Why is it...?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 25 Jun 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Ravenswing	25 Jun 2004
... that so many beautiful decks that have come out recently are "goddess-based" ? I've gotten a few, but have traded them away. Not because I can't relate to them card by card-- (BTW I am one of those male creatures) but because the deck as a system seems to deal with the feminine with total dis-regard of the masculine. Please don't get me wrong, I would object as strongly to a "god based" deck that dis-regarded the feminine. As I see it, it is a balance-- the center pillar-- that we are attempting to attain. Well, I guess this brings up a question. Could someone tell me what they find attractive about the decks? What chord within you do they strike? This is something I don't understand. And I'd like to. fly well Raven

Nycelle	25 Jun 2004
I am interested in learning the mythology behind the goddess-bsed decks available, but I agree, they omit the masculine far too much. I don't know half enough about the related mythology to comment, but I notice the absence of men from the decks, as though they were airbrushed out, and it just feels inaccurate!

Melissa`	25 Jun 2004
I wish I could answer you, but I can't. I've also had a few goddess based decks and traded or sold them off. I did however keep the Goddess Oracle, mainly for the artwork these days. Someone in another thread (that is eluding me at the moment) mentioned that it would be great if the authors of the various Goddess decks would create a God deck of the same style. That way one would be able to put the two together and work with them that way. I think that is a great idea. So I can't help you here Raven.. :) I would like to hear others on why they are drawn to them though as well. ~ Melissa

ros	25 Jun 2004
The Goddess decks I have had, I let them go and don't even look at any decks of them now. There's just something about them that bothers me. It feels like a religion, I think, when there are so many Goddess's in one deck. Maybe also it's too far out there for me? Don't know.

Fulgour	25 Jun 2004
Since the first Tarots were created, La Papess has been the embodiment of the Spirit exemplified by the cards. She is the true Mother, call Her what you will. Science and Knowledge have been Her attributes from the beginning, and whether modern decks err in favour of the Goddess, we should still remember that organized religion has long suppressed Her.

purplelady	25 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ravenswing ... that so many beautiful decks that have come out recently are "goddess-based" ? Well, I guess this brings up a question. Could someone tell me what they find attractive about the decks? What chord within you do they strike? This is something I don't understand. And I'd like to. fly well Raven Go ahead , just throw tomatoes now and get it over with- I would guess that these Goddess based decks that exclude men are an attempt to "balance" the exclusion and subjugation of women for at least the past 2000 years. Just face it , the 3 major monotheistic religions of the world (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) are for men and male based. The jewish and Christian bible have a huge chapter based on pages and pages of MALE ancestry. Not one woman , mother, daughter, or wife, is mentioned. The father, the son, and the holy ghost are all male, need I go on? Just today I happened to catch a show on the history channel about the dead sea scrolls, which scholars and experts guess were written by the ancient essenes, (a jewish sect around the time of jesus). There were no women essenes because women were'nt even allowed in. Women were property mainly, or wives, that's it. And SO things are different now, yes, 2000 years later. However, those are still the main religions that people still follow. Their ideology is still deeply within us. So I think these decks are something that introduces a goddess based thought that Does differ from the main view of society and the world we live in and MAY harken back to a time that was way before the time of Judiasm, Christianity etc. Certainly I don't disclude men from my life, and I do think we need balance But................perhaps Goddess decks are an attempt to tip the balance , however slight affect they may have on mainstream society. (gingerly steps off soapbox) Well- you asked.

Fulgour	25 Jun 2004
Hear me in gentleness, and learn of me in roughness. I am she who cries out, and I am cast forth upon the face of the earth. I prepare the bread and my mind within. I am the knowledge of my name. I am the one who cries out, and I listen. http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/thunder.html from Nag Hammadi, of Sophia

Ravenswing	25 Jun 2004
Fulgour-- Much thanks for that link-- I've read pieces of the thunder, perfect mind. In fact, some of it is on borders of some deck I've had... It might be the elemental tarot-- but I'm not too sure. And the lectures sound real good-- I'm really curious as to Phillip K Dick's association with all this. He was one of my favorites a long, long time ago fly well Raven

le pendu	25 Jun 2004
Well said PurpleLady. I think that is exactly why they are here and precisely why they are popular. Personally, I would love to see a male god deck. robert

tmgrl2	25 Jun 2004
I just ordered a Goddess Deck after Sulis pulled a Goddess card for each of us in a Seekers' thread after we did our readings. It was such a nice "addition" or "shadow card" for the reading. terri

HOLMES	25 Jun 2004
the answer lies in the wave of consciousness that occurss in the mass thought form, example the angels wave, the spirit guide wave, the reiki wave, the kabbalah wave,, some waves last far longer then others and what happens is some people keep that wisdom and are that level when others move on to the latest thing, which is a bit differnt then just doing the latest fad. example one person who loves to play video games will go on to the latest video system but will keep their certain games they like to play regardless of what reviews and people say. that is the example of a person who learns the latest things yet keeps his or her way which makes them unique. all that being said i am certain the goddess conciousness that has arisen has been building for some time and is just in time for the age of the aquarius,, the star . which will bring about the godess consciouness ten fold.

Diana	26 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour Since the first Tarots were created, La Papess has been the embodiment of the Spirit exemplified by the cards. She is the true Mother, call Her what you will. Science and Knowledge have been Her attributes from the beginning, and whether modern decks err in favour of the Goddess, we should still remember that organized religion has long suppressed Her. My first comment here for Fulgour is off-topic. Forgive me, Ravenswing (and then I will forgive you about your TERRIBLE faux-pas in the Chat forum (after all, it was also about the Papess, right? :D :D ) Fulgour: The Papess is of course the Mother of all that is. But I would have thought that Science belongs to the Empress. I had a Goddess deck once. It was very nice. I think that most of these Goddess decks are off-shoots of feminism. It is important for Women to be handed back their dignity. But I think it would be awfully nice to get a balance between the gods and the female gods. (I dislike very much indeed the word "goddess" . I think the word "god" should englobe equally a male or a female god, just like the word "teacher" means a female or a male teacher. No-one talks about a "teacheress".)

Kiama	26 Jun 2004
*Kiama steps into the fray* I'm going to defend the idea of a God Tarot, now that Ravenswing has said he would object to that too. You see, I'm co-creating one right now, and it's oging along rather nicely, to the point where we're considering which publishers to send it to. Why do I think a God Tarot should not be objected to? Because, as you said Ravenswing, there are so many Goddess decks out there, that look at the Feminine Divine, and we feel that the Masculine Divine has been largely disregarded both in our society and in Tarot. So, the God Tarot we are creating is not disregarding Goddesses, but providing the much-needed balance for the Goddess decks. We see it has the other side of the coin to the Goddess decks that are already available, and as a tool to explore the Masculine side of Divinity through the myths and stories of Gods, heroes, Saints and legendary/historical figures. In order to gain balance within ourselves, we need to understand both Masculine and Feminine, Animus and Anima- the Goddess decks act as tools to explore the Feminine and Anima, but there is no tool for the Masculine. We hope a God Tarot will provide that. As far as I'm concerned I have no love for Goddess consciousness. What I think we need right now is God and Goddess consciousness- not Goddess being greater or more important than God, but God being on equal footing with Goddess, as co-creator, not as servant. Let's use the idea of a pendulum- we used to be very patriarchal. The pendulum swung to the left. Then we veered away from that, and we have gone towards Goddess to exclusion of God, and the pendulum has veered to the right. But the pendulum needs to be balanced. We need to bring back the God in balance with the Goddess. And a God Tarot, in addition to the Goddess Tarots already available, I think would help do that. Okay, ramble over. As you can guess, this is very close to my heart right now! :D Blessings, Kiama

hedgecub	26 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama As far as I'm concerned I have no love for Goddess consciousness. What I think we need right now is God and Goddess consciousness- not Goddess being greater or more important than God, but God being on equal footing with Goddess, as co-creator, not as servant. Definitely agreed. I'm starting to get sick of pagans who give lip service to masculine-feminine balance, then go on to focus almost exclusively on the Goddess, with the God there as a mere afterthought. I understand the need to swing the pendulum the other way, but I get the distinct feeling that it's swung too far. All of a sudden it's the Goddess everywhere, with nary a God in sight. This was fine when I was just starting out as a pagan, since I was raised Christian and really needed to get comfortable with the idea of the divine as female. But now that I'm happy with a divine mother figure, I'm starting to feel the lack of a divine father figure, and in contrast to the plethora of books and decks that would help me get in touch with the Goddess, there's precious little that can help me get in touch with the God, which is what I need right now. So go go go Kiama :D (Though it would be nice if you created a Goddess deck in the same style so a reader could use just the Goddess deck, just the God deck, or both in conjunction. Yep, it was me wot suggested that in the other thread that Melissa mentioned :)

SongDeva	26 Jun 2004
Could it be that goddess consciousness is just an attempt to reawaken what has been dead in yourself, as others posted before, on the road to balance? For me it would be hard to say, I've been raised with the masculine, and oh, I forgot the goddess? She's there too? Well, add her to my pack, and I'm on my way. Meaning, just because I'm now aware of the other side of the coin, not having been raised with her, I'm not gonna fully understand her or embody her along with the male until I've experienced her. This explains for me some of the saturation you've discussed. The other side of it is the loving beauty of the goddess energy when you experience it. It's like coming home because it is your other half, after all, in my belief system. Or better said, part of your whole. That said, I don't think even the "male" that we've been raised with is complete. It is the "intellectual male" that embodies logic and intellectualism, science in some respects, technology, etc. The "new male" that people speak of (which is perhaps the old male before the female principle was quashed) is, like women, intellectual and emotional, and hopefully is learning to feel free to express this side of himself. Men are lovely sweet creatures, who often feel constrained to be a certain way, just like women do. I think that exploring the goddess/feminine principle would be very valuable for men, as well as exploring a more healthy male principle. I look forward to seeing Kiama's deck. You can explore the two sides on your path towards balance, I believe. You don't have to take them both together always. In fact, by more in-depth study of each, perhaps we come to understand better and more fully how they fit together.

Fulgour	26 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Fulgour: The Papess is of course the Mother of all that is. But I would have thought that Science belongs to the Empress. When I first read that the attributions for La Papess were "Science, Wisdom, Knowledge, Education" it seemed like one of those Continental blunders, like creating The Hermit as "Prudence" to fulfil the missing virtue. But sometimes when I look up at the night sky, which for the last two years I have pondered both intellectually and intuitively, learning as much as I can while retaining, expanding even, my sense of wonder, I can feel the presence of the ancient astrologers, and realize what true science has always been: enlightenment. We are taught that modern astronomy learned the truth about the universe using the scientific method, as opposed the the ancient practice of superstitious worship. I think that thousands of years ago there was an even greater understanding of the true nature of our solar system, unfogged by the number crunching royal society boys. Predicting an eclipse years in advance, something any self-respecting Chaldean was capable of, required a written language to convey this knowledge, as a system to preserve it. Beneath all the imagery of the Tarot, there are the fundamental principles of an ancient library. The repository of the heavenly stars and the wisdom they contain, safe from the ravages of man. La Papess is keeping that book open, holding it safely. Le Pape and his friends would like to burn it.

le pendu	26 Jun 2004
Kiama, How great! If you're still working on it and need help or feedback, let me know. If you're near to publishing, count me in for the first round of sales. Everyone, In another forum, there is a discussion going on where several participants are noting that they have a hard time relating to the Emperor. I'm willing to bet that many of us have no trouble relating to the The Empress, but a lot of trouble relating to the Emperor. It's easy to imagine the Empress as Mother Nature, as a loving nurturing mother. When it comes to the Emperor, why don't we assign him an equal position? Instead of being "The Lord" in partnership with "The Lady", Father of Nature, loving nurturing father, we usually assign him the role of Authoritarian. This strikes me as an imbalance in the two cards. Granted, if the Emperor could/should be based on the Holy Roman Emperor of history, this makes sense, but then why does the Empress get off so easy? The way many of us our taught the Tarot, with her as nurturing and him as authoritarian, just seems wrong to me. Pick a system, but make sure they are equal partners. I'm willing to understand the concept that it is his structure that allows her fertility to flourish, but it seems so unfair to both of them. She is also structured. What is more structured than nature? What can be more harsh and unforgiving? He should also be fertile and creative. The generous, loving, protective, encouraging father. Then they are truly in balance. Personally, this is why I think a God deck would be helpful. For many of us, we were raised with YHWH as THE example of masculine divinity. While he is often described as authoritarian and judgmental, he is rarely described as nurturing and fertile. His love is very conditional. The Goddess decks have allowed many to see another side of the divine. We now have the choices of authoritarian God, and nurturing Goddess, which is what is often reflected in our understanding of the Emperor and Empress. By reclaiming the fertility gods, and all the other many aspects of the male Godhead that we have lost over the past 2000 years, we enable ourselves to see the masculine in many, many other guises, and allow ourselves new role models and guides. I hope I haven't said anything to offend anyone, that is not my intention. robert

Diana	30 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by le pendu I'm willing to bet that many of us have no trouble relating to the The Empress, but a lot of trouble relating to the Emperor. It's easy to imagine the Empress as Mother Nature, as a loving nurturing mother. Well, there are at least two of us on this thread who do not view the Empress as the Mother. And I bet I could find a few more as well.

Umbrae	30 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour ...Le Pape and his friends would like to burn it. Currently, aided by modern bias, we have slipped out of balance once again. Western culture attempted to bury the earth goddess with the power of the Male Sky God…Now we slip back to the Female Earth Goddess… But wait! Earth don’t work without Sunlight…warmth. Sky is just void without the form of the earth. It’s about balance… The Pope/Hierophant is NOT a negative card, nor are its associations. That would be an out-of-balance view…which is so prevalent in today’s marketing. Why so many Goddess based decks? Because we live in an out-of-balance culture that is kept that way by ‘extremism is the norm’, where hatred and negativity are perceived as good and positive… Personally I think that if you find the Emperor or the Hierophant as negative, or if you have trouble reconciling them to your life…you are out-of-balance. but what do I know…I’m just a guy. (Umbrae raises his hand) Diana…make that three.

Kiama	30 Jun 2004
During my Tarot Coffee Club evennings we have discussed peoples' views of some of the cards... And le pendu is right. The Tarot Coffee Club is mostly neo-Pagans, and nearly all of them, when we started speaking about the Emperor and Hierophant, saw those two cards as repressive, oppressive, authoritarian, and cold. It saddened me greatly, but gave myself and Nic (the housemate artist and co-creator of our deck) a great time trying to 'convert' them all back to loving those cards! They all loved the Empress and High Priestess, but when confronted with what I see as their counterparts, the Emperor and Hierophant, they just went cold and angry. :( There is definitely an imbalance here. Kiama

Diana	30 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama During my Tarot Coffee Club evennings we have discussed peoples' views of some of the cards... And le pendu is right. The Tarot Coffee Club is mostly neo-Pagans, and nearly all of them, when we started speaking about the Emperor and Hierophant, saw those two cards as repressive, oppressive, authoritarian, and cold. They should all go to a good psychoanalyst in that case. And leave Tarot for those who dare seek BEYOND the veil. It's probably not their fault though. Some of the depictions of the Hierophant and the Emperor (plus some of the other cards) are so ridiculous on some decks that if people do not know about the History of Tarot, they are lost. And some of the books that describe these cards are even MORE ridiculous. One has to go back to the Origin. Or else Tarot gets distorted and mixed up in all sorts of New Agey Neo Pagan hogwash. And one doesn't know anymore WHERE one stands. When one has figured out the beginning, one can move on. Why ask a child to read Shakespeare before it has learned the ABC? *Diana picks up her soap-box and hugs it tight."

Jewel-ry	30 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana *Diana picks up her soap-box and hugs it tight." I love your soapbox. Its good to have you back Diana! :)

le pendu	30 Jun 2004
Hi Diana, The origin? Where, when is that? You mean 15th Century Italy? (I doubt you do, hee hee). When I said: "Granted, if the Emperor could/should be based on the Holy Roman Emperor of history, this makes sense, but then why does the Empress get off so easy?" I was trying to say that if you are going to give the Emperor historical reference, you should do the same for the Empress. If you are going to give the Empress *loving mother/goddess* status (as so many non-historical decks seem to do), you should consider doing the same for the Emperor. I'll have to see if I can find your interpretation of the Emperor and Empress, I'm very curious, and learn so much from your viewpoints. best, robert

Diana	30 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by le pendu I'll have to see if I can find your interpretation of the Emperor and Empress Dear Robert Hanged Man: If you look at really old posts, some of my viewpoints may have changed because I have learned things since then. For instance, in my Tarot story for children which is somewhere on the Aeclectic web-site, the Empress does not please me at all. (In fact, even when I wrote it, it didn't please me. One should always listen to one's little voice.) Does it bother anyone else, the term "Goddess"? Why can't one use the word "God" for a male and a female deity? Isn't it more a neutral word? Why does one have to start making sexist linguistic divisions when one is talking about the Divine?

Ravenswing	30 Jun 2004
My most favorite depiction of the Emperor comes from the elemental tarot by caroline smith. It's called 'the father' and shows a very happy man with a child on his shoulders. Reminds me of me and my dad. and me and my son..... fly well Raven

Oni	01 Jul 2004
i am a woman, a lesbian woman at that, and a pagan and a witch also, and i dont like these goddess based decks i see out there. they tend to be too anti male, not really about goddesses per say just more female impowerment. my family never went to church, i no very little about christanity or any of the other major faithes out there so i can not speak of them. but like i feel that tarot is just like anything else, wither it is books or movies whatever, people want to put out certain ideas so they allow alot of what they want people to see. i think these godess decks r just really sterotypical. i have never owned one cause i have not seen one i remotely like. i love women, but i have always been close to my father and i feel men r just as equal to women. i m glad there r so many decks out there that foucus on all kinds of things. i personally dont like the goddess type decks but i repest people that do. i brought the tarot of the 3rd millienium wich is m y fav deck and everyone i know says the deck looks like images from the black death. i would kill, he he, to see a deck based on the historys greatest killers, u know like Jack the Ripper, Countess Bathory, Rasputen, Ide Imeng etc and people say that would be sick but whatever. I like perverse, bizzare, gory stuff. things that push the limits. just my 2 cents

Dark Inquisitor	01 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Does it bother anyone else, the term "Goddess"? Why can't one use the word "God" for a male and a female deity? Isn't it more a neutral word? Why does one have to start making sexist linguistic divisions when one is talking about the Divine? God is associated with thousands of years of the striclty male point of view , religious texts that have demonized women and all things female , and patriarchal society. So , it is really not a neutral word unless one is not aware of the history , or one does not care.

SongDeva	01 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Oni i am a woman, a lesbian woman at that, and a pagan and a witch also, and i dont like these goddess based decks i see out there. they tend to be too anti male, not really about goddesses per say just more female impowerment. I think female empowerment is a great idea, and can be done without being to the detriment of anyone else (i.e., males). I'll state in advance Oni that your post didn't come off as anti- or pro-female empowerment, I'm just making a general comment inspired by your post. For all who've commented here, a lot of people notice this anti-male sentiment in these decks, and I never do. I'm now thinking this is because I never read the books. Certainly reading something like that would strike a warning chord in me and interfere with my readings. Just as well I've taken the "look at the pretty pictures" road. I'm always interested to see what reactions some of these images strike in me. That said, apologies if I've missed it, but which decks are we talking about here? Edited to add: this would help me comment more specifically. Again, Kiama, can't wait to see yours. Sd

Dark Inquisitor	01 Jul 2004
[quote]Originally posted by Ravenswing [b]... that so many beautiful decks that have come out recently are "goddess-based" ? ****Because there are people who wish to learn aout, experience , and grow closer to the Goddess. "I've gotten a few, but have traded them away. Not because I can't relate to them card by card-- (BTW I am one of those male creatures) but because the deck as a system seems to deal with the feminine with total dis-regard of the masculine." ***This might be like asking why , for example , an African deck would be centered only on Africans , or a Faerie deck does not include the I Ching. "As I see it, it is a balance-- the center pillar-- that we are attempting to attain." ****There may be people who have had an over-kill of the god side of things and it can't be balanced yet without a full exploration of the other side. "Well, I guess this brings up a question. Could someone tell me what they find attractive about the decks? What chord within you do they strike? This is something I don't understand. And I'd like to." ****I buy goddess based decks because they help me to learn about that which has been suppressed , denied, and denigrated in most cultures. I see deeper into my self and the archetypal feminine. I can't really say how your journey as a man would identify with or integrate that. You may feel that some part has been excluded - a part that you can identify with that has meaning for you. But that is how many women feel about the male god centered culture that cuts off the feminine side. For those who express irritation with goddess based decks: No one is making anybody buy goddess based decks . Is there some reason they shouldn't exist?

Osher	01 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by purplelady Go ahead , just throw tomatoes now and get it over with- I would guess that these Goddess based decks that exclude men are an attempt to "balance" the exclusion and subjugation of women for at least the past 2000 years. Just face it , the 3 major monotheistic religions of the world (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) are for men and male based. The jewish and Christian bible have a huge chapter based on pages and pages of MALE ancestry. Not one woman , mother, daughter, or wife, is mentioned. The father, the son, and the holy ghost are all male, need I go on? Just today I happened to catch a show on the history channel about the dead sea scrolls, which scholars and experts guess were written by the ancient essenes, (a jewish sect around the time of jesus). There were no women essenes because women were'nt even allowed in. Women were property mainly, or wives, that's it. And SO things are different now, yes, 2000 years later. However, those are still the main religions that people still follow. Their ideology is still deeply within us. So I think these decks are something that introduces a goddess based thought that Does differ from the main view of society and the world we live in and MAY harken back to a time that was way before the time of Judiasm, Christianity etc. Certainly I don't disclude men from my life, and I do think we need balance But................perhaps Goddess decks are an attempt to tip the balance , however slight affect they may have on mainstream society. (gingerly steps off soapbox) Well- you asked. One of the interesting things that strikes me is that much of what is said is more modern interpretation rather than reality. Certainly in the Jewish tradition we have had female leaders ("Judges"), as well as female education and land ownership since the time of Moses 3500 years ago. However some things that might seem restrictive make sense if seen in ancient eyes. For example, women are not obligated to attend synagogue. The reason is that women were the home makers, looking after the children, and so might not have the time. Yet, today it is seen that men are being given something denied to women. Maybe religeon needs to adapt faster to changing situations? Still, women do have a promenent place in the Jewish tradition, it being her, for example who brings in the Sabbath, not the man. Of course more modern thinking has changed the balance. The Indian act of Sarti (? spelling?) where a wife throws herself onto her dead husbands pyre, so she is burnt alive only really emerged in the 1700's. Likewise, the full garb in Islam, that only allows the eyes to be seen is modern. Yet, can these be rebalanced by a goddess deck, whereby the woman is elevated? I would say no, because the past is static not dyanamic. However, there is nothing wrong with a deck that is biased, if that feels right to you. A deck is reflection of you. If you feel that a deck based on women is right for you, then it is right! On the other hand, I would also support a masculine deck (are there any?) (Just a side point, Rasputin was known as womanizer, but not a murderer?)

Kissa	04 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana They should all go to a good psychoanalyst in that case. And leave Tarot for those who dare seek BEYOND the veil. It's probably not their fault though. Some of the depictions of the Hierophant and the Emperor (plus some of the other cards) are so ridiculous on some decks that if people do not know about the History of Tarot, they are lost. And some of the books that describe these cards are even MORE ridiculous. One has to go back to the Origin. Or else Tarot gets distorted and mixed up in all sorts of New Agey Neo Pagan hogwash. And one doesn't know anymore WHERE one stands. When one has figured out the beginning, one can move on. Why ask a child to read Shakespeare before it has learned the ABC? *Diana picks up her soap-box and hugs it tight." OMG! Diana what is going on? You cannot expect everyone to have the same commitment and passion for Tarot as you do! Tarot is a tool but unlike a hammer which is designed for one purpose basically (ie smash your left thumb), there are many different ways of using tarot cards. Most of us know your major views about Tarot but you have to admit that, being so popular and in, Tarot is going to attract what you call non serious ppl. Regarding why Pagans have negative views about the Emperor and the Hierophant, i can easily understand that historically they have some reasons to do so. The Roman Church exterminated so many of the Old Religion believers and since Kings and Emperors were tightly ruling their countries with the clergy, they can be seen as guilty as the Church itself. Historically, though they were converted to Christianism, peasants still carried on with pagan rituals and celebrations. Christmas (Yule) and the Summer's Eve are one of those reminiscent feasts. If you look at it, Christianism was the upperclass religion and Paganism was the people's religion. Christians decided to celebrate in churches, between walls, they put themselves apart from nature that they considered as evil. Pagans celebrate in nature mostly. You say: "When one has figured out the beginning, one can move on." I personnaly think that the beginning is in Nature, in Nature stand the rules that we humans still apply in the third millenium of our history (the one we count begins when Christ was born), whether we admit it or not (one being that the winner gets it all). So can we erase all that and consider that Tarot appeared somewhere around the 15th century and study it from there? I think many of our problems today come from the fact that we sonsider ourselves so much above Nature and its creatures. I am neither a pagan nor a christian. I do not believe in charms or spells nor do i in the Bible or prayers. But i do feel closer from the Truth when i sit watching at the trees dancing in the wind than when i listen to a priest. And i definitely think that believes from the Old Religion are still buried in our souls. Funny you mention Shakespeare because my favourite piece is the Midsummer's Night's Dream, full of Paganism... ;) Kissa edited to correct a typo in "views"

Diana	04 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kissa OMG! Diana what is going on? You cannot expect everyone to have the same commitment and passion for Tarot as you do! Tarot is a tool but unlike a hammer which is designed for one purpose basically (ie smash your left thumb), there are many different ways of using tarot cards. Most of us know your major vies about Tarot but you have to admit that, being so popular and in, Tarot is going to attract what you call non serious ppl. I don't see what that has to do with my post. :confused: Unless you are trying to say that one cannot expect people who are not serious about the Tarot to understand it. Quote: Regarding why Pagans have negative views about the Emperor and the Hierophant, i can easily understand that historically they have some reasons to do so. The Roman Church exterminated so many of the Old Religion believers and since Kings and Emperors were tightly ruling their countries with the clergy, they can be seen as guilty as the Church itself. They also exterminated, destroyed, burnt and assassinated a whole culture - the whole of the culture of Occitania - from whence the Tarot most likely arose. You, being French, probably know that story only too well. The Pope/Emperor/Empress/ Devil.... all these are MERELY SYMBOLS. If one starts taking the images on the Tarot cards LITERALLY - one is not going to get very far at all. In fact, one will probably get nowhere very fast. God only knows how much I abhor the Roman Catholic Church, and how I loath anything to do with royalty and aristocracy. I'm the first to denounce their excesses (including those of today.) But as I said, the images on Tarot are SYMBOLIC. Quote: So can we erase all that and consider that Tarot appeared somewhere around the 15th century and study it from there? 15th Century? Who said that the Tarot is of the 15th Century? Oh, you mean those dry and boring historians? No, the Tarot pre-dates the 15th Century. And the ideas EMBODIED in the Tarot are even older.... much much much older.

The Why is it...? thread was originally posted on 25 Jun 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.