Hadar TdM arrives...first thought...What have I done?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Jul 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Satori	24 Jul 2004
The deck is here. It sits in front of me as I type, enigmatic, silent, and waiting. We have just had our first meeting. I noticed it was ordered in an interestingly foreign way. So I decide to impose the order I know upon it. Now, what is up with this deck and it's seeming inconsistencies. I didn't think I'd ever get the swords ordered. I was almost sweating over it. Are they swords or wands? Thats what I'm thinking staring at them, so I order the Wands or Batons as I kept thinking and then I see its really Bastons Why don't all the Sword cards have swords on them??? This was the heart of my confusion, what is the 2, what is the 3, why don't they all have swords???????? Ordering the swords was also hard because I just kept blanking out looking at them and wondering what number they were, and I got a tummy ache by the time I finished putting them in the order I think they go in. I'm still not sure what is what........but I just stuck them together finally because I was getting nauseous. The coins are about as dizzying as it gets, they look like they are gonna spin off the darn cards. Very distracting that. But I like them. I like the coins. They sure are spinning tho. Or is that just me? Do they spin for you? The wands didn't seem to offer any resistance, at least not yet. They are nicely balanced and easy to figure out and count. They played nice with me. What is up with that Ace of Cups? Beautiful card, I like it. Very ornate, and looks like a Rubrics cube of sorts if you ever had to get into the thing. If that is the heart of the Tarot, or the distillation of emotions it sure looks hard to get into. I don't know are those keyholes on the sides? Seems to be a lot going on with those Cups cards. I love the Mick Jagger fishies...lot of tongue right there Man. And the little emblem below them is interesting, don't know what to make of it except to say that it looks like fertilizer to me. Like as if it is under the entire suit of cups-fertilizing them. Why does the Coins page not have his name printed under his little feet? That was confusing, and really stops ya' cold, wondering what the problem was with printing that card. Like an unknown person, a stranger just wandered into the deck with a couple of coins...Must be the page, right? I figure he was adopted or something. I'm not sure how I feel with Kris Hadar's name on the 2 of Coins. Kind of like he's announcing himself, a little heraldic or bardic if you ask me...kind of like when a famous singer uses their own name in a song....and you know it is an ego thing....plus if I'm reading the cards and every time the 2 comes up I've got to read Hadar's name before I get to the image/meaning....that is perhaps going to be distracting. Where's the Egyptian Shpinx on the Wheel? I thought there was going to be a Sphynx...but those little mean monkey dudes are scary. I think maybe they are Gryphons? They look very tired to me. But they are well armed little buggers, kinda devilish but almost impotent. I love the Sun card. I chuckle whenever I look at Le Pape, the two monk's heads look so weird and doughnutty to me. The mooning Fool is interesting...the ultimate butt sniffing dog right there is also in need of major training, hope his nails are cut. The Fool doesn't seem to mind tho. Where only half his hat is showing I'm thinking half-wit... There sure are lots of people on that Lover card. The Hermit is a big guy isn't he? Seems big to me, I like his face the best of anyone in the deck, he is trying very hard to reassure me that all is well with all of them.... The Death card is very scary. Seems to mean business. This looks very much like death and not much like transformation... The Diable is cute, isn't she? Very boy-girl/girl-boyish. She-he sure is watching us isn't she-he. Became aware of some strange smells looking at that card.. Tower of God was a favorite. Seems like a happy card. The floating dudes are smiling and the candy falling from the sky looks tasty...what are those balls? Even the arrow and the fire looks happy. What is the arrow doing-pointing up, to show the upward energy? The release... The guy behind the Tower looks like he is gonna pick that weed...my kind of guy. The Golden Light coming out of the Papesse's crown is interesting. Well, thats all for now. First impressions. One more thing...I like it. So far, it is weird enough that I like it. This is a freaky deck.

Moongold	24 Jul 2004
Wow, elf.........What a great response. I am really looking forward to your first reading with this deck. Quote: Originally posted by elf I didn't think I'd ever get the swords ordered. I was almost sweating over it. Are they swords or wands? Thats what I'm thinking staring at them, so I order the Wands or Batons as I kept thinking and then I see its really Bastons I had the same response as this. In fact I read them as Batons (psst......that's the word here :) ) Roll on the impressions :D

Le_Corsair	25 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by elf I didn't think I'd ever get the swords ordered. I was almost sweating over it. Are they swords or wands? Thats what I'm thinking staring at them, so I order the Wands or Batons as I kept thinking and then I see its really Bastons Why don't all the Sword cards have swords on them??? This was the heart of my confusion, what is the 2, what is the 3, why don't they all have swords???????? Ordering the swords was also hard because I just kept blanking out looking at them and wondering what number they were, and I got a tummy ache by the time I finished putting them in the order I think they go in. I'm still not sure what is what........but I just stuck them together finally because I was getting nauseous. There's a simple trick to distinguishing Swords from Bastons: in cards that look similar, the Swords are curved, and the Bastons are straight. :) Bob :THERM

Alrisha	25 Jul 2004
my hadar deck has also arrived along with the large swiss thoth deck. let's stick to the hadar. i opened it, looked at each card briefly then just like what u've done, tried to put the cards in order by suits. i too had a little problem seperating bastons from swords. then i noticed the curves and things became easier. le fool. i wonder if the fool is wearing beige pants under the blue ones or is that really his flesh. hmm what a nice doggie...he's scratching the fool's butt. look at his little claws, and yes it seems like he's sniffing the fool's butt too. le bastelevr. i like this card. he looks like a kid having fun w/ his toys and play-doh (the little ball thingy). l'amovrevx. 3 people and a cupid. the man and the woman on the right look like a couple to me. the woman w/ blue hair...i m guessing she's the girl's mom and the mom's telling the man to treat his girl nicely. the girl has a shy look on her face. "I chuckle whenever I look at Le Pape, the two monk's heads look so weird and doughnutty to me." hahaha la rove de fortune. the image reminds me of hamsters running on an exercise wheel. the little creature on the left(beige one) looks so tired. could it be that it has been running for so long without knowing why? death. this card gives me the creep...it's the most scary death card i've seen so far. and why is there no title at the bottom of the card? la maison diev. the card doesn't look chaotic in this deck unlike some other decks. it actually looks a bit festive and carnival like. the 2 people are reaching out for the weed w/ a smile on their face. "One more thing...I like it. So far, it is weird enough that I like it. This is a freaky deck." i feel the same way. =D elf, how do u plan on studying the TdM? i think i'll just start a journal with the majors. i have no idea what i m gonna do with the minors. btw...as i've mentioned earlier, i also have the thoth tarot, and the secret tarot will be arrived shortly. these 3 decks are actually based on different systems and i don't know which one i should begin my study with. are u gonna stick w/ the TdM for now? chrissy

Satori	25 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Le_Corsair the Swords are curved, and the Bastons are straight. :) Bob :THERM Yes, I figured that out, thanks Bob. But it was the order that was confusing me, so I ended up just counting the sword, the straight actual sword as one then the other curved swords from there....and if there was not a real sword then just the curved ones and ordered it from there. But it was a very interesting experience. I seem to get very physical reactions from the imagery, as well as the impressions. Thanks Moongold. It was an interesting first session. I'm not sure how a reading will go...baby steps right? Alrisha, I've never studied Tarot very methodically. So, it will be interesting to see how things go with this deck. I'll follow the deck's lead I think.

le pendu	25 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by elf They look very tired to me. But they are well armed little buggers, kinda devilish but almost impotent. My Dear Elf, Boy did you use an interesting word. Look up the etymology of "bugger".. for some it is an interesting coincidence! Cheers darling, robert

Satori	25 Jul 2004
bugger - "sodomite," 1555, earlier "heretic" (1340), from M.L. Bulgarus "a Bulgarian" (see Bulgaria), so called from Catholic bigoted notions of the sex lives of Eastern Orthodox Christians or of the sect of heretics that was prominent there 11c. Ummmm.....OOPS. Had no idea. How is that a coincidence....???

le pendu	25 Jul 2004
Hi Elf! I'm still learning about it all.. but the gist is that "bugger" is etymologically connected to the "Bogomils", the heretic group connected to Bulgaria around 1110CE. Sodomy is one of the "crimes" the group was accused of and burned for. This group is connected to the Cathers of the Languedoc. Some people believe that the Tarot, and particularly the Tarot de Marseille, is connected to the secret teachings of the Cathars, and therefore, the Bogomiles of Bulgaria. http://www.briancreese.co.uk/cathars.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/9892/bhhisto.html So indeed "bugger" seems to be connected to the word for heretic. "Faggot" seems to be connected to the small pieces of wood used to light the fire for burning heretics and homosexuals... calling someone a "bugger" is like calling them a heretic, and calling them "faggot" is like calling them a piece of kindling... stuff used to start a fire to burn heretics alive. "Got a fag?", in asking for a cigarette, is asking for a small piece of burning wood.

Satori	25 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by le pendu Hi Elf! I'm still learning about it all.. but the gist is that "bugger" is etymologically connected to the "Bogomils", the heretic group connected to Bulgaria around 1110CE. Sodomy is one of the "crimes" the group was accused of and burned for. This group is connected to the Cathers of the Languedoc. Some people believe that the Tarot, and particularly the Tarot de Marseille, is connected to the secret teachings of the Cathars, and therefore, the Bogomiles of Bulgaria. http://www.briancreese.co.uk/cathars.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/9892/bhhisto.html So indeed "bugger" seems to be connected to the word for heretic. "Faggot" seems to be connected to the small pieces of wood used to light the fire for burning heretics and homosexuals... calling someone a "bugger" is like calling them a heretic, and calling them "faggot" is like calling them a piece of kindling... stuff used to start a fire to burn heretics alive. "Got a fag?", in asking for a cigarette, is asking for a small piece of burning wood. Omigosh. So, those critters are like the minions of the Cathars if you go with the idea that the Cathars are the Framers of the Tarot! Well, shiver me timbers, what a truly cosmic joke on me! le pendu, I bow to the god in ye, and thank ye for the sharing of your brain cells with me. Namaste. So consider if you will: What if the light in the Hermit's lamp is a bit of fire from the burning of the heretics, and the Hermit carries it to keep the knowledge alive and to remind him of how foolish it is to try to live in a way that can reduce you to a cinder. So, he hides himself away out of protection. But he just can't bare to keep this knowledge hidden, so he comes out sometimes with his lamp and holds it up for all of us to see and wonder about, because of his love for the very people who would burn him. I'm always wondering about the light in the Hermit's lamp. Maybe I need to read up on it a bit..... **FYI**:I was just about to post to the thread that I've done my first reading with the TdM and am posting it in the Tarot Readings section of the forum. Probably you will all be bored to tears with it however Moongold expressed interest so I will post it on behalf of marvelous Moongold. After posting, I will visit the links you so graciously provide for me.

firemaiden	25 Jul 2004
So..., getting back to the subject of the "curved swords" - these reflect the Arabic origin of the playing cards from which the tarot game evolved. The suit might properly be called the suit of scimitars - Andy writes on the website : Andy's playing cards Quote: northern Swords are curved like sabres, though probably the real origin of this shape is the Arabic scimitar (single-sided sword with a wide curved blade), since these patterns are very likely to be a development of the original cards brought into Italy and Spain by the Arabs, You may enjoy comparing the Marseille suit depictions with those of the Mamluk cards

Rusty Neon	25 Jul 2004
Continuing from firemaiden on the scimitars ... The lozenge-shaped area created by the scimitars is very fruitful for symbolism. It can represent a womb, a mandorla (like in the World card), or alchemy's Philosophical Egg. "It is clear from many texts that the egg means the vas hermeticum, the hermetically-sealed vase or vessel in which the Stone (Lapis) incubates like an embryo in the womb: note that metals in primitive animistic thought were believed to incubate in the womb of Mother Earth." Mark Haeffner, Dictionary of Alchemy, p. 83

Moongold	25 Jul 2004
Dearest elf ~ Here is my first reading with the Conver Marseilles which I really did not like very much at the time. I didn't really use it again for months afterwards. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18438&highlight=conver+first+reading I wanted a Marseilles but didn't really like them at all. And then there were other discussions here and I found the Fournier, which I really love and use the most despite having a Hadar and a Conver. I won't show the post where I read the Swords as Batons and then complained because they didn't look at all like swords. If you play with the Marseilles, do it because you want to not because you think you ought to. A great thing to do first is to lay all the Court cards out together. You may see how they chatter to each other. And then perhaps compare all the various kings and queens etc. It is a little like looking in at 16th Century soap opera or historical novel. And then maybe do a few casual readings with the Majors and relate them to each other. I pretended that they were having conversations. I had the Fool wallking off a cliff as well but convention doesn't have him doing that apparently. Don't worry too much about this kind of "error" if you make it (like me. He"s pretty close to the edge of a path which could be at the top of a cliff and his rear end is being chewed by a nastly little creature and he isn't really looking where he is going ....... so ANYTHING could happen, including walking off the path/cliff. What I'm trying to say is HAVE FUN. The common people of the 16th century would want you to and also the other people here on the same learning curve as you. :)

Satori	26 Jul 2004
Thanks Moongold. You know, no one ever told me to read the TdM, but it just called to me. The more I resisted the idea, the more I wanted to get it and play with it. I just felt that until I tried it I woudln't know if there was anything to all the hype. But really, if these decks survived and people can still read them even with all of the unknowns, then there must be something to it, right? I'm falling asleep and need my beloved bed...thanks Moongold, for the ideas. I think they are great and will do conversations like you mentioned, goodness knows I love to chat!

Moongold	26 Jul 2004
Good. I dreamed about the Marseilles the other night. Something to do with Tauni's thread about going underground to hold on to Tarot in the face of oppression. It is a fascinating deck, and there is so much in it. Another really helpful l exercise is to compare all the different Kings, Queens, Knights and Pages. You learn an immense amount that way. I'll stop now. Have fun and hope you don't dream about the Marseilles :)

laura_borealis	26 Jul 2004
I dreamed about it, last night... in my dream some of the pips had people on them, and I thought "Oops, Diana isn't going to like this." :D

Satori	26 Jul 2004
Moongold, I just read your reading and wanted to thank you for sharing it with me. 10 of swords huh? What is it like for you when you go back to it and read it a year or more later? I read Rusty's post to this thread about the place inside the swords being like a womb and remembered how protective it felt to me last night looking at my 4 of Swords. And then reading my post I did write womb, and was amazed! So I've decided to heed Umbrae's advice and not study the cards for now, or visit the Marseille forums for a bit, and just see what comes up.

The Hadar TdM arrives...first thought...What have I done? thread was originally posted on 24 Jul 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.