dragon deck

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 12 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

seawomyn	12 Jan 2005
I've just been lent a dragon deck and find it quite intriguing. My main decks in the past have been Rider Waite and also, for a while, Motherpeace. I am having trouble with the swords being fire and the wands air. It is making it difficult to read this deck although I find the general idea and images compelling.(I have always loved dragons!) Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Magi	12 Jan 2005
Wich deck is it? And if you think about it this way, fire is used to forge swords, and one needs a good imiganition (air) to under stand how the wand works.

seawomyn	12 Jan 2005
It's the Celtic Dragon tarot. You can see some of the images at: http://www.learntarot.com/cddesc.htm. Thanks for the thoughts. But so far, that energetic reversal does not work for me and I kind of translate that aspect as I read these cards. In other words, for me, her wands are still fire and her swords are still air. But it does expand one to shift a bit on that. For one can really see the firey action of swords and one can feel the movement in air of a wand. Wands also feel quite earthy to me at times, growth, regeneration, etc.

Lillie	12 Jan 2005
Many times I have come acorr this question of the correct attribution of swords/wands, fire/air. Not just in Tarot, but in other occult thingies too, wicca, ceremonial magick, that sort of stuff. It has always bothered me. I find that it puts into my mind that seed of doubt that leaves me unable to concentrate properly upon the matter at hand, that makes me question my self and wonder if I am doing it 'right'. And when I think about it I find that both systems have their merits, it could in fact, be either. However, although they are probably both right, they can't both be right for me, or I can't use either without the doubt and confusion getting to me. So, I stuck with one. As I use, and have always used the Thoth, for me swords are air and wands are fire. All other magickal activities have to conform to that system. Then I can be sure in my own mind that I know what I am doing. For that reason I could never use cards thathad the other correspondances. This is not to say that it is wrong, or that people that use it are wrong. I believe that whatever works for a person is right for them. It's just that it's not right for me, because I need to be sure I know and understand what I am doing. Mostly now I try not to think about itat all, because if I do I wonder... :)

Emily	12 Jan 2005
I also find it easier to use a deck that has Swords/Air and Wands/Fire. But I'm not sure why. It seems natural for Swords to be Air - and then the rest just follow - Wands/Fire, Cups/Water, Pentacles/Earth. Its no mistake that all of my favourite decks follow this method because I tend to stay away from decks that don't - but then again if I do like a deck that has changed the attributes then I just use it as I would my others Swords/Air etc. :)

Shade	13 Jan 2005
The dragon tarot is wands/air, swords/fire because those are teh correspondences for DJ Conway's magickal prctice. The main witchcraft tradition that teaches it this was is the Alexandrian tradition, though the Feri trad has these correspndences aas well. It has been a stumbling block for me with this deck as well as the Witches Tarot.

RedMaple	13 Jan 2005
Shade, could you explain the reasons for those correspondences in those magic traditions? I have trouble with the changes as well, it just doesn't feel right. But maybe it would help if I knew why these correspondences seemed right to them. I'm bummed. I really like the images on the Celtic Dragon, and it was on my wishlist. But if this is yet another deck with the correspondences changed, I don't know. Does it work for people if you ignore the switch of elements? Or do you always feel slightly off-center, as I do when I use the Nigel Jackson?

Shade	13 Jan 2005
From what I understand the correspondences are handled that way because: The wand is seen as a tool of the will and of manifestation, these groups associate that with the powers of the mind and thus intellectual air gets the wand. When prominent (at that time) Alexandrian Gavin Bone explained it he associated the wand with the mind of the wizard Merlin. The sword is seen as fire because it is a weapon and a tool of force and power which makes it, for people who go this route, closer to the dangerous someties violent nature of fire. For more info I'd suggest the writings of Stewart and Janet Farrar.

Myrrha	14 Jan 2005
RedMaple wrote: Does it work for people if you ignore the switch of elements? Or do you always feel slightly off-center, as I do when I use the Nigel Jackson? An odd thing about the Nigel Jackson is that although you can see clearly that the elements are switched on the courts and aces, the numbered suite cards stay pretty much the same as in RWS! That was what I found most confusing about the deck. The Nine of Swords still shows a nightmare, fears in the mind which seems better for Swords as air. The Six of Wands still shows a man victorious and the Six of Swords shows a man in a boat. There are some small differences: the Two of Swords now seems to illustrate suspended conflict rather than indescision, the man running fast on the Eight of Staves holds a scroll to suggest communication. So one thing to look for might be how thoroughly the elements are switched in the Celtic Dragon. Have they really switched them or just said they did? -Myrrha

RedMaple	14 Jan 2005
Thanks, Shade. That helps. Myrrha, I agree about the Jackson. It's as if they've only partially changed the correspondences, which is what makes it so confusing. Although if what Shade says is correct, that's why it is difficult. I think of the sword as the sharp intellect. Fire as internal spirit, passion. It's just very difficult for me to change those associations. I agree that the nightmare card makes little sense as a fire card -- although it is an incubus -- a night terror having to do with draining your sexual energy that seems to be depicted in the Jackson. I'd like to be able to just go with the pictures, but it seems what I think I know is overlaid on the images, and changes my feelings about them. It's like a cognitive, or cultural dissonance. LOL

The dragon deck thread was originally posted on 12 Jan 2005 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.