Er - is this a 1927 Oswald Wirth or am I dreaming?
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 30 Sep 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| baba-prague |
30 Sep 2004 |
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I have just bought an Oswald Wirth deck in an antique shop here. It was apparently taken out of someone's collection and had only just come in (and the shop specialises in textiles and only had it as they thought it was interestingly Art Nouveau). It is this deck (exactly, in every detail):
http://www.chez.com/alkast/wirth_1927.html
It seems to be lithography NOT engraving (as stated in Kaplan for the 1927 deck - but he could be wrong?), and it has the gold ink applied afterwards - NOT exactly painted by hand as Kaplan says. We think it is a kind of hand technique but it seems more as though it was done with something like a stencil.
It is NOT the US Games edition - in fact, really it's very different indeed! (Diana will be pleased I said this I think ;-) )
The deck is in perfect condition because it has been stuck (very well) on to a sort of composite backing - like early wood composite or something - brown in colour. This makes the deck stiff but has also protected and preserved it. I'm not sure that the backing is original.
After all the discussion here earlier of the Wirth deck, I am wondering, is this (could it possibly be????) one of the 1927 decks. I can hardly believe it could be - surely not - so was there some later accurate reproduction done in old lithography technique?
I am trying to scan some images right now, but of course the scanner is playing up (brilliant timing) so it may take me half an hour. I will also photograph to show you the scale and the odd backing.
Oh - I shoujd say that there was a hand-drawn (by a famous Czech painter) majors deck and a weird very early Egyptian minors-only (odd) deck also - apparently all from the same house in Prague. They were brought in by an elderly art professor, so the lady who runs the shop said. She is sweet and I believe her about the source. I didn't buy the others - ran out of money!
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| baba-prague |
30 Sep 2004 |
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Here is the link:
http://www.tarotofprague.com/images/oswald-wirth.jpg
HUGE file as you need to be able to see the printing structure. The gold ink (which is softly shiny, not like bright gold) can't really be scanned properly. In fact, the colours are bright and the gilding is still in fine condition.
Even if it isn't the original (but I think whatever it is, it's pretty old), isn't it a lovely deck?
Edited to add. Sorry to begin with Death, The Devil and The Moon, but they happen to be three of the most interesting cards.
More to follow.
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| Diana |
30 Sep 2004 |
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Wow.
I don't know what you've found, Karen. But I have a feeling you have found something very special there. I wish I could tell you more, but I can't.
The colours are amazing. I would love to see this deck with my own eyes.
Treasure it.
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| baba-prague |
30 Sep 2004 |
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The colours are much more wonderful in person. The red is very soft and the blue is that beautiful slate blue colour.
As Alex says, it has that "old" smell that is really evocative.
I wish I knew more about the household that it came from.
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| baba-prague |
30 Sep 2004 |
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Do you think it's possible that someone cut these out of the original book and added the gold ink? It seems a bit unlikely (the gold is very accurately done) but maybe it's one possible explanation?
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| Diana |
30 Sep 2004 |
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Originally posted by baba-prague
The colours are much more wonderful in person. The red is very soft and the blue is that beautiful slate blue colour.
It's the red that struck me. It's much more "brownish" than in the Editions de l'Aigle edition, and the gold is less harsh too.
I am so happy for you.
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| Cerulean |
30 Sep 2004 |
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But I have to check.
There was a link to Daniel Onofrey, a bookseller in France and that is where I got a beautiful set of the old Hoftampspiel cards in a wooden box with text by Dummett et al...it's hard to get that collectors set.
Sometimes when I browse the net for different tarot sets, I come across unusual editions.
Is there any indication of French origins? I know that sounds silly, but I'll check my Daniel Onofrey old links after work or after a quick family trip this weekend.
Sounds gorgeous and thanks for sharing. Congradulations!
Regards
Cerulean
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| Moonbow* |
30 Sep 2004 |
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I have no idea what I am looking at in those scans but what a fabulous and beautiful deck. So detailed and colourful. You have a real treasure there.
Maybe I should look around our antique shops!
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| baba-prague |
30 Sep 2004 |
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Diana,
Don't go too much by the scans for colour. I did the scans quite fast so I haven't spent long balancing the colours - plus you know how inaccurate monitors can be. The red is very soft, but it isn't really brownish - it's quite a clear true red, but not scarlet. It doesn't glare if you know what I mean.
Cerulean,
I only wish there was some indication of where these came from. Because of the weird backing there is no clue there either. The printing technique is old - Alex says they have to have a fair amount of age. Also, one of the deck sthey were with - and apparently came with - was a hand-drawn one by a man who was working here in the early years of the 20th century (i.e. it was really very old). But that doesn't tell us much necessarily.
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| WolfSpirit |
30 Sep 2004 |
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What a beautiful deck, what lovely colours.
What a find ! Those little antiques shops can have real treasures in them. What a great way to find a deck, beats buying decks on ebay any time :)
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| fyreflye |
30 Sep 2004 |
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It certainly looks like the Wirth samples you linkd to. It's a shame the samples don't include the card backs. Why don't you post a link to this down in the History & Iconography section? The rare deck experts and collectors don't often come slumming up here ;)
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| Ace |
30 Sep 2004 |
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Originally posted by baba-prague
and another three - together with the backing:
http://www.tarotofprague.com/images/oswald-wirth3.jpg
I am NOT an authority, but I thought the Wirth had a crocodile below the Fool with it's mouth open waiting.... SO maybe this is an altered copy somehow.
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| Tarot Sparrow |
30 Sep 2004 |
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Congrats baba, that is a beautiful deck! So nostalgic.
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| Cerulean |
01 Oct 2004 |
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The open mouth of the Croc is the 1911 Oswald Wirth and 1929 Knapp (known now as Knapp-Hall) according to the scans in the History of the Occult Tarot by Dummett and Decker. The scans Baba posted from the French website do show the distant and distinct crocodile difference...
I also checked the Daniel Onofrey online tarot inventory in France, no Oswald Wirth reprints...
Baba-Prague's find is gorgeous and inspired me to look at my Dummett and Decker book again. Of course my weekly night class on "Spiritual Radicals of the 20th Century" used the writings of Krishnamurti and Star of the East circa 1895-1970s to highlight some interesting cross-cultural correspondences from England/India and the old Theosophistical Society crowd emerged...what a turn of the 20th-century millenium story!
Oh Baba-Prague, if you were either dreaming or awake, it's a gorgeous and lovely treasure either way...I hope it will have a happy home with you for a long, long time.
Best wishes,
Cerulean
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| Ilex |
01 Oct 2004 |
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...A lovely deck Baba! You are so lucky to have found it!
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| Vilyariel |
01 Oct 2004 |
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I'm no expert on paper or printing or reproducing tarot decks..
if it isn't an original, it could be a 40's or 50's reproduction... just the way the ink has worn off of parts of the card, and the level of colour fade.
original or not, it is certainly a very nice looking deck!
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| baba-prague |
01 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Ace
I am NOT an authority, but I thought the Wirth had a crocodile below the Fool with it's mouth open waiting.... SO maybe this is an altered copy somehow.
I'm not an authority either, but the 1927 deck (link on my first post) did not have a crocodile. The 1889 and the 1927 deck were different. This is definitely NOT a 1889-desgned deck. It does seem to be identical to the 1927 one.
Edited to add. The whole sequence of Wirth decks seems quite complex and confusing though!
______
Edited again to add. No, I am wrong about this - see Cerulean's posts below!
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| baba-prague |
01 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Vilyariel
I'm no expert on paper or printing or reproducing tarot decks..
if it isn't an original, it could be a 40's or 50's reproduction... just the way the ink has worn off of parts of the card, and the level of colour fade.
original or not, it is certainly a very nice looking deck!
Yes, I think it could be 40s or 50s in theory. It cetainly isn't later (or if it is, it would be very odd to use old technology). What is interesting is to know if there were any later reprints (i.e. before the much later one in the 1960s). I do wonder if this deck started life as illustrations from the book that were cut out. Does anyone know if the 1927 book illustrations were in full colour?
Oh - and in answer to Cerulean, yes, I hope the deck will be happy in the studio here. I certainly will keep it - it was such a stroke of luck really (while I was going to the bank to get out some money to pay for it, apparently a man came rushing in desperate to buy it, but the lady kept it for me - that was very fortunate, and also kind of her). So I think the deck is meant to stay here!
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| Cerulean |
01 Oct 2004 |
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I did see the Croc in the Fool in the first link you posted, to the far lower right, he's just a little croc-headed shaped log with a sinister eye...I enlarged the image as the site allows for that 'enlarging'. The croc has not a mouth open, as we can only see the submerged head.
Just to correct my earlier post in case my information was not clear.
Regards,
Cerulean
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| baba-prague |
01 Oct 2004 |
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Croc? Sorry, you're right, it is there, very tiny. I obviously should have looked a bit better. It looks like a tuft of grass but yes, you're correct, it is a little crocodile. Well, then I am not right about this difference between the original deck and the 1927 one. But I think that this one I have differs in other ways too from the very early one and is unlikely to be earlier than 1927 at the very earliest (I think the very first one was hand-drawn?)
If I get a chance later I will scan the crocodile just for other people's interest.
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| baba-prague |
01 Oct 2004 |
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Thanks Lee, it's enormously helpful. I did read it at the time, but of course now re-read it with more attention.
This deck is definitely identical to the 1927 one. For example, the yin-yang symbol is there on the High Priestess's book. It has the shiny gold (which is actually very attractive as it's a soft shine and a bronze-gold kind of colour).
But I just cannot bring myself to believe that it is one of "the" 1927 ones as they were just so rare. Of course it's possible - it was together with two other very rare tarots - one hand-drawn (it really was, we checked with a magnifying glass) by the man who decorated the National Theatre here. But do you know if there is some other source it could have come from? I did wonder if someone had cut out the pictures from the book, but by the sound of the way you describe the book images in your thread, that's not likely.
If I could, I would prise off the backing, but it's been there a long time (though I doubt that it's original) and it could do damage.
If more scans are of use just let me know. I can also measure it - it's quite large, roughly the size and shape of a LS deck. The thing that does not add up though is that Alex says that this has a very odd print structure - it is partly printed (you can see the fairly coarse "dot" structure in the large scan) but partly has had ink applied over the top - we think the gold was added by stencil. This is all a little unusual - but it doesn't quite match with the Kaplan description.
I wish I was more of an expert - or could show the deck "in person" to someone who is.
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| baba-prague |
01 Oct 2004 |
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This could be a copy of the D'Aigle deck, if that is a really good reproduction done with an old-fashioned technique. Do you know what the D'Aigle feels like? How long has it been around? Are the colours a lot softer than those shown? Also, does it have white borders? On one of the shop sites that hows it, it seems to, but on this site it doesn't.
My deck seems almost identical, witha few tiny details of colour that are different.
http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/tarot/bl_wirth.htm
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| Vilyariel |
01 Oct 2004 |
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Yeah, it looks very similar...but something about it just isnt right...its like they've perfected it or something...the colours are too bright [true, it could have been locked away out of all direct light, etc], but the gold just isnt the same, and it's lined up alot more than yours, baba.
It is probable that it is the same as the deck you linked... if it's been used it would show the wear and turn out like it has...
but then, you mentioned that a man was 'rushing in, desperate to buy it,'. to me, that suggests to that maybe this guy knew the edition it was, and the abosolute rarity of it.
I hope for your sake, that it is indeed the 1927 edition :D Even if it is a later reproduction, the quality of it, and the fact that it's got the nice gold gilding on it definately outweigh some of the decks that are being mass produced today.
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| Cerulean |
01 Oct 2004 |
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One is a Russian knock off that is on Sasha's site (his scans) and the other is the Elizabeth Haich book reprint. I think yours is much better than my inexpensive Haich color-copy style scans...
Someday I'll find the French reprint of the deck and cheerfully be comparing to these scans. I hope that someday will also have me with a reprinted 1980's PRS Knapp Hall as well!
Gorgeous and fun!
Cerulean
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| Diana |
01 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by baba-prague
This could be a copy of the D'Aigle deck, if that is a really good reproduction done with an old-fashioned technique. Do you know what the D'Aigle feels like? How long has it been around? Are the colours a lot softer than those shown? Also, does it have white borders? On one of the shop sites that hows it, it seems to, but on this site it doesn't.
I doubt you have an Editions de l'Aigle edition. Their first edition was in 1997.
Karen, I almost feel like asking you to send me by registered letter just ONE of the cards... but it would be HORRIBLE if it got lost, either on the way to me or on the way back to you.
I think a letter to the Editions de l'Aigle would be in order here. They are rather a mysterious publishing house and it would be interesting to get their input. The letter must be written in French. I don't have time to compose a letter, but if anyone wants to write it in English, I will be happy to translate it.
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| baba-prague |
02 Oct 2004 |
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Well, I am half-thinking of buying the D'Aigle just to compare (it might be nice to have a copy in any case). My deck has much more faded colours than the scans of the D'Aigle - but then are those scans accurate? - the colours are still good, but not so deep.
The problem with being confronted with three seemingly very rare decks in a little shop in Prague is that you end up wondering if it can be true. I didn't buy either of the other decks, although if they were what they were supposed to be they were also extreme rarities (an "Egyptian" deck from the 1920s, and a rather erotic hand-drawn deck by a famous artist - you know, you just have to wonder if they can be real?)
My deck appears to have tiny differences from the D'Aigle (my Fool's shows are trimmed in yellow, not red) but again, going by scans how can you tell really?
We've decided to take it to the printers when we can, as they have a very high-powered magnifying glass and we can see the print structure properly.
Currently the deck is housed in a very wonderful bag that M-Press made for us, so it is safe and protected - thanks M-press!
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| xviiirkna |
11 Oct 2004 |
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Hi Karen,
I've been working with Ron Decker on a Tarot project and he came over this weekend so that we could go over some things...so I took the opportunity to show him the scans of your cards.
After comparing them to the (black & white) images of the cards in Kaplan, Vol. III - and other links that had been provided on the forum here to online examples, he's pretty confident that you indeed have the 1926 printing of Wirth's Tarot.
The Editions de l'Aigle version seems to be remarkably faithful to the 1926 deck, but was printed so recently and I believe for this fact you have already ruled that one out of possibility. The 1926 cards would not have been printed on a 'cardstock' weight of paper - which is probably why someone chose to mount them to the heavier composite backing as they did.
There is a German edition, printed in the 1970's which Ron personally has a copy - the cards were included with the copy of Wirth's book as a few other editions have also done. Although this particular edition includes the Art Nouveau styled borders, the colors are not as strong and vibrant as your deck appears to be. Also the gold is more of a dull brownish color rather than stenciled on with metallic ink. There are B&W plates of this deck in Kaplan, Vol. III as well, I don't have the book so I can't refer you to the exact page. Of course you can't tell much to compare the book images to your scans, but we did find noticable difference in the shading of the clouds on the Judgement card between the 1926 and the German edition - the scan you provided for this card matches the shading found in the 1926 deck.
You can rule out other editions (ie: Georg Alexander & Tchou) as they don't have the fancy borders and there is quite diverse change to the coloration and/or imagery.
Ron does have the 1889 cards as well as many of the later editions, with the exception of 1926...and he was thrilled to hear the story of how you happened upon them in a little antique shop. He also said that you shouldn't worry about having the cards taken off the backing unless there is concern that the glue used to attach them might be causing damage to the actual card image - then of course you'd want to have someone familiar with archival restoration process do the job.
It is a beautiful deck - makes you wonder how anybody could so such a crude hack job on it and still think they were being faithful to any of Wirth's original versions.
Blessings,
Sally Anne
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| baba-prague |
12 Oct 2004 |
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Many thanks for this. It IS thrilling. I've become more and more convinced that this deck is one of the 1926 (0r 1927? it seems to be referred to as both dates). Prague is an odd place because it was in some ways so cut off for years. Things were simply put away in attics for years and only began to emerge again in the last decade. The deck has a real beauty when you hold it, a very lovely thing. I had only really looked at the US Games version before, and had dismissed the deck as something that didn't really attract me. Now that I see it the way it was meant to be, it's very beautiful.
I think the explanation about the backing makes a lot of sense. It has been well done - very carefully placed on the backing - so we will leave it there. It gives the cards an odd and quite nice feel, as the backing is almost like thin wood.
I am awfully tempted now to go back to buy the hand-drawn deck she had (weirdly missing The Fool though) as I think that was from around 1910. It was a lot of money by our standards though. Both decks do feel like a part of the history of esotericism in Prague. I really would like to know more about whose house these came from as there was obviously a collection.
Amazing really.
By the way, if Ron would like more scans I'll be happy to send them. I don't think I'll be parting with this deck though. I feel in some ways it should stay in Prague now.
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| xviiirkna |
12 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by baba-prague
Many thanks for this. It IS thrilling. I've become more and more convinced that this deck is one of the 1926 (0r 1927? it seems to be referred to as both dates).
1926 is the date for the cards and his book was published a year later in 1927.
It would be hard not to be tempted by the other older decks, especially the one you said was hand drawn. But I'd say that you definitely made a great choice with the deck you now have!
If you do more scans, I'll be glad to pass them along to Ron. I'm sure he'd love to see more of the cards. You could always do up a reference page with the cards somewhere on your site, so there would be nice clear scans of them for all to enjoy and study.
I think we should rally up a petition to USGames to put that ugly rendition it tries to pass off as 'original Wirth' out if it's (or rather OUR) misery...and do a true historical reprint. Since there are only 22 cards, perhaps they could find a way to package BOTH the 1889 and the 1926 versions together! (o.k., so I'm dreaming more than just a little bit, but wouldn't it be nice!) :D
Blessings,
Sally Anne
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| Vilyariel |
12 Oct 2004 |
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yes, thats really a form of false advertisement! You really should go ahead with the petition. if you posted it around forums like this, i am sure you would get alot of support...and hey, US Games might'nt even be aware that the copy they are producing isn't what they think it is.
if they did a _proper_ historical reprint, it's also a form of preservation.
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| baba-prague |
12 Oct 2004 |
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It's interesting. I did read the earlier thread here on the Wirth and didn't quite see why there was such animosity towards the US Games deck. But now I understand this much better. This deck has - in fact - a certain delicacy that is hard to describe. I's something that seems to be totally lost in the US Games version.
It sounds like a quibble - but in fact it's not, the delicacy of colour and the way the inks are laid down is a very important part of the power of the imagery, and once the images are somewhat coarsened, the power seems to vanish.
Anyway, just my reaction to this. But if the French reproduction is so good, do we really need a US Games one too? I don't think the French deck is so hugely expensive?
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| Lee |
12 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by baba-prague
But if the French reproduction is so good, do we really need a US Games one too? I don't think the French deck is so hugely expensive? Actually the Editions de l'Aigle edition is not easy for folks in the U.S. to obtain, as far as I know. I bought it from the Somerville site, but I don't think they even carry it anymore. So a USGames edition would certainly make it easier for Americans.
-- Lee
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| baba-prague |
13 Oct 2004 |
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Oh, I see what you mean. I think in Europe we forget that some decks don't really get across the Atlantic. I would consider doing a reproduction of the deck myself, but honestly, I don't think there would be enough interest - it would really be rather specialised (and the de l'Aigle sounds pretty good).
The shops here are extraordinary. We've just been in a bookshop looking at jaw-dropping original 17th and 18th century book plates. Very beautiful and inspiring - and unaffordable!
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| Vilyariel |
13 Oct 2004 |
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i have to say, this whole investigation into you deck has been really interesting, baba!
i've been glued to this thread, it's better than any reality tv shows!
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| baba-prague |
14 Oct 2004 |
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I'm still a bit stunned to be honest. I look at the cards and can't quite believe that we found them. Tomorrow we are visiting the shop again (the owner is collecting costume materials for us - which is why we first went - she is really a decorative and textiles specialist) so I will try to ask her more about the history. I will also take another look at that hand-drawn deck, which historically was very interesting (though not as much so as the Wirth I think). I would really LOVE to know who it was who put the collection together.
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| Vilyariel |
14 Oct 2004 |
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hey, maybe if you were able to talk a photo of the other deck/s in the store and posted it on here, other readers might be able to try and figure out what it is or might be related to.
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| baba-prague |
14 Oct 2004 |
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That's a good idea. The Egyptian tarot that she had (Minors only, very odd) did not interest me personally at all. But it was very old and perhaps something quite rare. I will see if she will agree to a photo. If nothing else, it would be fun to see if anyone here can identify it.
The hand-drawn deck was very curious. Slightly erotic and well drawn - but with The Fool missing. She said it was by the artist who did the wall paintings at the National Theatre here - hence the high price as it will probably sell to an art collector rather than to a tarot one.
I will also ask her to ask the elderly man who brought them in if there are any more - though I think that would be a bit too much to expect.
Very exciting altogether!
This shop has some fascinating things - definitely run by someone with interesting taste.
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| Terrie |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Hi everyone,
I found this great forum by accident when I was looking for information on the Oswald Wirth Tarot. The thread has been very interesting...I've loved reading it, and I found out at last why the US Games version bothered me so much. I went to the Somerville site Lee mentioned in an earlier post:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Actually the Editions de l'Aigle edition is not easy for folks in the U.S. to obtain, as far as I know. I bought it from the Somerville site, but I don't think they even carry it anymore. So a USGames edition would certainly make it easier for Americans."
-- Lee
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was able to order the l'Aigle deck with no problem and received a notice that the deck had been shipped. This was just within the last week (I live in California, USA.) I was also able to find the Wirth book on Amazon.com (used), but in looking over the book, I'd say that Elisabeth Haich's book, Wisdom of the Tarot, is much better in helping us to understand the symbolism of the Wirth deck. Both Wirth and Haich relate the cards to the path to higher consciousness, the highest path of initiation. This approach may be pretty far out for some of us. So the Wirth deck is the best suited to the study of our own evolution.
The illustrations (paper cards) in the Haich book are mostly accurate Wirth drawings (his own drawings), but the colors are plain and flat, though bright. Nothing like the lovely cards some of you kindly put on-line for us to view. The Haich 'cards' are far superior to the US Games cards, however.
I have a background in Eastern metaphysics and meditate daily (Paramahansa Yogananda's path) so I understand what Wirth and Haich are talking about. Otherwise I think I might be somewhat lost.
Thanks to all of you for a fascinating thread!
Blessings,
Terrie
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| Lee |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Welcome to Aeclectic, Terrie! Thank you for your interesting and informative post. I'm glad to see that Somerville is carring the de l'Aigle deck again.
-- Lee
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| Terrie |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Hi Lee,
Thanks for the welcome. I'm sensitive to colors, and I love the purple colors on this forum. I wear a lot of purple--different shades.
I wanted to say a few words about Elisabeth Haich's book. Last night I was reading it again. She says in the introduction:
"With an ever-increasing demand for the psychological interpretation of these cards, I felt impelled to publish in book form the interpretation of the Greater Arcana....Unfortunately the tarot cards have been frequently redesigned by people who were totally unaware of their inner symbolic significance...
"The only tarot which undobutedly descends from a genuine initiate, and which serves our purpose perfectly, is the one designed and coloured by Oswald Wirth at the dictation of the young initiage, Stanislas de Guaita....These cards combine in equal measure artistic beauty with correct symbolic depection of their deeper meaning..." (end quote)
I own a number of tarot books and decks, and the Haich book and Wirth deck are the only sources that speak to me what might be called 'Truth.' The other decks all have their strong points, and there are some good books out there on using the cards in various ways for readings. I use the Wirth deck for study of what might be called 'soul evolution.' I'm also working out the atrological symbolism for this deck. I'm an astrologer who uses the Jyotish (Indian) zodiac.
I really like Elisabeth Haich's book. She speaks to us in modern times in easy-to-understand language whereas Wirth's book is from another age. It's a good book to really study various symbols, however--takes a lot of work! I'm studying both books. The 'cards' that come with the Haich book are the true Wirth drawings, but the colors are flat bright colors from the modern printing press.
Blessings,
Terrie
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| Terrie |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Here's another quote from Elisabeth Haich, which I found to be only too true! I'm sure it's also true that we can pass through several cards in one lifetime. (We really need a new English word that will encompass both male and female!)
Blessings,
Terrie
"The nature of these cards is such that they can produce a strong awakening effect on man's consciousness. He need only examine them one by one and, in order to understand them better, read the relevant description. When he reaches the card corresponding to his inner state, his interest will suddenly be roused and the knowledge that he finds himself at the level of consciousness of that particular card will hit him like an electric shock. This card he will understand completely, find full of life and meaning, and in the depths of his being he will feel a strong response."
Elisabeth Haich, WISDOM OF THE TAROT, p. 24
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| Diana |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Terrie: Thank you for all your wonderful posts.
As you have probably noticed, I have the deepest respect for the greatness of the Oswald Wirth deck, and also for the man himself whom I would dearly have loved to have met... just once... and always regret that we were not alive at the same time.
The only thing that bothers me slightly when I work with his deck (and this is not something that I begrudge Wirth, please don't get me wrong) is that there is FreeMasonry stuff hidden in his deck. And I do not know how much of it is in it, as I am not a FreeMason, and I would imagine that even I were, as I am not of the male gender, there would be things that would remain secret from me because of my gender. (FreeMasons do not put men and women on an equal footing. A bit like the Muslims and the Catholics, right? :mad: )
Perhaps there is less secret-society stuff in it that I imagine there is. Perhaps it is minimal. But if one is not a FreeMason (male), then how can one know?
I mentioned (I think) in one of the linked threads in this thread that the Tarot of Marseilles is in my eyes the only Tarot that has no secrets. It has many hidden things, but they are, if one devotes sufficient time, available for all to know. And that is why the Papess in the Wirth deck has a closed book, and the Papess in the Marseilles deck has an open book. What I mean is that they are not hidden in order to be preserved for a few chosen few. They are hidden until we find the key. And the key is in all of our hearts. Male or female, young or old, rich or poor.
Please give me your thoughts on this.
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| baba-prague |
21 Oct 2004 |
|
Diana, I know nothing like as much as you and other people here about the Wirth (and I'm aware of the irony that this 1926 deck fell into my hands - it hardly seems fair at times.)
BUT, the one thing I will say is that something that struck me very much about these cards (in the original, as they were intended) is that they feel amazingly feminine. I was very much surprised by this.
Anyway I will say no more but look forward to reading this discussion.
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| Terrie |
21 Oct 2004 |
|
Hi Diana,
Before I reply to your post, can you tell me how I can put your quotes into my reply? Step by step. I'm new to this forum and don't know quite how to link one post to another. I see nicely set off quotes in the posts here.
Thanks,
Terrie
P.S. A preliminary note: I can say that the 'vibes' of the Wirth book bothered me right on. I even had a warning dream that I think referred to the book. More details later after I learn how to include quotes from your reply! Haich, however, hits me in the heart in sort of a euphoric way.
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| Diana |
21 Oct 2004 |
|
Originally posted by Terrie
Hi Diana,
Before I reply to your post, can you tell me how I can put your quotes into my reply? Step by step.
The VB codes can all be found here:
http://www.tarotforum.net/misc.php?action=bbcode#imgcode
Terrie: If you respond to this post of mine by pressing the "Quote" button under my post, you will be able to quote my post, and also you will see some of the codes that are used.
You have to start by using this code:
[quote]
Then you quote what you want to and delete the rest. To finish the quote, you need to write this code:
[/quote ]
(but you musn't put the space that I have put between the E and the ] . I had to put it in so that my explanation would not come out in quotes.
You can check if your post is looking like you want it to if you press "Preview Reply" before pressing "Submit Reply" when you have finished writing what you want to.
I hope my explanation is not too vague.
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| Terrie |
21 Oct 2004 |
|
Originally posted by Diana
The only thing that bothers me slightly when I work with his deck (and this is not something that I begrudge Wirth...is that there is FreeMasonry stuff hidden in his deck...as I am not of the male gender, there would be things that would remain secret from me because of my gender...But if one is not a FreeMason (male), then how can one know?... Please give me your thoughts on this. [/b]
Got it! Thanks, Diana, for the instructions on how to use quotes. Whenever I put three dots in a quote, it means I deleted some text. Now to reply to your post:
Wirth lived in an age when secret occult societies were everywhere. So-called sacred knowledge wasn't supposed to be giving to the 'ignorant masses.' I don't know anything about FreeMason symbolism, but it could well be in the cards. Women especially were often excluded from membership in these secret societies.
We live in a vastly different age in the 21st century. There is no longer 'secret knowledge' that is hidden from us. It's all laid out in a crystal clear manner in the writings and lessons of great souls like Yogananda. (This is my path, but there will be other channels to truth as well.) Elisabeth Haich doesn't bother to hide anything in her interpretation of the cards, but she doesn't give the actual techniques that lead to cosmic awareness or full 'initiation.' From reading her books we know that she had reached a fairly high state of initiation herself.
What is initition? It's the step by step path to full unity with God, to an awareness so expanded that we live in God's mind and experience the universe as ourselves. I don't know any more about Wirth's mentor, S deG, than is menioned in the Wirth and Haich books. How far along was he on the path of initiation? We don't know, but we do know from Wirth's own description of himself that he (Wirth) had a slow Saturnian nature.
Wirth's book reflects a rather heavy intelluctualism. It's an 'occult' book with some disconcerting vibes, probably due to various astral occult links. Wirth studied a great deal and assimilated the meanings of numerous symbols from different systems. I don't sense an aura of spiritual wisdom from his book. Rather, the book is like an encylopedia of information, which Wirth relates to the Tarot cards. But Elisabeth Haich indicates that the cards themselves come from a tradition of initiates. This doesn't mean that Wirth was a high initiate himself. He was an artist, however, who could draw and color the cards, and he had learned a lot under the guidance of his mentor.
I believe we have to separate the cards themselves from the man who designed them, and also realize that as human beings, we're all subject to our own perception and interpretation of symbols.
This post is too long already! I still have to talk about the dream I had that I think relates to the Wirth book, and the book the High Priestess is holding.
Terrie
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| Terrie |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by baba-prague
...BUT, the one thing I will say is that something that struck me very much about these cards (in the original, as they were intended) is that they feel amazingly feminine. I was very much surprised by this.
How interesting, Baba-prague! Can you describe what you mean by 'amazingly feminine?
Thanks,
Terrie
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| fyreflye |
21 Oct 2004 |
|
Tarot of Marseilles is in my eyes the only Tarot that has no secrets. It has many hidden things, but they are, if one devotes sufficient time, available for all to know. And that is why the Papess in the Wirth deck has a closed book, and the Papess in the Marseilles deck has an open book. What I mean is that they are not hidden in order to be preserved for a few chosen few. They are hidden until we find the key. And the key is in all of our hearts. Male or female, young or old, rich or poor.
The book held by the Papesse in the Wirth deck is only partially closed; she keeps her place with two fingers inserted among the pages and in her other hand she holds a key. The message here for me is that rather than reading the book ourselves we must accept the Papesse as an intermediary between ourselves and the secret knowledge; that is, we must follow the path of the divine feminine in order to receive Initiation. This doesn't strike me as a particularly sexist message. In a truly patriarchal deck Le Pape would be reading the book to her while she listened with starry-eyed attention ;)
None of this, by the way, lessens my affection for the Marseille. There are many paths up the mountain and each of us, if we're sincere, will eventually find the right one for ourselves.
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| Terrie |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by fyreflye
The book held by the Papesse in the Wirth deck is only partially closed; she keeps her place with two fingers inserted among the pages and in her other hand she holds a key. The message here for me is that rather than reading the book ourselves we must accept the Papesse as an intermediary between ourselves and the secret knowledge; that is, we must follow the path of the divine feminine in order to receive Initiation.
Elisabeth Haich says that this card is related to two worlds--the realm of spirit and the realm of matter. The half closed book "contains, but as yet does not yield the mysteries of this world and the other..."
In other words, a person at this stage of evolution is in the process of exploring in order to discover more about him/herself and the mysteries of this life and what lies beyond--our inner spiritual universe. Life for this person is still shrouded in 'maya' or the delusion of life here in the manifested universe which seems so real, but is only a thought in the mind of God.
The half closed book might be seen as the mind of the individual to whom this card speaks. (This is my thought.)
The priestess herself holds all the secrets of the inner and outer worlds.
Terrie
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| Terrie |
21 Oct 2004 |
|
Here's the dream I mentioned earlier today:
Yesterday the Oswald Wirth book arrived from Amazon.com. Since it's an out-of-print book, I was really looking forward to reading it. Then I had a dream last night that seemed very strange, coming out of the blue so to speak. After thinking about it in the morning, I thought it might refer to Wirth's book.
In the dream a young theater director (Wirth's mentor is described in the book as being very young with light hair) and his crew of actors were setting up their stage in my back yard near the door to the house. They had uprooted some of my prized young evergreens, various plants and other young trees and were carrying them away in wheelbarrows to another part of the yard. I was extremely distressed that they would dig up the trees for a place to stage their play without asking my permission first. I tried to re-plant an evergreen, and then started to water plants in the yard.
There was more to the dream, but I forget the rest. Mostly I remember my acute distress that the trees were dug up and the preparations for the play (which included setting up some very small trees) were put in their place.
I took this dream to mean that I had some healthy young mental or spiritual trees growing and allowing 'foreign' (to me) concepts (possibly Masonic and otherwise) into my mental or spiritual 'yard' via a back door entry would rudely uproot my own trees. The dream seemed to be a warning to be careful about the vibrations associated with the book. Probably all these occult books have the mental vibes of the authors attached or possibly 'astral strings.' I hope I'm not sounding overly superstitious here!
Yogananda once said something like this: "If you want to be an artist, read books by great artists. You'll absorb their vibrations, and becoming an artist yourself will be much easier." (paraphrased)
Like I said, the Haich book is very different from Wirth's book. I'm waiting for the cards from France to see how they compare to the pictures in the Haich book.
Terrie
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| Cerulean |
21 Oct 2004 |
|
of the deck you ordered from Sommerville.
Sound like you have some wonderful pleasures to explore when your new deck comes...
Cerulean
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| fyreflye |
21 Oct 2004 |
|
What Elizabeth Haich says is what Elizabeth Haich says. What we dream is our dream. To understand the meaning of La Papesse you must ask La Papesse, not "The High Priestess."
For the source of Wirth's ideas see http://www.rosicrucian-order.com/artsani.htm
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| Terrie |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by fyreflye
...For the source of Wirth's ideas see http://www.rosicrucian-order.com/artsani.htm
Very happy to see this article on Wirth's mentor. I printed it out to keep with the book.
Thanks,
Terrie
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| Terrie |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Cerulean
...of the deck you ordered from Sommerville.Sounds like you have some wonderful pleasures to explore when your new deck comes.
Thank you, Cerulean. I'm really looking forward to seeing the cards. I never would have known about the deck without this forum.
Terrie
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| baba-prague |
22 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Terrie
How interesting, Baba-prague! Can you describe what you mean by 'amazingly feminine?
Thanks,
Terrie
Well, as you know it can be hard to exactly describe a feeling, so please forgive me if I'm a bit vague, but well, the cards are very decorative - in design and in colour. I'm trying not to stereotype feminine/masculine here, but basically, when I first looked at the cards (in the minute or two before I recognised them) I would instinctively have said that they were designed by a woman (I'm not saying they were! Just trying to explain my reaction).
These are just very "pretty" cards in one way. Much more so than I would ever have imagined looking at the US Games version (sorry, this is not a "bash US Games" post - but their version of this deck is not, as we've all agreed, a sensitive one). I wish I could convey this more in a scan, but well, if the French reproduction is good, then people reading this may understand what I mean. They are very "light" and approachable looking - whereas I would describe the Wirth-influenced Lasenic, for example, as much more self-conscious about being "serious" in the visual style of its imagery.
I will say also that I may have been partly influenced by the fact that when I first saw the cards they were surrounded by decorative jewellery, textiles etc. - but on the other hand, there were two other very old decks in their company, and looking at them, I would immediately have said they looked much more "masculine" in character (it's also something to do with the way the male and female figures are drawn).
Interestingly, this may also touch on an earlier conversation about the deck, in which Diana queried the originality of the Art Nouveau borders (which in that post, Lee confirmed, rightly, to in fact be original). I can understand Diana's query as somehow the borders do look almost frivolous in one view - although they fit perfectly and in fact make sense when you consider further.
The woman in the shop where I bought these said to me "They might be by Mucha" (good sales pitch!) and although of course that's ludicrous, there is in fact a very slight similarity in style (not in the figures themselves I'd add - and it IS slight) - she wasn't totally off in saying this.
I'll take out the cards and look and feel further and see if there is anything more I could add here. I hope it is useful in some ways and not just vague impressionistic rambling!
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| Vilyariel |
22 Oct 2004 |
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Have any of you read the book 'Angels & Demons" by Dan Brown? It mentions the brotherhood of the Masons [freemasons] and the cult of the illuminati being related... i dont know if this is going to lead to a point or anything, but maybe there is a link between his tarot cards and these groups
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| fyreflye |
22 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Vilyariel
Have any of you read the book 'Angels & Demons" by Dan Brown? It mentions the brotherhood of the Masons [freemasons] and the cult of the illuminati being related... i dont know if this is going to lead to a point or anything, but maybe there is a link between his tarot cards and these groups
Be sure to mention this theory to Ron Decker when you next see him. I'm sure he'd love it.
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| Vilyariel |
22 Oct 2004 |
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i thought that perhaps wirth had used the cards as a way to communicate some cryptic kind of messages or ideas.... and what way could be more perfect that tarot? other artists used their art, so why not cards? Anything can be used in a tarot image, because we know it is full of symbolism, we wouldnt question the placement of an odd image. as a worker of cryptic messages, an illuminati would know alot about symbolism, along with the fact that their name [more or less] means 'enlightened ones' or for the sake of argument, those who have found the truth, or are seeking it...this is further backed up by a fact that Terrie brought up before; that the wirth deck, along with the haich book, were the only two sources that spoke 'truth' to her.
dont know if anyone else 'gets' what i mean here... erm... maybe not so much as a form of cryptic communication after all, but a way to 'find the truth' and become truly enlightened.
hmmm... this thread is going all sorts of places... no stone left unturned...
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| Vilyariel |
22 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Terrie
Elisabeth Haich says that this card is related to two worlds--the realm of spirit and the realm of matter. The half closed book "contains, but as yet does not yield the mysteries of this world and the other..."
In other words, a person at this stage of evolution is in the process of exploring in order to discover more about him/herself and the mysteries of this life and what lies beyond--our inner spiritual universe. Life for this person is still shrouded in 'maya' or the delusion of life here in the manifested universe which seems so real, but is only a thought in the mind of God.
The half closed book might be seen as the mind of the individual to whom this card speaks. (This is my thought.)
The priestess herself holds all the secrets of the inner and outer worlds.
Terrie
that sounds like an explanation... i'd like to add my 2 cents.[probably what terrie said, but reworded!!] I feel that the half closed book means that the person holding the book has aided the querant to the point of their life that they are in, or 'told' them, and it is up to them to 'find out' what the other half says. they have lived one part of their life, [the open part, the bit they know] and the future is unknown [the closed book] and therefore they have to live their life to find out what it says...only then can the book be fully opened.
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| Terrie |
22 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by baba-prague
Well, as you know it can be hard to exactly describe a feeling, so please forgive me if I'm a bit vague, but well, the cards are very decorative - in design and in colour...These are just very "pretty" cards in one way. Much more so than I would ever have imagined looking at the US Games version...They are very "light" and approachable looking ...I hope it is useful in some ways and not just vague impressionistic rambling!
Your post was very helpful, baba-prague, in describing what you meant by 'feminine.' Partly a felt response and partly how the cards were drawn and colored with the art neveau borders. From the scans, the cards are very beautiful, and the colors are more subtle compared to decks with bright, strong colors and lines that could only be termed 'masculine.' We do have our cultural stereotypes of male and female, so we might as well accept them. Both Wirth and Stanislas de Graita were artistically sensitive. I'm holding off on my study until the French deck arrives.
I didn't mean to criticize Wirth's book. It's a great book to study symbolism, and I love all the little symbolic drawings throughout the book. I always like these reprints of older books that were designed and written with such great care before the age of computers. I feel very lucky to have found a used copy.
The U.S. Games deck, in my opinion, is just plain awful when compared to the original design and colors of the cards. I've packaged mine to return to the seller, who accepts second hand decks for sale. It was never used for readings. I took one look at it and put it away on my bookshelf.
A belated thanks to Lee for posting the history of the Wirth deck. I printed the post and put it in the back of Wirth's book.
Terrie
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| Terrie |
22 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Vilyariel
I feel that the half closed book means that the person holding the book has aided the querant to the point of their life that they are in, or 'told' them, and it is up to them to 'find out' what the other half says" they have lived one part of their life, [the open part, the bit they know] and the future is unknown [the closed book] and therefore they have to live their life to find out what it says...only then can the book be fully opened.
A very good interpretation if you're using the cards for a reading. The Haich approach is to use the cards for personal development and self-study. The Wirth book seems to cover various possibilities of using the cards from what I've read so far. I'm not reading much--waiting for that deck from France to study the book!
Terrie
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| TemperanceAngel |
24 Oct 2004 |
|
Baba congratulations on your beautiful and amazing new deck, what a treasure!
Thanks for posting the scans too!
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| baba-prague |
24 Oct 2004 |
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I will put up more scans when I can. Just a bit swamped right now - battling with our website changes.
Once all is settled I think I'll try to refresh the whole piece on the Tarot of Prague site about tarot and Prague. I know so much more since that was written - and I could show this Wirth, which might be useful.
Oh, too much to do!
I'm so glad that this thread has become so interesting - it's valuable - very - to read these thoughts.
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| Terrie |
24 Oct 2004 |
|
I just checked the Tarot of Prague site. What a lovely Tarot! I can't resist art, so I immediately ordered the book and cards from Amazon.com. It's no mystery, baba-prague, why you were led to the beautiful Wirth Tarot in the shop in the city of Prague. The deck was waiting for you. You deserve it!
I"m really not into collecting books and cards (I have only a handful of decks) , but I couldn't resist this one or the Wirth deck after I saw the scans you posted.
Terrie
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| TemperanceAngel |
24 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Terrie
It's no mystery, baba-prague, why you were led to the beautiful Wirth Tarot in the shop in the city of Prague. The deck was waiting for you. You deserve it!
Terrie, what a lovely thing to say. Welcome to AT by the way :)
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| Terrie |
26 Oct 2004 |
|
Thanks for the welcome, Temperance Angel! Most forum members no doubt know a lot more about modern Tarot than I do. I first studied the Tarot many years ago in Berkeley, California, when there were only a few published traditional decks. Then there was a long period of time when I more or less forgot about the Tarot. When I looked into it again, I was astounded at how the concept of Tarot had expanded in so many different directions.
I suppose there must be discussions on this forum about the relevance of all the different decks. One or more decks will speak to each one of us. I like the more traditional spiritual interpretation, which is why I like Haich and the Writh deck. But I can see how the more contemporary decks will speak to others. I have to say, though, that I'm absolutely intrigued by a deck that's based on the wonderful art of Prague.
Terrie
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| baba-prague |
26 Oct 2004 |
|
Originally posted by Terrie
I just checked the Tarot of Prague site. What a lovely Tarot! I can't resist art, so I immediately ordered the book and cards from Amazon.com. It's no mystery, baba-prague, why you were led to the beautiful Wirth Tarot in the shop in the city of Prague. The deck was waiting for you. You deserve it!
That's a really kind thing to say. I'm not sure that I do deserve this deck in any way. It came at an interesting time though, as we needed to show a deck in one of the cards we are doing with Rachel (Rachel Pollack - long story that I won't derail this thread with). So we used this Wirth, and it looks great. Maybe it arrived in time to be included? Alex and I have a great belief in things coming at the right time.
I think you and Tarot of Prague will probably gell. It works best, I think, with people who are interested in history, as so many of the images have so many historical layers.
Later (and perhaps in another thread or an email?) I'd love to hear what you think of the deck.
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| Terrie |
26 Oct 2004 |
|
Originally posted by baba-prague
I'm not sure that I do deserve this deck in any way...
Later (and perhaps in another thread or an email?) I'd love to hear what you think of the deck.
You deserve the deck because of the all the time, love and tremendous amount of work that go into your own tarot decks. That gives you a really strong 'tarot magnetism.' (I don't know what else to call it!)
I'll be happy to post my comments, but it will be a little while. I asked for Amazon super-saver shipping, which in the past hasn't taken much longer than regular shipping. But this time Amazon sent a note saying my order wouldn't be shipped before November 1. I was distressed, but didn't want to change the order as I was afraid it would get messed up. I'll post my comments on the Tarot of Prague thread.
Terrie
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| Terrie |
29 Oct 2004 |
|
My Wirth Tarot has arrived from France. It's a very attractive deck, far better than any other reproduction that's available. I compared the cards to Karen's scans of her wonderful find, and its easy to see that although the French deck is an accurate copy, there's no way to reproduce the special texture, feel and colors of the original 1927 deck.
The difference is especially noticable in the gold backgound texture, which is only smooth ink in the modern copy. I like the satin feel of the new cards, however, much better than the usual glossy plastic coating of most modern cards. The 22 card Wirth deck isn't really for readings, but for personal spiritual and psychological study. By far the best analysis of the cards is the Elisabeth Haich book (WISDOM OF THE TAROT). It's very inexpensive, only around U.S. $11 as I recall from Amazon.com.
I'm finding the Wirth book a bit difficult to grasp. Lots of nice little diagrams throughout the book, though, and lots of information! I'd recommend the De l'Aigle (French) deck for serious study to anyone who is bothered by bright, flat colors. Otherwise, the plates that come with the Haich book are the very nice Wirth drawings. The De l'Aigle colors are more subtle and muted with some texture, and the cards have the art neuveau borders.
Terrie
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| Terrie |
30 Oct 2004 |
|
Originally posted by baba-prague
This could be a copy of the D'Aigle deck, if that is a really good reproduction done with an old-fashioned technique. Do you know what the D'Aigle feels like? How long has it been around? Are the colours a lot softer than those shown? Also, does it have white borders? On one of the shop sites that shows it, it seems to, but on this site it doesn't.
My deck seems almost identical, with a few tiny details of colour that are different.
http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/tarot/bl_wirth.htm
Karen,
The colors in the cards at the above link are extremely close to my d'Aigle cards. It IS the d'Aigle deck. If you want a copy of the deck for comparison, just print out that page on good quality photo paper and cut out the cards. The borders are white and the gold background is flat. As you can see, these cards lack the delicacy of the colors and texture of the deck you found in Prague. You're right that there's magic in the way the colors and inks are laid down, and today's machine reproduction can't replace the careful hand work that went into the older cards. Yes, you have a treasure. I'm so happy you found those cards!
Terrie
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| Vilyariel |
22 Dec 2004 |
|
Okay, so i noticed this thread has been out of action for a little while.. so i'm not sure if you have already seen this yourselves, or don't think it worthy of a post, or perhaps baba has concluded her search... but after reading The Da Vinci Code; Special Illustrated Collectors Edition, I noticed 2 things I had not previously seen before [or could have seen..!] that are releated to Tarot in general, and the Oswald Wirth.
1) There is a passage in the book, on page 95, that states "Originally, tarot had been devised as a secret means to pass along ideologies banned by the church'.
2) There are 3 tarot card images included near this passage, "The Female Pope", "The Star" and "The Fool", all of which appear to be from the Oswald Wirth Deck. I only made the connection after leafing back halfway through the book and looking at The Fool, it is the same as the scan baba posted, with the small crocodile/alligator, barely visible, but there nonetheless. I looked in the image credits at the back of the book and it says that the images come from "Private Collection/Bridgeman Art Library." Unfortunately the cards do not appear to be original, just a reprint..
I don't know if that was too obvious or not, but it can't hurt to post for those who havent seen the latest release of the book.
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| jmd |
22 Dec 2004 |
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I obviously totally missed this thread when it first appeared...
what a fantastic blessing to have found such an edition, baba-prague...
looking forward to more scans when you have the opportunity!
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| baba-prague |
23 Dec 2004 |
|
I'm sorry I didn't do any more scans. I'm still a bit stunned about finding this deck, and half of me thinks that it just can't be the original. On the other hand, it's possible - things got put away in attics here for decades. It also was with two other obviously very old decks, one hand-drawn (am I still fretting over that hand-drawn deck? Yes, a little, though it was Majors-only and had lost The Fool card so could never be used). Anyway... Yes I will post some more scans - probably after the holidays. I'll be as accurate as I can with the colour repro and people can see what they think.
It's a really beautiful deck. Oh and thanks for the "heads up" on the Da Vinci Code.
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| kenji |
12 May 2005 |
|
Hi:)
I found this thread recently.
Do you think it's possible that someone cut these out of the original book and added the gold ink? It seems a bit unlikely (the gold is very accurately done) but maybe it's one possible explanation?
I have an original copy of 1927 Wirth book.
It is supplemented with a portfolio, which contains 11 coloured plates inside.
Each plate has two images of major arcanas.
Here's a picture of them (Not so fine one, though).
Karen, does this look similar to yours?
http://***uoka.cool.ne.jp/hanno/Wirth1926_1927.jpg
(NOTE: Only "La Papesse" card's background isn't painted in gold.)
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| Terrie |
12 May 2005 |
|
Hi:)
...I have an original copy of 1927 Wirth book.
It is supplemented with a portfolio, which contains 11 coloured plates inside.
Each plate has two images of major arcanas.
Here's a picture of them (Not so fine one, though).
Karen, does this look similar to yours?
http://***uoka.cool.ne.jp/hanno/Wirth1926_1927.jpg
(NOTE: Only "La Papesse" card's background isn't painted in gold.)
Hi Kenji,
I patched your link, but it might be helpful to post the link again so it's right.
It's interesting to see the difference between your prints and the French cards. Your prints are obviously 'prints' (wood block?) because of the white lines around the colors. The French deck is colored by modern printing methods, so the colors are brighter (without the bordering white areas), but less suble and varied. Otherwise, the illustrations are exactly the same.
Thanks for putting your prints on the internet. I've always wanted to see what the prints looked like that came with the original book!
Therese
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| kenji |
13 May 2005 |
|
Hi Terrie,
I'm glad you like the pictures:)
I patched your link, but it might be helpful to post the link again so it's right.
Of course I'd like to, but I can't help it.
It seems that on this forum "f", "u" & "k" turn into asterisks automatically
when they are combined together:(
(Yes, I can guess the reason...)
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| baba-prague |
13 May 2005 |
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Here are some largish scans of my deck. One problem of course is that we're comparing scans, and the way they look depends on so many things. For instance, on your colour plates the gold looks brighter and the borders darker than on my cards, but that could be just the scan (or indeed the printing quality if you are working from colour plates) and also I think my cards are a little bit worn - I'd guess some of the brightness of the gold has worn off.
The scans I had to hand don't have exactly the same cards, but later I'll scan my Magician and High Priestess and we can do a direct comparison. I'm now pretty convinced that my deck is an original 1926/7 copy, but of course it's exciting to look further. Thanks for all the information from the original book - that's fascinating.
http://www.bohemian-cats.com/examples/Wirth%20cards.jpg
ps - I should probably add that these scans make the red on my cards look deeper than it is. In fact, it's a rich kind of faded red colour - hard to describe. I should also say that you can see that my L'Imperatrice has some water damage - slight but you can see it in the scan. Interestingly, it's only the red that seems to have smeared slightly.
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| Fulgour |
13 May 2005 |
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First impressions of Wirth's 22 images can be strange,
but for those who have welcomed a good deck home
his creations speak louder than any old books of what
the cards felt and looked like to a 19th c. mind's eye.
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| kenji |
13 May 2005 |
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Here are some largish scans of my deck. One problem of course is that we're comparing scans, and the way they look depends on so many things. For instance, on your colour plates the gold looks brighter and the borders darker than on my cards, but that could be just the scan (or indeed the printing quality if you are working from colour plates) and also I think my cards are a little bit worn - I'd guess some of the brightness of the gold has worn off.
The scans I had to hand don't have exactly the same cards, but later I'll scan my Magician and High Priestess and we can do a direct comparison. I'm now pretty convinced that my deck is an original 1926/7 copy, but of course it's exciting to look further. Thanks for all the information from the original book - that's fascinating.
http://www.bohemian-cats.com/examples/Wirth%20cards.jpg
ps - I should probably add that these scans make the red on my cards look deeper than it is. In fact, it's a rich kind of faded red colour - hard to describe. I should also say that you can see that my L'Imperatrice has some water damage - slight but you can see it in the scan. Interestingly, it's only the red that seems to have smeared slightly.
Comparing your scans with my plates, I'm also pretty convinced that your
cards are 1926/7 Wirth cards.
The plates are rather thin paper, so they were probably intended to be
pasted onto thick cardboards or something --- just as Falconnier's and
Papus' Egyptian Tarot plates were.
By the way, here's another picture of Wirth plate.
http://***uoka.cool.ne.jp/hanno/Wirth_1926.jpg
("f","u" & "k" for the 3 asterisks)
Some faint traces of letters & lines can be seen on the background of
"Le Bateleur".
Does your BATELEUR have the same? --- mine does not.
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| baba-prague |
14 May 2005 |
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Some faint traces of letters & lines can be seen on the background of
"Le Bateleur".
Does your BATELEUR have the same? --- mine does not.
YES! It has exactly this. I am scanning right now, and will try to do a detailed scan of that particular area.
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| baba-prague |
14 May 2005 |
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Okay, here are the same two cards. This time I've tried to do a better scan - so be warned, it's very large. I think the lines and marks on the back of The Bateleur are really interesting. Can anyone suggest what these are and why they are shown semi-obscured in this way? A close-up of this area is at the second URL.
http://www.magic-realism.com/wirthcards.jpg
http://www.magic-realism.com/wirth_closeup.jpg
Edited to add - do you know how this was printed? We have taken a good look and it has definite pressure marks so was done with some kind of plates. Alex wonders if they were metal, rubber or wooden plates? Anyway, it isn't lithography.
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| Cerulean |
14 May 2005 |
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paper it was done on originally has lace pattern or trace style of scrollwork? Is the paper that it is printed on a kind of thin rag/linen or a kind of vellum with watermark impressions on the back? It could be the makers wanted to print these cards on fanciful papers that already had a paste resist before the silkscreen impression, if this is hand done.
Just a thought, thinking of washi and other styles of ornamental paper. Since you are thinking the 1920s, the printmaking style of the European origins would be cool to research...
Cerulean
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| kenji |
14 May 2005 |
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Hi Karen & Mari:)
Can anyone suggest what these are and why they are shown semi-obscured in this way?
Thanks for the scan, Karen.
It's almost certain that these letters & lines are from this;
http://membres.lycos.fr/tarotmarseille/galWirth/galWirthcad.htm
Now look carefully again at the space between the two arcana on this page;
http://***uoka.cool.ne.jp/hanno/Wirth_1926.jpg
Can you see...?
And it seems the specimen in KAPLAN III also has these letters & lines.
Perhaps they are printed on the back of the plate...?
Anyway, I think they're there by accident, not on purpose.
P.S.
This statement of the author (Wirth) is also reproduced on the back of
the front cover of L'AIGLE deck's booklet.
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| Teheuti |
14 May 2005 |
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I have a modern edition of the Art Nouveau Wirth deck that I bought in Paris around 1985. There's no box or wrapper. It's printed on light-weight, cream-colored card stock. The images look exactly like yours, Karen, but the colors are very pale and flat (with no discernable dot screen). The gold is a metallic ink with only a slightest glimmer to it. The Papess background design is brown. So far, the only difference I've found is the lack of vibrancy in the colors. There is no back design or color (just the cream paper). Does anyone know what edition this is?
Mary
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| kenji |
15 May 2005 |
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I have a modern edition of the Art Nouveau Wirth deck that I bought in Paris around 1985. There's no box or wrapper. It's printed on light-weight, cream-colored card stock. The images look exactly like yours, Karen, but the colors are very pale and flat (with no discernable dot screen). The gold is a metallic ink with only a slightest glimmer to it. The Papess background design is brown. So far, the only difference I've found is the lack of vibrancy in the colors. There is no back design or color (just the cream paper). Does anyone know what edition this is?
Hi Mary,
It's so nice to have a chance to talk with you:)
I suspect yours is also a 1926/7 deck.
The paper is a bit too thin for playing cards, isn't it?
As to the colours, it seems some specimens have vibrant colours and
others don't. So various.
For example, Kurt Seligmann described the colours of Wirth deck as "pastel"
in his book. You know, mine have the "pastel" colours, too:)
Seen carefully, isn't the flesh colour on your deck in fact "dot screen"?
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| Teheuti |
15 May 2005 |
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I suspect yours is also a 1926/7 deck.
The paper is a bit too thin for playing cards, isn't it?
Seen carefully, isn't the flesh colour on your deck in fact "dot screen"?
I'm sure that my copy is modern. Thanks for the suggestion on checking the flesh color. Yes, it's a dot screen. The paper is a little lighter than an index card and larger. The paper size is 3-1/4 x 5-11/16 (inches). The image itself is 2-1/2 x 4-15/16. The dark line around the image shows a slight off-set of the red (actually salmon pink) and blue colors that can only be seen with a magnifying glass.
Anyone know of a French reproduction done during the 1970s or 1980s?
Mary
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| baba-prague |
15 May 2005 |
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Interesting, the image size is exactly the same as mine, but on my cards you can see the dot screen on the whole image. The gold ink is hard to describe, it looks to me almost as though it has been put on by hand as it isn't completely even. As you describe, my La Papesse also has brown, rather than gold, as the base of the art nouveau border.
However, I wouldn't describe the colours as pastel - they are soft, but have some intensity. My second scans were pretty accurate on colour (on my monitor anyway).
I've never heard of a printing in the 1980s in France, but then I know far less about the history of the Wirth than others here. I'll look in my Kaplan now though!
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| kenji |
15 May 2005 |
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Mine is the same size, too.
And as to the colours--
Besides the flesh colour, PALE BLUE and OCHRE YELLOW (e.g. the skeleton
in XIII) are "dot screens".
And tones: I guess mine is one of the second (or later) impressions.
It was attached to a 1927 book, so it may have been printed in that year
-- not in 1926.
As I wrote in the previous post, Kurt Seligmann referred to the colours as
"pastel" as of 1948. He may have had a copy of the same impression.
And remember, my "BATELEUR" has no letters & lines on the background!
Mary, how about yours?
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| kenji |
15 May 2005 |
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Mary:
Or else yours may be a "Drei Eichen Verlag" set ---
On the page 545 of KAPLAN III, it says:
"A set of Major Arcana almost identical to the 1926 Oswald Wirth Tarot
was issued by Drei Eichen Verlag of Munich. The Drei Eichen set, with
French titles, was drawn by an anonymous artist following the 1926
Wirth set, and it varies from the original only in minor details. It was
printed on yellow paper in the same colors as the 1926 Wirth Tarot,
except that the backgrounds are mat gold rather than shiny. Drei
Eichen Verlag issued their version of the Oswald Wirth Tarot around
1986."
In "LA PAPESSE" card of the Original Wirth deck, a black tile (just below
the "OW" logo) of the chequered floor has a slight lack of colour.
(See the picures of Karen's and mine.)
On the other hand, it seems the Drei Eichen deck doesn't.
I wonder if this will be a clue...
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| baba-prague |
16 May 2005 |
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In "LA PAPESSE" card of the Original Wirth deck, a black tile (just below
the "OW" logo) of the chequered floor has a slight lack of colour.
(See the picures of Karen's and mine.)
On the other hand, it seems the Drei Eichen deck doesn't.
I wonder if this will be a clue...
This is becoming quite a detective story! Yes, I noticed that my deck also has that fault in the tile - it looks like there was a mark on the plate. Mine are definitely not printed on yellow paper either. But WHY do my cards have those lines and marks and yours don't? I think your conclusion about where they came from is really interesting - and correct - but it seems odd to print over such a table. Ideally, I could try to find out more about the original owner of my cards - as I say, they came with two other very old decks (that we didn't buy - too expensive), one of which was a hand-drawn set of Majors, clearly done by someone who knew something of esoteric tarot.
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| Teheuti |
16 May 2005 |
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Mary:
Or else yours may be a "Drei Eichen Verlag" set ---
In "LA PAPESSE" card of the Original Wirth deck, a black tile (just below
the "OW" logo) of the chequered floor has a slight lack of colour.
(See the picures of Karen's and mine.)
On the other hand, it seems the Drei Eichen deck doesn't.
I wonder if this will be a clue...
Thank you so much for finding this. Yes - that's the deck I have. The tile is solid black and the colors match the website. The paper is almost the same color as a manila folder - just very slightly more yellow.
Mary
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| kenji |
16 May 2005 |
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This is becoming quite a detective story! Yes, I noticed that my deck also has that fault in the tile - it looks like there was a mark on the plate. Mine are definitely not printed on yellow paper either. But WHY do my cards have those lines and marks and yours don't? I think your conclusion about where they came from is really interesting - and correct - but it seems odd to print over such a table. Ideally, I could try to find out more about the original owner of my cards - as I say, they came with two other very old decks (that we didn't buy - too expensive), one of which was a hand-drawn set of Majors, clearly done by someone who knew something of esoteric tarot.
:)
The same "fault in the tile" also appears in L'AIGLE reproduction.
Seen from the reverse side, my plates have the drawing lines a bit IN RELIEF.
Maybe they were printed with relatively high pressure.
(The material is rather thin, as I wrote before.)
So, the "table" may well have been printed on the reverse side of your
BATELEUR. (It's only my guess...)
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| baba-prague |
16 May 2005 |
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I think we probably have the same decks (if I understand correctly you have a deck as well as the book?). Alex also noticed the raised lines and that's what made him wonder about the printing method. Looking at the pressure lines he actually thought it might have been done from some kind of rubber or wood rather than metal - do you happen to know exactly how it was printed?
When you think about it, it's odd that one of these decks is now in Japan and one in Prague!
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| kenji |
16 May 2005 |
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Thank you so much for finding this. Yes - that's the deck I have. The tile is solid black and the colors match the website. The paper is almost the same color as a manila folder - just very slightly more yellow.
I'm glad it seems I could be of some help to you:)
Now there may arise a problem. "WHY IN FRANCE?"
I found a description which may solve this problem in "A History of the
Occult Tarot 1870 - 1970" by R. Decker & M. Dummett.
It's about Elisabeth Haich's tarot book. (p346)
"...The French edition (1972) has a sleeve containing 22 trumps redrawn
from Wirth's 1926 Planches, and therefore have the fancy borders with
ideograms. The new printers appear to have been Drei Eichen Verlag, Munich.
(S. Kaplan 1990, pp. 545-6, says that such a pack, from the same press,
was issued circa 1986. S. Kaplan does not say whether this pack
accompanied a book.)"
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| kenji |
16 May 2005 |
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I think we probably have the same decks (if I understand correctly you have a deck as well as the book?). Alex also noticed the raised lines and that's what made him wonder about the printing method. Looking at the pressure lines he actually thought it might have been done from some kind of rubber or wood rather than metal - do you happen to know exactly how it was printed?
When you think about it, it's odd that one of these decks is now in Japan and one in Prague!
I don't have the slightest idea as to the printing method:(
I bought this book from a bookseller in America.
France to America, then to Japan --- quite worldwide!:)
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| jmd |
17 May 2005 |
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errr.... sorry to interrupt, but it seems only to have made it around the northern hemisphere.
Any chance it may now travel due south :D:D:D
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| Terrie |
17 May 2005 |
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The cards pictured in the above link are exactly the same as the current De L'aigle deck except for the color of the background stock. This may mean that the De L'aigle deck must have initially used the plates from the Drei-Eichen deck.
These cards are very different in color quality from Karen's deck and the illustrations on one or two of the linked sites from this forum. The colors are modern flat tones, there's more of an over-all red tinge, and the delicate irregularities in color and texture are lacking in these two decks.
However, the drawings are exactly like Karen's so some kind of overlay or photography was used to duplicate Wirth's drawings exactly. But apparently modern printing couldn't duplicate the pleasing subtleties of the original deck.
I may be leaving out some personal decks discussed in this forum. There are so many pages now, and I don't have time to go back and read them all.
Terrie
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| baba-prague |
17 May 2005 |
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errr.... sorry to interrupt, but it seems only to have made it around the northern hemisphere.
Any chance it may now travel due south :D:D:D
Well, my deck seems to have been in Prague since shortly after its printing (and yes, it would be fascinating to know more, and find out whose house it came from) and I don't think it will be moving from this city now. However, I would be very happy to supply good quality scans to anyone (er, well, within limits - it takes ages to send something large like this) who wants them for historical purposes.
I have to say that I am now counting pennies and wondering if I should go back and buy the hand-drawn Majors that were with this deck - seems slightly bad to have split them up. I'd never use the hand-drawn ones though, but I suspect there is quite some history to them.
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| Terrie |
17 May 2005 |
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... I would be very happy to supply good quality scans to anyone (er, well, within limits - it takes ages to send something large like this) who wants them for historical purposes.
I have to say that I am now counting pennies and wondering if I should go back and buy the hand-drawn Majors that were with this deck - seems slightly bad to have split them up. I'd never use the hand-drawn ones though, but I suspect there is quite some history to them.
Karen, I don't have the money now, but I will by the end of June. If you're willing to do the printing, I'd be very happy to pay you for copies of your deck including the colored ink, paper and shipping to the U.S. Especially if the deck can be printed on very good partly cloth paper with some texture. Also, I'd want you to allow for profit for yourself, as printing a good copy of the deck involves work and time.
Are those hand-drawn cards in the shop the Worth deck or some other deck? Sounds like a good idea to buy the cards if you can.
Terrie
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| baba-prague |
17 May 2005 |
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Terrie, I'm really sorry, I didn't actually mean we'd print the deck. I'd love to, but it would just take too much time right now to do it properly and we have a lot of deadlines this summer. I'll just say this here in case anyone thinks that's what I'm suggesting. I'm in a slight panic in case there is a deluge - stop, stop!!
BUT, maybe later in the year or sometime we can run off half a dozen copies or something - that might be more time-effective (IF they are fully out of copyright of course, I'd need to check that first.) We can pm - I'll try to at least do something if it's possible. What I really meant was that we could send a few decent scans (of a few cards) for anyone doing historical research and who needs to see the originals - I'm sorry, I should have been more clear.
However, the other deck. Yes, it is supposed to have been drawn by a locally very well-known artist here, but there is no real proof. It isn't by Wirth. It's a somewhat erotic set of Majors, but with The Fool missing. In fact, it's well drawn and an interesting thing, but expensive (because of the apparent artistic connection - which I think the seller really believes is correct - the style does in fact fit.) There was also a very curious Minors-only Egyptian themed deck, printed on paper in black and white and obviously old. Not of as much interest to me, but perhaps of interest to a historian. I assume the Majors had been lost? All in all, it was a very interesting little cluster of decks. We were incredibly lucky though, as we saw the three just a couple of hours after they came into the shop - and just managed to buy the Wirth before someone else. One of those very fortunate things.
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| Terrie |
17 May 2005 |
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Terrie, I'm really sorry, I didn't actually mean we'd print the deck. I'd love to, but it would just take too much time right now to do it properly and we have a lot of deadlines this summer.
That's O.K., Karen. I guess I was thinking of some kind of photocopying on a good color copy machine. 'Print' was the wrong word to use. Anyhow, you have a wonderful deck there. After reading what you just wrote about the other deck in the shop...I don't know. It doesn't sound so great now, but the Wirth deck is indeed a prize.
Terrie
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| baba-prague |
18 May 2005 |
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I don't think a photocopy would capture the gold, it would come out as brown. I think the only way to reproduce would be to do some kind of proper print using gold ink - and as I say, that's just too much for us to take on at the moment. But I'll keep it in mind of course.
I must be giving the impression that Prague is awash in historical tarot decks, but that isn't the case at all - I only wish it was. Still, since finding this I do try to keep my eyes open in antique and junk shops :-)
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| Terrie |
18 May 2005 |
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I don't think a photocopy would capture the gold, it would come out as brown. I think the only way to reproduce would be to do some kind of proper print using gold ink - and as I say, that's just too much for us to take on at the moment. But I'll keep it in mind of course...
I don't at all mind the brown color. That's the way the gold shows up on my computer screen. It's the textures and subtle colors that I find so interesting, and these do show up well from your scans. So if you ever get the inspiration, I'd be happy with photocopies. (The gold color in the modern decks shows up as a sickly yellow-green screen color.)
Terrie
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The Er - is this a 1927 Oswald Wirth or am I dreaming? thread was originally posted on 30 Sep 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.
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