visconti-sforza vs. scapini

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 Jun 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

deranged_walrus	07 Jun 2004
hmm. I'm having a slight dilemma. I'd really love to have a deck that looks antique. After browsing through various decks, I've narrowed it down to the Medieval Scapini or the Visconti-Sforza (and if I pick this one, I'll have to chose which version). No other deck really struck me. I'm a little proud of mself: I recognized the Major Arcana in the VS the first time I laid eyes on it without looking at the captions. I think this might be better for me, but then I'm the type of person who prefers illustrated Minor Arcana cards (even though I'm able to read regular pip cards), so the Scapini seems better in that regard. At the same time, I really prefer the un-numbered, sequence-it-your-way cards of VS. And I'm not too keen on the longer size of the Scapini, but at http://www.wicce.com the review of Scapini makes me think I'd love it. Plus, VS wasn't used as a divination deck in the first place. Tarot is all about how you feel and how the cards speak to you, and I'm not sure how well VS would speak to me if the whole time I'm sitting there thinking, "These weren't commissioned to be a divination tool." I'm a broke university student, so I can afford only one (I'm already getting the Tarot of the Cloisters, and Vargo's Gothic Tarot). Can't decide. ack! Any insight to your experiences with either deck is helpful. I'd use the deck for reading and explaining the tarot to others (in the past two weeks I've done just that to my friends by comparing my RWS and St Petersburg to decks online. Pointing out symbolism and common images...it's fun and helps me learn). Just so you know, any replies in the form of "You should get..." will be skipped. I'd prefer "What I've noticed..." and "When I read with..." Thanks a lot!

Mimers	07 Jun 2004
OK, my advise is you should get the Medevil Scapini because the Medevil Scapini is a modern deck, that is extreamly fun to work with. The pips are not fully illustrated so you are still rather free to interpret. The Visconti was never intended to be read with. It was created to play the game tarocci with. The Marseille deck on the other hand is very interesting to explore if you can get past the artwork. Also, if you skip posts because of how they begin, you could miss out on an awful lot of good info. That would be a shame. Do let us know which one you decide on! Take care, Mimi

Moonbow*	07 Jun 2004
I agree with Mimers, I am trying to read my Visconti Sforza but so far it is not easy. If the deck is primarily for reading out of those two I would say the Scapini too. BUT.... Marseilles, marseilles, marseilles..........(particularly the Hadar) ..... get this one .... go on ... go on.... })

Myrrha	07 Jun 2004
I don't see much similarity between the two decks. Scapini does make references to the Visconti-Sforza but visually his deck does not look (to me) at all historical or antique and I'm always puzzled to see people putting it in the same category as historical decks. The Scapini cards are whimsical and wry and just soaked with humor. They are much more dynamic and busy. The Visconti-Sforza cards are static, iconic figures, serious and high-toned. It is a beautiful deck but there are other historical decks that are more interesting to read with and study. There are a few here who read with it... perhaps a search would bring up threads where they talk about their experience of the deck. --Myrrha

TemperanceAngel	07 Jun 2004
I love the Scapini, get that one }) }) })

dolphingirl	07 Jun 2004
another vote for the Medieval Scapini

Cerulean	07 Jun 2004
If you wish for Medieval Scapini: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?&ph=2&imageField.y=0&imageField.x=0&tn=scapini&cmid=hp-search-form&sts=t If you get it for a less expensive price, you might be able to get the new book by Ron Decker coming out for the deck--and in the meantime, you can also use the booklet that comes with the deck. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you wish for the Visconti, U.S. Games version, the third listing below is $31.00--they said new item, so a booklet should be included: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?stext=visconti+tarocchi&ph=2&sby=key&sts=t ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- While I might recommend the Visconti Gold from Lo Scarabeo as a recreated deck and book, there's a whole range of Italian printings of the Visconti and this is a modernized, brighter version with some simplification. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you decide that you want the closest and best quality printing of the old cards and don't mind an Italian booklet, I can make other recommendations. My guess was you were shopping with U.S. vendors and availability in mind. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good wishes with your choices! Cerulean Mari

Rusty Neon	07 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by deranged_walrus Just so you know, any replies in the form of "You should get..." will be skipped. I'd prefer "What I've noticed..." and "When I read with..." You shouldn't ... get so hung up about whether a deck was commissioned as a reading deck. It's better to see if, all other things equal, the deck appeals to you and you could read with it. Even many 20th century tarot decks weren't necessarily commissioned as reading decks, e.g., Thoth, which was a deck conceived as a deck for magic. As well, I wouldn't be so sure that the Medieval Scapini deck whereof you speak was commissioned as a reading deck. It likely was an 'artist's statement' deck.

Cerulean	07 Jun 2004
U.S. Games printed version at www.tarot.com --if you look and choose one card to study one window and also look in this online link to the Dal Negro Visconti, you may notice that the Dal Negro versions are brighter. http://www.gambler.ru/sukhty/decks05/d02046/d02046.htm If you can wait to buy through alidastore.com the Dal Negro version, it might be more pleasing. It is about $35.00 and the booklet is in Italian, same size as the U.S. Games version. Of the different printings that I have, the price and quality of the Dal Negro cards rivals the first edition 1974 printings that was commissioned by U.S. Games--the first editions I had picked up on E-Bay and abebooks.com...one pricey, one cheap, so it evened out. Best wishes, Cerulean Mari

deranged_walrus	07 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mimers [i] Also, if you skip posts because of how they begin, you could miss out on an awful lot of good info. That would be a shame. It's just that I resent people telling me which deck to get. I'd rather collect what everyone has to say about the options and see if it helps me any. The ultimate choice is mine, I know. I'd just like help, not dictation. Quote: Originally posted by Myrrha I don't see much similarity between the two decks. Scapini does make references to the Visconti-Sforza but visually his deck does not look (to me) at all historical or antique and I'm always puzzled to see people putting it in the same category as historical decks. The Scapini cards are whimsical and wry and just soaked with humor. They are much more dynamic and busy. The Visconti-Sforza cards are static, iconic figures, serious and high-toned. It is a beautiful deck but there are other historical decks that are more interesting to read with and study. There are a few here who read with it... perhaps a search would bring up threads where they talk about their experience of the deck. --Myrrha I should've clarified that I wanted one with artwork from that time period. Reproductions, yes, but with medieval art on it. I've looked at other historical decks, and none smacked me in the face with "I'M THE ONE FOR YOU!" Scapini and VS were the only ones. Let me emphasize that none others appeal to me. Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon You shouldn't ... get so hung up about whether a deck was commissioned as a reading deck. It's better to see if, all other things equal, the deck appeals to you and you could read with it. Even many 20th century tarot decks weren't necessarily commissioned as reading decks, e.g., Thoth, which was a deck conceived as a deck for magic. As well, I wouldn't be so sure that the Medieval Scapini deck whereof you speak was commissioned as a reading deck. It likely was an 'artist's statement' deck. thanks. but like I said, call it an authenticity issue, but I'm not sure if I could explain "No, these are tarot cards, but they were made from playing cards" even to myself, let alone someone for whom I'm reading. Thanks for all the comments...I'm still debating, but they helped.

Rusty Neon	07 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by deranged_walrus thanks. but like I said, call it an authenticity issue, but I'm not sure if I could explain "No, these are tarot cards, but they were made from playing cards" even to myself, let alone someone for whom I'm reading. You've turned the authenticity issue on its head, for, in fact, the earliest and clearest statements of what tarot is are decks that were conceived as playing cards, e.g., the Tarot de Marseille deck.

Cerulean	08 Jun 2004
I'll post to the book thread, but I would say the value of the book in my use of the Scapini deck for a reading has increased about tenfold... Incidently, a U.S. Games Scapini that I purchased this year actually has brighter coloring than one I had for about four years--I've never read with my U.S. Games Scapini decks, so I don't why the lamination or the inks on the older printing have a yellower cast...just luck of the draw, perhaps. Hope the deck purchase turns out good, best wishes on your choice! Cerulean Mari

Diana	08 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon You've turned the authenticity issue on its head, for, in fact, the earliest and clearest statements of what tarot is are decks that were conceived as playing cards, e.g., the Tarot de Marseille deck. Just having a quick stroll on Aeclectic while having a breather from my work. Tarot cards were probably not invented for divination as is used today, i.e. to tell the future. But there is little doubt I think that Divination (getting in touch with the Divine) was the goal. As well as a means to Teach people. Tarot is a silent Master. I doubt very much that those who coded the Tarot would have put such efforts into this great book of esoterism, including gnostic symbology... just in order to play games to while the time away. I reckon the Elders had another thought in mind when they decided to encode the Tarot onto pieces of cardboard (that resembled faintly the playing cards that the proletariat would be using in their taverns to play games) so that the Tarot would never disappear. They could have chosen a different method... they probably decided this one was the smartest way to do it. They were smart people, those initiates. In fact, the Tarot cards that are used in France for playing the game of Tarot, do not look like the cards that we know. (A wonderful game - used to keep me up till 5am in the morning... but it is not particularly esoteric.) As to whether the Scapini or the Visconti is "better", I really wouldn't know. Sorry!!! :) (In my mind, the only real Tarot is the Tarot of Marseille.)

punchinella	08 Jun 2004
Oh, uh, um, er, gasp (((((((((((((Diana)))))))))))))))) I was just going to gently mention (again) Tarot de Marseille, but . . . but . . . (she has left me speechless)

jmd	08 Jun 2004
One of the definite differences between the Visconti-Sforza decks and the Medieval Scapini is that the latter was designed as a Tarot deck, arising from the basis of the Marseille (on which all Tarot decks ultimately derive). The Visconti, whether or not used for purposes of divination (and it may very well also have been so used), has at least the Devil and the Tower cards added by modern artists. The Medieval Scapini has many elements which are quite beautifully designed, though find some of its pips somewhat too influenced by Waite/Colman Smith interpretative imagery - witness, for example, the eight and ten of Coins. Still, a beautiful deck indeed, and one worth using :)

Rusty Neon	09 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd The Medieval Scapini has many elements which are quite beautifully designed, though find some of its pips somewhat too influenced by Waite/Colman Smith interpretative imagery - witness, for example, the eight and ten of Coins. However, not all of the pip cards in the Medieval Scapini are influcenced by Rider-Waite imagery. Some of the Scapini pips are directly influenced by the Etteilla deck's divinatory keywords or illustrate non-RWS, non-GD, non-RWS, non-Etteilla divinatory meanings - I don't know the source of such meanings.

Dakota	09 Jun 2004
If you get the Medieval Scapini, I recommend also getting a strong reading lamp and a good magnifying glass, as many, many of the cards have wonderful but incredibly small scenes on them. It may not seem relevant, but one thing I really love about my Scapini is that the cards FEEL terrific, very different from my other decks. :D

tao51	02 Jul 2004
First, the Medieval Scapini is a beautiful deck with the feel of the Renaisance. I feel it is a valuable deck. The jury is still out on whether or not the Visconti-Sforza was used for divination. I highly value my Cary-Yale version of the Visconti. I have used it in many readings. It also is an eight-six card deck. It has male and female pages and knights. The priestess is Charity, the hierophant is Faith, and the star is Hope. These differences provide a unique reading. But...let me echo a few others--Tarot de Marsailles is the deck if you want deck from early traditions. It was my first deck--it has provided thousands of readings. I still use it even with my many other decks. --Tao

The visconti-sforza vs. scapini thread was originally posted on 07 Jun 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.