am sorry for not clarifying that point. The 1910 version looks like my Editions Dusserre Jeu du Grand Etteilla. http://www.gambler.ru/sukhty/decks03/d01612/d01612.htm Scroll down and the 1969 and 1998 versions are shown, explained as Rusty said...my used 1969 Grimaud has a different card back than the 1998 version below. Wow, these are very very different! Thanks for the questions, Darwinia, it makes me curious... Etteilla, and others does yours look like the 1910 or the 1969 or brighter 1998 Grimaud? Regards, Cerulean Cerulean, The deck I have must be the 1969 version as it matches the box3 on the link you provided. I got it in the mid to late 70's so it couldn't have been the 1998 version. The back pattern is different though, than the ones shown. Etteilla

The Grand Etteilla Egyptian Gypsies Tarot thread was originally posted on 14 May 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.