Gay Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 01 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

L'Etoile	01 Jan 2005
I just got it. I don't want to read for myself with it (not being a gay man) and I have yet to corner any gey friends to try it out with (namely the one who coerced me to buy it). Anyone have it and have any useful tips? I've looked through it and it looks like it's going to be non-traditional in some of its meanings (Justice for one) and if anyone knows theirs pretty well and has any pointers for me I'd welcome the advice. Thanks ;) Linden

horoskope88	01 Jan 2005
Well there's the Gay Tarot study group you could always refer to. Of course, it has been rather quiet lately.. It's nice to see non-gays using this deck. :) Good luck!

Kiama	02 Jan 2005
I'm a heterosexual woman, yet I find the Gay Tarot to be very easy and deep to read with. Perhaps it's because it is set in a modern context, so despite your gender or sexual orientation it holds plenty of meaning. Some tips I'd add: compare all the 3's and the Empress together, all the 4's and Emperor's, etc etc. There's some neat stuff going on here in this deck, that is subtle and doesn't hit you until you really look closely. All the gay men I have shown this to have really liked the deck. They thought it was a much-needed deck that helped to convey the specific issues gay men have to deal with (check out the Tower card for this) whilst not putting them in a little box and stereotyping them. In my opinion, it is one of the Top 5 decks to come out of 2004. Kiama

Asher	03 Jan 2005
This gay man does _not_ like this deck! To be fair, it has a few brilliant cards: * The Priest (Hierophant) -- very timely, depicting a clergyman presiding over a gay marriage * Justice -- 2 men in jail reach out to each other through the bars of facing cells * Death -- a literal image, a gay man at his lover's (?) grave * Self-Hatred (Devil) -- a young man gazes at a picture of a "traditional"/nuclear family in an art gallery * Revelation (Tower) -- a young man comes out to his parents * Beyond Judgement (Judgement) -- a diverse crowd marches in a Gay Pride parade, carrying banners "Vive la Difference" and "Beyond Judgement" But, the rest of it is just...blah. If the entire deck had the insight of the above cards, it would be incredible. But it doesn't, at least not for me. I find it just too (pardon the pun) homogenized. And no stereotypes? All of the 4s depict men involved in...theatre. Luckily that's the only one. (There are no hair dressers, fashion designers, drag queens, etc.) And what in the world are those winged things on the Queen cards??? Were I ever to read with this deck, these would have to go! As realistic as this deck wants to depict gay men's lives, these creatures do not inhabit any circles I move in (thank goodness). For me, there is very little "gay" in this deck. And I had such hopes... As always, YMMV. Asher

MeeWah	05 Jan 2005
I like Gay Tarot as a new approach, as a first representative of the male-oriented deck, gay notwithstanding. I also like it for its different images, the relative thinking out-of-the-box. As I am heterosexual, my view may be moot but the deck lends itself well to readings regardless of gender or query. That is, approaching it as a deck rather than with any pre-conceived notions as to how it should speak seems to work best.

tarotbear	08 Jan 2005
It is always amazing to read a sentence where someone says 'Something (fill in the blank) isn't (fill in the blank) enough!!! Being a deck collector, I anticipated the arrival of The Gay Tarot from Tarot Garden, and quite truthfully upon it's opening I am very impressed and very supportive of the effort to create this deck. It is true I disagree with some of the choices - but - I'm not the creator - and I accept the vision presented in the deck. Since Mr. Bursten wisely chose to stay away from as many gay stereotypes (including those created and fostered by non-gay people) as possible, I for one am very thankful that the men depicted in this deck are not all buff, suntanned, slimmed twinkie gym-bunnies that everyone stereotypes gay men to be. (The 'bear' in my screen name should answer the question echoing in your heads, for those who understand gay lingo). Also, there is not a single penis depicted in this deck - a true delight! With the many erotic passing-for-gay decks out there that find it absolutely necessary to depict massive phalluses on every male, it is refreshing not to have one slapping you in the face on every card. Besides, what makes a big weenie make a deck 'gay'? Also, stereotype-wise, there are none of the usual Leathermen S&M figures that appear in some decks - thank you, Lee! Lee has actually worked against stereotype in many of the cards, i.e., the Protector that replaces the Empress. In the twenty-first century, I still run across many people who don't believe that gay men can have children, or that having a child is a certificate of heterosexuality. I applaud his sidestepping using females in the cards in his vision of gay 'male' unity. I still look at the winged replacements for the queens (What? a Gay Male deck without QUEENS? LOL!) with a bit of skepticism, but using them as a guide to connect to the higher self is usuable. I also am glad he chose to depict aging gay men in this deck. As I my self age, it's nice to see a hot daddy or two among the inhabitants of this deck! Lee, you need to be commended for the sheer effort of this deck. Having myself written a manuscript for tarot card interpretation for men that also works against stereotyping along similar lines .. perhaps we should team up sometime?

Alta	08 Jan 2005
hi tarotbear, long time! Glad to hear your voice again.

Lee	08 Jan 2005
Hi tarotbear, I really appreciate your words. I was indeed quite concerned to avoid stereotypes. As you pointed out, I do feel there is a distinction to be drawn between "gay men" and "sex." And I've always felt that decks, gay or straight, which attempt to use sexually arousing images and present it as tarot are a bit silly. If we want sexual images, well, we all know where to find them, we certainly don't need to shell out 20 bucks for that! So, no face-slapping in my deck. :) And having ethnic, age, and body-type diversity was a top priority for me. Gay people, after all, come in all sizes, shapes, colors and ages. Of course everyone knows that, but I think sometimes we need to be reminded. Asher, I appreciate your input as well. Since there's no one "gay culture," something like a gay tarot deck is necessarily going to be very personal, which means it will appeal to some, but for many, it won't, and that's perfectly understandable. My goal was more to get people thinking and talking about what a gay deck might look like, rather than to present something as "the" definitive gay tarot. For example, I'm looking forward to seeing the Brotherhood Tarot (http://www.oakgroveoracle.com/), which looks like it offers a very exciting concept, and one quite different from mine. -- Lee

Jamwalls	09 Jan 2005
I have to say as well, as a gay man I'm not fond of this deck either. I do however find it very easy to read, the meanings do come across very well, but I find the pictures a little cartoony and personally I did see it as containing quite a few stereotypes, however I think I may have been reading too much into it as well ha ha ha. One thing though (and now I know that the man himself is here I have to ask) what is with the 9 of wands? It shows a man walking past an Irish Pub and the explanation is "Don't mess with me"?????? Are you saying all Irish men have intimicay issues? They are all drinkers? or is it that all gay men like Irish pubs lol? This one card really does bug me and I would love to know your views on it James

Lee	10 Jan 2005
Hi james, in my original instructions to the artist, I specified that it show a large, muscular man with an intimidating expression in front of a bar. My idea was that this was someone who had built himself up in order to hide his own insecurities. Antonella, the artist, chose to make the bar an Irish pub. Because of language and location barriers, there was not much of an opportunity for she and I to actually discuss the creation of the cards. So, while overall I'm delighted with how things came out, there are a few things here and there where I'm not sure what her thought process was. This kind of thing is unavoidable in a situation like this where the two collaborators live in different continents and speak different languages. Frankly, I'm happy the whole deck came out as well as it did. I hesitate to speak for Antonella but I feel fairly certain that she did not mean to suggest anything derogatory about Irish people. She probably set the scene in front of an Irish pub simply to provide more specificity to the scene, giving it more details to make it more interesting than my original description of a generic "bar." -- Lee

Kiama	10 Jan 2005
Jamwalls wrote: I have to say as well, as a gay man I'm not fond of this deck either. I do however find it very easy to read, the meanings do come across very well, but I find the pictures a little cartoony and personally I did see it as containing quite a few stereotypes, however I think I may have been reading too much into it as well ha ha ha. I've been thinking about this, and I think maybe the Tarot as it is is always going to contain some stereotypes... except that in the Tarot world we call them archetypes...? }) Tarotbear - nice to see you around again. :* Kiama

closrapexa	10 Jan 2005
Personally I love it, from what I've seen so far. without a doubt this is the next deck that I'm going to get. And as for the sterotypes? Well, so far i haven't found or looked for them. Although there are a few cards that I see will have some getting used to (After looking at Justice quite a lot, i still don't "get it") but then, with any tarot deck you must invest the time to get to know the deck.

Shade	10 Jan 2005
My original assumption was that the Bar was made into an Irish bar so that we wouldn't assume he was leaving a gay bar (although there are Irish gay bars). If it hadn't had the Irish sign I would have assumed he card was about feeling disconnected with the gay scene and would have been very unhappy as animosity towards the scene often seems pretentious to me. I've noticed a lot of people are initially thrown by the guides. I was as well, but here's my current approach (it probably isn't what Lee had in mind though). The guides remind me of the way that many cultures have viewed queer folks as having shamanic powers and living between the planes as it were. The American Indian two-spirit men and the Greek Tiresius spring to mind but there are many others. The guides - to me - represent a return to this missing queer spirituality, our deep connection with both the land (the wild landscapes on the cards) and the divine (angelic and fey wings). One of the goals for the deck was to be a tool of enlightenment for gay guys I think one way that it accomplishes that is reconnecting us with a time in which being queer meant you could tap into inner and outer realms not available to our much beloved het friends.

tarotbear	11 Jan 2005
The Nine of Wands deals with putting up or keeping up defenses - usually a man in front of a wall of wands that suggest a fort or prision bars, etc., depending on the deck. In the movie Priscilla a reference is made along the lines of ' Do those walls keep them out, or keep us in?' IMHO - the first viewing of the cards made me wonder about the gay barriers that gay men put up, and unfortunately, gay bars still figure predominately in gay life despite the fact that many of us can't stand them! In this world of instant online crusing - send someone an X-Rated pic of yourself and get an instant response, one wonders why men still hang out until all hours in bars trying to cruise someone in hopes of getting sex. There is a lot of self-hatred and self-loathing in the gay men's world, so the question becomes are you keeping them out or keeping yourself in.

Shade	12 Jan 2005
That's a fairly mournful take on gay bars, for many they are a place of solace and camaraderie. I thought that the 9 of cups could have taken place in one rather than in outer space.

tarotbear	13 Jan 2005
I am glad that in America that smoking has been banned from bars; now most gays bars are just dark, noisy things instead of dark, noisy, smoky things. I was never into the 'gay bar' scene. Most gay bars I am taken to are dreadul places with deafening techno music and are usually 'dance bars' aimed at the younger stereotyped gay set. I would love to go and sit in an Irish pub and just sit and talk and enjoy the company around me. In fact, I am going to Ireland and Scotland in the spring of 2005 and look forward to the pubs - gay or not. You could also interpret this card as a 'straight' man who denies his gay instincts but wants to walk through that door into the gay bar and is afraid to do it and afraid to not do it. He could be afraid to admit that he is gay, or he could be gay wanting to walk into a straight bar and pretend that he isn't gay. Once again, a card about defenses and putting ourself on the defense. It may have been better if the sign merely said 'Bar' and left it's contents more open for interpretation.

tarotbear	03 Mar 2005
Kiama wrote: I've been thinking about this, and I think maybe the Tarot as it is is always going to contain some stereotypes... except that in the Tarot world we call them archetypes...? Kiama LOL! Kiama! there is a BIG difference between archetypes - the original from which everything else is merely a copy and a stereotype - usually a negative association of an image, true or otherwise, being fostered as a 'typical' image.

Kiama	03 Mar 2005
tarotbear wrote: LOL! Kiama! there is a BIG difference between archetypes - the original from which everything else is merely a copy and a stereotype - usually a negative association of an image, true or otherwise, being fostered as a 'typical' image. That is true, but to a certain extent a stereotype can also be a positive force, allowing people to 'fit into' a certain group by acting like, looking like, or believing like the rest of the people in that group. So, by playing up to a stereotype, you try to mould yourself in with said group and feel 'closer' to those others who have done the same. Maybe this is another thread entirely, because it is a very interesting issue... I can think of quite a few stereotypes that I associate with the cards, and wonder if the archetypes have lead to some stereotypes, or how much difference there really is between the two? You're sounding quite Platonic up there with the idea that the archetype is the original from which everything else is merely a copy, and there's a few things wrong with Plato's theory of Forms. }) For instance, do they hold true even throughout the changing times? (I do believe we've discussed this before, many years ago y'know... I vaguely remember a heated debate about High Priestess businesswomen...) Blessings, Kiama

The Gay Tarot thread was originally posted on 01 Jan 2005 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.