A question on authenticity

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

piscesdreamer	19 Dec 2004
Hi i'm new to the tarot but not to esoteric ideas.I've been wondering what deck to get and was amazed to see how many there are in existence.I think some of them are so far removed from there origin that i feel some of the power might be lost on a lot of them.there are politically correct decks,pop culture oriented decks,starry eyed new age decks,some of them just plain silly.I mean can one take a rock n roll deck seriously and actually find meaning in them as one example.Or the icon deck that eliminates gender,i totally believe masculine and feminine attributes are importantly expressed in esoteric ideas,to eliminate them altogether seems hollow.I believe the tarot was designed to express important ideas,all these frivolous decks seems to deviate from thier true meaning.Anyonne else with me on this?I want advice on the right deck to get,one with authenticity.

contrascarpe	19 Dec 2004
piscesdreamer - Like personal attractions, beauty in Tarot decks is in the eye of the beholder. You mention that the frivolous decks deviate from their true meaning. What is their true meaning? Is it for divination? In that case, one can read any deck, tarot, oracle or playing cards and find meaning. Is it in their historical context? Then Marseilles style decks fit that. There are many decks available because people find beauty in the art; or the subject matter is something that interests them (we have a friend who loves dragons and only uses dragon based decks). I am not implying what you say is not accurate - obviously this theory works for you and for countless others. Some follow the Marseilles, some the Golden Dawn, some the Thoth, and some just love Tarot - all things Tarot. My partner and I have many, many decks. We love some of the them, we hate some of them (not all the decks she owns are my cup of tea and vice versa). But we love the idea behind ALL of them. I can read with any deck. Some are silly, yes. But to me all are revered, and some of them are outright fun. Good luck in your quest for finding the right deck(s) for you. I firmly believe that if you seriously study Tarot, and these boards, you will find many, many decks that you will love. Dan

Gardener	19 Dec 2004
If your search is for the most "authentic" deck, the one least removed from its origins, as you say, you will probably enjoy the discussions going on in the historical forums. In those forums, people are looking at the original decks and discussing them in terms of ur-Tarot, purity, and closeness to "original ideas." Sometimes I wonder why the ideas of the people who made the first decks are considered more authentic than the ideas of people creating decks today. If one really wishes to become authenic with the medieval decks, one would probably consider the mindset of their medieval creators. To sit down with those artists, to engage in a discussion about free will, the subconscious, the search for individual meaning, would most likely be a disconcerting experience. Before Shakespeare, before Freud and Jung, many people didn't value individual growth, self-actualization, personal journeys, the way we do today. Even dreams were not seen as a window into the personal soul. Using the tarot today, we draw on so many philosophies and disciplines not yet invented at that time, or not known to those artists, such as the chakra system in use in the far East. Today we are able to work with tarot images which draw on cultures unknown to artisans of medieval Europe, and the cultures made in the centuries since, including our own. The newest "novelty" deck, the Housewives Tarot, is a quirky look at growing up in the Fifties. Is this not authentic? To someone alive today, the images of his or her own childhood are in many ways more pure than the images of 15th century Italy. They have a greater power to evoke the experiences that have meaning to today's reader. It goes back to the question of why we use this format, the imagery and symbolism contained in 78 cards. Are we on a search for the esoteric of hundreds of years ago, or the esoteric of today? Or both? Where is "esoteric" located, and why is placing "esoteric" in 15th century Europe more authentic than finding it in many places across the centuries and continents?

Alta	19 Dec 2004
Check out the Forum titled Marseilles & Other Early Decks . It explores not only Marseilles, but Viscounti and other very early decks. Many of these have reproductions still available. There is a wealth of information on these subjects if you are interested in early and original decks.

souljourney	19 Dec 2004
I really liked what Gardener had to say...well put. In one way I really like the Gay Tarot and I think it's Witchy Tarot for the simple fact that they use modern imagry. I can relate to that more than plowing a field, or whatever. I don't own either deck, but would certainly not be opposed to owning and using a modern deck. I can see uses and study opportunities for just about any deck out there really. I like different ideas, and what is Tarot? Is it 78 cards, 22 Major, 56 Minors including 4 court cards in 4 suits. If that is the criteria then lots of things are Tarot. Is it that the 5 of Cups has this meaning, and the 10 of Swords has that meaning...and it can't vary? And who is to say what "system" is the correct one. Just because RWS and the Golden Dawn seems the most popular does it make it "the one"? At one point people thought the earth was flat...oops. I guess I can't see that one deck is more Authentic than another...more historical, yes...more true to a particular system, yes. But not more authentic as a whole. SJ

HOLMES	19 Dec 2004
please go and make an introduction in new members section so we can know more about you as well. :) well if you want the true essence of the tarot, that would be hard to define. those who loved the historical decks consider them to be the true tarots for they are closest to origins. yet if you consider the notion that almost everyone has that tarot came from a game then you see that even those historical tarot were "silly" for they were making divination out of a game. but if you consider that they were true mystic teachings masked as a game in order to escape the scourge of the times then you will start to see the true tarot. yet since we don't have a deck that is consider the true tarot, we have to make due with what we have. decks like the waite , and golden dawn, and the toth tarot are surpisingly close to the marsielles deck. (you can see the comparision in the qabalistic tarot which has been reprinted and if you do a search on it can find the thread on it in books and media. the qabalistic tarot especially compares the minors and i was suprised by the similarities of the minors of the illustrated pips and the non illustrated pips of the older marsilles deck. ) since your not new on esoteric ideas i can assume that you know a bit about numerology, qabbalah, astrology perhaps alchemicy? then the newer but now classic tarot for the wait been around for almost a 100 years and the toth for at least 30 years, will have you seek. for most modern tarot come from either the waite or toth intperations of the tarot, and once in a while you see a throwback to the classic age of tarot. yet for those that are politcaly correct, pop deck and just plain silly tarot. the tarot starting in the 60 to present day have represented the era of its creation and so you can see how tarot has evolved in present day by looking at those decks. example you won't see no angels tarot until the 80s, no psychology based tarot til the 80s, and femine based tarots i think appeared in the 70s?. now we have the gay tarot, the pagan tarot, and i am thinking yay :) . for silly tarots like the gummy bears tarot for example, sometiems the sillyness helps people get past their own defenses. and they all work or should ideally. i mean the innerchild tarot and the whimsical tarot based on faeries tarot i thought to myself at first , fairy tales ,, yeah right. but here i am owning two of them and looking to get the fey tarot eventually. it is true that some people by adding to the tarot extra cards , or extra suits for example for many it would distract from the energy of the true meaning yet others would say yes that is just what the tarot needed and now i can work with this tarot the true meaning of the tarot is in the eye of the beholder and the ways it studied . example i studied on the wiate for years before moving out to other decks and so everytime i see a new deck i immeditaly compare it to the waite. yet if i have studied on the marsielles i might say how dare they put pictures on the pips? or use such modern drawings. yet if i have studied with the toth,, i might say heck that isn't a tarot for it doesn't include enough symbolism. so my biggest joy is comparing the tarots i have , about 50 and there are those who have lots more then that here on this forum eheh. and in this comparion my mind gets opened and the truth of the tarot gets broader yet more focused for i am no longer bound by having 78 decks , and the courts should be based on the medevil system.l yet in my loyalty to the old ways , there should be a good reason for the changes :) i do like the tarot to have both femine and masculine principles yet a person may not think there is isnt enough feminity so they go and add some in there by making their own taort, or a person might say there isn't enough masculinity and go and make strength, force and return it to the image of samson killing the tiger with his bare hands. yet the tarot would work well in both cases. so i am not with you on that one as it would limit my outlook on the tarot so i would never get the gay tarot for example if i stuck to those views ( that is ignorance though for i dont' own the gay tarot for it is not in my area and i don't know if it is male and female energies balance or not) there is no advice on what is the right deck to get ,, the waite such a standard in the north west is still the right deck to get for me. for beginners love the pictures and the amount of books devoted to it.. and users who have studied it for sometime can start to see the astrology, qabbalah, and other symbolism behind the deck as well. still there are more and more people coming to the toth to learn as their main i think. p.s. the reason why i don't study the marseilles is i dont' read french and there is a lack of books on it in north america. p.s. i reccomend getting the book the rabbi tarot, meditions on the tarot, and you may like tarot and individuation as well. for really deep esoteric meaning you may love the book of toth as well.

Cerulean	19 Dec 2004
...this is a lovely question that an e-forum of collectors would LOVE to answer...but as collectors go, some of us do check out the word 'authenticity' and run after the histories. You say: "...believe masculine and feminine attributes are importantly expressed in esoteric ideas,to eliminate them altogether seems hollow.I believe the tarot was designed to express important ideas..." If you'd like to go back in time to the 1910 English-Anglo-language esotericism, many do have variations of the Rider-Smith-Waite deck to recommend that are reasonable in price. If you'd like to go back in time into the perhaps 1600s through the 21st century French Marseilles decks, there are many who have beautiful recommendations as well. Also threads to recommend to start your book or reference search... If you'd like to poke further backwards from the 1400s through the 21st century, there are other historical regional patterns--but it's hard to find books that explain the whole esoteric content of the particular pattern in an 'authentic' way--but they do give you clues and keywords to some of the historical ways of reading decks. I would love to recommend historic recreations that have might have English translations and also Italian links as well...but is that what you wish? Some people who connect with the pagan/celtic/or other paths will be able to actually recommend a beautiful deck that touches on their feel of their older traditions and is also tarotlike in nature. A few keywords to describe your wishes might help others to suggest what works for them. Best wishes! Cerulean

Fudugazi	19 Dec 2004
piscesdreamer wrote: Hi i'm new to the tarot but not to esoteric ideas.I've been wondering what deck to get and was amazed to see how many there are in existence.I think some of them are so far removed from there origin that i feel some of the power might be lost on a lot of them.there are politically correct decks,pop culture oriented decks,starry eyed new age decks,some of them just plain silly.I mean can one take a rock n roll deck seriously and actually find meaning in them as one example.Or the icon deck that eliminates gender,i totally believe masculine and feminine attributes are importantly expressed in esoteric ideas,to eliminate them altogether seems hollow.I believe the tarot was designed to express important ideas,all these frivolous decks seems to deviate from thier true meaning.Anyonne else with me on this?I want advice on the right deck to get,one with authenticity. Hi piscesdreamer, from another dreaming Pisces :) If you want depth and authenticity, then study the Tarot de Marseille ;) But be ready to be stretched and have your imagination, your intuition and your intellect challenged! That's not quite where Tarot started (that privilege belongs to the ancient Italians) but almost, and it has always been a popular as well as fascinating deck, simple and profound, with a system of symbols that was not thrown together by a secret society, but that grew out of common usage and a long and exciting history. Its tradition is still very much alive. I've just started studying it myself and can hardly believe where it's leading me...(the language of birds, springs to mind). But if you prefer other systems, then start with the originals of the movement in question - the Rider-Waite-Smith (which follows the beliefs of the Order of the Golden Dawn, early 20th century), or the Thoth, which follows the beliefs of Aleister Crowley, an esoterist and magician of the 1st half of the 20th century. The deck Lady Harris created for him is very beautiful. Oswald Wirth's Tarot is interesting too, lovely and haunting, and he worked hard on the esoteric links. I'd like to add, having read Cerulean's post, that I agree - once you get into tarot, the question of authenticity does start getting a bit complicated - so much depends on lost decks, oral history, etc. But no matter: the important is to find a deck with a vigorous tradition to support you in your early steps.

HudsonGray	19 Dec 2004
I've heard the Rock & Roll tarot DOES work very well, but you have to know the bands and the people to get the full connections. The Hello Kitty deck could fall into the 'frivolous' group but there are people who do read with that one, though I don't know anyone using the gummy bear deck. And witness the postings recently about the Housewive's tarot that just came out.... there is literally something for everyone, so if the connection is made, it's a working deck. Some are done only as collector's items, it seems, but most on the market endup being actually used. Aeclectic does reviews, as does Tarot Garden and Tarot Passages (and numerous other sites). The different reviews list the positives and negatives of each deck as seen by the reviewers. Not everyone likes or uses the really 'old' historical decks so it's good to have a selection.

Ace	19 Dec 2004
piscesdreamer wrote: I believe the tarot was designed to express important ideas,all these frivolous decks seems to deviate from thier true meaning.Anyonne else with me on this?I want advice on the right deck to get,one with authenticity. Welcome aboard, Piscesdreamer! As for the "right deck" I think you will find there is no one true way. All decks lead someone to the truth somehow. Look for the thread on what decks pack a real punch-some find a "sweet deck" like the Hanson-Roberts really can really tell it like it is! Welcome to a new world to explore, but beware: your mind will be bent like Beckam if you don't watch out!

Fulgour	19 Dec 2004
As a musician interested in the occult and familiar with the Rider-Waite Smith deck, you might consider: Navigators of the Mystic Sea Tarot http://www.tarotpassages.com/mystic2.jpg http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/navigators-mystic-sea/ http://www.astroamerica.com/t-navy2.html (The colors are better in person, not so flourescent.) Michele Jackson writes that this "...deck is quite different in several ways. First, there is the art style: the scenes have a dream or fantasy quality to them. People and objects float through space. The background scenes include mystical forests and futuristic skylines. Otherworldly skies with flaming suns, and seas with modern warships heading towards vessels from centuries ago are in the landscapes..." Don't worry about the heavy book so much, Julia Turk has really actually kept to the Tarot basics in an exciting way.

piscesdreamer	20 Dec 2004
Thanks for the welcomes and replies.My first real introduction to the tarot was the book meditations on the tarot.Though i can't comprehend all he tries to communicate i think his approach to it has influenced the way i think about tarot.He believes the symbols in the cards are to be used as meditation vehicles or "enzymes"where the knowledge imbedded in them is to be absorbed and assimilated,not to be used for divination. I guess i'm a little distrustful of using them for divination as it seems so wide open to interpetation i think it must be very hard to get an accurate reading without some bias.But i am interested in ancient systems of knowldge and i believe the tarot can be a powerful tool from plumbing the depths of ones subconscious.

fyreflye	20 Dec 2004
-delete-

Fudugazi	20 Dec 2004
piscesdreamer wrote: Thanks for the welcomes and replies.My first real introduction to the tarot was the book meditations on the tarot.Though i can't comprehend all he tries to communicate i think his approach to it has influenced the way i think about tarot.He believes the symbols in the cards are to be used as meditation vehicles or "enzymes"where the knowledge imbedded in them is to be absorbed and assimilated,not to be used for divination. I guess i'm a little distrustful of using them for divination as it seems so wide open to interpetation i think it must be very hard to get an accurate reading without some bias.But i am interested in ancient systems of knowldge and i believe the tarot can be a powerful tool from plumbing the depths of ones subconscious. If you are more interested in meditation and self-knowledge, you can start with Mary Greer's book Tarot for Yourself, which works well with all tarot traditions (slightly less well with Tarot de Marseille), and puts you through a series of exercises to use cards to know yourself better, and to help yourself. It has a definite self-help slant. Or if you read French, several French-speaking writers have explored the initiatory "soul journey" aspect of tarot - such as Alain Bocher, who works on the Tarot de Marseille and also designed his own deck (Tarot de la Rea, I don't have it but the scans are magnificent, you can see them on his webiste). Oswald Wirth wrote an influential esoteric book to go with the tarot pack he designed in the early 20th century, and he definitely saw tarot as a tool for initiation. There are others - for example the Meditations on Tarot (is that the one you meant?) by an Unknown Author, probably Russian, written in French but translated into English. As for divination, I have found that the cards come alive for me when I use them both for meditation and divination, by which I mean not predicting the future, but observing and understanding the past-present-future spectrum, which are all one, and part of our soul journey. Of all the decks that have passed thourgh my hands, some of which I still own (I don't tend to keep many at once), the Tarot de Marseille seems to me most fitted for meditation and initiation, followed by Oswald Wirth. But some people swear by the Thoth, which is very deep. The best thing for you would be to try and find some good scans of decks - major and minor arcana - and take your time to look at them to see which ones pull at you. If none do - then the old favourites are probably your best bet to start with.

piscesdreamer	20 Dec 2004
fyreflye wrote: You are fortunate to have received the best possible introduction to the tarot and IMHO your reservations about using it for divination are correct. So...which deck was used to illustrate Tomberg's book? The answer to your original question is right there. Yes i suppose the Marseilles is the one to get then.But which one?And all the virtual pictures i've seen of the deck all seem to be in French.Is there a deck in English?

fyreflye	20 Dec 2004
-delete-

ihcoyc	20 Dec 2004
"Authenticity" is a loaded word: the question is, authentic to what? Historical decks display creativity and variation as well as "tradition." I like them, and read with no other decks now, but this is a personal preference; what I like about these decks has as much to do with their "neutrality", their lack of being strongly marked by belief systems, that makes them attractive to me. Like most dwellers in English speaking countries, I learned from books based on the Waite-Smith tradition. That tradition, and its card meanings, remain with me at the foundation, even if I move away. The somewhat smaller Thoth tradition comes from the same place: from ideas developed in a number of secret societies in England in the late 1800s. Both decks are strongly marked by those traditions. These two decks have more similarities than differences; with one or another, you will learn a common language. This strong marking makes for some divisive tendencies. The Waite-Smith deck has some minor Christian design elements, some inherited from its ancestor the Tarot de Marseille; this prompts the Robin Wood, which Wiccanizes where Waite-Smith Christianizes; but Robin Wood also Wiccanizes away Christian elements that came from the Marseille as well as elements Waite-Smith introduced. (I do like the Robin Wood Wheel of Fortune a lot better than Waite-Smith.) Crowley's strong personality and idiosyncratic ideas come through clearly on the Thoth deck; whether you like it depends on how attractive you find his ideas. With traditional decks like the Tarot de Marseille, another world opens. You might choose to learn one of the Francophone traditions, that differ quite often from the English speaking ones. You get a lot less of other people's interpretations marked on the cards; they can be used with any system, but the learning curve at the start may be harder. Some kind of numerology based system may be appropriate here.

Diana	20 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: If you want depth and authenticity, then study the Tarot de Marseille ;) But be ready to be stretched and have your imagination, your intuition and your intellect challenged! That's not quite where Tarot started (that privilege belongs to the ancient Italians) but almost (........). Helvetica: I think we'll have to take up this discussion (again - we'll probably still be discussing it when we're in old-aged homes, shaking our sticks at each other!!) on the Historical forum. I'm talking about your sentence that the privilege of where Tarot being started belonging to the ancient Italians....

Diana	20 Dec 2004
piscesdreamer wrote: Yes i suppose the Marseilles is the one to get then.But which one?And all the virtual pictures i've seen of the deck all seem to be in French.Is there a deck in English? Yes... get a Marseille deck. Why do you want a deck in English? It's not like there's a lot of words to read on a deck. Which one? Well, you'll probably end up by buying four or five different versions in the end... so it's more a question of which one should you start with. The Historical forum has threads which will help you, I am sure. And if you've read Anonymous's letters to his friends, you'll feel quite at home with a Tarot of Marseilles. :)

fyreflye	20 Dec 2004
-delete-

Nevada	20 Dec 2004
when I began, some sixteen years ago, and if I'd had enough to spend on three or four decks, starting out, I'd go for the traditional. Maybe three different traditions, like a Thoth, a Marseilles, and a Rider-Waite-Smith (RWS). Then I'd splurge on something that was a departure from the traditional but appealed to me aesthetically. But if I could buy only one? My priorities (and these are personal to me, there are sure to be different priorities for different people): Thoth Marseilles (Hadar) Morgan-Greer (I like the looks of it better than RWS) But these priorities are subject to change, since I recently began using the Hadar and I'm finding it quite wonderful. The Morgan-Greer has also grown on me. Oh, it's too difficult to decide! Even now. :confused: Whatever you decide on, you'll have lots of wonderful readings, I'm sure. :) Welcome! Nevada

Fulgour	20 Dec 2004
The Dante Tarot Deck http://www.astroamerica.com/t-dante.html This deck is based on his Divine Comedy

HudsonGray	20 Dec 2004
Remember, if you go with a Marseille type deck you need to study up on what the pictures portray in regards to that historical timeline. The Tower in today's deck is very different from a La Maison-Dieu meaning. The Emperess isn't a 'mother' card and the Lovers was about choices versus duty.

Fudugazi	22 Dec 2004
HudsonGray wrote: Remember, if you go with a Marseille type deck you need to study up on what the pictures portray in regards to that historical timeline. The Tower in today's deck is very different from a La Maison-Dieu meaning. The Emperess isn't a 'mother' card and the Lovers was about choices versus duty. Not quite as fixed and stiff as that, as I am finding out, HudsonGray. L'Imperatrice has some motherly aspects as she is the active, creative side of the female. Maybe not as overt as, say, the Robin Wood Empress, but it is an aspect of her manifestation. The Tarot de Marseille hasn't got as rigid a meaning system as is often mis-thought, because it is not overt - or at least, not to us and - for one like me who has come from a RW system, Tarot de Marseille appears more fluid and more demanding of the reader's imagination, intuition and intellect than either the RW or Thoth systems. But that could just be me falling in love ;)

contrascarpe	22 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: If you want depth and authenticity, then study the Tarot de Marseille ;) Um, why? As ihcoyc states, Authenticity is a loaded question. I am not sure why the Marseille is considered authentic and others are not. This is not to start another flamewar against the Marseille - I respect it and, even though some still ridicule us of French descent, respect the heck out of it. But it seems to me that the history of tarot is vague enough that the one "authentic" tarot is not known. I would also like to know why the Marseille is so deep. If I'm not mistaken, the origin of the deck was for use as playing cards, and if so, the decks used at my local casino are just as deep. Dan

Fulgour	22 Dec 2004
contrascarpe wrote: I would also like to know why the Marseille is so deep. If I'm not mistaken, the origin of the deck was for use as playing cards, and if so, the decks used at my local casino are just as deep. Do please let us know? Meanwhile, I'll rethink my life ;)

contrascarpe	22 Dec 2004
Fulgour wrote: Do please let us know? Meanwhile, I'll rethink my life ;) My point is, people throw around "facts" that a certain deck is the ultimate in authenticity and depth with nothing concrete to back it up. If I can be convinced that it is, maybe I will rethink my life ;)

Fulgour	22 Dec 2004
Fair enough, contrascarpe :laugh: ...but it's a safe bet, even if a person doesn't get Shakespeare, that their favourite modern author does. I hope we all see that it's what we do agree on that counts, in every way!

jmd	22 Dec 2004
As the 'Unknown Author' of Meditations on the Tarot refers to the Grimaud Marseille within the book, perhaps start from there, piscesdreamer.

HudsonGray	22 Dec 2004
"L'Imperatrice has some motherly aspects as she is the active, creative side of the female." Some, yes, but a Lady of means (upper class, as there generally was no 'middle class' outside of the merchant group) didn't raise her own children. She'd give birth, then hand them off to a wet nurse to be fed and raised, and the other lady would do the care and training of the children. The Lady herself would be looking to help run the husband's businesses and duties, if he let her. If she was just a trophy wife that got land in his grasp with the wedding, she may not have been allowed to do much of anything at all. The classes were pretty stratified back then. The more common meaning of the Empress now is a much wider mother role since we all raise our own kids. The farm wives back in the Middle Ages did everything the men did out in the field pretty much, but the men claimed all the money and property. Not a fair shake, but that's how things were 200-800 years ago. Those women aren't featured on the Empress card, there weren't many low born women shown in the decks back then generally.

ihcoyc	23 Dec 2004
contrascarpe wrote: I would also like to know why the Marseille is so deep. If I'm not mistaken, the origin of the deck was for use as playing cards, and if so, the decks used at my local casino are just as deep. At least as far as I am concerned, it is not "depth" that makes the Tarot de Marseille vital. In a way, it is lack of depth, or more precisely, lack of pseudo-profundity: the absence of Hebrew letters, sphinxes, astrological symbols, lemniscuses, Masonic symbols, and other such inventions. What the TdM gives you are iconic representations of fairly standardized traditional emblems, without being dipped in anybody's theory about how mystical and profound they are.

Diana	23 Dec 2004
contrascarpe wrote: If I'm not mistaken, the origin of the deck was for use as playing cards A playing cards origin cannot be verified historically. (After one has used this deck for some time, it becomes more and more obvious to most who use it that it was not designed for playing a card game ... unless Life is a Game, and then perhaps yes... it was designed for Playing.)

Fudugazi	23 Dec 2004
contrascarpe wrote: Authenticity is a loaded question. I am not sure why the Marseille is considered authentic and others are not. This is not to start another flamewar against the Marseille - I respect it and, even though some still ridicule us of French descent, respect the heck out of it. But it seems to me that the history of tarot is vague enough that the one "authentic" tarot is not known. I would also like to know why the Marseille is so deep. If I'm not mistaken, the origin of the deck was for use as playing cards, and if so, the decks used at my local casino are just as deep. Well, the ;) sign did indicate a slightly tongue-in-cheek attitude. However, I would say the Marseille is an authentic tradition, authentic because its roots are deep in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and not the reflection of a single person's or secret society's point of view. Of course, one could argue that the Thoth is an authentic reflection of Aleister Crowley and Lady Harris' beliefs! If you read the rest of the thread, you'll have seen that the question of authenticity is described (by myself, inter alia) as complicated. No-one knows why Tarot was created - the use of trumps as well as ordinary playing pips argues against them being solely for playing, though undoubtedly people did and do play the game of tarot. Some people consider divination to be the frivolous activity ;) Having come from the Rider Waite system, being fairly familiar with the Thoth, I am finding in practice the Tarot de Marseille to be very deep indeed.

Fudugazi	23 Dec 2004
HudsonGray wrote: a Lady of means (upper class, as there generally was no 'middle class' outside of the merchant group) didn't raise her own children. She'd give birth, then hand them off to a wet nurse to be fed and raised, and the other lady would do the care and training of the children. The Lady herself would be looking to help run the husband's businesses and duties, if he let her. If she was just a trophy wife that got land in his grasp with the wedding, she may not have been allowed to do much of anything at all. The classes were pretty stratified back then. The more common meaning of the Empress now is a much wider mother role since we all raise our own kids. All of what you say about the Medieval and Early Modern noblewoman is true. But l'Imperatrice is not a historical figure. She is an archetype. The archetype of the active female - which includes the mother. The meaning of motherhood has changed, throughout the ages, and it is only in our age, and in the Western world, that we have come to see the mother as the sole, or even the primary, provider of physical care for her own child. Before that - and it is still the case in many societies - the grandmother, or an elder sister (among the common folk and small tradespeople) and a paid servant (among the merchant and aristocratic classes) were more likely to provide physical care to the family's children. "Motherhood" was fertility - the ability to produce children - and moral and emotional guidance. One famous close relationship between mother and child among the nobility of the 15th Century was between Galeazzo Maria Sforza and his mother, though I have no doubt someone else breast-fed him and changed his nappies. He was the one who ordered one of the (and possibly the) oldest Tarot deck ever - the Visconti-Sforza. HudsonGray wrote: The farm wives back in the Middle Ages did everything the men did out in the field pretty much, but the men claimed all the money and property. Not a fair shake, but that's how things were 200-800 years ago. Those women aren't featured on the Empress card, there weren't many low born women shown in the decks back then generally. This is still the case in most of the world. But I don't think anyone would seriously dispute the fact that the African or Asian women who work the fields and leave their children in the care of elder children for part of the day are not real mothers. I don't think the Tarot is primarily about class representation, despite the name "l'Imperatice". And as a historical document, it is rather sketchy!

Fudugazi	23 Dec 2004
ihcoyc wrote: At least as far as I am concerned, it is not "depth" that makes the Tarot de Marseille vital. In a way, it is lack of depth , or more precisely, lack of pseudo-profundity: the absence of Hebrew letters, sphinxes, astrological symbols, lemniscuses, Masonic symbols, and other such inventions. What the TdM gives you are iconic representations of fairly standardized traditional emblems, without being dipped in anybody's theory about how mystical and profound they are. And therein lies its depth...

piscesdreamer	28 Dec 2004
So i can only conclude that there is one deck handed down that represents the true and original tarot...all others are fanciful reproductions reflecting the artists imagination,spiritual leanings and bias.

laura_borealis	28 Dec 2004
piscesdreamer wrote: So i can only conclude that there is one deck handed down that represents the true and original tarot...all others are fanciful reproductions reflecting the artists imagination,spiritual leanings and bias. Or you could conclude that there is one deck that is probably very close to the (unknown) original, which has been used for centuries, and which is the source of infinite discussions around authenticity, meaning, etc. And then you could choose to study it with those who have invited you to the appropriate forum, or continue to search for the deck that *you* find most meaningful to you. Or both. :)

Tarot Sparrow	28 Dec 2004
True, there are many decks that stray from tarot, most of which may be considered oracles or simply art decks. But if one chooses to use any deck (or any item, for that matter) as a tool and can find meaning in it, I believe it is worthy. As for non-tarots claiming to be tarots, it can be annoying at times..

Sophie-David	28 Dec 2004
piscesdreamer wrote: So i can only conclude that there is one deck handed down that represents the true and original tarot...all others are fanciful reproductions reflecting the artists imagination,spiritual leanings and bias. With respect, I don't think I could conclude that based on this very interesting and diverse discussion. But for me the first two replies on page 1, by Contrascarpe and Gardener, said all that needed to be said. For general meditational use, I would think that you would need a deck that captures your imagination - just browse the scans in Aeclectics deck reviews: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/list.shtml As I'm sure you've discovered, almost anything can be used for meditation: Time Magazine, natural objects, an Art Book, even a series of index cards with words typed on them. However, for a more or less directed meditation on the book you found inspiring, I concur with jmd: jmd wrote: As the 'Unknown Author' of Meditations on the Tarot refers to the Grimaud Marseille within the book, perhaps start from there, piscesdreamer. Cheers, and Welcome to AT! David

Magi	30 Dec 2004
This is my theory on the tarot. I see the Tarot as a living orginisim, growing and changeing as the human race progress. This is not as far fetched as it may sound. All life grows in acordance to a set of numbers, called the Fibinachi sequence. Ex. 1,2,3,5,8,13 ect. The temple of Amun in Karnak, Egypt grew according to this sequence, and in that aspect, was the living body of Amun. The tarot grows and changes in the same aspect. thus the question of an authentic tarot is void. yes, you could have a more historical deck, but will you read read it in the exact same manner that it was read during the time period that the deck was desinged? No, you can't because you didn't live during that time, and you lack the mind of some one who did live during that time. the tarot has grew and evolved as we have. What is important is that you have a deep meaningful connection with the tarot you have chosen. With out that connection you cannot fully understand the tarot on all it's many layers. thank you for your time. blessings, Magi

Frank Hall	30 Dec 2004
Well considered,Magi. It is not a question of the original "Ur" Tarot, since the Tarot, like humanity itself, evolves and transforms. While the Tarot does not originate in ancient Egypt or Greece, it does present itself as a series of mysterious "Hieroglyphs" or symbols such as Pythagoreans arranged, so its first body may be Milanese or Marseilles, but its soul may be ancient Egyptian and Greek, and modern, too. The truths the Tarot pictures are in time but beyond time--- look to Justice, Wheel, Death, Temperance, World . These are Human pictures , not just Tarot pictures. And these Hieroglyphs do not stand still. The Renaissance Wheel and Levi's Wheel and Crowley-Harris' Wheel and Roots of Asia Wheel are Wheels that point to the Wheel outside their individual or collective Wheels. Wheel of the Human Soul, always turning.

piscesdreamer	30 Dec 2004
Magi wrote: This is my theory on the tarot. I see the Tarot as a living orginisim, growing and changeing as the human race progress. This is not as far fetched as it may sound. All life grows in acordance to a set of numbers, called the Fibinachi sequence. Ex. 1,2,3,5,8,13 ect. The temple of Amun in Karnak, Egypt grew according to this sequence, and in that aspect, was the living body of Amun. The tarot grows and changes in the same aspect. thus the question of an authentic tarot is void. yes, you could have a more historical deck, but will you read read it in the exact same manner that it was read during the time period that the deck was desinged? No, you can't because you didn't live during that time, and you lack the mind of some one who did live during that time. the tarot has grew and evolved as we have. What is important is that you have a deep meaningful connection with the tarot you have chosen. With out that connection you cannot fully understand the tarot on all it's many layers. thank you for your time. blessings, Magi That is a very good point you are making,and i thank you for clarifying and putting the tarot in a perspective i had not thought of.

Magi	30 Dec 2004
The tarot we have today is decended from Egyptian esoteric scrolls. No these scrolls were not used like we use the tarot today, but this is where the soul of the tarot originates. Egyptian scrolls, like the book of the dead, were made up of sections that had no set order. Why? Because each soul is diferent. The first card embodyment of the tarot may, as it was said, have been the marsille tarot. But the tarot has been with us much longer than that.

Fudugazi	30 Dec 2004
I wish people would stop referring to the Tarot de Marseille as a "historical deck" as though it were passé and old hat. It has its roots in the Middle Ages, but in much of Europe it is the only type of deck in existence NOW; and it has been revived and revitalised by a number of modern tarotists (Marteau in the 1920s, and closer to us - Hadar, Camoin&Jodorowski, Fournier,...). It is alive! I like many types of Tarot decks, and a couple I love- for reading, for beauty, for inspiration. But I would say for discipline, for stretching the imagination and intellect, for getting to the very heart of what tarot is -in all its youthful, unsophisticated, honest, spiritual vigour - nothing beats the Marseille.

Fudugazi	30 Dec 2004
Magi wrote: The tarot we have today is decended from Egyptian esoteric scrolls. I don't agree: the Tarot was born in the European Middle Ages, on the cusp of the Renaissance. The Egyptian "link" is a pure invention of 18th-19th Century esoterists, who despised the Middle Ages (called them the "Dark Ages"). Ancient Egypt was an unknown entity in Europe between the late Antiquity and the late 18th - early 19th century AD - the start of the archeology craze - which also brought about a craze in pseudo- Egyptian "connections" to all sorts of familiar European beliefs and objects.

Alta	30 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: I don't agree: the Tarot was born in the European Middle Ages, on the cusp of the Renaissance. hum, I have the impression that is not an agreed-upon fact by tarot historians. There seems to be some significant disagreement on it. However, not being a tarot historian myself... :)

Fulgour	30 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: ...the Tarot was born in the European Middle Ages, on the cusp of the Renaissance. The Egyptian "link" is a pure invention... Truth is an absolute, and the Tarot is Truth. Each particular that we find in the Tarot has been a fact of life since the dawn of time. Before the Egyptians, past even Babylon and Chaldea, further even than Mesopotamia, and beyond Sumeria, the things that Tarot was created from were there. People in the Middle Ages knew a lot more than we give them credit for. I think they knew a lot more than us. They knew how to interpret a pefectly simple pack of Tarot cards.

Rosanne	31 Dec 2004
It is almost New Years Eve and I have been reading this thread avidly. Ok Helvetica.. Im convinced. I am going to study Marseilles. Why..cause I am ready to be stretched and challenged, not to mention -understand birds. But Which Deck? Theres Conver and Convos, Jodorowski and Hadar and others I havent even seen yet. French even. Moi? Je parlez vous francais une petit per. This is not like choosing an Art Deck. This is serious stuff. I don't get that 'oh Thats a must have' feeling when I look at Marseilles samples. So what should be my guiding light? Is it the colours Green tones versus Red and Blue? I have absolutly no idea how to choose. By the way Thanks to the lovely person who started this thread(Piscesdreamer), I agree all Decks have their Authenticity, even ones that have jumped on some bandwagon or other. New Years Greetings and safe journeys to all Regards Rosanne

Magi	31 Dec 2004
Never did I state thet the tarot it's self came from egypt. I said that the tarot was based on Egyptian esoteric scrolls. Such as being a book with pages that can be moved aboet but the book itself still provide a understandabel story of humanity. scrolls such as this were the forebearers of the tarot.

Fudugazi	31 Dec 2004
Fulgour wrote: Truth is an absolute, and the Tarot is Truth. Each particular that we find in the Tarot has been a fact of life since the dawn of time. Before the Egyptians, past even Babylon and Chaldea, further even than Mesopotamia, and beyond Sumeria, the things that Tarot was created from were there. People in the Middle Ages knew a lot more than we give them credit for. I think they knew a lot more than us. They knew how to interpret a pefectly simple pack of Tarot cards. I have a great love and admiration for the Middle Ages. But I am not at all certain that Middle Age man knew about Chaldean astronomy as well as you do. What I would say, however, is that the Tarot Majors shows us some universal archetypes that had probably been around since history began, and possibly before. That's why they can resonate as far away from their birthplace as California, India and Japan; as far away from their birth time as here and now in the 21st Century, when most people even in Europe wouldn't know a mystery play from a Reynart tale. But to occlude the Middle Ages because of some hocus pocus 18th century occultists (never was an epithet better used) is a great insult to the anonymous makers of the Tarot, who used those disparate archetypes that existed in collective memory, and made them into the wonderful system and imagery we know today. As for the pips - from what I understand, I think it fairly well established they came to Europe from Arab lands, whence they had arrived from China. It is a credit to the makers of Tarot that they were able to use those Naïbis so flexibly.

Fudugazi	31 Dec 2004
Rosanne wrote: It is almost New Years Eve and I have been reading this thread avidly. Ok Helvetica.. Im convinced. I am going to study Marseilles. Why..cause I am ready to be stretched and challenged, not to mention -understand birds. But Which Deck? Theres Conver and Convos, Jodorowski and Hadar and others I havent even seen yet. French even. Moi? Je parlez vous francais une petit per. This is not like choosing an Art Deck. This is serious stuff. I don't get that 'oh Thats a must have' feeling when I look at Marseilles samples. So what should be my guiding light? Is it the colours Green tones versus Red and Blue? I have absolutly no idea how to choose. By the way Thanks to the lovely person who started this thread(Piscesdreamer), I agree all Decks have their Authenticity, even ones that have jumped on some bandwagon or other. New Years Greetings and safe journeys to all Regards Rosanne If you like bright colours, then Fournier and Camoin-Jodorowsky are good choices; if you like the old reproduction feel, then Héron Conver is lovely; if you like a more muted look, then Hadar has its fans. But I am a mere beginner and have a tiny Marseille collection ;) My favourite are the Flornoy recreation of Dodal, but that's only the Majors. My daily decks are Camoin-Jodorowsky, because I work with Jodo's book, and Héron Conver for comparison. I think I'll go for another in the New Year - again for comparison. Hadar has a site in two languages. Camoin and Flornoy also. There are a few English-language books on the TdM, including the Meditations on the Tarot (jmd recommended the translation), and one by Gareth Knight. enjoy shopping around!

Fudugazi	31 Dec 2004
Magi wrote: Never did I state thet the tarot it's self came from egypt. I said that the tarot was based on Egyptian esoteric scrolls. Such as being a book with pages that can be moved aboet but the book itself still provide a understandabel story of humanity. scrolls such as this were the forebearers of the tarot. Sorry, Magi, I misunderstood you. I get a bit excited about this Egyptian connection. Which scrolls are these? The mention reminds me a bit of the book that sits on the lap of the Papesse/High Priestess.

Fulgour	31 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: But to occlude the Middle Ages because of some hocus pocus 18th century occultists (never was an epithet better used) is a great insult to the anonymous makers of the Tarot, who used those disparate archetypes that existed in collective memory, and made them into the wonderful system and imagery we know today. Occlude. Do you mean arteries or teeth? As for the "Middle Ages Man" we're not talking about Joe Six-Pack as the creator of Tarot are we? The only great insult I see is to say that 'we only have our ignorance' and the Tarot is some vast unknowable collection of medieval VIBES.

Fudugazi	31 Dec 2004
Fulgour wrote: Occlude. Do you mean arteries or teeth? As for the "Middle Ages Man" we're not talking about Joe Six-Pack as the creator of Tarot are we? The only great insult I see is to say that 'we only have our ignorance' and the Tarot is some vast unknowable collection of medieval VIBES . Very funny. Obliterate? Zap? Not vibes. Images, beliefs, modes of transmission. Where did you get the vibes idea out of my post???? I'd be the last person to talk about "vibes" (except when mentioning some types of music, et encore...). OK, I've just had a look at my Dictionary of the Middle Ages at the article on astronomy (as a sample). "Medieval European Man" (let's say Adelard of Bath as another sample, rather than Joe Six-Pack) - at least its very tiny literate elite - knew some of the Arab astronomy treatises, which formed the basis of its own astronomy between the XIth and the XVIIth centuries. From the late XIIth century with Gerard of Cremona's translation from the Arabic, "he" knew about Ptolemaic astronomy. On the basis that Ptolemy might have used some notions of Babylonian and Chaldean astronomy, then "Medieval Man" had some notions of Babylonian and Chaldean astonomy, seen through the prism of Hellenic thought, then Arabic thought, and translated into European thought (in latin) of the 12th century. This does not make for very direct knowledge, but there is some distant connection. Is that what you meant? If I wrote about universal archetypes, I implied some kind of transmission across time and cultures, not astral travel or vibes. Such transmissions are so diverse and layered that we may never know all of them (trade, war, marriage, Marco Polo, slavery, ambassadorial trips and exchanges of gifts, monastic networks, fishing expeditions, refugees, etc.). With a few exceptions (like the rediscovery, after 1453, by Western European intellectuals of the great Greek texts of the Antiquity), most developments in human thought (in which I shall place the Tarot) are not attributable to a single source, scroll, secret text or secret tout court. I have a feeling we are at cross-purposes here. Are we? Happy New Year!

Fulgour	31 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: On the basis that Ptolemy might have used some notions of Babylonian and Chaldean astronomy, then "Medieval Man" had some notions of Babylonian and Chaldean astonomy, seen through the prism of Hellenic thought, then Arabic thought, and translated into European thought (in latin) of the 12th century. This does not make for very direct knowledge, but there is some distant connection. Is that what you meant? ~ Happy New Year! This actually sounds expensive ~ what do you suppose the full course would run Johnny Medieval back in the day? And who cares, really...:) Tarot is not hard to figure out, it does require determination to study, but if you're seeking the Truth, the direct route is always the best one! You seem to have become newly fascinated with historical iconography, so rather than risk seeming cross purposes, let's say:

Fudugazi	01 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: You seem to have become newly fascinated with historical iconography, so rather than risk seeming cross purposes, let's say: Not newly fascinated - let's say I am rediscovering a passion I had set aside a few years ago when life took me places that didn't accomodate internet research, a good public library and a large battery of books ;) I am rusty but typically enthusiastic! May 2005 bring more joys of discovery too!

Kiama	01 Jan 2005
Hhhmmm, 'authenticity'. I've come to think that its is not a deck that can be 'authentic', but simply the messages and concepts we can learn from the Tarot that are authentic. And of course, because we're all different, we'll all find these messages and concepts in different ways, in different decks, in different numbers of decks... Kiama

Frank Hall	01 Jan 2005
HAPPY NEW YEAR FROM WASHINGTON,DC. Thanks to all for your seekings and discoverings. " Recognize what is right in front of you, and that which is hidden from you will be revealed to you " --- Saying 5, Gospel of Thomas. May this apply to all of us with our various Tarots " right in front of us."

Magi	01 Jan 2005
The best example of a scroll I can think of is the book of the dead, Wich is a guide that is needed for a soul to make the journy through the underworld to be judged and hopefully gain enterance to the feild of reeds.

Fudugazi	01 Jan 2005
Magi wrote: The best example of a scroll I can think of is the book of the dead, Wich is a guide that is needed for a soul to make the journy through the underworld to be judged and hopefully gain enterance to the feild of reeds. This would be a good scroll to feature on the High Priestess' knee: as she is related to Isis - also Innana/Ishtar (in Mesopotamian mythology, and seen as equivalent to Isis) - who made a journey to the underworld.

Magi	02 Jan 2005
verry cool idea.Verry cool indeed.

Fulgour	16 Jan 2005
piscesdreamer wrote: i decided on a rider waite and liked the coloring of the radiant version and bought it today. Congratulations!

Fudugazi	16 Jan 2005
Fulgour, a few weeks ago you wrote: Fulgour wrote: Each particular that we find in the Tarot has been a fact of life since the dawn of time. Before the Egyptians, past even Babylon and Chaldea, further even than Mesopotamia, and beyond Sumeria, the things that Tarot was created from were there. People in the Middle Ages knew a lot more than we give them credit for. I think they knew a lot more than us. And I answered: Helvetica wrote: I have a great love and admiration for the Middle Ages. But I am not at all certain that Middle Age man knew about Chaldean astronomy as well as you do. Browsing just now, I found a text by Daana Mindon (Diana O'Donovan) at:http://www.tarotpassages.com/magus-dm.htm#_ftn1 about the origin of the Magus/Bateleur image, linking it to an image made by a 12th century monk, Michael Scot, in Sicily for the King Frederick II. The article is long and fascinating, and I'll let you read it if you haven't already. But here's the point I wanted to get to: Though to us it may seem extraordinary that a Christian monastic scholar in Sicily of the 12th century should have any knowledge of the ancient stars and gods, an extraordinary amount of such information did survive the centuries up until the demise of monastic scholarship of the older sort. The forms and characters of the Egyptian and Babylonian gods, as well as their astronomical identities, were recorded in western Christian Europe as early as the ninth century, as noted above, and from Scot’s time the subject would (for a while) become of renewed interest to the educated of the west. Scot’s inscription ‘Juppiter” reminds him, and us, of connection between Auriga and the chief of the Babylonian gods, Marduk and his messenger-planet. Seems you were right and I should go back to my teeth occlusions ;) Sophie

Fulgour	18 Jan 2005
The article referenced appears to be presenting a particular set of correlations in order to support a scholarly conclusion, yet as we know, taken individually, any single card can be proven to be any single thing. The trick is to match all 22. Nothing works as well as the "original" Phoenician alphabet, which has since been adopted and adapted countless times, but in its pure form, without any hint of gematria, endures. Still, hooray for such scholarship, and thank you, Helvetica.

The A question on authenticity thread was originally posted on 19 Dec 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.