Marseilles Deck: which one?????

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 Jun 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

TemperanceAngel	22 Jun 2004
I know it's been asked before and I know it will be asked again but which deck should I buy? Any suggestions? If so, why that suggestion? Remember I know nothing about Marseilles, so go easy with me and be gentle :) Thanks!

HudsonGray	22 Jun 2004
To get a look at some of them side by side, I'd recommend checking out this site: http://www.advancenet.net/~jscole/tarot.htm When you go into the 'classic decks' especially click on "A picture is worth 1000 words", that's where the side by side comparisons are shown. Some of the art may appeal to you more than others, some are more colorful, it'll give you a nice reference to start with, too.

Jewel-ry	22 Jun 2004
OOh TA, Thats a difficult one, I have the Fournier, Hadar and the Camoin. The Fournier is a really nice size, has rich colours, is easy to shuffle and feels 'silky'. The Camoin, I also like because it has these qirky little things in it, like golf balls and eggs which makes it an interesting study. I like the faces on the Hadar and its colouring is more subtle and more muted. I couldn't tell you which one to get, I wouldn't want to part with any of them. Absolutely no help at all am I? :)

Black*Cat	22 Jun 2004
Hi TA - I've only got the Hadar (arrived yesterday - yay!!) & I chose it for the colours, so I can't comment on any of the others. It's beautiful & I'd recommend it to anyone. You can see the cards here: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/hadar-marseilles/ The deck took seven weeks to ship from Canada to Melbourne. When I ordered it was only available from Canada or France, but I think Tarot Garden are stocking them now - they might be a bit quicker. I particularly wanted the Hadar so it was worth the wait for me. If you're in a hurry I think the Haunted Bookshop might have a TdM or two, their catalogue is at: http://www.haunted.com.au/catalogue/tarot.html Happy hunting, Black*Cat (Edited to add: the backs of the Hadar are scrumptious - so if you're into card backs these are well worth a look)

Rusty Neon	22 Jun 2004
Like Jewel-ry says, it's hard to choose just one. For starters, it's great to have two: For a photoreproduction of an actual old deck from 1760 (Nicolas Conver, Bibliothèque Nationale museum, Paris) , I'd get the Héron Tarot de Marseille. And as a modern restoration (and in fact, a restoration based on that very same 1760 deck), I'd get the Jodorowsky-Camoin Tarot de Marseille for its visual stimulation and bright colours. If it were ever available as a 78-card deck (rather than majors only), I would like Flornoy's restoration for closest fidelty in terms of colours and design to that 1760 deck. The Grimaud/Marteau and the Fournier (being a colourful clone of the Grimaud/Marteau) are the closest of the 78-card restoration decks to that 1760 deck in terms of design, but not colours. That said, no matter if you get the Jodo-Camoin or some other deck reproduction 'based' on the 1760 BN Conver (those qualifying reproductions being the Grimaud, Marteau, Hadar, Fournier, Flornoy), it's wonderful to have the Héron as a reference point as all named reproductions use the 1760 BN Conver as a departure point. The Jodo-Camoin follows the 1760 BN Conver colours closer than any other 78-card restoration. The Hadar is often vaunted in favour over the Jodo-Camoin, but it should be noted that both Hadar and Jodo-Camoin take liberties with the design of the 1760 BN Conver, by adding details not supported by the 1760 BN Conver. Jodo-Camoin is closer to the 1760 BN Conver in terms of colours, whereas Hadar departs altogether from such colours. If the Jodo-Camoin didn't exist, I would prefer the Grimaud/Marteau over the Hadar because of the Grimaud/Marteau's closer fidelty to the 1760 BN Conver designs.

jmd	22 Jun 2004
Given what I know of you, TemperanceAngel, I'd suggest the Hadar... But do have a look at my various Marseille decks (but I do not have a copy of the Fournier to compare) and then perhaps decide. Of the Marseille I have, the main one I would NOT recommend is the LS Burdel (sorry LS - but adding that zero to the Fool, and adding the titles in those four languages takes away, as far as I'm concerned).

Diana	22 Jun 2004
The Fournier is an awful deck. Please don't buy a Marseille deck for it's "pretty" colours!!!! If you want a pretty deck, buy a fluffy-bunny deck with fairies on it. The LS Burdel is no good either, as jmd pointed out. The Camoin is neo-psychedelic. Kind of a 15th Century Discotheque. Hadar's is based on the Dodal. (People seem to forget this when they critique his deck.) Get a Conver (Heron), AND either a Grimaud for it's simplicity, or a Hadar. What is useful if you get the Hadar and the Conver, you're getting a taste of both Schools and Traditions. (The Conver and the Dodal). The Dodal deck by USGames is lousy. That is why I would rather suggest getting the Hadar. There are flaws in it - even Kris would do some things differently today. But the flaws only serve to underline the perfection that is the Tarot.

Le_Corsair	22 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana The Fournier is an awful deck. Please don't buy a Marseille deck for it's "pretty" colours!!!! If you want a pretty deck, buy a fluffy-bunny deck with fairies on it. By the way, Diana, did you ever acquire a Fournier to study it in depth? Bob :THERM

Umbrae	22 Jun 2004
As usual, in matters Tarot, I enthusiastically agree with Diana. Get a Hadar. The colors and imagery are tops, and hey Bob…the backs rock!

Rusty Neon	22 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana The Camoin is neo-psychedelic. Kind of a 15th Century Discotheque. Colour- and paint- wise, JC Flornoy restored the 1760 BN Conver in pretty much the same fashion as did Jodo-Camoin. So I guess the Flornoy is also neo-psychedelic. Quote: Hadar's is based on the Dodal. (People seem to forget this when they critique his deck.) I don't own Hadar's deck. Maybe I'll get it when his explanatory book on the deck is published. From the scans I've seen though, it seems that Hadar used the Conver as a template and then added elements, be it of his own minting, be it from 1701 Dodal, or be it from other antique tarots. In particular, Hadar's court cards follow the scenery of the Dodal. However, the facial features throughout the Hadar deck appear to be more like the Conver than the Dodal. Quote: The Dodal deck by USGames is lousy. I find the US Games / Carti Mundi deck not a bad deck, especially alongside the 1701 Camoin on which it's based. However, for a first deck, I'd recommend a Conver-based deck, rather than a Dodal-based deck. If the US Games / Carti Mundi deck is lousy because of its art, that's natural because it follows the design and art of the 1701 Dodal closest (and follows it more closely than does Hadar). The quality of the art in the 1701 Dodal isn't as good as that of the 1760 Conver. To the extent that one says that the US Games / Carti Mundi deck is lousy because of its limited colour usage compared to the 1701 Dodal colour usage, I agree with Diana. The US Games / Carti Mundi deck should ideally have followed the colour usage of the 1701 Dodal deck. There is a lot less colour-usage variety across the pips than the Grimaud/Marteau.

Rusty Neon	22 Jun 2004
JC Flornoy should be talked into expanding his majors only restoration of the 1760 BN Conver into a 78-card deck. Such a deck, especially if the cards were laminated and the price a mass-market price, would be a wonderful modern-day close restoration of the 1760 BN Conver. Such a deck would be welcome (at least by me), especially since the Jodo-Camoin and the Hadar are attempts at a restored Ür-Tarot, rather than attempts at a restored 1760 BN Conver.

Cerulean	22 Jun 2004
Here's some scans from Felicity for Marseilles: http://home.comcast.net/~felicityk/tarot/marseilles/index.html Mark Filpas pointed out this set, which is about twelve or thirteen dollars and I've found it at most bookstores--I've heard from people who posted here that the book is not to their liking, but the big cards are a nice reproduction. I have the set and really like the cards: http://www.tarotpassages.com/TarotSet-mf.htm http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/marscomp.html Take care and hope this helps. Regards Cerulean

Le_Corsair	22 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae As usual, in matters Tarot, I enthusiastically agree with Diana. Get a Hadar. The colors and imagery are tops, and hey Bob…the backs rock! I know, I keep meaning to, but other decks get in the way; next on the list is the second edition of the Tarot of Prague. :-) Actually, I picked up a copy of the Tarot Classic (Schaffhouse), and I find that I love the colors and pattern of it more than I do the Marseilles. I'll soon pick up a copy of the US Games Dodal, because if it was based on a deck from 1701, that falls right into the Golden Age of Piracy. Thanks, Cerulean, for pointing that out! Bob :THERM

Major Tom	22 Jun 2004
Now I know there's those who don't like the Burdel restoration because of the addition of the titles and numbers, but for the images themselves I've grown rather fond of it. I also managed to get a hold of the Dusserre Dodal - a photo reproduction thanks to Kenji. ;) This is very nice and it is quite surprising how closely the US Games/Carta Mundi deck follows it. I'd like to get a Conver. But most of all I'd love a photoreproduction of the Noblet. Is there one?

felicityk	22 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom I'd like to get a Conver. But most of all I'd love a photoreproduction of the Noblet. Is there one? I see images from one on Andy's Playing Cards (mixed in with others on this page): http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards69.htm I don't know who published it, though. Felicity

Rusty Neon	22 Jun 2004
Flornoy at www.letarot.com publishes a major arcana 'restoration' of the Noblet. But there is no Noblet photoreproduction deck in print. I have a post on the boards asking specifically about this and to date, no one has confirmed that such a photoreproduction deck of the Noblet is in print. Flornoy's site shows scans of old Noblet cards; perhaps these are from an out of print photoreproduction deck.

Rusty Neon	22 Jun 2004
Just a note about the US Games deck. US Games used to but no longer distributes (except old stock in stores) the Carti Mundi deck. The US Games website currently lists the AG Mueller Convos deck (neither Conver- nor Dodal-based) as the Tarot of Marseilles that US Games carries. If you see the US Games / Carti Mundi at the store, grab it while you can.

Moonbow*	22 Jun 2004
I can only give my opinion here because I don't have enough marseilles decks to compare TA, but I asked this same question many months ago. I already had the US Games Tarot of Marseilles (which to be fair is not 'that' bad) BUT ... when my Hadar arrived I just knew I had something special in my hands. I am so happy with it that so far I haven't felt any need to get another Marseilles (yes, most unusual for me ;) ) At some point I will probably get a Camoin - it's been on my wishlist for a long time now, but there is still so much to see in the Hadar, I am a long way off from finishing my study of it. Whatever you decide I am sure you will be hooked..........

Emily	22 Jun 2004
I'm not over keen on the woodcut style of the Marseille so I was a little surprised when the Fournier caught my attention and for a beginner (me) into the world of the Marseille style of deck, its a great little deck to start with. The colours are bright and the artwork a little more refined than a traditional Marseille deck. The Fournier reminds me of an Italian Soprafino deck more than Marseille. If you want one that hasn't been re-worked or you are after the more traditional Marseille look then this deck probably wouldn't be for you - but I must admit I love it. :)

Cerulean	22 Jun 2004
Since we are posting favorites, what I did is buy along the lines of my happy following of playing and tarot card historians and so my version of Marseilles collecting is the following: -The inexpensive Jane Lyle Tarot set for a nice, large copy to check the designs and ideas. -Tarot de Paris/Vievieille for the early samples of Italian/French cross-cultural flavors, as I also have the later French-Italian examples -Swiss Marsiglia for it's prettiness in color stenciling and some design variation...may have been a sample of both Swiss/Belgium influences and designs may have been Mrs. Yeats-style tarot as seen in Yeats and the Golden Dawn samples...he probably probably had the Milanese Dotti Tarocco. --I'll check a local bookstore...they have a Carta Mundi/U.S. Games sample but they don't always sell what the out-of-box samples look like...the Marseilles isn't heavily asked for among their predominantly mass-market modern art and Rider-Waite style selections... The Hader was nice, but oddly I favor either older designs or my Italianates to use. The 1804 Swiss Marsiglia comes out every time when I am reading about designs that touch on the Marseilles. Mine's from Il Menghello and you can see samples from Tarot Garden and Felicity's site...or below http://www.trigono.com/tarots/tarocco-marsigliese-svizzero.htm http://www.themysticeye.com/pics/marsig.htm

tmgrl2	22 Jun 2004
Of the ones I have, I like them in this order: Camoin-Jodo and Hadar equally but for different reasons. The Hadar somehow just "flies" for me. But I also like the Camoin. Next, I would say Conver (I have the 1995 remake and the woodcut from Camoin house ) and Grimaud. I don't think I could own and use just "one." terri

TemperanceAngel	22 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by tmgrl2 Camoin-Jodo and Hadar equally but for different reasons. The Hadar somehow just "flies" for me. But I also like the Camoin. These are the two I am thinking of, but you mean if I buy one I have to buy two?? Come on you Marseilles fans are taking this too far!!! *just kidding* jmd, it's a shame I won't be at the next Tarot Cafe to check out your decks....maybe the next Cafe after that, unless something else is happening in July where we meet up! Diana, I will always listen to what you have to say about the Marseilles and I am just so happy you are here to answer my question. *TA smiles* Everyone else, too many to answer individually, thanks so much for your posts and links. *TA rubs her hands together and thinks about Marseilles and actually feels quite excited about the prospect of getting one...this is very strange indeed...*

jmd	22 Jun 2004
I had not realised that J-C Flornoy's Conver reproduction was ready - I have his Dodal and his Noblet only, which are each Majors only, and in no way resemble the style of colourations as used on the Fournier. (TemperanceAngel, I won't be at TarotCafé either in July (it is in the wonderful hands of others!), but could arrange something next week) :) If the question had been asked as a more general question, by the way, I may have suggested a different Marseille, some of which I rate in my deck list (which I notice I'll have to update!).

Rusty Neon	22 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd If the question had been asked as a more general question, by the way, I may have suggested a different Marseille, some of which I rate in my deck list (which I notice I'll have to update!). jmd ... Feel free to give a more general answer, as that is the direction this thread has taken!

TemperanceAngel	24 Jun 2004
I've been looking at the decks properly instead of quick glances and personally these are the one which appeal to me: the Conver and the Grimaud... *Now which one to get....*

Diana	24 Jun 2004
TemperanceAngel: I think it depends what you are getting this deck for. If you want to just use it for study purposes at first, to explore the Marseilles and the ideas that are embedded in it, I would definitely recommend you buy the Conver. If you want to start out doing readings immediately, I personally would buy the Grimaud, because of it's stark simplicity (deceptive simplicity, obviously. :) ). I use the Grimaud and the Hadar for my readings. I do use the Conver at times, but it tends to give different kinds of messages. But if I told you which ones, you'd think I'm a nutcase. (Or do you think that already?) Eventually, I think you will need to get two decks. Or even three. But one is enough to start out with. If you have problems buying a Grimaud, let me know. They are the most popular here.

TemperanceAngel	24 Jun 2004
Thanks Diana, I won't be reading with it yet :) LOL I just feel drawn to the imagery of those especially the Conver and will eventually get a Hadar to balance it. I really like the Grimaud too. That's the problem with the Marseilles, you want one, you want three or more ;) I've wanted Thoth deck for about 10 years and am just getting now, so who knows when I will get the Marseilles??? (Hopefully it won't be in another 10 years....)

The 78th Fool	06 Jul 2004
Hi Temperance Angel, It's so difficult to choose. At a push, I would say buy the Grimaud and/or the Heron repro of the 1760 Conver, but I also like Lo Scarabeo's standard Marseilles deck which is based on the Claude Burdel. (If I'm reading, its usually with the Grimaud - It's closer in detail to the original Conver than the Hadar or Camoin and I prefer the simpler, albeit un - historically accurate colours!

The Marseilles Deck: which one????? thread was originally posted on 22 Jun 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.