Ancestral Tarot deck--sad Cups?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Stregaverde	21 Jan 2005
I haven't read with it, just studied it, but I really love the Ancestral Path Tarot. For those who aren't familiar with it, the four suits are based on four different world cultures/religions/mythology. Swords are set in feudal Japan, Cups are the legend of Arthur, Staves are ancient Egypt, and Pents are Native American, and are called Sacred Circles. The court cards, except for the Cups suit, denote dieties (for example, Osiris, Isis, Horus, and Nephthys for the Staves). Anyhoo, my question is this--does anyone else find the Cups suit to be tremendously sad? The betrayal of Arthur (King of Cups) by Guinevere (Queen of Cups) and Lancelot (Prince of Cups) is a theme that colors the entire suit, as they are used as main players in almost all the pip cards. I do like that Morgana (Princess of Cups) is portrayed as a healer and helper, and is not stuck with the bum rap that she gets in so many renditions of the Arthur legend. However, she doesn't make it a happier suit. It definitely does a good job representing the emotional aspects of life, but where is the joy? For those of you who use and read with this deck, does this color your readings at all? Do you have another way of looking at this suit? I'd really like to use this for readings, but at this point I can't get past how wounded Arthur is throughout. On a little tangential rant, am I the only one who wants to b--chslap Guinevere? She just looks like such a clueless bimbo, varying from surprised to alarmed in every card she's in. Ugh. The other suits and the Majors are fantastic, however. I'd love to hear how others work with the suit of cups. Thanks!

Kiama	21 Jan 2005
Hi Stregaverde! On a personal note - it's not just in this deck that I want to b*tchslap Guinevere. Generally, I find I have that reaction to her throughout all retellings of the tales, and artwork for it. (Maybe my opinion of her is coloured due to my love of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Mists of Avalon, that consistently portrays her as whiny and selfish...) I must say I have never seen the Cups suit in the Ancestral Path as sad per se... More bittersweet, and that's how I view many of the Cups cards anyway - joy is usually followed by loss or pain, and vice versa. We're in the realm of spirituality, love, and emotions here - and they're always going to complex! And if we think back to the earlier parts of the Arthur tale, there was a time of innocence, wherein Lancelot and Guinevere were not 'cuckolding' their King at all - the three were just friends. Simple as that. So in that sense I can get pure, innocent joy from some of the cards, e.g. the 3 of Cups that shows the three together. On another note, a particularly love the Cups suit of this deck, as I think the really portray the meaning of the cards and the legends being used. I especially like the relationship between Arthur and Morgaine portrayed here - she becomes his guide and counsellor, a bit like Merlin. So, that's my thruppence! Blessings, Kiama

Kissa	21 Jan 2005
Hi Stregaverde, i like this deck and it gave me fantastic readings for family matters and questions about my children. concerning the cups suit, i remember reading in the companion book that Guinevere and Lancelot's relationship was NOT physical but karmic thus the queen didn't cheat on Arthur, who only had a hard time believing it. at the end of the suit though, he forgives his wife and his friend and realizes his mistake, he grows out of being fooled by what things look like and discovers what is (the growing thing is my own interpretation). do you have the companion book? i found it very helpful for the swords suit as i wasn't familiar at all with any of the deities involved. sometimes though i was frustrated but the book not going as deep as i would have liked it to but it sure set lots of light on many aspects of the pictures. hope this helps... have fun with this gorgeous and user friendly deck! kissa

Stregaverde	21 Jan 2005
Good way to look at the Arthurian legend! That, coupled with the bittersweet, is really helping me get past the whole Arthurian Angst thing. Thank you! No, I don't have the book, but I think I'll start searching it out. I'm not familiar with the Japanese deities, either. I truly love this deck, it's downright poetic. How interesting that it speaks well on the subject of children, but then that would make sense. Is it just me, or do the High Priestess and the Empress have identical faces? Is there some meaning in that, or is it coincidence?

WolfSpirit	22 Jan 2005
Stregaverde wrote: Is it just me, or do the High Priestess and the Empress have identical faces? Is there some meaning in that, or is it coincidence? The High Priestess and the Empress are both self-portraits of Julie Cuccia-Watts. The Fool card is Tracey Hoover, the author of the book for the Ancestral Path.

Kissa	22 Jan 2005
Strength (a beautiful middle aged black woman) is also a friend of the creator, Julia Cuccia. This is the kind of anecdotes you get from the book, but you also get lots more. I guess you can buy it very cheap (was it 10$) from Amazon.com but if you go for used, be careful as the book is a softcover and might easily wear. Ask the seller precisely what condition it is in.. The first price (5.60$) from abebooks.com is in UK and shipping to Italy is only 5.26$ Hope this helps.. Kissa

Stregaverde	11 Feb 2005
I've ordered the book used from Abebooks, although it seems to be lost in the abyss that is the Italian Postal System. :( I'm still having big problems with Guinevere, enough that I may end up trading away this deck. A shame, because I love the other parts of it, but any time Cups comes up, I just grimace. Hopefully the book can give me more perspective and a fresh attitude about it.

Grizabella	11 Feb 2005
Maybe you should explore your reasons for reacting so negatively to Guinevere before getting rid of the deck. I have the Ancestral Path and I can't even imagine being able to part with it. Maybe if you could find out what causes you this reaction, you could get past it and in the process, gain more insight into yourself? That way you'd still have the deck and have gained a lot into the bargain.

Stregaverde	11 Feb 2005
Hmmm, like I'm not in touch with my Inner Bimbo? :D That's a possibility. You have a good point, actually. I think I'll just put it away for a while, until I'm in a different place, so to speak. I have a pretty good idea why I have these issues with it right now. It IS too great a deck to just give away, and the only sticking point for me is Guinevere. But WHY did Julia Cuccia-Watts have to make her look like a clueless teenager? Sigh...

WolfSpirit	11 Feb 2005
I agree with you stregaverde, I don't know why guinevere is looking like a cheerleader either. The prince and princess of cups look more mature than the queen of cups ! It's the only flaw I have with this deck...I can live with it but sometimes I think what a really great deck it would be if she had done the cups differently.

Grizabella	11 Feb 2005
I do agree that Guinevere looks vapid and like she's about to have "the vapors", I must add. Like she's just too clueless. I'm not familiar with the Camelot thing so I'm not knowledgable about her character as the legend goes. I just get the impression that this character portrayed on the cards is the Medieval equivalent of the "boy toy". Stregaverde, you made me laugh with the Inner Bimbo comment. I know I surely have one myself. LOL

Stregaverde	11 Feb 2005
The tarot gods evidently heard my lament, because the Ancestral Path book arrived today. :D Haven't had time to look through it, but hopefully it will shed light on why Guinevere seems like such a twit, and Lancelot looks like Fabio. One can hope. And by the way, it was a new copy, still in shrinkwrap! For 10 euros, shipping included! Hooray!!!!!

Stregaverde	13 Feb 2005
I read through the Ancestral Path book, and it was a huge help in understanding the cups suit. For one thing, I was reading the 'story' of each suit in the normal order--Ace to Ten. In the AP, the story actually goes in reverse, with the Court Cards introducing the deities for that era, and the Ten card starting the story that finishes with the Two. Changes the outlook completely. Guinevere still looks like a clueless bimbo, but at least I understand now WHY Cuccia-Watts painted her that way, which goes a long way in making her tolerable. :) And I LOVE the other suits. I'll be keeping this deck.

The Ancestral Tarot deck--sad Cups? thread was originally posted on 21 Jan 2005 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.