LS "Native American" Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Sep 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Cerulean	23 Sep 2004
Of the new Lo Scarabeo tarots, I thought I was going to just study the Atlantis and Lee's tarot, but I received this one unexpectedly. It's an art theme deck. I know like the Atlantis, this is a pure fantasy deck...and the images and differences in this deck is so beautiful. I was wondering if those who liked the Vision Quest might have also looked at this deck? This deck has two additional cards, Mother Earth and Father Sky. So it is an 80 card deck. There are many animals depicted here that are also native to California and artifacts named in this deck that I've seen written about in museums in cultural context... The colors are in rich harvest tones. One gorgeous scene is the Knave of Wands lying in sleep, with butterflies flying as if caught in a 'dreamcatcher'---the deck tries to illustrate storytelling concepts from various Native American cultures in a romantic, beautiful way. I read Laura Tuan's translated notes and she describes the concepts with respect and poetically... I'm not certain what others think of this art theme deck, but I was going to use it to remind me of lovely collections that I have from California Native American cultural stories--there were 20 or more different Native American tribal nations in the California areas alone. When travelling around the state, my husband and I try to visit the local Spanish missions, botanical garden and historical sites to understand a little more of the various cultures that settled here... If one is uneasy or does not like using this theme with tarot, the thread below does discuss some opinions: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22755&highlight=reservations+of+vision+quest

Cerulean	24 Sep 2004
I'll change or add as I find scans on the web. http://www.tarotpassages.com/nativeamertuanpo.htm

RedMaple	24 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Cerulean ---the deck tries to illustrate storytelling concepts from various Native American cultures in a romantic, beautiful way. I'm not certain what others think of this art theme deck, but I was going to use it to remind me of lovely collections that I have from California Native American cultural stories--there were 20 or more different Native American tribal nations in the California areas alone. When travelling around the state, my husband and I try to visit the local Spanish missions, botanical garden and historical sites to understand a little more of the various cultures that settled here... If one is uneasy or does not like using this theme with tarot, the thread below does discuss some opinions: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22755&highlight=reservations+of+vision+quest I have read the earlier thread-- I read it when it was originally posted, and was somewhat heartsick at many of the replies. I have thought a lot about how to respond to the issue of Native American "theme" decks in a way that will help people understand why so many Native people find this type of thing offensive. You describe the deck as a "fantasy" deck - and indeed it is, but not in any good sense of the word "fantasy." It is a romanticized, feel-good deck, and has no connection to real Native people, their histories, their stories. So if you feel that it will tie you to that in any way, you are mistaken. Let me try to be clear. Some of us here were not meant to survive. There was a holocaust on this continent, that has continued through to present-day. How many of you who like Native American imagery know that there was forced sterilization of Navajo women, and women of other Nations, right through the 1980's? That there were eugenics experiments on Abenaki people in the 1930's in Vermont? That those missions in California were a major tool in wiping out Native culture and Native peoples? How can you so easily write "there were 20 or more different Native tribal Nations...." as if that is normal? Were? Where did they go? Do you know how many Native people there are in California in 2004? Or what their history has been -- not in the distant past, but in their parents' and grandparents' lives, and their own? The romanticized images are offensive to us because they are lies, they allow people to feel good about something that was and is horrifying. It is as if Germans were allowed to feel good about all those Jews, they had such a quaint and colorful culture, too bad they're all gone now. Would you not be horrified by that? Or why not have a slavery deck, with lots of smiling Aunt Jemimas and Uncle Toms taking care of white babies, and Uncle Remus stories....would that be allright? (Fifty years ago, that wouldn't have been seen as offensive by most white Americans.) The Native American images seem allright because America is used to these images, the "taming of the wild west" and the "thanksgiving Indian story" are very potent American myths. I was amazed in the earlier thread that people justified their use of Native Spirituality by saying that no one could tell them what to do in regards to their own spiritual development. While that is true, it is a very non-Native way to think about it .... I ask you, can anyone's spiritual development be helped by images that lie? I know some of the images are appealing -- but ask who is benefitting. It is not Native people. If you are interested in Native people, educate yourselves on the issues. I suggest "Indians R Us" by Ward Churchill as a place to begin. Or if you like poetry, check out Joy Harjo, Simon Ortiz, the Harper Anthology of Native American Poetry. In our traditions, knowledge comes with responsibilities. If you are not willing to take on responsibility for real knowledge, and for justice, then there are some hard questions you need to ask yourself about why you would choose these cards. I hope that Tarot users, because they know just how powerful images are, will carefully consider who may be harmed by some of these theme decks.

Cerulean	25 Sep 2004
I am not using this as a spiritual deck. I am sorry that this was a bad topic to post. Thank you for your detailed answer. Everything you write is absolutely true. And I am sorry that I wrote too generically. The language patterns of Native Americans in California in a storytelling book by the wife of anthropologist Alfred Kroeber only identified a few of the many distinct tribal cultures. Since then I've been trying to find something better than this children's storytelling book and my anthropology book on California Native American cultures. Thank you for your kind and thoughtful answer. Cerulean P.S. A gentleman vistor last year at the Santa Cruz Mission who was half Native-American told me about his disappointment that there was not more about their history posted, as in a few of the other historic areas he had visited. At some Mission sites, such as Purisma near Solvang, he had seen more information and it's on the Purisma website. His wife was a schoolteacher who taught the same grades as my brother and there is an elementary school requirement to spend time on Native American history in California. Both he and his wife was interested when I spoke of Alfred Kroeber and how teachers had recommended books by Scott O Dell and Theodora Kroeber when we were young. Again you are right, we as children or young students were introduced to romantic fantasies such as "The Inland Whale" series of stories and "Island of the Blue Dolphins." Two Native American engineers at different times have spoken to me about their lack of family history and was interested that I had closeness with mine. The older one said unfortunately his exact ancestry was lost because of the "Trail of Tears" had mixed many of the cultures together and he never asked about his grandparents origins. The younger one was actually from Arizona and said a similar thing. They were both curious and interested that I had closeness to my grandparental origins. One of the reasons I was interested is my brother keeps recommended books of different cultures and romanticized tales in his elementary school classroom. I am researching the California Native American titles on the web for better and more informative story collections.

RedMaple	25 Sep 2004
Dear Cerulean, Thank you for your thoughtful reply. For Native American stories for children, you might look at these collections by Joseph Bruchac, "Keepers of the Earth," "Keepers of the Animals," etc. He is Abenaki, and a good storyteller. These are all available on Amazon. They are not specifically California, but have stories from all over North America that are authentic. He also ties the stories in to environmental activities. I believe Janice Gould and Elizabeth Woody are California Natives poets. Greg Sarris writes of contemporary Native life in California in his novel, Grand Avenue, also made into a video, probably available at video stores. (Edited to include these resources) This site has lists of Native American authors, poets, and storytellers. http://www.hanksville.org/storytellers/ You can also get an excellent catalogue that includes fiction, non-fiction, poetry, children's books, storytelling and music tapes from: The Greenfield Review Literary Center. PO Box 308 Greenfield Center, NY 12833 (V)(V) 518-583-1440 . I am glad we are able to have this conversation. RedMaple

Cerulean	25 Sep 2004
Many of the other links that I came across had outdated or similar books to the recommendations from the 1980s-style of 'teacher education' resources. The link you provided has a list of resources that I have not come across yet. Thank you again! Cerulean

RedMaple	25 Sep 2004
It is a great site -- spread the news. I'm sure there are lots of other people out there who'd like the real deal. :) RedMaple

firemaiden	22 Oct 2004
I'm interested in this deck, and would love to know more about it.

punchinella	23 Oct 2004
I think the artwork in this deck looks beautiful. I have a real problem with anyone saying "artwork such as this: _____ [fill in the blank] has no right to exist."

RedMaple	24 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella I think the artwork in this deck looks beautiful. I have a real problem with anyone saying "artwork such as this: _____ [fill in the blank] has no right to exist." This is edited from my first angry outburst: Hi Pip, No one is saying you don't have a right to say what you want. That is a kind of knee-jerk reaction that people have to being asked to consider the effect of an image, particularly in a politically sensitive area. If someone in a marginalized group tells me that something is offensive, I am going to think twice before using or supporting that image. What I am saying is, if you're wearing a swastika on your arm, don't pretend it's harmless. I've already commented plenty on this. I'm a poet and a writer, so I am against censorship. But I am for responsibility, and for making the world a better place, and for trying to tell the truth. RedMaple

firemaiden	24 Oct 2004
Red Maple, have you seen the Native American Tarot? I just bought it in a liberal Berkeley Bookstore. I think the artwork is exquisite. It is not so much about life of the different peoples but about their mythology, and it seems to have been carefully researched, and done very respectfully. The same painter did a deck on the mythology of the Vikings, which I love. My favourite card here is the ten of chalices, it shows a badger scaling a very tall tree. The perspective is vertiginous. I don't see this as a "feel-good" deck. I see it more as an art deck.

RedMaple	24 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Red Maple, have you seen the Native American Tarot? I just bought it in a liberal Berkeley Bookstore. I think the artwork is exquisite. It is not so much about life of the different peoples but about their mythology, and it seems to have been carefully researched, and done very respectfully. The same painter did a deck on the mythology of the Vikings, which I love. I don't see this as a "feel-good" deck. I see it more as an art deck. I have seen enough of it on-line, and my problems with this deck, and others like it, stand. It seems that the art you describe as "exquisite" makes you feel good, no? :) Please check out the threads and links. I've said enough. RedMaple

firemaiden	24 Oct 2004
I don't understand the link you make between "feeling good" and interesting art. Nor what the problem would be with feeling good.

RiccardoLS	25 Oct 2004
It is a bit difficult for me to enter on this subject mainly because I live on a no-time left status of existence, but also as I don't know from what position talk about this deck. In the end I think I would just express my Riccardo opinion. I have read with interest the comment by Red Maple, and I have asked myself a few questions. In the end, I don't agree. There has been a similar issue regarding the Gay Tarot. One of our distributors refused to trade it as the very idea of the deck was "offensive" to Gay. I could understand... if You need a Gay deck You are saying that Gay are different and they are discriminated. Yet I didn't agree. For the Native American people, there are two ways You could approach on their spirituality... ignore it, or don't ignore it. If You don't ignore it, You will look for it, You will try to "receover" as much as You can, to "translate" in your language... and will eventually (there is no escape) contaminate it. Contaminate it because for You it will have necessarily a total different feel and place in your life and thought. Or You can ignore it, and let it to Native American shamans. What is the right choice? I can understand - very well, I think - how a Native may feel seeing violated and misunderstood (to any extent) the hearth of his culture. But would he prefer that everything his culture has will be ignored? Or said in a different way... Could he say that "non-believers" have no right to address or learn their customs? It was a similar dilemma, when I visited Belfast. Should I go to the Catholic Side of the city and see with my eyes what it was like. Or should I respect their privacy and stay large. I went (that's the same choice I would have done with the Native American) and I went (as far as it was possible with respect). There have been people probably hurt for being a tourist sight to me. And people that were happy they were not unnoticed in the world. And happy that I could at least understand a part of it. As usual it is my clumsy English... :( I hope it makes sense. Riccardo

jmd	25 Oct 2004
In many ways, there is indeed a difficulty in using imagery that more or less caricatures a culture and is appropriated by another and superimposed on yet another cultural construct - in this case Tarot. Not being someone that identifies with a group that the past has seen to want to obliterate, I cannot directly comment on that aspect. What is, however, undoubtedly also the case, is that the images for this deck were also sensitively selected and made, and also that it may bring many towards a greater appreciation and understanding not because of what is presented in the given imagery, but because as to where it leads that person into further individual research - irrespective as to their genetic makeup. In some ways, we could all ask whether also the Tarot being appropriated in non-Christian ways is legitimate - and I would hope that we think it is. Any imagery that deals with non-mediaeval and non-european cultures, whether clearly or not, will have 'mis-applied' the imagery to Tarot. Yet, I personally do not find fault in that, and there will certainly be, I would suggest, people who think likewise irrespective of their genetic mix. As I wrote some time back in the thread previously linked (Reservations re Vision Quest), 'The purpose, however, may not be to seek to understand the other culture, but rather a celebration of a love for both the Tarot and what one may see reflected of similar forms in various stereotypical cultural settings . When this syncretic work arises, it will of course suit neither the 'purists' of the Tarot world, nor the 'purists' or anthropological ethnographers of the culture depicted.' If we are to accept and encourage any form of eclecticism and syncretism (each of which I personally would encourage), then certain mis-representations will as a consequence arise in the various developments that follow. That some of my relatives may have been killed by others wearing a swastika does not mean that I would not want to associate with this image, which after all is not, never was, nor never will, remain the sole property of those who seek to control. Likewise any other spirituality - it is not the property of a group of genetically connected individuals (except perhaps in the books of legal firms), but the spiritual well from which we each and all need to be able to freely and deeply quench our thirst... even if our drinking cups are differently shaped.

WalesWoman	14 Feb 2005
I just recieved this deck this morning as a Valentine present...the artwork is beautiful, but while looking at through it I realized it does represent that "romantic" vision of indigenous peoples, that had nothing to do at all with the reality at all of who they really are. Scenes are depicted of various nations, some so intermingled that I knew right off, these people didn't have a clue...just generalized imaginings of what it is about. I can't claim to know myself...other than what I have learned along the way...mostly the "great White way" Don't be offended Red Maple, I agree wholeheartedly with your objections and find myself outraged and ashamed of my white heritage, not much has changed in the past 400 years, just got more sophisticated in the way it's accomplished. I'm also sure you are sick of blondes saying how proud they are of their "Indian" ancestory, like it makes them special or someone to identify with...but oh what the heck. I am and I am, I figure mother's blood is stronger than the father's and understood finally when the "family secret" was revealed to me when I was 22, why ever since I could remember I felt like a stranger in a strange land and why this world I live in now is so uncomprehensible at times. Like I had woken up in the wrong place in time in the wrong century, everything is so alien. But back to this deck, I'm trying to figure out how to read with it. It says it's a meditative deck...wish it had a companion book because the LWB...is a whole hodgepodge of stuff. It all sounds good, but it sort of reminds me of the Faery Wicca Tarot/Celtic/hodepodge with all sorts of made up stuff with extra cards to really mess you up. Someone's fantasy of what they would like it to be in a world called "Perfect", since it isn't, they created one. I just am not going to mention to my sweetie, who thought he was doing something really special for me...I'm not sure if I can use this.

firemaiden	14 Feb 2005
Perhaps it would go over better with a new name, like "mythologies from North America". Perhaps not every people indiginous to America had the same legends... but maybe there are some themes which are nevertheless common or at least similar in all? I think the deck attemps to depict the natural environment of North America, and some of the ways in which the native peoples experienced it as sacred. The cups and the swords depict animals. I really love the fire-carrying coyote on the knave of swords. The LWB tells us he is the light bringer and the border crosser : he is "the messenger who brings prayers of man to the gods and brings man the fire that it took from the Great Spirit through trickery and astuteness". The pentacles depict plants, and natural objects found in North America; the wands depict objects: the peace pipe, the drum, the arrow, the mask, etc. In each case the LWB tries to briefly explain their sacred significance, and their place in mythology. In this way, the deck speaks of ways of seeing sacredness in everyday life. Perhaps it can communicate reverence for the earth and its creatures. I understand the revulsion at seeing an inaccurate or romanticised portrayal, however, I think the deck was put together from a perspective of love and admiration for a spirituality which has much to teach us. P.S. I think one can read with it, as an "oracle deck".

WalesWoman	20 Feb 2005
I don't think you could rename this deck and ever get it right...sorry. I'm not a total buff on all of this, but Kokopelli for Magician was a good match. But the artist had no clue at all what he was doing. That is what bothers people, ok? He is presented here as one of the plains people, wearing the eagle feathered headdress of the Lakota or Cheyenne...Not the flute player trickster of the Navajo, Zuni or Hopi nations. It's all stereotypes and not even close to anything that was at all. The northwest coast peoples had totem poles and beautiful cedar houses, not tipi's. Their clothing was very distinctive, woven cedar cloth most often, since leather in raincountry even if it's smoked to be water repellant...tends to stretch and slimeout and doesn't last long. That's not to say it wasn't used, but looked more like layers of short capes and skirts to keep the rain off and their arms free. I've spent a lot of time studiying these things, learning as much as I can from many disciplines, because I had my own theories about the migration of the first people that didn't agree at all with the accepted one that they all crossed the Bering Ice Bridge and Glacier corredors through Canada and then south. I've read histories and mythologies and what ever I could get my hands on...this deck is pure fantasy. The meanings of the cards may be useful for meditations, but honestly? I don't think so. I decided to try to be fair to this deck and tried to read with it...not happening at all. I don't know what it is, but it isn't Tarot.

firemaiden	20 Feb 2005
Oh well...

RedMaple	20 Feb 2005
Waleswoman, You're exactly right. Thanks for the great critique and examples of just what's wrong with the deck. Good work. wliwni (Thank you) RedMaple

Logiatrix	20 Feb 2005
Yep, I know what you mean, WalesWoman. I, too, had difficulty with this deck. The art is stunning, but it is not a deck I can read with. That's basically because of how the symbolism didn't connect to the system I'm used to reading. I'm also quite comfortable with the decks I already use, so I didn't work too hard at reading with this one. However, I did not take it's theme personally. I've seen this discussion before, about the several different Native American themed decks, and I had very mixed views for a long time. I've come to a perspective that these decks are useful for pointing to much bigger issues; perhaps, then, they still have their place. I was not offended by the imagery portrayed in the deck, and half of me comes from the heritage of the Pascua Yaqui (my mother was one of seven children, and the first in her family to be born north of the Gila River). I have a brown mother who is clearly of the land of her parents, and I am from her. I have witnessed firsthand plenty of offensive behaviors when it comes to how Indians are stereotyped. I also have friends and colleagues who are Hopi, Navajo, and White Mountain Apache, and I've heard other tribal representatives speak at various functions on important tribal issues. The focus of discussion is not about image; it's about getting their children educated, creating solid industries, and improving a very poor healthcare system. They are leaders at various levels who are striving to put hope back into their own people. Youth on reservations often do not graduate from high school, and then go on to remain jobless. Alcholism is a severe problem amongst the Native American population; lack of resources on the reservations perpetuates this. Also, there are many families on reservations who live so remotely from clinics or hospitals, that they will commonly suffer serious illnesses left untreated. Others simply do not trust the Anglo ways, and speak only their own language, and therefore remain isolated as well. Those wrongful images of the mythic Indian are reminders of work that needs to be done. I'm not saying that the misrepresentation of Indian art, rituals, and tribal histories is not a real problem, I agree that it is. But the local leaders of many of the larger tribes here also know that educated Native Americans, who are finally told they can go to college, will have the power to preserve the art, rituals, and history of their people. That is the image of Native American that I recognize. They are activists who have worked hard to become professors, politicians, and business persons; I also know many students seeking those same leadership roles. I see my friends getting degrees, getting politically involved, and seeking to improve the Nations in the areas of education, health, revenue, and political strength. Lack of action on those greater issues is more likely to degrade the image of Native American than little pictures on cardboard. PEACE, L.

WalesWoman	22 Feb 2005
Logiatrix, I agree with you too, and see this where I live from one spectrum to the other. There are much more important things than images on paper, but for some darn reason it's the little unimportant things that can seem to have a longer, larger stupid influence on people's perceptions. So many people are lost and in search of roots that no longer exist and make up something to cling to and believe in and what is scarier is when they try to force or coerce or convince those questionable beliefs on others. I am a white woman with brown grandmothers (and grandfather's too) and had to laugh when I was accused of thinking like a White person...I know it was intended to insult me, but it was because I wasn't willing to accept something wrong dressed up in "traditional" trappings. heyoke If you are sure of yourself and what you believe in, things like this are dismissable and unimportant, but I think for others who think this is "walking in beauty"...they are on the wrong path and can have their minds messed with badly, not from this Tarot, but that whole New Age hodgepodge neo-Native Tradition spirituality. I've known lots of wannabe shamans too. The one who mess with minds and the ones who are really messed up because of it or just gave them the tap over the edge. I don't think I'm taking this personally, just spouting my thoughts and observations. If you want to see me get radical...say Bush and Democracy in the same sentance. I have a few issues with Legends...but to be honest, I know even less about Druids and the Celtic/Scots side of my heritage. LOL

RedMaple	22 Feb 2005
WalesWoman and Logiatrix, What a relief to see such an intelligent discussion of the issues -- and yes, there are bigger issues, different in different areas of Indian Country. But I agree with WW that the perceptions that people carry of Indian people are important, and have a direct effect on those other issues -- because if all peple are carrying around are stereotypes and images that are inaccurate, how are they going to vote on the right sides of issues. I am an Abenaki woman, my mother was French, my father French-Indian. I look pretty white to most of the world. But we know who we are and how we've survived, and what our issues are as a people. Friends from other Nations all over North America also find this issue one that won't go away and some of those people who are now teaching in universities, writing, making art, etc. are confronting them daily. It will take some work to replace the media images of Native people with real images of real Indian people. But will they recognize us without feathers and beads? :)

NightWing	24 Feb 2005
I think I understand what RedMaple and others have been saying here. Yes, this "Native American" tarot deck is a fantasy version of white/European ideas of North American native peoples. There have been other "Indian" decks that were similarly a fantasy. But I think a few points have been missed here. (1) Tarot itself is a European form of divination that has nothing to do with native North American realities, past or present. The particular "theme" is just that; no more. (2) Other "themes" like Vikings, Druids, Egyptians, Celts, Arthurians, or the Renaissance, are also just fantasy images, and bear no more resemblance to any historical reality than do these "native" tarot decks. But they are ALL Euro-myths, not Native American ones. In this sense, the Druidcraft or the Norse tarots are as realistic in their depictions as the Fairy-based tarots or the Dragon-based ones...which is to say, not at all. It is all just fantasy that is pleasing to a euro-centric frame of mind, sensibility, and way of thinking. (3) Which raises a question: why would anyone of non-European background and/or culture (and proud of it) want to use such a euro-centric and culturally-specific artifact as a Tarot deck? Not that they can't or don't have the right to do what they want. But why complain about a European artifact for being just that: European?

WolfSpirit	24 Feb 2005
NightWing wrote: (2) Other "themes" like Vikings, Druids, Egyptians, Celts, Arthurians, or the Renaissance, are also just fantasy images, and bear no more resemblance to any historical reality than do these "native" tarot decks. But they are ALL Euro-myths, not Native American ones. In this sense, the Druidcraft or the Norse tarots are as realistic in their depictions as the Fairy-based tarots or the Dragon-based ones...which is to say, not at all. It is all just fantasy that is pleasing to a euro-centric frame of mind, sensibility, and way of thinking. I don't agree the DruidCraft would just be fantasy images. The three people who worked together on this deck are all druids themselves (Chief, Scribe and Pendragon of the order). The ancient druids did not use tarot, but they were definitely into divination, maybe in combination with numerology. So modern druids moving on to tarot is just the next step. I don't think any druids feel misrepresented by this deck, although they will not all choose to use it - just as many non-druids want to use this deck and can do so without further study. Sorry if I took the discussion away from the Native American, but I just wanted to voice my opinion here :)

RedMaple	26 Feb 2005
NightWing wrote: I think I understand what RedMaple and others have been saying here. Yes, this "Native American" tarot deck is a fantasy version of white/European ideas of North American native peoples. There have been other "Indian" decks that were similarly a fantasy. But I think a few points have been missed here. (1) Tarot itself is a European form of divination that has nothing to do with native North American realities, past or present. The particular "theme" is just that; no more. (2) Other "themes" like Vikings, Druids, Egyptians, Celts, Arthurians, or the Renaissance, are also just fantasy images, and bear no more resemblance to any historical reality than do these "native" tarot decks. But they are ALL Euro-myths, not Native American ones. In this sense, the Druidcraft or the Norse tarots are as realistic in their depictions as the Fairy-based tarots or the Dragon-based ones...which is to say, not at all. It is all just fantasy that is pleasing to a euro-centric frame of mind, sensibility, and way of thinking. (3) Which raises a question: why would anyone of non-European background and/or culture (and proud of it) want to use such a euro-centric and culturally-specific artifact as a Tarot deck? Not that they can't or don't have the right to do what they want. But why complain about a European artifact for being just that: European? The difference is that unlike Vikings or Ancient Egyptians, the indigenous peoples of the Americas are still here, still fighting for justice, and images that contribute to a misunderstanding of their lives and histories are not harmless fantasies. I don't have a problem with a European artifact being European, I have trouble with it when dresses up in fake Indian spirituality.

Cerulean	26 Feb 2005
(3A) Which raises a question: why would anyone of non-European background and/or culture (and proud of it) want to use such a euro-centric and culturally-specific artifact as a Tarot deck? (3B) Not that they can't or don't have the right to do what they want. But why complain about a European artifact for being just that: European? (3A) Nightwing's question, Part I I go backwards to Dante Algheri's poetry and the Visconti versions of the Tarocchi for my metaphor... Why did the Italian gambling game of Northern Italian culture have attraction to other regions of Italy and other European city states? Italian and French is said to have been the court languages stemming from Latin roots of even the Anglo Saxon English: Chaucer is said to be have been so enchanted in his travels with the vernacular poetry of Dante Algheri, Petrarch and Boccaccio, that in his writings, he used and referenced this information. What freshness and joy he must have felt to find something old to others, yet new to him and his creative use of the vernacular. Of course people strong in their ancestral roots and literary references are enchanted by novelty and folklore--and at that time, what we call classic was a lovely innovation that he was carrying over. And I, too, having found many items of enjoyment from popular expressions of an ancestral culture, was pleased and surprised to have found different folkloric and popular culture icons of the Japanese taken in tarot form. This was in the now out of print U.S. Games and Japanese Angel Playing Cards collaboration of the Ukiyo-e--it was funny, well-done and had an unusually nice booklet. Of course when I also found poetry and European Renaissance culture links to trumps and tarocchi, it was delightful and I took evening classes in these topics--because of where I am, how I was schooled, the historical writings of C.S. Lewis led me to explore this more, in context. The Western metaphors that come from Dante, Petrarch and Boccaccio also translate well in my balances in the modern day, so I continue these studies. Many Western-trained poets or art historians of different ancestral backgrounds find meaning in such different things, even find delight... (3B) But why... Well, the difference in the Ukiyo-e' Tarot case is actually a Japanese artist and the publishing company actually did something that not only became a tribute, but was an interesting expression of popular folklore and charm. This deck might be a cliche of popular icons, but it hints at deeper roots; the Portugese-Nagasaki gambling card games from the 1600 had Western roots and became a Japanese fixture over time. There are seasonal references that are very much in tune with the agricultural, poetic roots of Asian culture, and my people were from agrarian backgrounds with appreciation for seasonal poetry. However this deck is now out of print, so perhaps it's time has also past, as more are interested in the new folklore of Asian anime and tarot. Asian fusion tarots that I see nowadays are softer, less geometric and harsh. It sounds like to me that tarots work well with Asian fusion. But there other cultural populations who do not appreciate, favor, sanction tarots infused with Old Worldish veils of illusion on their worlds. I understand that and can easily choose other styles of tarot for what I want to do. Hope that addresses your question... Regards, Cerulean

lelandra	02 Mar 2005
RedMaple wrote: The difference is that unlike Vikings or Ancient Egyptians, the indigenous peoples of the Americas are still here, still fighting for justice, and images that contribute to a misunderstanding of their lives and histories are not harmless fantasies. I don't have a problem with a European artifact being European, I have trouble with it when dresses up in fake Indian spirituality. I'm already on record with my overall thoughts on "Native American Tarots", both in the earlier quoted thread an on my site at http://www.lelandra.com/comptarot/tarotindian.htm (which I did expand and finesse as a result of the earlier thread) Since I'm just a few minutes from needing to shut down the computer, I'll just throw out a disconnected observation. There is an imperialist impulse within the action of dressing up as someone you have "conquered" that I think is part of the stew. Now, the European who creates a "Native American Tarot" isn't LITERALLY putting on buckskins and eagle feathers, but the drawings are doing so. It is sort of like a dog mounting another (when there is no reproduction intended). Or perhaps, a dog mounting your leg. It's an expression of dominance. Another disconnected observation - it's not whether you have so many drops of blood or genetic material, it's connection to a living community, participation in its events and some indicator of perhaps having been exposed to teachings of the community. This is why it is important when someone says "I'm from the such and such tribe". It happens among Europeans and EuroAmericans as well. Many Americans who have ancestors who emigrated during the Potato Famine come off just as ridiculous when they visit Ireland. It's not about the blood the way people think that it is. Lelandra (Joan Cole)

NightWing	10 Mar 2005
To RedMaple and others: The idea of Tarot being just one more artifact of European Imperialism is a very interesting one. The potential of that to offend Native Americans, and also the decendents of the Maya (further south) becomes more clear. There have been a number of North American "Indian" Tarots and Oracles, and several that were Mayan based. Many of us know of the various "Oriental" themed tarot decks as well, where similar questions could be raised. But what of Egyptian, Celtic, Viking, and other "themes"? There are clearly still decendents of each of these ancient peoples today, their ancestors being depicted fantastically on assorted Tarot and Oracle decks. Tarot is not native to their cultures. Their depictions are no more realistic than those of North American natives. It could be said that they are as misrepresented as native North Americans on various Tarots. Movements exist today for a rekindling of cultural and historic pride long denied these peoples as well, each of whom was suppressed by the dominance of another culture. My point here is that more than just North American native peoples have experienced oppression historically. And most of those have living descendents who are now striving to reclaim what was lost or taken from them. If it is offensive in the one case, surely it must be so for the others as well? So, to be culturally sensitive, perhaps Tarot decks should NEVER feature imagery drawn from the cultures (fantasized or otherwise) of peoples who once lived, and still do in their descendents. That would leave Tarotists with decks that are completely fabricated, like Fairy or Dragon decks, OR decks drawn by and emerging from a specific culture (which really means Italian or French Marseille-style decks). It is worth considering that perhaps a great many tarot decks are in fact culturally insensitive reminders of oppressive imperialism, and as such, should be done away with.

Dark Inquisitor	10 Mar 2005
I find a lot of decks contain all kinds of offensive stuff. For example, some depictions in Celtic decks look just like insulting cartoons meant to racially degrade the Irish from around the turn of 20th century that were published in newspapers. I suppose people who haven't seen those cartoons might not recognize the parallel, and to them it wouldn't jump out like it does for me. I don't think it was intentional , yet I still find it offensive. It is a lot easier for me to just ignore it however , because the Irish don't seem to be oppressed anymore in America. If they were living on reservations in horrible conditions after being nearly exterminated by the dominant culture, I would probably feel a lot different and be rewounded everytime I came into contact with it as part of the ongoing struggle. I also find a lot of decks to be full of pointless sexist images too. And a lot of fluffybunny bs that has a quietly insulting side. Whatever tarots exist are born out of the cultural mind, and it is showing us how full of crap we still are. What we want to do about it, what we can do about it, I don't know. I don't think it will be solved overnight . I can't tell Native Americans to just get over it , I can't tell them not to feel what they feel . I can't give advice how to fix it either. Maybe it can't be fixed. Maybe it can only be collectively evolved out of.

stella01904	10 Mar 2005
RedMaple wrote: Let me try to be clear. Some of us here were not meant to survive. There was a holocaust on this continent, that has continued through to present-day. How many of you who like Native American imagery know that there was forced sterilization of Navajo women, and women of other Nations, right through the 1980's? That there were eugenics experiments on Abenaki people in the 1930's in Vermont? That those missions in California were a major tool in wiping out Native culture and Native peoples? ...The romanticized images are offensive to us because they are lies, they allow people to feel good about something that was and is horrifying. It is as if Germans were allowed to feel good about all those Jews, they had such a quaint and colorful culture, too bad they're all gone now. Would you not be horrified by that? Or why not have a slavery deck, with lots of smiling Aunt Jemimas and Uncle Toms taking care of white babies, and Uncle Remus stories....would that be allright? (Fifty years ago, that wouldn't have been seen as offensive by most white Americans.) The Native American images seem allright because America is used to these images, the "taming of the wild west" and the "thanksgiving Indian story" are very potent American myths. MM ~ I only found these threads just now, and you have already said so much of what I wanted to say that I really can't add much. Only that so much has been taken away, and now people are helping themselves to Native American spirituality for fun & profit. Thank you, Red Maple! BB, Stella

stella01904	10 Mar 2005
NightWing wrote: (3) Which raises a question: why would anyone of non-European background and/or culture (and proud of it) want to use such a euro-centric and culturally-specific artifact as a Tarot deck? Not that they can't or don't have the right to do what they want. But why complain about a European artifact for being just that: European? MM ~ Speaking for myself, I am mixed, I try to work ALL my ancestors in someplace. I am a "lost bird" or "paper genocide", put up in a blind adoption and was raised in white society. I wasn't socialised properly. For me to come walking into a reservation now and say "I've been unable to find out what tribe I am but I'm some kind of Indian and I want to learn my religious practices" would be mortifying and insulting to me and everyone else. After years of agonizing and soul searching I have taken the ways of my european ancestors - the PAGAN ways. If there is a point of convergence, it is there. But one doesn't get it from a new-age mish-mash. BB, Stella

MercyMe	10 Mar 2005
Dark Inquisitor wrote: I also find a lot of decks to be full of pointless sexist images too. And a lot of fluffybunny bs that has a quietly insulting side. Whatever tarots exist are born out of the cultural mind, and it is showing us how full of crap we still are. Loved this observation, Dark Inquisitor. ~Mercy

RedMaple	11 Mar 2005
Stella, Thank you for your posts. I would welcome you, as I know many people would welcome "lost birds" -- but I know how difficult it is when you don't know what Nation you are from. And thank you for reminding me that I'd already said my piece on the Tarot issue. wliwni, (thank you) RedMaple

NightWing	11 Mar 2005
A big thank-you to Dark Inquisitor, Cerulean, RedMaple, Stella, and others for opening up an area of consideration I'd not really given serious thought to before. You've definately helped me clarify where I'm at on this whole issue of Tarot and cultural imperialism. There are some important issues here that members of the tarot community should grapple with, going considerably beyond responding to new decks with, "Oh, this is SO cute!", or "This made me feel my shamanic roots" (when that is not your culture at all). One reality is that we the tarot deck buyers determine what is on the market by what we spend our dollars on. Perhaps we need to make more educated choices. Another reality however, is that Tarot is at least in part about fantasy. There is no escaping that. Occult tarot has been that since the beginning. Tarotists respond to certain decks and certain card images for a number of reasons, amongst them is the fantasy of connecting to another time and another age and culture, no matter how ersatz that connection actually is. How we balance our need for fantasy with not offending others is a problem to be solved. I've always thought that there is nothing wrong with fantasy. In some cases, as long as it remains only fantasy. Psychologists claim we humans require it to be mentally healthy. Well, I (and they) could be wrong. It would seem to call into question the legitimacy of some of what we do in Tarot in the same way that some would call into question the legitimacy of porn or hate literature: if some find certain fantasy content offensive, what can/should be done about it?

stella01904	11 Mar 2005
RedMaple wrote: Thank you for your posts. I would welcome you, as I know many people would welcome "lost birds" -- but I know how difficult it is when you don't know what Nation you are from. MM ~ Thank you - I know that the People are more than generous, and many have offered suggestions for finding my Nation, but it is a long, hard and costly process. After years of searching I finally found my mother and her family, only to have them tell me we are "Black Dutch" http://www.rosecity.net/cherokee/blackdutch.html I am not trying to stray off-topic here but to drive home the point of how MUCH was taken, both tangible and non-tangible, in case anyone still thinks we are being overly touchy on this issue. Quote: And thank you for reminding me that I'd already said my piece on the Tarot issue. I wasn't trying to get you to be quiet! These things need to be repeated until people get it. BB, Stella

RedMaple	11 Mar 2005
NightWing wrote: A big thank-you to Dark Inquisitor, Cerulean, RedMaple, Stella, and others for opening up an area of consideration I'd not really given serious thought to before. You've definately helped me clarify where I'm at on this whole issue of Tarot and cultural imperialism. There are some important issues here that members of the tarot community should grapple with, going considerably beyond responding to new decks with, "Oh, this is SO cute!", or "This made me feel my shamanic roots" (when that is not your culture at all). One reality is that we the tarot deck buyers determine what is on the market by what we spend our dollars on. Perhaps we need to make more educated choices. True. If we don't buy the decks, they will disappear. So our educated choices will give us power to shape the Tarots of the future. Quote: Another reality however, is that Tarot is at least in part about fantasy. There is no escaping that. Occult tarot has been that since the beginning. Tarotists respond to certain decks and certain card images for a number of reasons, amongst them is the fantasy of connecting to another time and another age and culture, no matter how ersatz that connection actually is. How we balance our need for fantasy with not offending others is a problem to be solved. The occultists use of Kabbala is based on a similar exoticization of the Jews at a time when they were an oppressed group in Europe, and I have found it a dubious connection in any case. Likewise decks supposedly based in Romani, Gypsy, and other traditions. I agree this is a problem. I find it interesting that we have decks like the Fey that are trying to avoid the cultural imperialism issue. And the World Spirit has been perhaps the most successful multicultural deck, although some of the images are still a bit stereotyped. Quote: I've always thought that there is nothing wrong with fantasy. In some cases, as long as it remains only fantasy. Psychologists claim we humans require it to be mentally healthy. Well, I (and they) could be wrong. I don't think that fantasy necessarily has to be imperialistic. I think that Tarot may be evolving into a more intuitive, oracular form. People are responding to archetypal images as well as images of everyday life, and reading from the images rather than from an occult system. I think this is a healthy move away from the type of fantasy that builds a false system of belief about existing cultures other than our own, to an imaginative use of images as ways to read the collective unconscious or our own projections, or synchronicity, or whatever it is that's actually happening in our readings. Quote: It would seem to call into question the legitimacy of some of what we do in Tarot in the same way that some would call into question the legitimacy of porn or hate literature: if some find certain fantasy content offensive, what can/should be done about it? Yes, I think you are right. I think it's important to think about the choices we make in buying and using decks. We get to choose the fantasies, after all. I also look forward to more decks like the Fey, World Spirit, Gay, Golden. On the other hand, I think there are some decks like the Ukiyo-e and the Buddha Tarot that have great worth, although they deal with Asian rather than European art and spiritual traditions. Perhaps it is because both Buddhism and Ukiyo-e are open traditions. Buddhism exists now in all countries, and its teachings are available to all. Ukiyo-e was originally used as illustrations for travel advertisements, so it is an art style, one that presumably can be used as one would use cubism, without doing harm to the original culture. There's a lot to think about.

stella01904	14 Mar 2005
RedMaple wrote: ...Perhaps it is because both Buddhism and Ukiyo-e are open traditions. Buddhism exists now in all countries, and its teachings are available to all. MM ~ Joseph Campbell once said different religions were like different softwares, they're not always compatible with everything else and they use different "commands", but Buddhist practices are pretty universally compatible. I have also heard that some Buddhist dieties, like Green Tara, will work for anyone who calls them. So, I have to agree, it's probably okay to have a Buddhist tarot. ;) BB, Stella

Shade	24 Mar 2005
So this topic has me wondering about my Buckland Romani Tarot. It also painst a romanticised picture of a group of people who have been marginalized as far back as recorded history goes with them. It also makes use of stereotypes about the mysticism of the Romani people which probably does little to serve the culture. Hmmmmm I tried to rationalize it a bit, saying that it's not the same as the N.A. tarot but all of the reasons I come up with sound like I am just saying that because I like the deck and don't want to admit that it is probably pretty offensive.

WolfyJames	24 Mar 2005
If my memory serves me right, Raymond Bucland, the author of the Buckland Romani Tarot, is a real Romani himself and he does not have issues, it seems, sharing with everyone about his culture or beliefs, may it be Wicca or Romani.

NightWing	25 Mar 2005
Let's assume Buckland is in fact from a Romani/Gypsy background. That does not mean that he is representative of that people, or that what he has depicted is not offensive to large numbers of those people. Indeed, his willingness to "share" might be seen as the act of a traitor by some Romani. Elsewhere, I've seen several North American native "oracle" decks condemned in precisely those circumstances: that the "native" author/artist had offended the people they claimed to represent, and the creation of their particular deck is considered a betrayal of their own people. Do we let ourselves off the hook of cultural insensitivity so easily?

WolfyJames	25 Mar 2005
NightWing wrote: Let's assume Buckland is in fact from a Romani/Gypsy background. That does not mean that he is representative of that people, or that what he has depicted is not offensive to large numbers of those people. Indeed, his willingness to "share" might be seen as the act of a traitor by some Romani. Elsewhere, I've seen several North American native "oracle" decks condemned in precisely those circumstances: that the "native" author/artist had offended the people they claimed to represent, and the creation of their particular deck is considered a betrayal of their own people. Do we let ourselves off the hook of cultural insensitivity so easily? You say "might be seen", this is not a fact but a might, a possibility. Until all the Romani come here and do complain that Bucland is a traitor and his deck is crap, I don't see what the fuss is about. Frankly, I don't like this thread at all, it sickens me. The idea to destroy decks and to stop people's creativity (future decks) so not to hurt people's sensitivity, is very dangerous and very fondamentalist. I saw a documentary, talking about artists rejected because they were doing arts that were hurting the Church's sentivity and that it was still going on even nowadays. A female painter was shocked to see her painting, that was requested by the Church, rejected, because she painted Virgin Mary in labor. Many scientists were repressed and burned alive centurie ago because the new scientific discoveries were also hurting the Church's sensitivity. We don't do such things anymore, do you want to go back to the Middle-Ages? It was not called the Dark Ages for nothing. No matter what happens, or what we do, we will always hurt someone's sensitivity, it's life. We cannot spend our entire life locked inside our home wearing all the secure gear. We have to get out, live life, and it hurts. To destroy who they are, or what they do, is wrong. I believe artists are psychic and that when they create, they channel something that has to come out, has to become concrete. I don't like the way the IIIrd millenium is turning...

shadowdancer	25 Mar 2005
I have not posted on this thread as I felt somewhat unable to do so, especially being a relative newbie. I also felt that I was in the very small minority if I spoke out with a different view point. I guess in that respect I felt a little scared to be different, in case I was seen as being insensitive to those who felt genuinely grieved by the deck. The last thing I wanted to do was insult or offend anyone as I have no intention of doing so on such a sensitive issue. Having seen the above reply, I felt that I had held back and stayed silent out of fear, which is not a good thing to do. I have this deck in my collection, bought it out with the genuine intent of using it for the greatest of good. I have read many books on the subject of Native Americans and their spirituality. I have felt humbled and moved on many occasions, particularly when having sat and talked with a Native American friend of mine. When using these cards I have found them to be moving, evocative and very helpful in showing the way with aspects of my own spiritual growth, or that of others. Having seen this thread evolve, I asked myself if I had done wrong in buying them. Deep down I didn't think I had. I asked the same question of my guide, and was again guided to the fact that they were a valid addition to my collection. I felt saddened that this deck has been dismissed in the way it had when in fact I feel the artist did not have any intent to cause distress or bad feeling when creating the deck. Whereas I can understand how people feel about the issue, I would hate it if people felt they could not use the deck at all, particularly if they came from the same stance as I have. I hope this does not offend anyone, as I do not want to cause any bad feeling. However, I felt that I had been 'pressured' into staying silent which is not right, particularly as I only wanted to use the deck for the greatest of good. Too many people have stayed silent through fear, and I now realise that by doing so I was not being true to my heart or what I had been thinking. I hope this has made sense in some way. I do hate the way that we still have prejudice in this world, and that some groups of people are still being mistreated in terrible ways, sometimes by nations who try to portray a different light to the rest of the world. However, I did not feel that I was contributing to this when buying these cards, and will continue to use them with the integrity I hope I have shown to date. Davina

WolfyJames	25 Mar 2005
Shade wrote: So this topic has me wondering about my Buckland Romani Tarot. It also painst a romanticised picture of a group of people who have been marginalized as far back as recorded history goes with them. It also makes use of stereotypes about the mysticism of the Romani people which probably does little to serve the culture. Hmmmmm I tried to rationalize it a bit, saying that it's not the same as the N.A. tarot but all of the reasons I come up with sound like I am just saying that because I like the deck and don't want to admit that it is probably pretty offensive. The Buckland Romani Tarot is on my wishlist. If you want to get rid of it, I'll gladly take it. ;)

Shade	25 Mar 2005
The problem with Buckland claiming to be of Romani descent is that every time he comes out with a book he claims a different lineage. That is not to say that he is a bad author, I like his books but he has a habit of being a Saxon witch, no wait now a Scottish witch, no uh this time a Gypsy witch! He may indeed have some Romani anscestors at some point but it would be misleading to think of him as 100% Romani. Does that mean he doesn't havethe right to make any deck he feels like making, heavens no this is art. I do question the impact it has on an entire culture.

catti	25 Mar 2005
this is off topic but in response to the buckland romani....it is my understanding that the Romany people hold a tremendous amount of disdain for the "Gaj", their term for anyone who isnt part of the group. It is used the way i was taught to use Gringo, it just describes who you are and what you belong to. And you cant be part of the group just by marrying in either, you are or you arent born to it...so i doubt we will get much input by the Rom on this matter....

catti	26 Mar 2005
WolfyJames wrote: You say "might be seen", this is not a fact but a might, a possibility. Until all the Romani come here and do complain that Bucland is a traitor and his deck is crap, I don't see what the fuss is about there was no "fuss" about the Buckland deck. One poster had a reply concerning this deck. wolfyjames wrote: Frankly, I don't like this thread at all, it sickens me. The idea to destroy decks and to stop people's creativity (future decks) so not to hurt people's sensitivity, is very dangerous and very fondamentalist. Perhaps you missed part of RedMaples original response: Quote: The romanticized images are offensive to us because they are lies, they allow people to feel good about something that was and is horrifying. It is as if Germans were allowed to feel good about all those Jews, they had such a quaint and colorful culture, too bad they're all gone now. Would you not be horrified by that? Or why not have a slavery deck, with lots of smiling Aunt Jemimas and Uncle Toms taking care of white babies, and Uncle Remus stories....would that be allright? (Fifty years ago, that wouldn't have been seen as offensive by most white Americans.) The Native American images seem allright because America is used to these images, the "taming of the wild west" and the "thanksgiving Indian story" are very potent American myths. This isnt about peoples creativity or imagined insults. Not once was it suggested that all "incorrect" decks should be burned and the artists dismissed. The of the art was in fact found to be appealing, it was the content that was found to be exploitative. The people who this deck supposedly represents have spoken and said why they dont like it. There was no censoring suggested. In fact , the suggestion was dont buy the deck if you dont like it. wolfyjames wrote: I saw a documentary, talking about artists rejected because they were doing arts that were hurting the Church's sentivity and that it was still going on even nowadays. A female painter was shocked to see her painting, that was requested by the Church, rejected, because she painted Virgin Mary in labor. Many scientists were repressed and burned alive centurie ago because the new scientific discoveries were also hurting the Church's sensitivity. We don't do such things anymore, do you want to go back to the Middle-Ages? It was not called the Dark Ages for nothing. So you are upset by the burning alive of scientists and you dont want to go back to a time when information was highly censored and you could only believe what someone told you? Good. RedMaple, WalesWoman and Lelandra are opening up a hidden part of history. Speaking out to give a minority voice to a people whose history has been erased and rewritten into the lies of mainstream history. Explaining they find the images offensive and asking that others consider their point of view in deciding whether or not to buy this deck. Quote: No matter what happens, or what we do, we will always hurt someone's sensitivity, it's life. We cannot spend our entire life locked inside our home wearing all the secure gear. We have to get out, live life, and it hurts. To destroy who they are, or what they do, is wrong. I believe artists are psychic and that when they create, they channel something that has to come out, has to become concrete. I don't like the way the IIIrd millenium is turning... So an artist can make any kind of art? I can take your image and do anything i want with it? a writer can write anything? I can write anything about you, even if it is lies? anybody can do anything in the name of art???And if you speak out against my artistic usage of your image and your life my response should be " Dont Destroy My ART!" Is that valid? Is that responsible? Is that is what you are implying would be preferable to mature discussion of myths VS facts? Catti

firemaiden	26 Mar 2005
catti wrote: So an artist can make any kind of art? I can take your image and do anything i want with it? a writer can write anything? I can write anything about you, even if it is lies? anybody can do anything in the name of art???And if you speak out against my artistic usage of your image and your life my response should be " Dont Destroy My ART!" Is that valid? Is that responsible? Is that is what you are implying would be preferable to mature discussion of myths VS facts? Why should the image of Native Americans belong exclusively to Native Americans? Have Europeans no right to depict what they experienced when they came to the New World? Should we burn Chateaubriand's novels Atala and René? Should we destroy the Last of the Mohicans?. What about the nineteenth century paintings of early America hanging museums, should we burn those? What about the turn of the century photographs?

catti	26 Mar 2005
firemaiden wrote: Why should the image of Native Americans belong exclusively to Native Americans? Have Europeans no right to depict what they experienced when they came to the New World? Should we burn Chateaubriand's novels Atala and René ? Should we destroy the Last of the Mohicans? . What about the nineteenth century paintings of early America hanging museums, should we burn those? What about the turn of the century photographs? Who is talking about burning? It is called criticism. And every artist expects it. I did not find the tone of these posts to be about exclusivity. Native Americans were posting their opinion on why they do not appreciate the imagery. When you perform , Firemaiden, do you expect everyone to adore you? If you were participating in a controversial peice and recieved negative criticism would you liken your critics to the Inquisition? I thought the series of threads have been very informative. By allowing me to see another side of history , another point of view my world is expanded. Catti

firemaiden	26 Mar 2005
Hmmm, it doesn't seem to me that the actual art of the LS "Native American" Tarot is being criticised here, so much as the right for such a deck to even exist. Any tarot deck other than a Marseille will be an example of some other culture being appropriated.

Shade	26 Mar 2005
Some people are saying "Hmmm I think that these decks are exploiting people" not "Anyone who uses these decks is personally responsible for the degradation of a culture. People are allowed to criticize decks here right? When the Witchy tarot came out people voiced their displeasure with that deck quite loudly here. I happen to like that deck but I respect people's right to criticize it here.

firemaiden	27 Mar 2005
Obviously criticism is allowed. Also allowed, I think, is criticism of the criticism, otherwise there would be no conversation.

WolfyJames	27 Mar 2005
Shade wrote: The problem with Buckland claiming to be of Romani descent is that every time he comes out with a book he claims a different lineage. That is not to say that he is a bad author, I like his books but he has a habit of being a Saxon witch, no wait now a Scottish witch, no uh this time a Gypsy witch! Buckland is a Wiccan and Wicca is a religion. He came up with his own flavor, Seax Wicca, to fit where he was born and where he's been living. Romani are his origins, his genetic materials so to speak, so these two are different indeed and he can claim to be both at once. catti wrote: This isnt about peoples creativity or imagined insults. Not once was it suggested that all "incorrect" decks should be burned and the artists dismissed. The of the art was in fact found to be appealing, it was the content that was found to be exploitative. The people who this deck supposedly represents have spoken and said why they dont like it. There was no censoring suggested. In fact , the suggestion was dont buy the deck if you dont like it. On the contrary, this is what the thread has turned into, a group of individuals wanting to have the right of life and death on artistic materials, from the past, present and future. I've noticed that only fantasy decks, to all of you, could be "seen" as acceptable, but the others should all be destroyed for the best of mankind, and this for the entire population of the planet. We're talking about decks, but I'm not worried, this could easily spread like a virus and could affect all art forms and ultimatly everyday life. We live in a democracy, not in a dictatorship, and we can do whatever we want, artists can do whatever they want. They have spent centuries fulfilling everyone's agenda: the Church and the nobility, and since the coming of cameras, artists have no obligation to be realistic anymore, another limit imposed to them. Modern paintings has come, with two-headed three-legged humans accompanied by blue horses with two tails. Beside, even when art was "realistic", it was never realistic. It is impossible to recreate reality through art.

catti	27 Mar 2005
A few months ago there was a thread where a poster on this thread found a small image of clansmen on the Queen of Swords in the Medieval Scapini deck. For her this was sufficient negative imagery to turn her off the deck. Most people in the thread did not feel quite so strongly. I dont remember anyone accusing the original poster of trying to limit the art allowed in the world of Tarot. About a year ago the Teen Witch Tarot came out and was more or less dismissed by majority as having artwork that was appealing only in a shallow stereotype of Pagan and its content was found lacking. Again there was no conspiracy, just a group of tarot enthusiasts commenting on the deck. There has been a variety of commentry regarding the fantasy imagery in the Native American deck. It has ranged from "I dont own the deck and wouldnt" to " I own the deck but cant use it because of the inaccuracies" to " i dont think tarot imagery is the main issue for Native Americans" to " i have the deck and will continue to use it with sincerity" . IMHO they are all valid posts. NONE suggest censorship. This discussion is the opposite of censorship. As a non-Native i appreciate the time that has been taken to educate me on their issues. Many people use Tarot as a learning tool. I know that if I want to learn more about Native American spirituality the deck will not provide me with accurate images. I have even been provided with links if i wish to further research the storytelling traditions of Native Americans. WolfyJames wrote: ..... the thread has turned into, a group of individuals wanting to have the right of life and death on artistic materials, from the past, present and future. i reread the thread to see if i missed the part where people were urged to burn decks or a committe on the accepatable creation of past present and future tarot decks was discussed and seem to have missed it. In fact RedMaple posted that although she personally found the deck to contain offensive imagery because of the inaccuracies she was against censorship WolfyJames wrote: I've noticed that only fantasy decks, to all of you, could be "seen" as acceptable, but the others should all be destroyed for the best of mankind, and this for the entire population of the planet. again, what post are you quoting? who said this? WolfyJames wrote: We're talking about decks, but I'm not worried, this could easily spread like a virus and could affect all art forms and ultimatly everyday life. We live in a democracy, not in a dictatorship, and we can do whatever we want, artists can do whatever they want. No , in a democracy one cannot do whatever one wants to do. That is why there is a need for Moderaters to close threads or ban members, for example. That is why you cant steal , murder, or slander . Living in a land where you can do whatever you want would be anarchy. And one can only imagine that in places like Somalia and much of Afghanistan, where one can do whatever one wants due to lack of law; it is more about survival and there is little room for art. WolfyJames wrote: They have spent centuries fulfilling everyone's agenda: the Church and the nobility, and since the coming of cameras, artists have no obligation to be realistic anymore, another limit imposed to them. Modern paintings has come, with two-headed three-legged humans accompanied by blue horses with two tails. Beside, even when art was "realistic", it was never realistic. It is impossible to recreate reality through art. We can agree. I feel that there is no obligation on the process of creation but there is a responsibility that comes with ones art. I can create whatever image I want , true, but if i seek to share it with the world, through publication or public showing i take on an added responsibility for my art. that is my feeling and I speak only for myself. Catti

Bean Feasa	27 Mar 2005
I've been reading this thread with interest. I don't have the deck that's under discussion but I do have the Vision Quest deck, and it was I who started the thread that's linked in one of the early posts in this thread. I haven't joined in this discussion up until now for 2 reasons. One was that I felt I'd said what I had to say in that other thread. The other reason is that I felt there was a certain amount of moral high ground being taken that brooked no opposition. I was taken aback to read that RedMaple was 'heartsick' at some of the replies in the other thread (mine among them, presumably). I had no wish to cause anyone any pain by expressing my views, and I have no wish to do so now. I wasn't aware of some of the facts that have been given in this thread, about forced sterilisation of women and forced adoption, and I was truly shocked to read about such deplorable practices. That said, I do still feel that the question of the images on the deck is a vexed one. The VQ is one of my favourite decks. I use it in the full knowledge that it is in no way specific or authentic to Native American culture (or cultures). Its creator has stated that it was 'inspired' by NA culture. I still find myself grappling with the question - is it so bad to use an element of someone else's (or your own) culture that captures your imagination as a starting point from which to create art? As I mentioned in the other thread I see my own culture romanticised in the Celtic decks, and Irish fairy decks and what have you, but I just don't see it as harmful. I'd have more problems with the guns suit in the Victoria Regina deck - my feeling on it is that those guns could well have been trained on some of my ancestors, since my country suffered extreme oppression under that Queen's reign . I wouldn't buy that deck in a fit, but I do accept that many others see the Victorian era as a glorious time, and in the end I would rather the deck exist than not exist. I would rather that artists have the freedom to create what they're moved to create, and then everyone can decide on their own approach to it. While I accept that there was no suggestion that decks should be burned, I think it's disingenous to suggest that those who are criticising Native American decks aren't saying they shouldn't exist - there was definitely a comment to the effect that if people didn't buy the decks they would no longer be around, which seems to suggest that this is a desirable effect. Finally, I want to apologise for my pun on 'reservations' in the linked thread title - I felt ashamed when I looked at it again, in view of the pain and anger people are obviously feeling around these issues. blessings,

NightWing	28 Mar 2005
To Bean Feasa and others: I think I'm the one on this thread who originally observed that if people didn't buy these decks that were perceived as culturally offensive (to some), then (soon) they wouldn't be there. Well, true enough. That is the business market, after all. This was an observation, not some ringing cry to boycott all tarot decks that somebody, somewhere, found offensive. My point was that we all make choices with where and how we spend our money. There is a certain responsibility that goes with that. If you are buying coffee, carpets, or diamonds that are produced by what amounts to slave labour in another country, for example, then you share in being responsible for that slave labour. If one bought a tarot deck that depicted the English as unmitigatedly benevolent heroes that put down the dastardly, papist, and treacherous Irish in Ireland for their own good, allowing them only to folk dance and sing, but not to govern their own country, would you agree that it was a wise and fair purchase? Should one support the creators of such a deck with one's money? Now, WolfyJames seems to believe in unlimited artistic freedom. So I should head over to my studio, and begin a series of paintings depicting the "lies" of the Jews, Gays, and Romani regarding Concentration Camps in Europe in the 1940s. These paintings would feature the elaborate dance halls, buffets, swimming pools and spas that the camps "really" were,...and "it harms no one"(some would say). It would "be good" for younger people to know these things, in fact, and I would be channeling artistically what can and should be expressed. No problem here, right? Bean Feasa, are you suggesting that people should be forced to buy all these tarot decks that come out, regardless of their own personal opinion of them? Somehow I doubt that. So yes, sometimes it may be a desireable thing to NOT purchase an item to discourage the market for it. That is "free enterprise". It is a long, long way from censorship, or burning decks of cards. Where THAT came from, I don't know. It isn't on THIS thread!

stella01904	28 Mar 2005
MM ~ It's all about education - a LOT of people just aren't informed about the extent of the atrocities committed on Indigenous Peoples, not only here, but, sadly, all over the world. The schools don't exactly "make a big deal of it" with their happy pilgrim-and-Indian Thanksgiving art projects. They don't tell the kids what happened AFTER the harvest feast. Native American history is something you have to search out on your own. It is a painful and tedious thing to learn, it's almost the same story, OVER and OVER and OVER, lies and massacres, but you meet the most admirable people - any one of the Great Chiefs is an ideal to be aspired to. (I wish more had been written about the women!) In any case I'm not out to censor faux-Native spirituality made by other people for the money - I just wonder why anyone would want such things. BB, Stella

lelandra	28 Mar 2005
NightWing wrote: To Bean Feasa and others: Bean Feasa, are you suggesting that people should be forced to buy all these tarot decks that come out, regardless of their own personal opinion of them? Somehow I doubt that. So yes, sometimes it may be a desireable thing to NOT purchase an item to discourage the market for it. That is "free enterprise". It is a long, long way from censorship, or burning decks of cards. Where THAT came from, I don't know. It isn't on THIS thread! This would also be my position. The driving motive behind the web pages I put together and the reviews I write is to provide the kind of context that I personally find meaningful for me to those who are evaluating between different decks they might want to buy who might also find it meaningful. And as I say on my (more controversial than I ever imagined it would be) page about Native American Tarots, "To my fellow tarotists - So am I telling you that you can't buy one of these decks? No. You need to make your own decisions. My point in putting this page together is to ask you to think about your motives, and to be less susceptible to the marketing angle. To deck designers - I would personally prefer that designers of decks did as Ursula LeGuin did in creating Kesh in her book Always Coming Home and imagine the idealized earth-loving society in the future instead of trying to project it onto Native Americans. ..." That is what I would personally prefer, and I believe I have every right to my opinion. You may prefer something else, and you have every right to your opinion too. It is not censorship to say you don't like something and it is not censorship to say WHY you don't like something. As to the comparison made with Celtic stuff, I think it is a valid comparison. Along those lines I am rather sympathetic to the reconstructionist crowd. I read, last summer, a lovely book by Alexei Kondratiev called The Apple Branch. In it, one of the arguments he makes is that being able to speak one of the Celtic languages, or putting the effort into trying to learn to speak one of the Celtic languages would be a very good definition as to whether you are actually part of the community. A much better definition than whether you have so many drops of blood in your ancestry. In the midst of his argument, he writes (p. 68) "Then there is the entertainment-hungry thrill-seeking component in many people who are attracted to ritual work, especially in some neo-pagan milieus: they are open to passive enjoyment, the reception of vivid images, participation in simple and pleasurable communal exercises, all of it given an ego-boosting importance by its relationship to some poorly-articulated "mystery" or "tradition" that involves mispronounced exotic names of "ancient" provenance; but they are quickly bored by anything that steers them toward the active mental effort and discipline necessary for real spiritual progress. We are back in the realm of sterile playacting. It must be realized from the start that every spiritual tradition, whatever its scope and impact, deals with transformation, and that true transformation, whether of the self or of the world, involves the perfection of cognitive skills as well as of contemplative and imaginative ones. To balk at effort is to give up the hope of success." A is not A. Dualism is an illusion, Lelandra (Joan Cole)

Bean Feasa	30 Mar 2005
lelandra wrote: I read, last summer, a lovely book by Alexei Kondratiev called The Apple Branch. In it, one of the arguments he makes is that being able to speak one of the Celtic languages, or putting the effort into trying to learn to speak one of the Celtic languages would be a very good definition as to whether you are actually part of the community. Lol! Well, I'm all for people learning other languages, particularly lesser-used ones. I'd love to know though, which of 'em Mr Kondratiev speaks - Irish, Scots Gaelic, Welsh, Breton, Manx or Cornish - and to what level?? (In my experience there's many a one claims fluency on the basis of five sentences). And I'd love to know what gives him the right to lay down this criteria for 'proving' you are 'actually part of the community'! Quote: he writes (p. 68) "Then there is the entertainment-hungry thrill-seeking component in many people who are attracted to ritual work, especially in some neo-pagan milieus: they are open to passive enjoyment, the reception of vivid images, participation in simple and pleasurable communal exercises..." Seems pretty patronizing to me. If Kondratiev does indeed speak one of these languages, who knows what good fortune in the form of leisure, resources, intellectual abilities has enabled him to do so. Then he gets to trash other people's level of interest and expound that they shouldn't be doing this stuff because they don't have the qualifications he's decided they should have! Sorry... getting off-topic here. I appreciate what you're saying, that you just don't like these decks and are not actually trying to censor them. All I'm saying is people sometimes have to start off in the shallows, culturally speaking, and they may then (or not as the case may be) wade in a bit deeper, go out a bit farther. Like me - okay I'm just paddling about in ersatz Native American culture with the VQ, but then because of it I read threads like this ;) and start to feel the tide of argument take me out a bit deeper. Now I'm off to do a bit more reading. :) blessings

The LS "Native American" Tarot thread was originally posted on 23 Sep 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.