Rider Clones: Universal Waite vs. Radiant vs Albano ad infinitum

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 03 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Scion	03 Dec 2004
So over Thanksgiving I was visiting my family down in Texas and stupidly forgot to bring any of my current reading decks... so naturally the first thing everyone wanted after dinner was readings. I dug around in my childhood shelves and found my old, trusty Rider-Waite and it promptly blew me away. I've been using the International Icon most often these days, and love it passionately. But I'd forgotten what singular readings the original RW gave. After a 6 hour marathon of readings for every member of my family, I reluctantly returned my old RWS to its shelf for my next visit. Thing is, now I'm back home in NYC and I'm kinda wanting to poke around in a straight RW deck, but maybe something a little fresher in terms of coloring. I was thinking I might go for a clone that's close to the Waite/Colman-Smith source, rather than a reinvention. I have the LS Universal, but even that deck fudges some of the symbols/details. SO... I'm putting it out to all of y'all: What is your favorite strict Rider Waite clone/recoloring? And more importantly, why? How do you think these various clones compare to each other? Thanks in advance. Scion

Rusty Neon	03 Dec 2004
I prefer a commercially-available R-W deck version that most closely follows the colours of the Rider deck as published by Rider in 1909. Thus, I would prefer the US Games Rider-Waite Tarot. I have also heard good things about the out-of-print deck from the 70s, the University Books edition of the R-W. In terms of decks that vary from the 1909 Rider, I like the Hoi Polloi deck. Brings to mind good feelings of freedom and flower-power from the 70s. The 70s and 80s were a golden period of postmodern tarot. :)

Emily	03 Dec 2004
I too also think that some of the recoloured versions miss out on symbolism. I have the Universal Waite and the Radiant Waite and its amazing how much is missed when you compare to the Rider Waite. I wouldn't go for the Original Rider Waite because its got very limited colours and dark black outlining, unless you like that kind of artwork - I have this deck though and although its a deck you get used to, it wouldn't be my first choice. The Universal Waite and the Radiant Waite are very similiar to each other - except the colourings but the Radiant isn't hurtful to the eyes, its a nice deck. Either of these are good just as long as you don't mind not seeing some of the symbolism you'll find in the Rider Waite. :) Good luck with your search :) I've just taken delivery of the Giant Rider Waite and its amazing - large cards full of symbolism.

tatsi	03 Dec 2004
Scion wrote: What is your favorite strict Rider Waite clone/recoloring? And more importantly, why? How do you think these various clones compare to each other? I like the Universal Waite Tarot. The first deck I ever had was the RWS Tarot, but the coloring left me cold. I tend to like decks that use medium to strong non-garish coloring rather than very soft or pastel coloring. I was initially worried that Universal Waite's coloring wasn't strong enough for me to connect with, but it is. I personally categorize it as a soft to light-medium coloring. I know that doesn't make sense to you, it's a personal thing. Since I like stronger coloring, I thought I'd check out ones that were. Of the ones that didn't seem garish to me, I decided to check out the Illuminated Tarot and the Radiant Waite Tarot. If I'm in a particularly fun mood, I might use the Illuminated Tarot. However, I personally would not use this on a consistent daily basis. I really thought the Radiant Waite Tarot would be a great complement to the Universal Waite Tarot when I needed a stronger coloring, but I did not like the deck. I was personally put off by the overuse of certain colors such as purple. In a strange way, even though the colors used were stronger, the deck seemed softer to me. Let me try to explain. The crispness of the image seemed dull, unlike the Universal Waite's. This lack of crispness and the oversue of certain colors translated into me not liking the deck. To recap my personal strict Rider Waite deck search: RWS - Coloring left me cold, so I returned the deck. Universal Waite Tarot - Even though colored with colored pencils, this isn't a soft deck. Overall it has a nice consistent and balanced coloring strength. Not too soft or too strong. This is my go-to strict Rider Waite clone/recoloring deck. Illuminated Tarot - Fun deck, but I would not use on a daily basis. I keep it mainly as a collectable. If I'm ever in a fun mood, then I'm sure this would be one I'd use. Radiant Waite Tarot - Even though uses stronger colors, the lack of crispness of the images actually leaves the deck softer than Universal Waite's. Also, it overuses certain colors (e.g. purple), so I returned this deck. Hope this helps. tatsi

lark	03 Dec 2004
Here's a site that really helped me decide which decks to pick. http://www.lelandra.com/rwsclones/tarotrwspcsline.htm

tatsi	03 Dec 2004
Lark, Thanks for posting this link. This site really helped me in my quest. Check out this entire site, not just to the linked page. If you want a Rider Waite clone, this is the site to go to. tatsi

Scion	03 Dec 2004
tatsi wrote: Lark, thanks for posting this link. This site really helped me in my quest. Check out this entire site, not just to the linked page. If you want a Rider Waite Clone, this is the site to go to. tatsi An excellent resource! Although I gotta say , tatsi, your reply was EXACTLY what I'm looking for... more of a gut-level, hands-on, personal reaction to the various options, because the scans are never the same (there's a wisdom there somewhere). But all useful... I'm very much looking forward to other people's takes on the RW clone options. Scion

tatsi	03 Dec 2004
Scion wrote: tatsi, your reply was EXACTLY what I'm looking for... more of a gut-level, hands-on, personal reaction to the various options, because the scans are never the same (there's a wisdom there somewhere). I'm pleased that my comments helped. I tend to like decks that follow RWS. I too, will be looking forward to other people's take on the RWS clone options. There could be a 'gem' out there I don't know about. tatsi

FantasyWorld	03 Dec 2004
Arcus Arcanum Tarot Flavio just posted about this deck. Check it out (hard to find but 1 is for bid right now on Ebay) http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/arcus-arcanum/ Plus there are 4 reviews of it at Tarotpassages.com. ps. tarot garden has it available for $20.00 as well. pss. it's not quite a rws clone but it's a cool deck that it similar in many ways.

Scion	03 Dec 2004
FantasyWorld wrote: Arcus Arcanum Tarot it's not quite a rws clone but it's a cool deck that it similar in many ways. I know what you mean. I like the Arcus Arcanum.. but although it's set in the same medieval/fantasy realm, it doesn't seem to have a whole lot in common with the RW imagewise. It really is it's own beast... I'm more curious about people's experience with recolourings of the RWS or in pretty close clones. With the RW, every detail seems purposeful; so I'm jonesing for a (slightly more aesthetic) gloss on the Colman-Smith pictures. Scion

Cerulean	04 Dec 2004
I have a 1971 Rider Waite with Accurate Color Tones on the box and the U.S. Games old Park Avenue address...the coloring is more subtle than what is available from a store shelf and the finish is matte as opposed to slippery-shiny-fall-on-the-floor-waterfall plastic finish. It was a used bookstore find for eight dollars. Lovely for readings, I wanted alternatives to 'save' it. When I found a 1959 University Press color printing of the Pictorial Key to the Tarot with Gertrude Moakley's commentary of 'here's a first color printing..,' I found the colors to be within two shades of the 1971 U.S. Games deck. I liked the coloring better than the more modern decks, as well. The book was in such good condition, it was donated to a museum-bound collection. I bought for about ten to twenty dollars each the following: the 1970's University Books cards with the pink and white back and it was very very pretty alternative, for a nice Spring or Summer day; the 1968 Frankie Albano Waite that uses colors similar to the Los Angeles-based B.O.T.A. coloring directions...this one is striking to me, because I also found it's Lovers card was used in fan collectible for the 1969 U.S. Production of Hair...I just found this all out last week...at various times, I had the Hoi Polloi, but they seemed a muddier alternative--so I gladly traded them away. These should cost from ten to to thirty dollars, used, all cards and if possible, original box and instructions. My latest buy will be a seven dollar blue-based Tarot Sutra...but it's coming on a slow truck from the Midwest, so I may not get it until January... Regards, Cerulean

noby	04 Dec 2004
Unfortunately, from my comparison studies, none of the re-coloured RWS "Clone" decks retain every detail and nuance of Pamela Coleman-Smith's great line drawings. So the cards lose a little something in the translation. But personally, the original coloring of the RWS is displeasing enough to my aesthetic taste that I chose the Universal over the original. I don't get how other people don't see the huge difference between the Universal and the Radiant when it comes to how each re-coloring affects the original art, though. Just look at the card images online - the Radiant loses a lot more of Pamela Coleman-Smith's details than the Universal. The facial expressions in the Radiant are often reduced to personality-free, zombie-like "blank" expressions, whereas the Universal occasionally loses a nuance here and there, but generally retains the personality PCS drew into each card. The Empress and the High Priestess are particularly strong examples of this effect in the Radiant. And another thing which others have noted is that while sometimes the re-colorings lose details that were in the original, a lot of times they reveal details that the garish coloring of the original made hard to see, and the richer colors often reveal connections between cards that were harder to note in the original. While it seems that the Albano-Waite retains more of the details in the original drawings, I really don't like it, because the color choices really don't seem to reflect the moods, elemental connections, or other aspects of the cards properly. It seems to me that there still hasn't been a perfect re-coloring of the original RWS. As much as I like the Universal, it still leaves much to be desired. The re-coloring makes some figures look more cartoony than they originally did - a good example of this is the Universal Waite Knight of Wands. The horse looks really "Sesame Street"-ish in the Universal, and it really bugs me. But then, there's some touches in the Universal that make me like the cards better than in the original. I like the UW Magician a lot better than the original. And so on. In the end, it's a compromise either way, but out of the RWS clones I've examined, I definitely prefer the Universal to any of the others.

HearthCricket	04 Dec 2004
Isn't it amazing how important colouring of the cards is to each of us? Thank goodness there are so many decks out there to please us all! I never could get into the RW, though I suppose the Universal was my favourite of all. I like ones with RW themes, and love "jewel tones"-sapphire blue, ruby red, emerald green, amethyst purple. So the Sacred Rose Deck really called out to me, but that was 20 years ago!. And that is probably why I love the Gilded, too...the colours. But I also find my taste changes, and as my very first deck was the Swiss, I sort of miss those more muted and original colours, and am ever so tempted to go back and try it out. When I last pulled out my Universal, I was a bit bored of it. That is what happens when you stare at the Gilded for hours on end!

Rusty Neon	07 Apr 2005
Cerulean wrote: I have a 1971 Rider Waite with Accurate Color Tones on the box and the U.S. Games old Park Avenue address...the coloring is more subtle than what is available from a store shelf and the finish is matte as opposed to slippery-shiny-fall-on-the-floor-waterfall plastic finish. It was a used bookstore find for eight dollars. Lovely for readings, I wanted alternatives to 'save' it. Hi Cerulean, In today's mail, I received a U.S. Games Rider-Waite deck (and the cards inside the box were still cellophane-wrapped). Unlike later editions, the box to this deck doesn't have the barcodes on the bottom. The box says "Accurate Color Tones". The U.S. Games address on the box is New York, N.Y. 10016. The U.S. Games address on the front page of the LWB is 38 East 32nd Street, New York, N.Y. 10016 (rather than the Park Avenue, NY, NY address). Even so, the cards are matte finish (rather than shiny finish) and, unlike the later U.S. Games edition, the deck that I received today doesn't have the typical U.S. Games 1971 copyright notice. I'm curious as to what differences, if any, there might be as between the cards of the 32nd Street deck vs. the Park Avenue deck. The matte finish isn't a decisive dating factor, as I have later, pre-font-change U.S. Games Rider-Waite decks whose cards have matte finish. **EDITED TO SAY: The 32nd Street deck's card are less shiny than those later cards. By the way, does anyone know the retail price for the U.S. Games Rider-Waite deck in 1971? There's a $8.00 price sticker from "St. Michael's Candle Shops, Palo Alto, San Francisco" on the back side of the box to my deck.

Cerulean	07 Apr 2005
This was last summer, I believe. Best wishes, Cerulean

Rusty Neon	07 Apr 2005
My hunch is that the $8.00 price sticker on my deck is probably the price for the deck when it was bought new. Cerulean, do you know anything about the 32nd Street deck (versus the Park Avenue deck)? Thanks.

Cerulean	07 Apr 2005
Best wishes, Cerulean

Annabelle	08 Apr 2005
This is an enlightening thread for me, as I have been largely unaware of the many publishing nuances of the different editions of the RWS. I have the 1971 U.S. games edition, matte finish, but the box for it is long gone so I can't check to see if it was the Park Avenue, or the 32nd Street, etc. edition. As for the question of which RWS clone is my favorite, without doubt it is the Universal Waite. I love the colors, and the faces are so much better than in the original deck! Now that I've grown accustomed to reading with the Universal Waite, it is difficult to read with the regular RWS...it just looks so flat and dull by comparison. I also have the Hoi Polloi, which I'll admit has been a big disappointment. It looked far better in the pictures I saw online than it does when I'm holding the cards in my hands. My copy of the deck is pristine...the cards were brand new in the plastic when I got them (just a week or so ago) and came with their original box and booklet...but the printing quality is just awful. Some cards are a little blurry, while others aren't...as if some of the pages slipped when the cards were being printed. And the back design is all over the place on different cards...very off center on some, directly in the center on a few, crooked on some, etc. And there are small color splotches on a few cards...and the colors are muddy in places...just all around not a very great printing job. It's a pity about the printing, because I do love the art style.

Sulis	08 Apr 2005
I have 3 Rider-Waite decks: The Original Waite - with the blue lillies and roses backs and the muddy green colours The Pocket Ride-Waite in the yellow box by U S Games The Albano-Waite (just got this one). Out of those three I like the Original one with the green colours the best. It looks old - I like that. I have to admit though that I would prefer it if the colours were more like the pocket RWS from U S Games - I'd get a larger version of this one if it wasn't for the awful plaid backs. I can't stand plaid so it's the last thing I want to see on a tarot deck. I wish U S Games would re-do the Rider-Waite deck with a more attractive back design :). The Albano-Waite uses the original line drawings of Pamela Coleman-Smith. I really like it but the colours seem a bit dark on some of the cards and I just can't get on with red and green pentacles. If the pentacles had been yellow or gold I think this one would be my favorite. I have the Hoi Polloi too which I think is lovely. The printing of my deck is fine, no blurryness, no cards that are off-centre. I think I'd use this deck more if the backs were reversible.

Rusty Neon	27 Apr 2005
Cerulean wrote: the 1968 Frankie Albano Waite that uses colors similar to the Los Angeles-based B.O.T.A. coloring directions...this one is striking to me, because I also found it's Lovers card was used in fan collectible for the 1969 U.S. Production of Hair Attached below is a scan of a 'Hair' Lovers card and a scan of the cover of the program for the 1969 production of 'Hair'. Too cool, man, it's like bein' there. :)

shadowdancer	27 Apr 2005
I am still looking for the Radiant deck, but have appreciated the responses and views shown to date. I have the Universal deck, and do like the imagery, but find there is still too much white in some cards. (yes, I am aware that colour is not the prevailing factor when choosing a deck, but that was first impression). I also have the mini New Vision, which does also give another slant. Not sure it will b classed as a variation of the original theme though. Davina

Grizabella	27 Apr 2005
For some reason, the discussion of wanting to have the original coloring on a RW in the oldest version possible reminds me of the debates about Bibles, some swearing that the King James is THE only one over the newer editions of the Bible. For myself, I don't care for original RW coloring at all. I do like the Universal Waite colored by Hanson-Roberts, though, very much. I think it really only matters what you connect the most with visually as to what's going to work the best for you. I don't think I get nearly as much from my original RW as I do from the Universal Waite for that reason.

HOLMES	27 Apr 2005
i must say that the illimuninated tarot also looks awesome, but the deck for me if it ever gets published is the aquatic tarot, http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/aquatic/ it just calls to me. between the albanio and golden waite, just based on the comparision scanned i would go with the golden waite. i have both the universal waite, the radian rider and the universal waite by lo scaraboe. i liked them all. will some publishers who reads this please publish the aquatic tarot eh??

The Rider Clones: Universal Waite vs. Radiant vs Albano ad infinitum thread was originally posted on 03 Dec 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.