which Marseille deck to start with?
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 09 Oct 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| sarahbellum |
09 Oct 2004 |
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I am getting more and more interested in the Marseille Tarot. However I know very little about it. There are several versions out there. Any recommendations? And also, any recommendations for books that would help as I learn this new/old deck?
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| ihcoyc |
09 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by sarahbellum
I am getting more and more interested in the Marseille Tarot. However I know very little about it. There are several versions out there. Any recommendations? And also, any recommendations for books that would help as I learn this new/old deck?
You can't go wrong with Grimaud, they're the standard, even if their English titles are somewhat idiosyncratic.
You can't go wrong with a Conver 1760 historical reproduction deck. The Heron is excellent if you can find it. The Lo Scarabeo is adequate and much easier to come by in the USA. The deck that comes with the "Tarot Set" also qualifies; it has big cards that aren't as well made as they might be, but the images are quite sharp and attractive.
For an English language book, my first recommendation would be "The Magical World of the Tarot" by Gareth Knight.
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| fyreflye |
09 Oct 2004 |
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Let me be the first to recommend the great "restored" deck by Kris Hadar which you can find under the name "Le Veritable Tarot de Marseille" ISBN 2-89074-819-7 at Amazon.ca. Its colors are warmer and softer than most Marseille decks and it has a very special look and feel. You can read about it at Hadar's site http://www.krishadar.com Hadar also has free online classes in the Marseille where you can learn how to read it. For more info and help on the Marseille generally go to the Historical section here and join the Marseille discussion group. Plenty of book recommendations there.
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| Diana |
09 Oct 2004 |
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Although the Conver is a very important and wonderful deck, which in the end, I think all Marseilles enthusiasts add to their "collection", I do not necessarily think it is the best one for someone who is starting out with the Tarot of Marseilles.
To me, there are two decks for the "beginner". The Grimaud or the Hadar.
(I didn't realise that there was an English version of the Grimaud. Please get a French version if you buy one - I can help you if you are having problems getting hold of one - they are available in all decent bookshops here.)
I can't recommend any English books unfortunately. The really important books have not been translated.
The Historical forum here on Aeclectic is a very good place to start.
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| sarahbellum |
09 Oct 2004 |
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Forgot to mention--I strongly prefer a deck in French--I don't want to miss the nuances, like Hotel Dieu for the Tower
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| Diana |
09 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by sarahbellum
Forgot to mention--I strongly prefer a deck in French--I don't want to miss the nuances, like Hotel Dieu for the Tower
sarahbellum: You mean "Maison Dieu". It is not surprising that you mixed them up though. Hotel-Dieu is a term still used in France to designate certain hospitals. And a Maison-Dieu in the Middle Ages was a term used to designate some of the places of shelter set up to look after the people going off to the crusades on their journeys... and they also took in old and sick people and cared for them.
I mixed up these two terms once in a thread in the Historical forum.
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| fyreflye |
09 Oct 2004 |
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Unfortunately, no French-language-only Grimauds are sold in the U.S or even Canada, and no Grimauds (or Herón Convers) at all in the US. You can find the bilingual Grimauds often on eBay, but as far as I know, apart from accessing the French-language sellers on eBay (which I do) the only place to get the Herón is from Alida http://www.alidastore.com/indexen.html;you can get the French-only Grimaud from Amazon.fr or through Diana. One of the reasons I recommend the Hadar is that it's the easiest for a USAn to get except for the US Games version, which is to be shunned :D
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| ihcoyc |
09 Oct 2004 |
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I own a ©1963 Grimaud with French and English titles. The French titles are all what you would expect. The English gives Wands for Batons, and IIRC the Papess becomes the High Priestess. XIII has "Death" (and La Mort) printed on the sides. I prefer my Conver reproduction.
Frankly, if you want a deck with titles in French that will keep les intégristes de Marseille happy, and that is easy to obtain in the States, I think that one of the Conver reproductions is the way to go.
I agree --- skip the US Games "Tarot of Marseilles." Hadar is a re-interpretation; but then so is Grimaud. I don't own a Hadar deck myself so I really don't have a strong opinion. The pictures I've seen online of the Hadar surely look acceptable.
The Fournier painted Marseille is also French-only, but it too is a fairly thorough re-interpretation that may not keep the intégristes happy. The Fournier Spanish Tarot is much better, even with cards in Spanish.
The Lo Scarabeo simple "Tarot de Marseille" has titles in chief in Italian, and so will not pacify the intégristes. If you get a LS the Ancient Tarot of Marseilles is the Conver reproduction, and what you want. The Ancient Tarots of Bologna and the Ancient Tarots of Liguria-Piedmont are other LS reproduction decks worth considering if you find them attractive, although the Liguria-Piedmont is in Italian.
Ligurians? Oh, Zolok! You're so cruël!
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| mooncat2 |
10 Oct 2004 |
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Hi sarahbellum,
You might like to join others new to the Marseille in the group on the reading exchange. Lots of fun while we learn - everyone is welcome and you don't have to have a deck as Charming Pixie scans our cards for us. A great way to start.
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| WolfyJames |
11 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by fyreflye
Unfortunately, no French-language-only Grimauds are sold in the U.S or even Canada, and no Grimauds (or Herón Convers) at all in the US.
This is so untrue. Québec is the exception in Canada, we are French's cousins, and we can find Tarot de Marseille and books on Tarot de Marseille in french in any bookstores here, due to our european (French) origin and language. Actually, finding any tarot and any book in french that isn't related to Tarot de Marseille is the difficult part. It is impossible here to find any book related to RWS Tarot in french. I have already ranted about our particular situation in another thread so I won't talk about it here. I have found two Tarot de Marseille here in Québec, here are the links, one website is entirely in french though:
http://www.renaud-bray.com/francais/menu/gabarit.asp?RBCode=020020121+&PrCleunik=530094&Entete=Livre&Page=fiche_livre_wsc.asp (ISBN: VSRA0038)
http://www.archambault.ca/store/product.asp?sku=000965261&type=5 (ISBN: VFRA0038 )
I have noticed that the ISBN is not the same for these two items. Someone who knows more than me could tell you which is the right one.
Edit:
The Archambault website is a real pain in the ass and kicks you out violently if you use an alternative browser like me (Opera), so I'm forced to use Internet Explorer on this site. So, don't be surprised if you're kicked out too.
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| Umbrae |
11 Oct 2004 |
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Listen to Diana...get a Hadar.
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| ihcoyc |
11 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by WolfyJames
I have found two Tarot de Marseille here in Québec, here are the links. . . . .
Without a picture, though, it's hard to tell whether those Grimaud Marseilles decks are the French-only versions, or the English/French edition. The E/F edition is still fairly handily available in the USA as far as I know, been a while since I have searched.
The 1963 E/F Grimaud Marseilles has a number of eccentricities. Le Pape becomes Hierophant in English, and La Papesse, the High Priestess. Coins are "Money" and Bâtons are "Clubs." Death has a name, printed on the side of the card in both English and French.
Still, this is a pretty good deck. My impression is that Grimaud decks have the same centrality to the French Tarot de Marseilles tradition and literature that the RWS has to the English tradition. This makes them a good place to begin.
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| WolfyJames |
11 Oct 2004 |
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They might not show pictures (I agree, I don't like their websites and they could do a hell lot better) but they show the ISBN. The people who know the ISBN of the french-only version of Grimaud, could share it here. And we could compare with the ISBN given to see if these Grimaud are indeed what you're looking for or not. Personally, the only Marseille I have is the Fournier, and it is quite a lovely and colorful deck. I might be temped by a Jodo-Camoin Tarot de Marseille that I have seen lately. Unfortunatly, I can't help with the right ISBN of the french-only version of the Grimaud because I don't have it.
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| fyreflye |
11 Oct 2004 |
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The people who know the ISBN of the french-only version of Grimaud, could share it here. And we could compare with the ISBN given to see if these Grimaud are indeed what you're looking for or not.
Le Diouris edition:
Langue : Français Éditeur : Le Diouris (1 septembre 1999)
Format : Reliure inconnue
ISBN : 2912791154
France Cartes edition O/P:
Langue : Français Éditeur : France Cartes Grimaud (3 septembre 1999)
Format : Reliure inconnue
ISBN : B000071MCK
France Cartes Grimaud edition O/P but available from an Amazon.fr associate:
Langue : Français Éditeur : France Cartes Grimaud (3 septembre 1999)
Format : Reliure inconnue
ISBN : B00005QQZN
France Cartes Grimaud mini edition:
Langue : Français Éditeur : France Cartes Grimaud (3 septembre 1999)
Format : Reliure inconnue
ISBN : B00005QQZ7
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| RedMaple |
11 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Diana
(I didn't realise that there was an English version of the Grimaud. Please get a French version if you buy one - I can help you if you are having problems getting hold of one - they are available in all decent bookshops here.)
Diana, are you in France? My husband is traveling to Paris next month, and I'd like him to get me a Hadar, and a Heron. Are they available in most bookshops?
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| Rusty Neon |
11 Oct 2004 |
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I wouldn't recommend Hadar's deck for those beginning with Tarot de Marseille decks. It mixes up elements from more than one major TdM historical design (elements from 1760 Conver and elements from 1701 Dodal / 1700s Payen) while also adding elements not found in any of those aforementioned historical designs, e.g., crown, roses, halos. In my humble view, it's best to start with a deck that follows one of those historical designs (Conver or Dodal), rather than mixing them up, for each of those designs has its own individual magic and mystery.
For a historical reproduction deck, I would recommend the Héron photoreproduction of the Conver. The Thunder Bay Press Conver is an inexpensive alternative. (As for the Lo Scarabeo Conver, it would appear that the museum specimen original for the photography is missing the 6 of Batons, as the LS reproduction of the 6 of Batons shows a doctored 7 of Batons, thus a different design from the Conver 6 of Batons.)
For a re-drawn deck that closely follows the 1760 Conver, I would recommend the 1930 Marteau deck, available in the Grimaud contemporary edition or in the Dusserre 1930 photoreproduction, both in-print. The Fournier deck is fine too, as it is a close redrawing of the Marteau design, and hence the Conver design.
For those in the US and Canada, you can get the French titled Grimaud Tarot de Marseille, the Dusserre Marteau Tarot de Marseille and the Heron Conver Tarot de Marseille through levalet.com in Montreal. Use their toll-free number, rather than their non user-friendly online shop, to ensure you're getting the right item.
To complement a photoreproduction or redrawn deck of the Conver design, the US Games / Carta Mundi deck is interesting in that it is a fairly good redrawing of the 1701 Dodal pattern for those unable to obtain the out-of-print 1701 Dodal photoreproduction deck by Dusserre. For those thinking of the US Games / Carta Mundi, it can still often be found on bookstore shelves, but be careful in ordering online; e.g., the US Games website shows that US Games now carries the AG Muller "Convos" (a totally differently animal) rather than the Carta Mundi.
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| ihcoyc |
11 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Rusty Neon
For those in the US and Canada, you can get the French titled Grimaud Tarot de Marseille, the Dusserre Marteau Tarot de Marseille and the Heron Conver Tarot de Marseille through levalet.com in Montreal. Use their toll-free number, rather than their non user-friendly online shop, to ensure you're getting the right item.
According to the levalet.com website, the edition they have of the Grimaud Marseille is the "Grimaud Bilingue," which I presume is the same one I have, with both French and English on the cards.
They have the Fournier for what looks like a good price. They also have a Dusserre and a Piatnik Marseille, with which I am not familiar.
They also mention "Marseille, le livre de Mercure de France," and I am curious as to what this is about.
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| Rusty Neon |
11 Oct 2004 |
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As a visitor of their actual store in Montreal, I have seen the Heron Conver Tarot de Marseille deck, the French-only titled Grimaud Tarot de Marseille, and the Dusserre Paul Marteau Tarot de Marseille deck on their shelves. Their online listing is not complete. As noted in my first post, I suggest using their toll-free telephone number to ensure that you get the correct item.
Originally posted by ihcoyc
According to the levalet.com website, the edition they have of the Grimaud Marseille is the "Grimaud Bilingue," which I presume is the same one I have, with both French and English on the cards.
If you wish to ensure that you get the Grimaud with French-only titles, you should use levalet's toll-free number rather than ordering online. In your phone call, insist that they send you the French-only titled Grimaud.
They also have a Dusserre
That would appear to be the aforementioned Dusserre Paul Marteau TdM deck. If that's a deck that you want, order by phone to make sure you get that.
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| jmd |
12 Oct 2004 |
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I have no hesitation in recommending a modern rendition such as the Hadar to those new to the Marseille tradition. The Hadar, as well as the Camoin, has all the hallmarks of reflecting truthfully the tradition.
Differences are the inevitable application of attempting to give birth to archetypal impulses, and the Hadar falls cleanly and beautifully within the traditional lines.
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| Shalott |
12 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Rusty Neon
That would appear to be the aforementioned Dusserre Paul Marteau TdM deck. If that's a deck that you want, order by phone to make sure you get that.
Just wanted to throw in that, when I called them, they told me they no longer carry the Dusserre Marteau...sounded like it may be out of print...
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| fyreflye |
12 Oct 2004 |
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Shalott:
Does this mean that the Dusserre Marseiille listing is a mistake or that their listing refers to a Dusserre Dodal?
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| tmgrl2 |
15 Oct 2004 |
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Hadar. I love reading with this deck!
:D:D:D
terri
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The which Marseille deck to start with? thread was originally posted on 09 Oct 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.
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