Wanted: Marseilles Deck

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 03 Sep 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kittaine	03 Sep 2004
I've been very intrigued by Marseilles decks. I want to discover for myself what draws people to them. I'd like to hear your recommendations. I may not buy one immediately, but I'll certainly place it in my wishlist and buy it once I feel I'm ready to move on from RWS-based decks.

Fulgour	03 Sep 2004
http://www.tarotpassages.com/TarotSet-mf.htm Tarot Set by Jane Lyle 1-59223-138-1 Deck & Book Set 176 PB Pages, over 100 2 color illustrations $12.98 The Tarot Set includes 22 cards of the Major Arcana and 56 cards of the Minor Arcana featuring the rich symbolism of Medieval Europe, along with a purple reading cloth to preserve the energy of the cards. The Illustrated Book of the Tarot offers a clear and comprehensive guide to Tarot, explaining the theories behind the practice and provides a step-by-step guide to reading the cards. :)

blue_fusion	03 Sep 2004
well, i've a source of the following marseille-type decks: Spanish Tarot Tarot de Marselles (dunno which one this is) Esoteric Tarot as you may know, tarot deck variety is somewhat unheard of in our beloved country. lol

Fulgour	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by blue_fusion Spanish Tarot Tarot de Marselles (dunno which one this is) Esoteric Tarot Spanish Tarot Espanol Le Tarot de Marseille El Gran Tarot Esoterico All very good (Esoterico is a modern deck though) and usually available at a very low price ($8.95US), but the themes are Swords=Water and Cups=Air.

blue_fusion	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour All very good (Esoterico is a modern deck though) and usually available at a very low price ($8.95US), but the themes are Swords=Water and Cups=Air. you got that. fournier. fergot who the publisher was earlier. probly cheaper cuz of their smaller sizes.

Fulgour	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by blue_fusion you got that. fournier. fergot who the publisher was earlier. probly cheaper cuz of their smaller sizes. They're not bad decks (I've got all three Fournier's) but they are weird because of the colouring. Blue Swords? Orange Cups? And the Esoterico is way, way out of this world, really kooky. If I had to pick one of the 3 there, it would be Le Tarot de Marseille, and second then the Spanish Tarot Espanol. If Jane Lyle's set is available, it's about as authentic as you can get. :)

Little Baron	03 Sep 2004
Hi Kittaine You have probably already seen this but I started a thread not that long ago as I was feeling the same way about the Marseilles as you are. The thread is http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28849 Chris (78th Fool) kindly sent me a Grimaud deck and I have been using that a lot. Have found it to be very clear. There is some useful information in the above thread. Hope it is of some use. Yaboot

Diana	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Yaboot001 Chris (78th Fool) kindly sent me a Grimaud deck and I have been using that a lot. Have found it to be very clear. There is a pocket version of the Grimaud deck which is obviously cheaper than the full-sized deck. They are available here in Switzerland if anyone wants one. If I send them non-priority mail (takes from two to four weeks depending), it could be a solution for those people with small budgets and shocking exchange rates.

Moonbow*	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour http://www.tarotpassages.com/TarotSet-mf.htm Tarot Set by Jane Lyle 1-59223-138-1 Deck & Book Set 176 PB Pages, over 100 2 color illustrations $12.98 The Tarot Set includes 22 cards of the Major Arcana and 56 cards of the Minor Arcana featuring the rich symbolism of Medieval Europe, along with a purple reading cloth to preserve the energy of the cards. The Illustrated Book of the Tarot offers a clear and comprehensive guide to Tarot, explaining the theories behind the practice and provides a step-by-step guide to reading the cards. :) Fulgour Does this book actually help with reading the marseilles deck or is it a book on reading tarot in general i.e. RWS meanings on marseilles cards? I am not an expert on marseilles decks but I have the Hadar and Grimaud and I am delighted with them both. This deck you mention looks good to my eyes though.

Diana	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moonbow* Fulgour Does this book actually help with reading the marseilles deck or is it a book on reading tarot in general i.e. RWS meanings on marseilles cards? I am not an expert on marseilles decks but I have the Hadar and Grimaud and I am delighted with them both. This deck you mention looks good to my eyes though. Moonbow*: I am not Fulgour. But please allow me to answer here. There has been a long thread somewhere on Aeclectic about this book. It is 100% based on Rider Waite meanings. It is absolutely worthless for studying the Marseilles deck. I have the book - a disgusted Aeclectician sent it to me for my reference. (When I say 100% I mean 100%.) If you do a search, I am sure you will find the thread. I have no desire to go and look it up for you, because the whole idea of selling a Marseilles deck and then giving people false hopes by selling a book with it that is based 100% on the RWS meanings makes me MAD!!!!!! :( :( :( :( And I'm angry enough today with stupid people who take children hostage in North Ossetia without going to look up threads that I prefer to forget. *Diana stomps off angrily*

Moonbow*	03 Sep 2004
Thanks Diana Yes, I thought THAT was the book. I remember the thread at the time but couldn't remember which book it was. I was just testing the water to see if it was the same book that you received - I was right. I just wanted to mention it here to make it clear to Kittaine that the book is not going to help, and I was hoping you would drop by.

Anna	03 Sep 2004
Yippee! Kittaine, I can only tell you about the one Marseilles deck that I have, the Hadar deck. I spent quite a lot of time choosing which of the decks to get, and the thread that Yaboot has suggested for you to read was one that I refered to several times in my search. I chose the Hadar because I can only speak a little French, and Kris Hadar has a section of his website translated into English. For studying purposes I think that is a great thing! Then there are the colours, which I felt really drawn too. They seem more muted than other Marseilles, and that appealed to me. But most of all, I chose the Hadar deck because this was the deck that my soul cried out for. In the few weeks that I have had this deck, I have felt a connection to it that I have not felt with my other decks. Or, I thought that I had felt it with other decks, but after my very first reading with the Hadar, I realised that I hadn't. There is something very pure about it, something that makes me feel "now THIS is tarot, this is tarot in its purest, most undilluted form." And the readings...effortless seems the wrong word to use, but they are effortless. They are effortless in that the Hadar deck speaks to me in a language that my heart and soul recognise instantly. There is no translation or struggling to be done to find the meanings of the cards. The images on these cards have depths that you can fall right into, they are powerful. I was a little concerned about the ammount of study that it would take for me to be able to deal with those unillustrated minors. I worried that my A'Level Maths and my copy of Flora Britanica might not be enough. How wrong I was! The minors are very much illustrated, a better word would be un-peopled. I am amazed at how protective I have begun to feel towards the Marseilles decks, and how sad I feel about how misunderstood they sometimes are.

Anna	03 Sep 2004
About books....and then I really am done! lol.......I don't think you would need one. It seems to me that everything that you need to understand the meanings of the cards is on the cards themselves. EVERYTHING. I haven't studied yet, although I probably will at some point, because I have caught the Marseilles bug now and I want to know more! But, I don't think its necessary to get a book. Infact, its probably better not to you. Let the cards teach you, and they will. Pocket sized Grimaud's! WooHoo!

Diana	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by CharmingPixie [bit seems to me that everything that you need to understand the meanings of the cards is on the cards themselves. everything. ! [/b] Listen to CharmingPixie. She knows tons about how to read the Marseilles.

Trogon	03 Sep 2004
Oh my... this is terrible! Here I am... a dyed in the wool... hard-core... RWS/Thoth fan... (I gave away my old Grimaud TDM quite a while back)... and now you people have almost convinced me to get another Marseilles deck! :eek: Shame on you Diana! Shame on you CharmingPixie! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Anna	03 Sep 2004
Woohoo! Go for it Trogon :D I want to sing it from the rooftops! I love the Marseilles! :D

Sulis	03 Sep 2004
Hmmmmmm - you lot are so bad - I'm eyeing up Marseilles decks myself and I really never thought that would happen :) Charming Pixie, where did you get your Hadar? Love Sulis xx

Diana	03 Sep 2004
Sulis: As you're in the UK, I think Somerville stocks them. Otherwise amazon.ca, and I think TarotGarden may still have some in stock (thanks to someone who did some e-mailing to get them in contact with the Canadian distributor.)

Sulis	03 Sep 2004
Thanks Diana, I have my eye on a Grimaud on e-bay but I really like the muted colours of the Hadar. See what you lot are like :) Love Sulis xx

Kittaine	03 Sep 2004
What is it about Marseilles decks? Hmmm...I must find out for myself. Unfortunately, I'm currently nursing six new decks and counting. I looked at this page http://www.learntarot.com/subjma.htm (thanks, Yaboot, for that link) and I don't know which deck I want. I might get the "prettiest"-looking one, and it looks like it has to be The Beginner's Tarot. How do you choose a Marseilles deck when they all look similar? Do you base your judgment on the kinds of color used, the historical significance of the deck, the kinds of illustrations, or all of them? When studying the Marseilles, is it necessary to have a knowledge of the RWS meanings, especially for the pips? Or do you just need to have a knowledge of the elemental dignities, the "personalities" of the numbers and colors, and a few other symbols?

Anna	03 Sep 2004
Sulis, I got mine from www.playingcardsales.com, they ship from France so the shipping is really cheap and quick! Mine arrived within 5 days. And, they are even more stunning in person than they are in the scans! edited to change link cos it didn't work :D try this one: http://www.playingcardsales.co.uk/cards/

Sulis	03 Sep 2004
Thanks Charminig Pixie, I've bought cards from them before. Think I may have to get one :) I'll have to wait a few weeks though till I get some money :) Love Sulis xx

Fulgour	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moonbow* Fulgour... Does this book actually help with reading the marseilles deck or is it a book on reading tarot in general i.e. RWS meanings on marseilles cards? I think we've all discovered that books on Tarot are for enthusiasts. Alas, one even soon gets over being annoyed at the absent indexes. Still, isn't it fun to experience the wisdom of so many wonderful authors! :laugh: :joke: :laugh:

Anna	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kittaine I looked at this page http://www.learntarot.com/subjma.htm (thanks, Yaboot, for that link) and I don't know which deck I want. I might get the "prettiest"-looking one, and it looks like it has to be The Beginner's Tarot. How do you choose a Marseilles deck when they all look similar? Do you base your judgment on the kinds of color used, the historical significance of the deck, the kinds of illustrations, or all of them? When studying the Marseilles, is it necessary to have a knowledge of the RWS meanings, especially for the pips? Or do you just need to have a knowledge of the elemental dignities, the "personalities" of the numbers and colors, and a few other symbols? I think that the Marseilles is about connecting with your heart and your intuition rather than your brain, so I'd say go for the deck that calls to you, that will be the right one. For studying, I have needed to put my RWS language firmly to one side. Its liberating really! No more scary hearts pierced by swords :D The flowers and patterns and colours of the minors have new stories to tell you. Really, the cards will teach you everything that you need to know. I haven't needed my A'Level Maths once yet :D

Diana	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kittaine I might get the "prettiest"-looking one, and it looks like it has to be The Beginner's Tarot. How do you choose a Marseilles deck when they all look similar? Do you base your judgment on the kinds of color used, the historical significance of the deck, the kinds of illustrations, or all of them? When studying the Marseilles, is it necessary to have a knowledge of the RWS meanings, especially for the pips? Or do you just need to have a knowledge of the elemental dignities, the "personalities" of the numbers and colors, and a few other symbols? The Beginner's Tarot is not a Tarot of Marseilles. So if you're looking for one, you can discard this one immediately. Of course, the web-link does say "Marseilles style" and not "Marseilles" so I don't think they are deliberately leading you up the garden path. Do you want a Marseilles "style" or a "Marseilles"? If you really want a Marseilles deck, you will probably have to get either a Conver deck, a Grimaud deck, or a Hadar deck. (Some people like the Camoin deck, in spite of an egg that has suddenly appeared out of no-where on the Papess card. LOL - maybe the Papess is a HEN??? :D ). As to your question of RWS meanings. You can happily forget them forever and ever when you are reading a Marseilles deck. :) :) As to how does one choose a deck? Well, there are certain details that HAVE to be in a Marseilles deck. And those details you can find in a Conver, a Hadar, or a Grimaud, for example.

Kittaine	03 Sep 2004
Thanks for the replies, CP and Diana! Very enlightening. I think I want a TdM even more! Diana, what's the difference between a "Marseilles" and a "Marseilles style" deck? Thanks!

Lee	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Well, there are certain details that HAVE to be in a Marseilles deck. And those details you can find in a Conver, a Hadar, or a Grimaud, for example. Or a Fournier Marseilles. -- Lee

Diana	03 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kittaine Diana, what's the difference between a "Marseilles" and a "Marseilles style" deck? That's a very difficult question to answer in just one post. But if you look at that web-site and compare just the picture of the Fool of the Beginner's Tarot to the others, do you see how different the dog is to the others? All the other Fools pictured on that web-site have the proper Marseilles dog/cat/lynx (my research has led me to believe it has to be a dog.) Also, the Beginner's Tarot has a castle. There is no castle on a Marseilles fool. And that's just two details. The Majors in a Marseilles deck have VERY specific details which have meaning. You change them, you make additions... and you don't have a Marseilles deck anymore, but a Marseilles style deck. The minors are another story.

blackroseivy	03 Sep 2004
My choice of deck on my wishlist for Marseilles is the Ancient deck -it's the one I find to be most genuine. I'm a history buff, + a purist; I really want to have something like a genuine deck, it enhances the experience for me.

Anna	03 Sep 2004
Danubhe, was it you who recently got a Grimaud from ebay? How have you been getting along with it? I think thats the one I would like to think about getting next, although I'm not in any rush at the moment, I would be intrested to hear your thoughts :)

blackroseivy	04 Sep 2004
Actually, no - that wasn't me. I really wanna get that Ancient soon, it's on my list for decks to read with for my website; I may have to wait until I get an order, & then buy the deck. (The reason I'm offering a choice of decks is because I'm going to be scanning the readings as part of the package; that way, the people I read for will get the benefit of the beauty of the various cards. I wanted to offer a complete experience, something really different! ;) )

Cerulean	04 Sep 2004
I might say now a good historical Marseilles was designed between 1650 and late 1800s with French titles and clear design influence--- but it seems folks here like the modern Kris Hadar designs and feel the colors are as bright and clean as historic designs. So I guess most people believe the Hadar is a Marseilles design. I prefer my Swiss Marsiglia 1805 with the Hanged Man in profile--one of my modern Marseilles-style reproductions actually drew from this deck. But I found it was more expensive than other Marseilles decks and some might not call it a true "Marseilles"...I'm still trying to get my definitions straight. When I started writing reviews, I only knew that people referred to styles such as the following: "RWS" for Rider Waite Smith or RWS influenced designs with full pictures in every scene and Justice is 11 and Strength is Eight. "Marseilles" for designs that have full pictures in the 22 Majors, 14 Court figures and 40 suited cards that probably do not have full scenes; but they show all the pip symbols with the appropriate number according to the card, sometimes with additional decorations. The majors usually are Justice as eight and Strength as 11. Since coming here, I have been trying to change when I say "Marseilles" decks to the more accurate "Marseilles-style" if the decks were not made with clear French influences between 1650 and late 1800s. The earlier historical Italian designs in general share the design convention of full pictures in 22 majors, 14 Court figures and 40 suited cards that do not have full scenes but do have pip symbols. But there was a lot of design variations in Italian historical tarots that can be roughly 1450-through-1880s. I've now started trying to identify the regional area the design comes from in Italian styles when I name the deck--a Milanese, Bolognese, etc., regional style. Not easy though, one has to keep looking through the references... I hope this is helpful...I'm still trying to define how I refer to decks, as there's 500 plus years of history in these European designs that began as gambling games. Regards, Cerulean

Kittaine	05 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana The Majors in a Marseilles deck have VERY specific details which have meaning. You change them, you make additions... and you don't have a Marseilles deck anymore, but a Marseilles style deck. The minors are another story. Then I want a Marseilles deck, not a Marseilles-style one. :D Thanks for the info, Cerulean. Man, I can't wait to get a Marseilles, but that would have to wait.

punchinella	06 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by CharmingPixie There is something very pure about it, something that makes me feel "now THIS is tarot, this is tarot in its purest, most undilluted form." And the readings...effortless seems the wrong word to use, but they are effortless. . . . There is no translation or struggling to be done to find the meanings of the cards. CharmingPixie, you put this so well. There's just no going back, is there.

Anna	07 Sep 2004
Thank you punchinella! :) You are right, there is no going back. I still enjoy reading with my other decks, I love art and I like comparing how different deck creators have interprited the cards. I will certainly keep them and use them. But delving into the world of Marseilles decks has added a whole new depth to the way that I understand and read tarot, there is no going back from that :) I've even started my first real tarot journal that is just for exploring the Marseilles. I've begun a page for each card and I am trying to copy with pencils and watercolours the card images....copying them really makes you notice all the details! I want to make it into a really beautiful handmade book of art and writtings to hand down to my future children.

Emily	07 Sep 2004
That sounds lovely CharmingPixie. :) I have the Fournier, I like the colours used but one of these days am going to get the Hadar or a Conver but not the Lo Scarabeo one - I don't like the colouring. I too was going to get the Tarot Set by Jane Lyle not for the book but for the cards but I've read in this thread that they may be very large. I can't seem to find any card measurements for this set so I'm not sure now. I only have small hands and if these cards come larger than standard I'll struggle to use them. So for the minute the Fournier is my favourite Marseilles deck. :)

lark	07 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Emily I too was going to get the Tarot Set by Jane Lyle not for the book but for the cards but I've read in this thread that they may be very large. I can't seem to find any card measurements for this set so I'm not sure now. Emily they are 5 inches long x almost 3 inches wide. Its a nice deck, the card stock is good and sturdy and it has a light lamination but not real shinny and slick. I'm very happy with mine.

Emily	08 Sep 2004
Hi Lark, Thanks for posting the sizes, I did another quick search last night and still didn't come up with them but I gave in :D and ordered the set late last night. I like the style of this Conver better than the LS one and I thought that if I left it again I might not get one. I've been using the Fournier today and have been really surprised by the results. I am a diehard Rider Waite fan but using cards that could let my imagination run riot without having the influence of an illustration has been a bit of an eye opener. I don't think I have ever looked at the number aspects of the cards before like what the two's mean or the Eights etc. Looking forward to this set coming. :)

The Wanted: Marseilles Deck thread was originally posted on 03 Sep 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.