Top Ten 2004: your opinions?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kissa	23 Jan 2005
Today, 3rd of june 2005, i wish to add new reflections to this thread i started 4 months ago. I will do so on Page 14, the last page of the thread, for now... I do not wish to erase or edit this first message, i would like ppl to be able to re-read what i wrote back then and what different participators responded to. I was sincere back then and i still am today even if my views evolved. i don't think being popular means being good or better even least BEST. some of the decks in the top favourite 2004 are non-sense decks to me. let me see...: Quote: "The Top Ten most popular Tarot decks, as voted by Aeclectic Tarot visitors in November - December 2004. 1) Gilded Tarot 2) Golden Tarot 3) Robin Wood 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot 5) DruidCraft Tarot 6) Rider-Waite Tarot // Fey Tarot 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot 8) Tarot of Prague 9) Sacred Circle Tarot 10) World Spirit Tarot // Sakki-Sakki Tarot " THESE ARE MY OPINIONS. I INTENTIONNALLY MADE CONCISE AND BRUTAL COMMENTS though my views are a bit more complicated than expressed here. Please note that I AM NOT TRYING TO HURT ANYBODY'S FEELING (creator's, aficionado's, fan number one's included) 1) Gilded? RWS clone. Not impressed, don't like the busy style, doesn't have much class IMO. Doesn't bring anything new at all. Gave it a chance even if i wasn't convinced by the scans online, wasn't impressed either as i held it in my hands. Didn't make me want to read with it. 2) Golden? RWS clone but artistically so interesting! Much effort is put into the packaging and the LWB. Very good deck. User-friendly without being cute. 3) Robin Wood? Without this RWS not so close clone, I wouldn't be into Tarot at all. It was the one that saved me from "basic" RWS. Now the artwork? I have grown out of it. 4) Thoth? Crowley was the most dangerous of all the Golden Dawn weirdos. His and Harris's deck is nothing than putting his various fantaisies on paper. An angel from Hell told me... 5) Druidcraft? Gorgeous, seems quite seriously researched but leaves me cold readingwise, despite a few attempts. 6) Rider Waite? We've been thru this before, haven't we? 6) Fey? Ouch... 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats Gorgeous, unique, a class of its own. But not one I have ever attenpted to read with. Don't know why though... 8) Tarot of Prague Gorgeous, unique, a class of its own. One of the best not so close RWS clones. The subject is unique, the artwork is great and yes, this one brings something new to the world of Tarot. It also reads like what I have heard from Prague itself: with passion and drama, humour (sometimes non-sense humour but that must be the british touch ;) ) and unexpected twists, mystery and magic... 9) Sacred Circle? No opinion 10) World Spirit? Nice deck, politically correct, all kind of ppl, all shapes and sizes. Artwork original (linoleum cuts). Happy to see this one in the list. Haven't gotten fantastic unforgettable reading with it though. 10) Sakki-Sakki? Who would have guessed that the best of 2004 would come from Israel? ;) Impressive both by the new take on many cards and also by the absolutely delightful personality and philosophy of its creator. I stopped reading with it though, right after it predicted that Finland would lose the Ice Hockey WC and got it right... (just kidding) this is my opinion. i am really eager to read many others! kissa edited to add that i edited my post to add the thick red letters. i don't have anything else to add :D

Khatruman	23 Jan 2005
My only comment right now is to mourn the loss of the Osho Zen from the list...Alas :(

Jewel-ry	23 Jan 2005
I feel slightly gutted that there isn't a Marseilles deck in there this year :( I thought it may have made an entrance in the charts. As for the others, the Tarot of Prague is one that I am really glad to see in the list although I personally felt it should have been a lot higher. Its one of the few (loosely based) RW type decks that I use. I was happy to see the Sakki-Sakki in there as well, which I find to be a really fun deck with a quirky sense of humour. The other one which I was secretly pleased about was the Sacred Circle, which I have pulled out a few times recently too and am beginning to see a lot more in it. The Golden is lovely for its artwork but I cant read with it, and I hate the RW, Robin Wood and Thoth. The World Spirit bothered me and the others I cant really comment on, except to say, I have no desire to own them. Interesting thread Kissa! :)

Emily	23 Jan 2005
I was pleased to see the DruidCraft, the Golden and the Tarot of Prague on but I'm surprised the Robin Wood and the Sacred Circle made it on again, didn't know there were still that popular. Its a shame the Morgan Greer didn't make it on this year but there's always next year. :)

Mimers	23 Jan 2005
Very interesting questions Kissa, and I appreciate your honest opinions. 1. Gilded Tarot- I love the colors and the style, but don't read with it. I find it lacking in symbolism. I am happy to have it in my collection, but would not read with it. Surprised to see it as number one. 2. Golden Tarot - This I was glad to see up there. This is a gorgeous deck that is wonderful to read with. I treasure this one and feel it truely deserves a spot. 3. Robin Wood- This deck got my vote. I just recently came to own one this past year and it is amazingly easy to read with. When I do parties or go to the coffee shop this deck comes with me. The symbolism is fantastic and I can relate to the images very easily. With this deck my readings flow beautifuly. 4. Thoth - I don't know the whole story about the evil Mr Crowley, but I can say that I love this deck. I could spend hours studying it. The artwork is outstanding. Like the man or not, I believe it deserves a place. 5. DruidCraft - Have never seen this one. 6. Rider Waite - Feel the same way as I do with the Robin Wood. THe reason I like the Robin Wood better is because of the lack of Christian symbolism. I feel Robin Wood is less of a guessing game than this deck. 6. Fey - The Fey deck is phenominal. I think the meanings of the cards are in those pictures so well. This deck is original, not a clone. The expressions on the faces are outstanding. I think this deck should be here without a doubt. Excellent reading deck and gorgeous artwork. 7. BBC - I think this beautiful deck deserves a spot, but it is not a reading deck for me. It is unique and amazingly gorgeous. 8. Tarot of Prague - This deck is right up there with the RW for me. It is unique and much prettier than RobinWood. It also comes to me to public readings and I go with this one more than the RW when I read for others. I also get many ooos and aaahs from my clients with this deck. It reads for me like poetry. I LOVE this deck. It was not easy deciding wether or not to vote for Robin Wood or this one. Sacred Circle - I owned this for a short time and it just did not click with me. Traded it. 10. World Spirit - While I appreciate the unique artwork, to me it is just another RW clone. Some of the cards did not sit well with me. This one sits on my shelf. Definitely would not consider it a top ten. Sakki Sakki - I love this deck. It always puts a smile on my face! Very unique and very well put together. I love reading with it. Readings are fun with this deck and it is very nice to pull out once in a while. I don't see myself getting tired of this deck. I am surprised it didn't end up higher on the list. I definitely see this as more interesting than the Gilded. Where is the Osho Zen!?!?!?! Mimi's Top 10: (If anyone even cares) 1. Robin Wood 2. Tarot of Prague 3. Ancestral Path 4. Merryday 5. Fey 6. Osho Zen 7. Sakki Sakki 8. Golden Tarot 9. Thoth 10. Marseille

Fulgour	23 Jan 2005
Kissa wrote: 6) Rider Waite? We've been thru this before, haven't we? 6) Fey? Ouch... Six is the number of Community and Nurturing, signifies Sympathy and betokens Responsibility. The Fey Tarot and the Colman Smith: "Yay! 6"

Kiama	23 Jan 2005
I was a little disappointed not to see the Gay Tarot up there. IMO it was the best deck to come out of 2004 - a deck who's time had come; a deck that made a statement; a deck that was a great reading deck. Glad to see the old favourites are in there: Robin Wood and Thoth. Timeless classics as far as I'm concerned. Wish the Sacred Circle would go away though. It's lovely until you get to the Minors, and then they're just .... yeaurgh. Other than that, no opinions. Blessings, Kiama

cirom	23 Jan 2005
Kissa wrote: 1) Gilded? RWS clone. Not impressed, don't like the busy style, doesn't have much class IMO. Doesn't bring anything new at all. Kissa, in one quick sweep you have managed to pretty much trash over a year of my work. Normally my previous posts regarding the Gilded have been in response to questions or to inform about details, availablity etc. I did'nt want my presence here as a member to in any way put people off saying what they thought even if it was critical. (Something I obviously achieved in your case) As an artist I have to accept the good and the bad in terms of reaction to my work, and I think for the most part I'm mature enough to do that. But I'm also a human being, I love receiving compliments and I'm hurt when I receive critisism..... Indeed I have received a number of e-mails questioning or disagreeing with my choice of color here, symbol there. I respond to each and every one, explaining my racional, but dealing with it in the knowledge that this emotive genre of the Tarot will always elicit different preferences and opinions. But some comments are particluarly harsh and I do feel entitled to defend myself. I expected for sure that many people who prefer plainer or simpler designed deck would find mine less "readable" you are one of them. I would describe my illustrative style as "very detailed", you choose to describe it as "busy". thats also acceptable, people are entitled to their opinion etc etc etc. However I do not consider the Gilded to be a RWS clone. Radiant Rider Waite is a clone. Golden Rider is a clone. Illuminated is a clone etc etc The Gilded a clone ?? I really don't think so. "Based" on the RWS? .....absolutely. Familiarity with the RWS was a stated intention from the word go. "Doesn't offer anything new at all" Surely there are at least some cards that do ??? "Doesn't have any class" Wow!!!! don't hold back Kissa. If you think this about the Gilded, I dread to think how you will react to my Tarot of Dreams. Thats even more detailed (er sorry...busy) I would also suggest the following perspective to be considered. Decks such as the Tarot of Prague, and the Golden which do seem to appeal to you, are indeed beautifull, technically well put together and creative in their own right. I own them, I love them and I have praised them on several occasions. But bear in mind that their core elements are pre existing works of art, wether that be paintings, buildings statues etc, whereas the images on my decks are mine and as such don't have the emotive stamp of approval as it were that comes from being accepted art from the past. In other words my images are judged, for good or bad in their own right. I do agree you on one point, that this vote does'nt suggest that a deck is better or superior to any other, merely favorite, for this period of time. Nevertheless, having been voted the number one deck in that context is proving to be somewhat bitter sweet. With some members already questioning the validity or usefullness of the outcome, due to the possability of duplicate voting. I will have to therefore consol by bruised ego in the knowledge that almost 10,000 people in less than five months seem to disagree with you, and have made the Gilded one of, if not the fastest selling deck to date. Mind you as with the voting, some people may have cheated with those statistics as well...they may have bought more than one deck.

WolfSpirit	23 Jan 2005
DruidCraft: my own favourite, and it is a pleasant surprise to see it at no. 5. Tarot of Prague and Sacred Circle: decks I also love, both to use and for the artwork. Golden Tarot, Baroque Bohemian Cats: I own these decks, love some of the cards, but don't use these decks for readings. Thoth: a deck that still intrigues me and that I will study more...some day. Robin Wood, RWS: decks I have but no longer use...there are other decks I like more. The other decks I don't know well enough to comment on.

Alta	23 Jan 2005
Quote: "The Top Ten most popular Tarot decks, as voted by Aeclectic Tarot visitors in November - December 2004. 1) Gilded Tarot 2) Golden Tarot 3) Robin Wood 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot 5) DruidCraft Tarot 6) Rider-Waite Tarot // Fey Tarot 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot 8) Tarot of Prague 9) Sacred Circle Tarot 10) World Spirit Tarot // Sakki-Sakki Tarot " No precisely as I might have voted, and I am not familiar with the Sacred Circle, but most of those decks would be in my top 10. I would add the International Icon to the list. I use: Gilded, DruidCraft, BBCats and Prague. I also own and enjoy, and occasionally read with: Golden, Thoth, Fey, World Spirit and Sakki Sakki. Like Mimers, Robin Wood broght me back after to tarot, though I confess I rarely use the deck now. RWS I keep for reference. cirom: I hear you, but try and step back from it a bit. Clearly your deck is admired and respected. Tarot of Prague has taken some blasts on these Forums as has BBCats and many others. Take heart, at least people have strong opinions about it and don't ignore it. :)

RedMaple	23 Jan 2005
Cirom -- You are brave to read the criticisms- I know how devastating even an inane criticism can be. My second book was criticized because of one of the blurbs -- not even my words! And as a textile artist, I've been criticized for using colors that are "too intense - you wouldn't really put that on a bed, would you?" Well, maybe. :) Your deck is beautiful and clearly a lot of people are connecting with it. Take a deep breath. You have a well of artistic ability to keep drawing on -- woops, no pun intended. Let the negative stuff just roll off your back. Some people have a hard time distinguishing between taste and objective reality. My mother, for example, considered blue "the best" color and distrusted anyone who didn't agree. For her, that was objective reality. :) Yes, I survived, with my different favorite color of the day.... I am awaiting your deck in the mail, and the intense colors are one of the reasons I want it, the other is your interesting and unique images on some of the cards. Definitely not a clone, (which in my opinion is an unfortunate word for the RWS-inspired decks anyway, although I understand when it is essentially the same picture, recolored.) One of the things I look for in a deck is whether the images expand the meaning of the card for me in any way, whether they are resonant - your vibrant colors and unique images seem to have that quality. As for the other decks of 2004: The Golden is extraordinarily beautiful, and just gets better the more I use it. The richness of colors, the intensity of emotion, (the two and three of hearts nearly broke mine,) the seamlessness of the artwork, in most cases (I do have a problem with the Hanged Man's foot....) is amazing. The Prague - I've just received the Prague, so I am in a learning state, not yet bonded, but getting there. The mix of styles initially put me off from buying this deck, but after seeing a copy live, I took the plunge, and I'm glad I did. baba's explanation of why she chose to do the deck this way makes sense, and I'm really enjoying the trip through Prague along with these wonderful images. Robin Wood -- I understand this deck being in the top 10. I think it is a terrific deck for beginners, for those who don't like the artwork of RWS, or want a more Pagan deck. It has always been an accurate reading deck for me, but I'm not personally crazy about the artwork, so I seldom use it anymore. Thoth -- this is a love it or hate it deck, I guess. I'm not into Crowley, so you know what camp I'm in. Druidcraft - don't own it. RWS - Like the Robin Wood, this is such a good deck for beginners to learn on, and the inspiriation for so many other decks. I keep it for reference, or if things get muddy, I take it out. It still speaks clearly. Fey -- I'm waiting for this in the mail, another one I had to have after having seen and held real ones in my hands. I think they are incredible, though I had to get by the anime-type images at first. This deck really does expand on the meanings of the cards. I think it's extraodinary. BBCats - I don't own this one. I am so torn about it. There's something about dressing cats up that is very uncomfortable to me. Maybe because i had a cat who just hated it when I was a child, so I expect most cats find it demeaning. Oh, well. :) Sacred Circles -- I don't own it. The images on line just don't grab me -- the photo-realism isn't something I usually connect with. World Spirit -- another deck that I would say, though RWS-inspired, is not a clone. The woman dancing on the roof is enough reason for me to love this deck, plus all the people of different ages, sizes, the wonderful blue-skinned woman on the world card, so abundant. Yes, there's a lot to like here. (But there are those couple of unfortunate cards - the Sun, and the card that looks like Laura Bush. (Unfortunate resemblances to Republicans seems to be something a lot of us are projecting onto cards right now, probably because of our unhappiness with the political situation. Maybe this will go away if we ever get out of our current political mess.) Sakki-Sakki - I don't own it. Probably won't. I think it's interesting, but I can't see ever reading with it. But I could be wrong. :) I personally love the Buddha Tarot, and think it's extraordinary and unusual. It has the most beautiful backs I've seen, also. But I know this is a deck, like the Gay Tarot, that will appeal to a minority. I wish more people would check it out. The Morgan Greer also is a great favorite of mine, and I think it is a good alternative deck for beginners who don't like the art or colors of the RWS or Robin Wood, but still want to learn on an RWS deck. It is a wonderful reading deck with great depth.

Rusty Neon	23 Jan 2005
cirom wrote: Kissa, in one quick sweep you have managed to pretty much trash over a year of my work. Normally my previous posts regarding the Gilded have been in response to questions or to inform about details, availablity etc. I did'nt want my presence here as a member to in any way put people off saying what they thought even if it was critical. (Something I obviously achieved in your case) As an artist I have to accept the good and the bad in terms of reaction to my work, and I think for the most part I'm mature enough to do that. But I'm also a human being, I love receiving compliments and I'm hurt when I receive critisism..... cirom, I'm not familiar with your deck and therefore have no views on it. However, I don't see why people here on Aeclectic can't express their opinions freely about any published tarot deck or published book. People comment on published decks daily here - sometimes favourably, sometimes unfavourably; everyone has their respective views. We shouldn't be constrained just because the deck creator is a member. Membership here doesn't give immunity to published deck creators. Imagine if every deck creator, or relatives of deceased creators, joined these boards; we could never criticize any published deck, except favourably.

Melpomone18	23 Jan 2005
cirom wrote: I will have to therefore consol by bruised ego in the knowledge that almost 10,000 people in less than five months seem to disagree with you, and have made the Gilded one of, if not the fastest selling deck to date. Cirom: I am very proud to be one of those 10,000! :) Like many others, I love the Gilded. It obviously resembles the RWS but the lovely, rich gem tones that have been used and the fresh take on the card themes breathe so much vibrance and energy into the old standard. I also like the added mysteriousness that the celestial imagery brings. Quite an imaginative deck, I discover something new every time I pull it out! Now, on to the others... 2) Golden Tarot - Well, this one is one of my favorites, I can't say enough about it. As collage decks go I think this is one of the best that I've ever seen. Kat Black made excellent choices with the artistic sources that she used. 3) Robin Wood - In general, this deck doesn't really speak to me. But the colors are fabulous and the imagery is lovely. And even though it doesn't really appeal to me as a reading deck, I recommend it to friends all of the time. So, even though I don't connect with it, I can still see why it is a classic. 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot - I've never cared much for this one, but my opinion doesn't have anything to do with who Crowley was or what he did, it's purely based on the art. I find the darkness and severity of it a bit of a turn off. Nevertheless I know that it's a very influential deck, and I'm not at all surprised to see it on the list. 5) DruidCraft Tarot - Haven't seen enough of this one to have an opinion on it. 6) Rider-Waite Tarot - I know, lots of people think "boring old Rider-Waite" but really, I've never seen anything boring about this deck. Perhaps the fact that it's one of the most readily available decks, (indeed it seems to pop up everywhere) has caused some people to become jaded towards it. But I still think this is quite an appealing deck. It's certainly very easy to read and it's certainly initiated many people into the world of self-discovery through Tarot, and that counts for something, doesn't it? 6) Fey Tarot - Of course, since this is one of my all time favorites I could gush about its expressive, lush artwork and excellent treatment of Tarot themes for hours, but no one would want to read that (and I'm sure the moderators would get upset with me for creating such a long post) so I'll just sum up my feelings with this: "Yay!" 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot - A wonderful deck! There have been so many decks based on cats, but this one is really a class act. This deck seems to transport you to another world. 8) Tarot of Prague - I don't own this one, but I'm deeply impressed with what I've seen. 9) Sacred Circle Tarot - No opinion on this one. 10) World Spirit Tarot - Another beautiful deck. It's been hard for me to work with, but that's just my personal experience. It's very nice to see a multi-culti deck on the list. 10) Sakki-Sakki Tarot - From what I've seen of this one it takes traditional Tarot in a bold direction. Not quite my cup of tea, but I cannot dispute its artistic merit. Like others, I'm also surprised that the Gay Tarot didn't make it this year, it's so gorgeous, and it seems to have struck a chord with so many people. And this year I was personally blown away by the sheer beauty of Lo Scarabeo's Golden Tarot of the Reinassance, I can't say I exactly expected to see it here, but it would have been nice. Then again, I'm a sucker for the lavish, sparkly decks.

Cerulean	23 Jan 2005
"The Top Ten most popular Tarot decks, as voted by Aeclectic Tarot visitors in November - December 2004. 1) Gilded Tarot---Beautiful fantasy, modern--I've heard that it's been sold out in some places during Xmas. I don't read with it, even though I've tried---I think the journal workbook and deck kit would be great for a relaxing weekend or if I could do a meditative workshop related to creative writing. This is my opinion only--I was thinking I have affinity with the next deck, with scenes from nature, even though I'm still puzzled by a few of those images 2) Golden Tarot--I have more resonance with older styles of art, so this reads well for me. The friends of mine who have bought this seem to be also into art history. 3) Robin Wood --I've heard and seen this as a popular deck among New Age/Pagan audiences. Just not my taste. 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot - one of my favorites after reading Lon Duquette and other books. 5) DruidCraft Tarot - Lovely and I like it for special occasions. 6) Rider-Waite Tarot // Fey Tarot - both are lovely to have to fall back on for me when I want to do a fast, more intuitive reading. 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot - fun. 8) Tarot of Prague - Lovely. I was thinking of getting the second edition. 9) Sacred Circle Tarot - I know this is a favorite of a few people, they really mesh with this deck. I didn't, but it opened my eyes to many beautiful photographic decks. 10) World Spirit Tarot // Sakki-Sakki Tarot -- I find World Spirit has a very good design, is used often in Llewellyn Special Tarot Topics series, but it never worked for me as the Light and Shadow does...Sakki-Sakki seems to be a fun deck, but somehow I've not done well with the few brightly colored and abstraction decks that I have...perhaps because I tend to read with older decks with fewer images. Regards, Cerulean

cirom	23 Jan 2005
Rusty Neon wrote: cirom, I don't see why people here on Aeclectic can't express their opinions freely about any published tarot deck or published book. People comment on published decks daily here - sometimes favourably, sometimes unfavourably; everyone has their respective views. We shouldn't be constrained just because the deck creator is a member. Rusty Neon. It seems you did'nt read my post fully. I don't think I ever questioned peoples right to comment on my deck or any other. Indeed I pointed out that I have limited myself to not responding to many previous threads deliberatley so as to NOT make anyone feel uncomfortable about commenting on my work even though I was a member. Offering one's opinion for good or bad is the essence and lifeblood of this community. This was not the first person to make adverse comments about the deck and so it should and always will be. I accepted them as part of the inevitable diverstity of opinion. Nevertheless one thing is commenting on wether a deck meets ones personal criteria of taste and quality because of whatever. Another point is to publically offer an opinion that a deck offers nothing new and has no class. You suggest that I expect immunity from critisism, that isn't the case. But by the same token am I or any other deck creator also not free to comment in our own defence or offer an opinion as well? Or is the freedom of speech only one way. Creating a deck can represent years of work. Offering an "opinion" can be take a few seconds. With the new deck I'm producing I constantly receive feedback pointing out things that people don't like. My reaction is to consider them all and embrace many and I have modified a number of elements as a result. But when one's work is desrcribed as having no class, that borders on the indelicate to say the least ....how would YOU react.

Kissa	24 Jan 2005
cirom, as i stated in my first post, this is my opinion. i think your deck is what i shortly describe and won't say again because everybody got my point which i quite deliberately made very brutal. as you point out, so many here have praised your deck and not only in a rational way but, because we all are humans, passionnately. the fact that your deck is number 1 of the top favourite this year shows this, it is appealing to many, to most in fact. fine. there are about 1,000 praising posts about your deck and i am one voice, making one point in 5 lines. i keep my right to disagree with the majority. of course, if you are like me, you concentrate on what hurts instead of hearing all the praises. well, please in this case don't do that. it is my opinion, it shouldn't affect you to the point that you say it trashes one year of your work. if asked, i will say it again, no, i don't like the Gilded tarot. funnily though, your next work is amazing and this far, i have enjoyed watching at the work in progress... sorry. aren't humans complicated, uh? ;) you make a good point when you say that Tarot of Prague and Golden tarot use pre-existing artwork. i am more a history freak than a computer art freak so this too might explain why i didn't click with your deck. in conclusion, i will say that i am sorry i hurt your feelings. it is a complicated thing to criticize the work without hurting the creator's feelings. the only argument i have in my favour is that i was only expressing my views, if it helps, i will write a "IMO" in front of every sentence i start when i criticize a deck. re: having some class or not, it is probably the most subjective argument, i have to admit. re: bringing nothing new, well sure it brought something new, it brought your views, a part of yourself, a unique and committed human being, into the cards but i didn't think it was that significant to the tarot world the way i see it. does any of this makes you feel any better? Kissa

spoonbender	24 Jan 2005
I feel the same way about the Gilded as you do, Kissa. I personally don't like it because it just looks like kitsch. And all the cards appear to be pretty superficial - I don't think it has a lot of depth. I think it appeals to people, because the art is "romantic" and because it's very commercialised and represented as a beginner's deck (because it sticks REALLY closely to the RWS, which to me is what an RWS-clone is). I don't really mind most of the other decks, I guess. Naturally, it isn't what my top 10 would look like (none of the decks I really love are in there). I especially would have liked to see the Marseille - I think it deserves a place too. I have some serious problems with the Robin Wood and have grown out of it too, but then again, I don't think I would have been into Tarot without it in the first place. There was a time I thought it was the most beautiful and wonderful deck out there :). The Druidcraft seems to be the trend for the moment - I wonder how long that will last. It doesn't attract me very much, though. Spoon

MeeWah	24 Jan 2005
Understandable that deck creators will be sensitive regarding their work, just as any artist, writer, etc. & just as with any one thing according to the personal taste, how a deck viewed depends on the individual. Opinions expressed of both the yays & the nays for the general purpose of discussion & sharing best to be seen accordingly. That is, offered in good faith in the interest of a discussion's topic. Not so much as directed towards the person/creator in a personal manner nor with the intent to malign a work. The cyber medium what it is, care taken in the expression of any thought or opinion can better avoid the misunderstandings. To maintain the flow of discussion, please maintain the topic & *avoid the comments of the unnecessary & the suggestive to the overt of the personal asides* or such will be removed without notice. Exerpt from Guidelines: "No flaming, baiting, insults, or harassment of other members on the forum or via private message. Lack of respect for other members will result in post removal and/or suspension of member privileges." Your understanding & cooperation will assist in maintaining the forum in the manner best suited for the diversity represented & also avoid the unwelcome need for edit to outright removal of posts. Thanks very much! ~MeeWah Co-Moderator, Tarot Decks

Fulgour	24 Jan 2005
Top Ten Tarot Decks 2004 The Top Ten most popular Tarot decks, as voted by Aeclectic Tarot visitors in November - December 2004: 1. Gilded and 2. Golden http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/topten.shtml These are great days to be involved in Tarot, and it would be well to remember that in all the whole wide world, we are but the few.

baba-prague	24 Jan 2005
I'm staying out of this! :-) ... almost. What I would say is that I tend to be influenced (I know, it's not objective) also by the person/people who made the deck, and without getting into a whole debate about "good" and "bad" styles I would say I was very impressed by the one or two emails I've had from Robin Wood (she is amazingly generous with her time and experience), have found Cirom always friendly, helpful and very good to have around here, Riccardo is simply a love, and Monicka cheered up my summer here HUGELY. So - I can't possibly be even a bit objective. Unfortunately - or fortunately - I never had any contact with Crowley, alive or after-life ;-) The only thing I would also say is (I've said it before though) you would be amazed how much work we have to do on each piece of the artwork in Tarot of Prague (it goes without saying that Baroque Bohemian Cats was a crazy amount of work - the result of our slightly obsessive way of going about things I suppose - I'm not sure it's always a good thing.) The ToP example I tend to use is that The Moon figure alone (forget the rest of the image) is made up of three (well, four if you count the flowers) statues - and a lot of redrawing. In fact one of our big issues in doing the deck was that we were worried about people feeling that it was too redrawn and didn't stick closely enough to the elements as they appear in the city. However, it is beginning to be used a lot by local readers, and no-one has made this objection - it sticks to the spirit of the city very closely. I think a lot of collage that seems coherent in fact uses a lot of subtle redrawing (I'd love to also hear what Kat has to say). We are doing a drawn deck right now - and we find it much, much quicker (I'm not saying it generally is, but for us, this is definitely true in this case). Using existing elements means finding them, photographing them, digitally cleaning and restoring them, redrawing (usually) and then combining - it's not quick, honest! That's all I'm saying - oh except it's a brave thread Kissa! :-) - and let's all stay calm. _______ edited to say. Actually, I don't think I'm even responding here to anything anyone has said on this thread (sorry, Cirom, not aimed at your comment!) - I think I'm sort of rambling on in defence of a certain kind of collage, and it may all be quite irrelevant - if so, ignore please. I will always be a bit defensive about being told collage is easy - we really lived, breathed and worked on Tarot of Prague every waking moment for a year. Finishing it was one of the strangest experiences of my life - like waking up after a year in another world or something. Oh- and yes, both our decks have taken some blasts. I think Baroque Bohemian Cats always will rouse strong opinions - it isn't, and can't be, everyone's type of thing. But eccentric and particular is sometimes good. Phew - that's the longest, most verbose "staying out of it" I can imagine. Whoops.

similia	24 Jan 2005
I'm very happy with the top 10! It's much like our local elections for politicians. The guy I voted for did very well (but second place doesn't get to run the show :( ) All very beautiful decks, and a few from my own favorites made an appearance. YAY GOLDEN!!!

cirom	24 Jan 2005
Kissa wrote: cirom, of course, if you are like me, you concentrate on what hurts instead of hearing all the praises. well, Kissa Once again not so. You are right I have been privileged in receiving numerous complimentary posts. Some of which were extreme in their praise, and as such I felt moved to respond to them. Yours was not the only voice of dissent against the majority. So I don't merely concentrate on the one that hurt as you suggest. Once again I merely felt moved to respond to the more extreme. Even spoonbender who shares your opinion of the Gilded should at least agree with me on that, after all he has described my work as Kitsch on previous occasions without eliciting a complaint from me. I don't know if you're intending to be sarcastic by offering to adding the IMO before every critisism. I believe that is clearly understood by all that its your opinion. I'm not attempting to deny you the right to offer your opinion, but I believe I'm equally entitled to respond to it especially when I'm the subject of it. Consider the following if you would. On the Deck Creation forums here on Aeclectic. Many new cards and projects are posted from members of varying ability that sometimes lets say, does not always match their enthusiasm. Were we all to excercise our right and publicaly say what is truly our opinion. The forums would be an inhospitible environment indeed. As for the Gilded not contibuiting anything significant or to the tarot. I believe I made it very clear from back in 2003 that I was relativly new to this, it would be my first deck and did'nt feel qualified to venture too far from the safety of the RWS, and in doing so it would also be a familiar deck for many to work with. So I think critisising it for being what I informed everyone it would be is somewhat a redundant point. Anyway this is becoming a soap opera, I won't comment anymore, think what you will, say what you will, and too bad if it happens to be derogatory, after all you have your rights. In sighning off.. Baba, my apologies if on my previous post I suggested in any way that photomontaged decks don't represent a lot of work, and talent. I know that is not the case better than most, and I think you know me better than that. My point was that (IMO) the final composition, arrangement and choice of art may be subject to comment and opinion, but the actual statue or whatever tends to be accepted as is by default of being a pre-existing item.

ros	24 Jan 2005
I'm happy with the top 10 decks. I have a few of them. The Gilded was bought because I was going to try to read with a colorful deck. I'm into earth tone colors. So after I bought the deck and looked it over, I use it as a show deck. (it's beautiful) I use Universal Waite to read with out of habit but enjoy most decks.

baba-prague	24 Jan 2005
cirom wrote: Baba, my apologies if on my previous post I suggested in any way that photomontaged decks don't represent a lot of work, and talent. I know that is not the case better than most, and I think you know me better than that. My point was that (IMO) the final composition, arrangement and choice of art may be subject to comment and opinion, but the actual statue or whatever tends to be accepted as is by default of being a pre-existing item. You know me too - absolutely no offence taken! I also agree with your basic point - people do not so easily criticise historical imagery as in some ways it may be seen as "beyond criticism" - so by using it we may get off rather easily. However, as this thread may need some light relief I will tell you that early on with Tarot of Prague one person did say that a particular image was very badly drawn and we should totally redo it. It is in fact from 1600 and is considered a masterpiece of Renaissance sgraffito! When we explained this (I think at that stage we hadn't made it clear that the deck was collage-based) she had the great good grace to also see the funny side.

Fudugazi	24 Jan 2005
Well, speaking as someone who can neither draw live or on a computer, nor hold a pair of scissors without becoming a public danger, nor take a picture that doesn't chop off people's feet or head off (I'd have made Greek statues out of Prague's baroque splendours) - I'm pretty impressed by all you guys who make these decks. Not all will appeal to me (though I change, so things I don't like today I might tomorrow) but I hope I can recognise quality when I see it. From what I've seen of the Gilded, I don't find it kitschy- rather it very much reminds me of the great illustrators of the past - Doré and Rakham spring to mind - to which is added all the experience of the 20th century comic-book and animated artists. How it would read, I don't know - I'm not really in a RWS frame of mind for the moment, so I'll suspend my judgement. I am not attracted to it for meditation - I would find it too loud for such a purpose. But certainly it's a fine-looking deck, very colourful. I find it a bit steep to say it has no class. I adore the Tarot de Prague (I don't know why I always think of it in French!) - I don't for one minute think collage is easier or less original than drawing (especially if it integrates drawing). I am a writer: I know I pick up things from all over the place, and "found poetry" is sometimes much harder to do than making up stuff: simply because you want to give it your own stamp, yet not betray the original. Shakespeare was always picking up already made up stories, but I don't think anyone thinks him an inferior artist for that. Baba, you've made a splendid job! And it reads wonderfully, surprisingly, shockingly - very good for emotional and artistic questions I find. Robin Wood - I have read with this deck for years, but don't use it so much anymore, a lot of it now appears kitschy to me, though some of the cards I would not do without, and when I am weary and in need of an old friend, it always give me a kind but trustful answer; the pagan angle is interesting. I was never able to meditate with it, I got distracted by the style, with the exception of the 2 of pentacles (amazing female rope-walker - the best! - deep imaginative card), the vital-looking High Priestess (who looks just like the woman in the Lovers, btw, interesting choice) - and the 4 of Wands, a lovely, stately, warm composition of a couple dancing under a wedding canopy. Baroque Bohemian Cats- what a completely over-the-top gorgeous deck! It's all the good things about camp, and very funny. I don't own it but I've spent quite a while looking at it. I will own it, though! Sakki-sakki - my dream to buy it. What I've seen on the net makes me laugh and smile and wonder and think- well, why not? The Golden looks lovely, though I understand it's been modified from the lovely original to fit with US Games RWS streamlining-cloning policy. It's a shame, but I would like to own it anyway, it comes highly recommended, and I'm a fan of Renaissance art. I only wish the original were available... RWS - no comment. I learnt on it, it's a classic, but I've moved on. Probably I'll go back one day, as one does to a nice, sentimental old house. I might be surprised, even! I don't know Fey and the Druidcraft. They don't call to me, though I can recognise the quality of their work- and for the Fey, its originality. The Druidcraft looks hopelessly old-fashioned and sentimental to me. Maybe that'll change - I would need to see them close up. They both come highly recommended. Thoth - wooaah! what do I say? Love-hate relationship with this one. Beautiful Lady Harris images, crazy Crowley philosophy, very deep readings. I lost it in a move and I'm not sure if I'm ready to purchase another just yet. If I do, it will be the large cards, as before. It's the most seductive deck in existence. It reminds me of the Devil card- I'm not sure if it's a freer or a binder!!! But then, what do you expect from the Beast ;) ? I'm also sad the Marseille is not up - but which Marseille? My vote goes to Jean Dodal, hands down, no competition! If you hate him, he's long dead, so no worries! Finally, for those of you who are creators of decks and members of this forum whose decks made the top ten cut - WELL DONE! Please keep working and delighting, entrancing - or repelling us. Just don't leave us indifferent or blasé. (And please please - won't one of you create a lovely deck based on the Marseille system? pretty please? I can't bear Strength at number 8! I love pips with no figures on them!)

TemperanceAngel	24 Jan 2005
Helvetica wrote: I'm also sad the Marseille is not up - but which Marseille? My vote goes to Jean Dodal, hands down, no competition! If you hate him, he's long dead, so no worries! I agree with Helvetica here, which one??? I have only seen this list now and I must say that I think kissa is very brave to start this thread and say what was said in the first post. Everyone can't like all the decks all the time, it's a simple fact of life! I must say, I was quite surprised by the List, actually quite seems quite light, very surprised....

Moongold	24 Jan 2005
Kissa, for those of us with problem eyes it would be much appreciated if you didn't post in red on purple. Can't be read. :) Thanks. I think Tarot of Prague is a superb deck and well deserves recognition. It's also great to see RWS and Fey there. I have gone back to RWS through the Universal Waite and am enjoying it very much. I've just go the Fey and think it too is wonderful though I have not used it much yet. I haven't got any of the others (bar Thoth), and I'm not surprised to see Thoth back as well. This is a poll of Aeclectic members, right? I'm not surprised that a Marseilles is not mentioned this year. Perhaps next? When it is I'm sure some Marseilles afficionados will argue about which one, as some seem to love comparative debates (:D running for cover here). Marseille wouldn't be Marseille if there was not some passion. Personally it would be nice to see a Marseille in the top ten. I wonder how Solandia will handle an election ???? :) . We will have to caucus and nominate a representative if we really want inclusion. Needless to say my preferred option, the Ancient Egyptian, didn't get amention. Still think it's beautiful and great.

bleuivy	24 Jan 2005
I'm not going to touch the controversy in this thread, except to say that every deck featured on this site is the result of lots of work, thought, and time and even if we dissagree with a deck, or don't connect with it, I don't think it's right to dismiss them. Don't like a deck? Go for it. Don't agree with a deck? That's fine too. I even think that actively hating a deck for whatever reason is alright because it shows a strong emotional responce. But it seems harsh to dismiss a deck, because that implies no emotion at all. Alright. There's my two cents. Now on to the actual list: I found this year's list fascinating, because for the first year, almost ever deck on the list is a deck I either have, or planning on buying in the near future. ("The near future," of course, is code for "when I have money.") In other words, almost every deck on this list is one that I feel a connection with, and want to get to know more. I'll just comment on a few. First off, I can completely understand why the Gilded is number one. I love this deck, it's one of my favorites, and is one of the first decks that I really understood. It was the first deck I tried reading after my Universal Waite. While I didn't like the Universal Wait (something about the images threw me off), I could see the symbolism in it. So, when the Gilded came along, the symbolism I was used to was there, but the (to me) cold RWS images were replaced with opulance and details I could really sink my teeth into. So, I was pleased to see it at number one. The Golden: I love this deck as well, and was not surprised to see it at number two. The colage of old images really works for me: something old and new at the same time. I was pleased to see the Sakki-Sakki on the list as well. This deck is near the top of my wish list, but it seems so quirky that I didn't expect to see it. The same goes for the Fey Tarot and the Baroque Bohemian Cats'. It seems as though these decks fill specialized tastes and niches within the world of tarot, rather than being staples of the tarot diet, so I'm glad to see that quirky decks such as these can be so popular. Finally, after seeing the Robin Wood on the list yet again, I'm intregued. Will probably add it to my collection in the future, as a reference text if nothing else.

firemaiden	24 Jan 2005
Quote: "The Top Ten most popular Tarot decks, as voted by Aeclectic Tarot visitors in November - December 2004. 1) Gilded Tarot 2) Golden Tarot 3) Robin Wood 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot 5) DruidCraft Tarot 6) Rider-Waite Tarot // Fey Tarot 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot 8) Tarot of Prague 9) Sacred Circle Tarot 10) World Spirit Tarot // Sakki-Sakki Tarot " Well I voted for the Thoth this year, because I still find it one of my favorite decks for reading, and it just seems to get deeper and deeper every time I look at it. It really stimulates my imagination, there seems to be no end to what one can find in the cards. And reading the Book of Thoth is like Hashish for the mind- deliciously stimulating. I do not have the Gilded, it is not my cup of tea. I did buy the Golden, and find it lovely to look at, but have not used it for reading much. I'm not attracted to the Robin Wood, I'm a bit turned off by the "Aryan" look of the models, just not my cup of tea. The Druidcraft - I've seen in the bookstores. I missed out on the hype over this one. Is it good? should I want it. (say no....!) RWS - deserves to be perennially on the list of course. The Fey is a phenomenal deck. It also get deeper every time I look at it. This is definitely one of my top favorite decks. Baroque Bohemian Cats - I just got, I like it a lot, haven't read with it much. Not a fan of cats, but the deck is pleasing. Tarot of Prague was my vote for favorite last year. Wonderful deck. Sacred Circle - I don't know this deck. World Spirit I don't like. I think it looks "icky". Sakki Sakki - never heard of.

BlueLotus	24 Jan 2005
"The Top Ten most popular Tarot decks, as voted by Aeclectic Tarot visitors in November - December 2004. 1) Gilded Tarot 2) Golden Tarot 3) Robin Wood 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot 5) DruidCraft Tarot 6) Rider-Waite Tarot // Fey Tarot 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot 8) Tarot of Prague 9) Sacred Circle Tarot 10) World Spirit Tarot // Sakki-Sakki Tarot " Although I may agree with a few of these choices I know in my heart that many decks have been a bit over-rated, and others ( not on this list ) were under-rated. A few of my comments: I drooled over the Gilded a long time before I got mine. And although I still like to look at the images every now and then I do not read with it. Maybe it is too beautiful to read with, but to be honest, since it does adhere to RWS , I totally give it credit for that one as well. I knew it would top the charts. The Golden deck is also one of my all-time favorites, and I am very proud to own it, and with the fast rate new decks are in the market all the time, I am surprised that people still remember it. But I know that I wouldn't part with this deck at all. It deserves the rating. Very beautiful one. DruidCraft is a gorgeous deck, although I would have preferred to have the cards smaller, and shinier ( it is just me ) to make it more readable. I love the artwork, as it is very original and clear. I am glad I added it to my collection. The Prague and BBCats are also very dear to me, but I always think of Prague as a Classic, or to be one, while the BBCats is a different take deck that appeals to me as well. Sakki Sakki is a lovely deck and I would want it with me if I was stranded on an island. It is fun, readable, and 'friendly. The artwork is very appealing and it is one of my all-time favorite decks too. I would have thought other decks would/should be on that list, such as The Spiral, A few of Lo Scarabeo beauties ( Maybe next year one or two on the-to-be list should be reserved for these, in order to make people less confused by their choices and give these decks more credit ). They deserve that much. Sacred Circle, Robin Wood, and Fey? Not my all-time favorites, but I know many people like them so, ...

WolfSpirit	26 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: Needless to say my preferred option, the Ancient Egyptian, didn't get amention. Still think it's beautiful and great. This is the first time my deck of choice makes it to the top ten (former favourite was Ancestral Path). I always vote but I don't take the results too seriously; popularity polls were never really my thing. Although it is nice to see that some agree with me. On the downside, however, I now have my favourite deck called "a trend" :( Oh well, such is life I suppose.

contrascarpe	31 Jan 2005
My opinion on the top ten, er, twelve: 1) Gilded Tarot - With all due respect to Ciro, who I find talented, intelligent, charming and an all-around great guy, I never connected with this deck, and bestowed it as a gift to a dear friend. I believe it had potential, but I just didn't click with it. 2) Golden Tarot - I love this deck. The artwork of this period is a passion for me and the seamless integration of the images, and the classy packaging, make this a favorite for me. It warrants a place in my top ten as well. 3) Robin Wood - I can't disagree with this one as well. As a piece of artwork, it lacks. But I must admit that this is my main reading deck on my professional excursions and therefore it must be high on my list as well. 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot - One of the first decks I bought. I still want to learn it. I still want to love it. Just not there yet, sorry (although my lovely wife may disagree). 5) DruidCraft Tarot - Can't comment yet as I don't own it. It is on my wishlist. I was a little surprised that it is not only on the list, but so high. I look forward to lusting over it in the near future. 6) Rider-Waite Tarot - Um, OK. I guess I have to love it, just like I have to love that old relative that keeps showing up at reunions even though his stay is overwelcome. The only deck I owned for thirty years, it was refreshing when I didn't HAVE to use it. Fey Tarot - A little surprised this one is here. I do like the deck - it always surprises me. And for those who think it is a "sweet, simple deck", you haven't felt it's wrath ..... yet. 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot - My secondary reading deck in public. The kitties always speak to me. This past Sunday they blew me away. I am just starting to appreciate the depth of this deck and the pure genius which is baba-prague. 8) Tarot of Prague - OK, I voted for this deck so you know where I stand. I don't use this deck a lot, but suffice to say that this is the deepest of the RWS type decks out there. I see something different every time. Heck, why am I not reading with this one more? I was in Syracuse, NY this past week and saw they had a first edition on their shelf and just HAD to buy it, even though collectively between Gardener and I, we already had four or five copies (both first and second editions). I just know this one will be a collector's item someday. Again - BRAVO baba-prague! 9) Sacred Circle Tarot - a nice little deck but IMHO, not top ten material. I was so excited when I ordered this one (and disappointed when it arrived with several cards missing). Got my replacement, studied it for awhile and then got quickly bored. 10) World Spirit Tarot - Don't know it ..... not sure I want to. Sakki-Sakki Tarot - Don't know it ...... sure I don't want to. No offense to the creator who is on these boards, but this one isn't my cup of tea. One deck which belongs here - the Margarete Petersen. Pure genius. Even though I read primarily with the Robin Wood, my top four would have been Prague, BBC, Golden, and Petersen. My darkhorse - Tarot of the Imagination. Dan

contrascarpe	31 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: Needless to say my preferred option, the Ancient Egyptian, didn't get amention. Still think it's beautiful and great. I do love this deck as well. I have had some strong readings with it and believe it is highly underrated. Perhaps in my top ten, definitely in my top twenty. Crap, I own too many decks, don't I? Dan

Tarot Sparrow	01 Feb 2005
I guess I'll join in :) After all I do own 6 decks on this list. 1) Gilded Tarot A part of me loves this deck for its vibrant colours and amazing art, but so far I can't read with it. Haven't quite decided whether or not to keep it. Although I think I might, since it's so beautiful :) I do think it deserves a high spot on this list though. 2) Golden Tarot I just bought this one, actually after I saw the list my interest was rekindled. I think I'm glad I did--I love the historical symbolism and art, and the gilt edges. A very classy deck indeed and I think we may be good friends. 3) Robin Wood Never liked the look of this one, as popular as it may be. Just not for me. 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot I've had the Thoth for a while, but haven't really used it. I used to hate the artwork and after awhile found it so twisted and awkward and comically evil that I just had to have it. I do appreciate it now and I know my time for study will come soon. 5) DruidCraft Tarot Only saw a few images of this one online so I can't really form an opinion on it. I liked what I saw, but I don't know how well it would work for me. 6) Rider-Waite Tarot // Fey Tarot I never, ever liked the Rider-Waite, but I think it may be creeping up on me. I have a feeling I may own one soon. But I still don't really like it. However it of course deserves a place on the list. The Fey Tarot is one of my favourites. I was surprised by this deck, as are many people. It is gorgeous and original and stunningly accurate for me, and really just a joy to work with. This is my most fun and smartest deck. 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot You know, I really just love this one. I do. I'm glad it's on the list although I'm surprised it passed the ToP! I haven't read much with this deck but I have adored it from the moment I held it in my hands. It's very classy and original, a fine, fine deck. 8) Tarot of Prague I have to say that although I haven't used this one much, I love it as well. At first I was overwhelmed by the diversity of artwork but these cards really speak volumes and are really well-done as well. I'm glad it's on the list. 9) Sacred Circle Tarot Don't really know this deck but I never liked the art. Just not my thing, again. 10) World Spirit Tarot // Sakki-Sakki Tarot Again, I don't really know either of these decks. The Sakki-Sakki is just a little too odd for me, and I just don't think I could connect with the World Spirit, although a lot of people like it. BUT overall I think this is a very good list :) Even though I voted for the New Palladini, which I think is fantastic even if no one agrees with me! And hardly anyone seems to. And although I don't own the Gay Tarot, because I'm not sure it will work for me, I think it should have been on here, as should a few others, probably. But, only ten I guess (or twelve ;)).

WooMonkey	01 Feb 2005
I was kind of disappointed with this year's list, although I understand most of the choices. I was REALLY hoping that the International Icon would be somewhere on it! :(

Scion	02 Feb 2005
You and me both!!

WolfyJames	03 Feb 2005
Kissa wrote: "The Top Ten most popular Tarot decks, as voted by Aeclectic Tarot visitors in November - December 2004. 1) Gilded Tarot 2) Golden Tarot 3) Robin Wood 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot 5) DruidCraft Tarot 6) Rider-Waite Tarot // Fey Tarot 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot 8) Tarot of Prague 9) Sacred Circle Tarot 10) World Spirit Tarot // Sakki-Sakki Tarot " 1 - I'm not surprised to see the Gilded in the top 10. The deck was very hyped on the Internet right at its conception. It's a popular deck. As for me, unfortunatly, the Gilded is not in my top 10, some flaws, that I have already mentionned elsewhere (mix between pictures and digital sometimes not well done, wooden expression) kind of taint the deck for me, but I love it and use it once in a while (I have around 20 decks). 2 - Again, the Golden, like the Gilded, was very hyped and popular right at its conception and became the popular deck it is today. The Golden is top quality with its golden edges. It is also quite pretty and the collage doesn't show at all. I love medieval art and it is nice to see paintings that are not as well known as others. The symbolisms on the cards are well-rendered. This deck is in my top 10. 3 - As for Robin Wood, I cringe to see it at 3. I don't like the deck and the art, and for a pagan deck I prefer the Tarot of the Old Path. 4 - Again, the Thoth is a classic, more, a tradition of its own. I'm not surprised to see it here in the top 10. It's not in my top 10 but I love and use the deck sometimes, because it's kind of complicated, I use it less. 5 - As for the DruidCraft Tarot, I don't have it but it's in my wishlist. The art is lovely and I understand the craze about the deck. Still, I might not like it once I would get it, who knows. 6 - The Rider-Waite Tarot, like the Thoth, is a classic and a tradition, no surprise seeing the deck there. The exquisite Fey Tarot is in my top 10, a colorful candy deck that has a lot of depth to it. 7 - The expressive kitties of the Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot got to that position, easy I'm sure. Cats are inherently perfect and use it at their own advantages. I don't have the deck, another one I want, but the deck seems lovely and I'm sure the cats plotted to win. :D 8 - I have nothing good or bad to say about the Tarot of Prague, just that I'm not fond of collage decks. 9 - I have nothing good or bad to say about the Sacred Circle Tarot, just that I'm not fond of collage decks. 10- The World Spirit Tarot seems to be a colored version of the Light and Shadow Tarot. On the two, I prefer the Light and Shadow Tarot. Again, this deck has been vey popular lately, so I'm not surprised to see it here. As for the Sakki-Sakki Tarot, I have nothing good or bad to say about it. As for me, well, I voted again for The Gothic Tarot by Vargo. My other decks like the Golden and the Fey didn't need my vote at all, I knew everyone would vote on them, especially the Golden. Go The Gothic!

Shade	06 Feb 2005
Hmmmm Seems I'm a bit late but here's my take 1) Gilded Tarot - The number 1 top seller at my favorite little new age bookstore. I think it is a very pretty deck, and can see why so many have embraced it. For me, personally, it feels too much like a beginner's deck to take it on. The quality of computer art in tarot certainly is gaetting better. 2) Golden Tarot - A lovely deck, I think it justly deserves the hype it has received. It is one of the most beautiful decks in recent times. It is so nice to see a collaged deck that looks whole rather than a hodge podge of discordant images. Most people I have showed it to had no idea tah it had been collaged. 3) Robin Wood - i have often meant to buy this oneand just never have. When I started out in tarot it was referred to as the Wiccan Rider Waite, and it certainly has a lot going for it, especialy in the courts. Lack of diversity and a Devil card I am not fond of have kept it at bay tus far. 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot - I just renewed my interest in the deck this year thanks to Duquette's book. I think I would like to hear fewer peopel say "I hate Crowley but Love his deck." I'm not sure why taht bothers me so much but it does. 5) DruidCraft Tarot - Still awaiting this one in the mail. I think a lot of decks have tried (conscioulsy or not) to be the next Robin Wood and this shows the most promise of achieving that level of use and recognition. 6) Rider-Waite Tarot - Maybe it's part of my tarot upbringing but I still thin of this as the iconic deck, it's hard to have a fresh opinion about it as it's so pervaisve. Fey Tarot - This is the deck I voted for. It has taken me so very far in my relationship to the tarot. Usually when decks abandon heavy esotericism they feel empty and dumbed down but the fey realy worked towards creating a... well a whole world that it in habits with its own complex organization. I love it very much. 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot - OK before I go any further I just want to say that I understand that a lot of hard work and creativity went into this deck. When I first saw this deck on the shelf with the others it was a bit like walking around in an art museum and seeing on the same wall the works of Caravaggio and Raphael accompanied by Dogs Playing Poker. The deck tries very hard to have a sense of dignity but as I see it, in the end has none, which is incongruous with the dignity of the feline. It's fun, yes I get that, but not really much else. If I went to a reader who ouled this deck out of his or her pouch I would politely excuse myself form the table. 8) Tarot of Prague - As harsh as I was with the BBC deck I do hkn very highly of this one. It is very beautiful and it's nice to see independent decks make thei way to the top 10. I thikn it is the fresher, more independent POV that will predominate in the next few years of tarot popularity. 9) Sacred Circle Tarot - This one is still here? Why? It's an interesting deck but I don't see how it's imagery or quality of artwork qualify it for such a long stay on the top 10 poll. 10) World Spirit Tarot - I picked up a copy the moment I laid eyes on it. So many decks try to embody a pagan worldview but get caught up in the minutia of myth that they lose sight of the whole. The art really stands out wih mot of today's decks either being photoshop or comic book art (both of which I love). It really deserves teh "jewel-like colors" tagline often attrbuted to it. Sakki-Sakki Tarot - never seen on ein person so i can't rightly say if this one deserves to be here or not.

Little Baron	16 Feb 2005
Better late than never, I suppose. Interesting thread. I was also a little disappointed by the results but not surprised. Like many, I go for older decks which are less likely to be 'hyped' and have missed the 'purchasing' frenzy. I wonder if such decks will be at the top next year or whether they will be replaced by decks that equally excite the collector or multiple buyer. As I have said before elsewhere, I did have the Gilded but traded it away. No disrespect to the artist of course - it just wasn't my kind of deck. I do like the Golden - my only peeve being the little white tag at the bottom of the cards that holds the name - just doesnt seem to fit in for me. The Fey is another one whose art is lovely but just doesn't say 'tarot' to me. It is a shame that there is not a Marseille on here; no ancient Italian or Visconti's. I wonder why that is. Any views? Regards LB

bleuivy	17 Feb 2005
LittleBuddha wrote: It is a shame that there is not a Marseille on here; no ancient Italian or Visconti's. I wonder why that is. Any views? I have been thinking about that. You'd think from the high presence of Marseille and Visconti users on the boards, at least one of them would have made it to the top 10. The only explanation I can come up with is that people voted for their specific favorite deck. Since there are so many different variations of the TdM, its vote was split between them. I'm not sure, though. Anyone who voted on the TdM care to comment?

skh	17 Feb 2005
cirom wrote: Kissa, in one quick sweep you have managed to pretty much trash over a year of my work. cirom, not everyone will like your work and/or your style, ever, and it is nothing personal. In this case asking for constructive criticism instead of "trashing" is moot, as what happens is not trashing - it's just that the person and the art, the buyer and the product, don't connect. Sad, but being able to create something that appeals to a majority is no small feat and should make it easier to get over some unfavourable reviews. My take on the top ten: 1) Gilded Tarot - Too shiny for my taste, and I don't like the art style (which excludes a lot of modern decks for me), so I wouldn't buy it and can't say anything about readability or depth. 2) Golden Tarot - Don't like the style, no opinion. 3) Robin Wood - That's a difficult one. I don't have it, so I can't really judge it, but from scans I think this one, too, is too "fluffy" for my taste. I'm also wary of decks from the American New Age / Pagan tradition as I don't feel completely comfortable with it. 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot - My vote. Breeze of fresh air, unlimited depth, and a world of arcane knowledge behind it to explore. I'm not afraid of Crowley. 5) DruidCraft Tarot - Can't judge. 6) Rider-Waite Tarot - Another fresh breeze. A classic, the first tarot I ever owned, images that have become archetypes. I also belong to the minority of people who really like the artwork of Ms Smith - try expressing so much with so few and clear lines, it's incredible. No clone and no recolouring will ever match the quality of her work. 6) Fey Tarot - Can't judge, might make it into my collection for the art/cutie factor. 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot - Hm. Again, sorry to the creator, but not my style. 8) Tarot of Prague - Same as 7) 9) Sacred Circle Tarot - Can't judge. 10) World Spirit Tarot - I don't know. I like the blue people, I like the art, I like the refreshing attitude towards nudity and non-slim people. The World is just great. But something bothers me: the deck is a melting pot of cultures, everyone is happy to be thrown together with the others. Isn't this a bit easy? And again, North American Pagan is not where I feel at home. However, I like it. This one is really hard ;-) 10) Sakki-Sakki Tarot - On my wishlist, but: can't judge. Missing: Kris Hadar's edition of the Marseilles, Osho Zen (another difficult one), Secret Tarot. cheers so far, Sonja

cirom	17 Feb 2005
[quote=skh]cirom, not everyone will like your work and/or your style, ever, and it is nothing personal. In this case asking for constructive criticism instead of "trashing" is moot, as what happens is not trashing - Sad, but being able to create something that appeals to a majority is no small feat and should make it easier to get over some unfavourable reviews. I could'nt agree more. I really don't want to continue this issue but I don't want to be dismissed as a prima donna artist who can't take critisism either. Thats too simplistic. "it's just that the person and the art, the buyer and the product, don't connect." Do you really think that after 30 years in this career that I don't know that? That is'nt the issue in the context of these forums. I am a professional artist/designer who has received and dealt with good and bad responses to my work for years. Despite the relative success of the Gilded I have received numerous comment and e-mails pointing out things that people did'nt like, did'nt understand or whatever about the deck. No problem there, in fact I took note of many of them for my new project. My issue was more specifically on two points. The claim that the the Gilded contribuited nothing new to the tarot. THAT is what hurt and is an intageable comment that I can't even defend. Even if one does'nt like my style or content, to suggest that a years work and 78 images later contribuites nothing???? Gift wrapping those sort of comments with the caveat to not take it personally its just an opinion, does'nt really make it easier to take. The second point is the suggestion from various members that the popularity of the Gilded is more of the result of the "hype" that surrounded it, rather than any merit in its own right, and as such it will fade quickly along with all the other modern "novelties". The "hype" as far as I'm aware was not some mass commercial promotion paid for by the publisher. Apart from some ads and articles in their own magazine just prior to launch the only "hype" was generated by the community itself. That its popularity may fade rapidly may well be the case, after all there are so many new decks being produced, all of which will compete with one another for the limelight, unlike the classical decks from the past that are defended so adamantly by their supported for the logevity of their popularity. Of course (irrespective of their merits which I'm not questioning, so all you ToM supportes you can put away your instruments of torture :-), relativley they had the stage to themeselves for centuries, and untill recently were the only decks available. How could they not become the standards of the genre. In closing, ONCE AGAIN, by all means if you don't like a deck or specifics about it, say so. Especially if its in the form of " I don't like this or that ...."because". Hey I'm even ok when the member Spoonbender describes my work as kitch, at least I understand the word. But at least don't be surprized when I don't agree and attempt to respond, surely I also have the same rights to express my opinions in return. I would like to point out that I have been contacted by various other deck designers who have indicated that they decided to participate less in these forums or not at all because of similar issues about their work in the past. I think that is a shame and a loss for the community, as I believe our input is of interest to many. So in closing please, feel free to continue to critisise, just be aware that unlike deck creators from the past we are still alive and are human, so be a little more sensitive in how you say things, even though you have the right to be "deliberately brutal" does'nt mean you have to be. What does that contribute to the tarot ??? IMOP

skh	17 Feb 2005
cirom wrote: My issue was more specifically on two points. The claim that the the Gilded contribuited nothing new to the tarot. THAT is what hurt and is an intageable comment that I can't even defend. Even if one doesn't like my style or content, to suggest that a years work and 78 images later contribuites nothing???? Gift wrapping those sort of comments with the caveat to not take it personally its just an opinion, does'nt really make it easier to take. Hm. This makes your point a lot clearer to me, thank you for that. I still don't share it, though, in my eyes what was said is really just another valid opinion. I also find it very difficult to judge decks differently based on whether their creators are Aeclectic members or not. Ok, we are not supposed to flame each other (and I have no intention to). But is it flaming when we can't find anything good about the deck of a fellow Aeclectian? Down that road lies trouble... And: whose decks really contributed to Tarot as a whole, neither you nor I can decide, that's what time is for. cheers, Sonja

Stregaverde	17 Feb 2005
Mob mentality, indeed. :rolleyes: The Gilded may not be everyone's cup of tea (nothing is), but it's vivid and different and truly draws people to it. Like other excellent decks, it adds something to the world of Tarot. It deserves to be celebrated. There are a few posts that thoughtfully state why this deck is not for them. However, other posts from the disaffected, lamenting the Gilded's bourgeois appeal, smack of trying to be tragically hip. Art of any type doesn't have to be underappreciated to be good.

cirom	17 Feb 2005
[quote=skh I also find it very difficult to judge decks differently based on whether their creators are Aeclectic members or not.] Not judge them differently.... I'm not proposing censorship here, just a little discretion in the choice of wording. Is this really so difficult. [ok, we are not supposed to flame each other (and i have no intention to). but is it flaming when we can't find anything good about the deck of a fellow aeclectian? down that road lies trouble...] I don't see negative comments as flaming...Once again I am NOT suggesting that only sugar sweet comments are allowed. [and: whose decks really contributed to tarot as a whole, neither you nor i can decide, that's what time is for.] I would say that something that has motivated a reasonable number of people to buy it. Many of whom (according to e-mail I've recieved) were encouraged to investigate tarot further, or to return to tarot after a long absence because of it, as qualifying as having contribuited something, would'nt you say. Even if it hasn't been around for hundreds of years or meets ones personal criterea of what consitutes a good deck. Down that road also lies trouble. I am not defending my deck in terms of its art, thats completely subjective and as you suggest will be judged by other criterea. I am defending it against the comment that it contribuites nothing.

Lee	17 Feb 2005
skh wrote: [...] Ok, we are not supposed to flame each other (and I have no intention to). But is it flaming when we can't find anything good about the deck of a fellow Aeclectian? Down that road lies trouble... Hi Sonja, I must respectfully disagree, because in this particular case, the person who posted the original comments later posted that her comments were "quite deliberately made very brutal." In my opinion, that is flaming. -- Lee

Kissa	17 Feb 2005
Oh my here we go... Quote: No flaming, baiting, insults, or harassment of other members on the forum or via private message. Lack of respect for other members will result in post removal and/or suspension of member privileges. Read the title of my thread, for god's sake. It is about DECKS. Not ppl. Not creators. Not their creative work. DECKS. Bloody piece of cardboard sold for 20$ around the world. Now especially when my opinion is really (and I won't even add "unfortunatley" because I don't give a damn really) not representative of the majority why the heck all the fuss. Do I have to put the big red letters that everybody cannot read because of their eyes problem again???? IN MY OPINION the Gilded Tarot doesn't bring anything new to Tarot. It doesn't make me want to go deeper into tarot studies, this I get from other decks. And Lee: if you want to refer to my previous posts, you could also quote the part where I sincerely apologized to cirom for hurting this feeling... OOOPS I almost forgot, you might be one of those misunderstood creators who won't be displaying their work here anymore because of unsensitive morons like me... Kissa Would somebody please close this darn thread????? EDITED TO ADD: after discussions with Moderator, we agreed the thread will stay open unless it gets out of hand and some flaming appears.

Kissa	17 Feb 2005
Lee wrote: Hi Sonja, I must respectfully disagree, because in this particular case, the person who posted the original comments later posted that her comments were "quite deliberately made very brutal." In my opinion, that is flaming. -- Lee THE PERSON has answered.

souljourney	17 Feb 2005
I guess I'll give my 2 cents worth also... Quote: "The Top Ten most popular Tarot decks, as voted by Aeclectic Tarot visitors in November - December 2004. 1) Gilded Tarot 2) Golden Tarot 3) Robin Wood 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot 5) DruidCraft Tarot 6) Rider-Waite Tarot // Fey Tarot 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot 8) Tarot of Prague 9) Sacred Circle Tarot 10) World Spirit Tarot // Sakki-Sakki Tarot " 1. Gilded Tarot. This is my favorite deck. It IS what got me learning tarot. Thank you Ciro! The artwork is amazing...which is what first gets me. There is both similarity and differences from RWS. There is depth in the cards...they have animals and a lot of color to name a couple. LOVE IT. 2. Golden Tarot. If I were to ever get a "historical" looking deck I think this would be the one. This does look very nice and includes a nice book. 3. Robin Wood. Like the Pagan theme, but the artwork leaves me cold. 4. Thoth. This is on my list of wants later on. This is another "classic" and with better artwork than RWS. 5. DruidCraft. I WANT this deck. Have looked at lots of pics, read excerpt from the book. This is possibly the ultimate Pagan deck. Gorgeous pictures which is what first attracted me. 6. Rider Waite. I know it's a classic and the symbolism is great...but the artwork leaves me very cold. Even most of the variations/clones don't do it for me. This deck...and seeing only this deck when I was a teenager is the reason I didn't ever get into tarot. It is just plain ugly to me. 6. Fey Tarot. Own it, LOVE it. The images are so different on some of the cards, completely different feel...more storylike. Fabulous artwork and great book. 7. Baroque Bohemian Cats. Cute deck, but just doesn't do it for me. I don't really like "dressed up" animals. 8. Tarot of Prague. Lovely deck. Not sure what the book is like...if it explains the images and some history I could see possibly using it. 9. Sacred Circle. Own it. I don't use it a bunch, but I really like the symbolism and most of the images. I feel drawn to it. It has given me some outstanding readings about departed loved ones. 10. World Spirit. Interesting deck. Haven't seen it much. Not on my want list. 10. Sakki-Sakki. The artwork on this would keep me from buying it. To abstract for me. While some of these I own, some I don't ever want to... I think the list wasn't too bad. At some point I'd really like to see the Gay Tarot...one for the issues of breaking barriers, but I like the relatability of the modern images. Also would have liked to have seen International Icon instead of RWS. At least it retains the symbolism, and in a new and seemingly readable way. Also would have liked Gothic by Vargo...just because I really like it and the art is beautiful. SJ

Diana	17 Feb 2005
Kissa: In case something happens to this thread, I just have to say quickly that you are very cute when you are angry! :D (I think we got the message... you are talking about decks!)

skh	17 Feb 2005
Stregaverde wrote: Mob mentality, indeed. I would have prefered the term "witch hunt", to be honest. Kissa, before this thread is closed: don't take it personally, having a minority opinion is never easy. Peace, folks. Sonja

baba-prague	17 Feb 2005
and just before the thread gets closed... Personally I wouldn't like to see people too restricted in stating their opinions because the deck designers might be around. We KNEW when we did Baroque Bohemian Cats' that it was a love it or hate it deck - I've said that several times. So I can't really get annoyed if people honestly say that they don't like it - and mostly people with this opinion have said it's because they don't like the whole concept, which is fair enough (I LOVE the surreal and the bizarre and class dressed animals in that way, but I know that others really don't respond to the idea). The only time recently I've really leapt into a forum to defend myself was someone on another forum (which shall be nameless) who kept saying that Alex and I didn't believe in the magic of Prague at all. To me, that was very personal and did constitute flaming - it had nothing to do with the deck and instead was accusing us personally of hypocrisy - very odd as the person had never met us but apparently based this accusation on the way I wrote the book (hmmmm??? ) Even then, I had to see the funny side - usually I'm accused of being far too quick to believe in ALL the magic of this region! So what I'm trying to say is that we need to make a distinction between (1) criticising the work - which I think is absolutely fine (although I agree with Cirom that criticism is best when it's polite, even if it's blunt, and also that any designer/creator should also be free to respond if they want to) and... (2) criticising the person who made the work - which is different and may well be flaming. Or to put it another way, I'm trying to say that a criticism of the work shouldn't be taken personally. Okay, easily said and harder to do, but honestly, I don't want people here to be afraid to voice criticism in case the creator is around to read it. As long as criticism is honest, and not intended to do harm or to hurt, then surely it's fine?

Indigo Rose	17 Feb 2005
Kissa wrote: 1) Gilded? RWS clone. Not impressed, don't like the busy style, doesn't have much class IMO. Doesn't bring anything new at all. Gave it a chance even if i wasn't convinced by the scans online, wasn't impressed either as i held it in my hands. Didn't make me want to read with it. this is my opinion. i am really eager to read many others! kissa I am offering my OPINION which is vastly different that Kissas. I am impressed with the beautiful artwork and rich colors of the Gilded Tarot. I beg to differ with the idea that it "doesn't bring anything new at all"; it brings incredible artwork and varies the RWS deck just enough to make it it's own and not a "clone". This deck has a unique feel. There is a sense of the Rennaissance merged with the New Age. In addition, I like the use of animals and wildlife. It adds life to the deck and connects it to our planet; which is especially interesting when seen in conjunction with celestial imagery. Many of the Sword cards adequately capture the mental energy of the suit,which so often describes our struggle with negative thinking. One example is the 8 of Swords. We see a young woman chained and blind-folded, yet it is a surreal image as she is suspended in the clouds of the night sky. The swords that surround her are also suspended, but seem to be infused with powerful energy as seen by the light flowing from each sword. From all of this I feel that she is bound by her own bad thoughts, fears, and nightmares. She is captive in her own mind. That is one example. There are many more cards that communicate deep meaning for me, and are an enhancement to my readings: 2 of Wands, 4 of Wands, Ace of Cups, Ace of Wands, Judgement....to name a few. In my opinion, the Gilded Tarot has a great deal of class on it's own merit; held up against many other "popular" decks it has even more. In fact, I will respectfully NOT detail how much more class it has than many of the decks that receive so much attention on this forum. :( An old saying rings true: Opinions are like noses; everyone has one. Sharing an opinion should be done with tact. Blunt is sometimes just hurtful, not profound or truthful. Blessings, Indigo Rose :) PS: I got my mother a Gileded Tarot deck as a gift when it came out.This has become her favorite deck and the one she reads with exclusively.

catti	17 Feb 2005
baba-prague wrote: Personally I wouldn't like to see people too restricted in stating their opinions because the deck designers might be around. I would have to agree. If it is ok to have a competion, to ask for the "top 10" ..If we can gush about how wonderful and how much we LUV it and wish for it , then surely we can be on the other side. Back to this topic of the written medium we are working in, essentially we are emailing each other and I for one dont feel inclined to micro edit every post to not offend anyone. That said being an artist myself (and too coward at the moment to put up any of my work on this site ) i do have sympathies for cirom....of course kissa did not mean a personal attack...and of course cirom feels a personal affront as his creation is an extension of himself. As usual my post is a little off tangent/ summary: To those who dont know : Artists are sensitive about their $--t and it is OK to think their $--t stinks. ...before the thread is closed

Nina*	17 Feb 2005
Cirom wrote: I am defending it against the comment that it contribuites nothing Perhaps this is a misunderstanding... I just think that what was said was that it contribuites 'nothing NEW'... not 'NOTHING' :)

MeeWah	17 Feb 2005
I have discussed the status of this thread with Kissa & am satisfied with a mutual understanding. The intent of this thread not to foster opposing camps of opinion, but as a means for a discussion not otherwise available: that of the expression of opinions on a variety of decks. As not all of the audience has the decks mentioned in the Top Ten of 2004 as voted by the members, this is also an opportunity to get feedback & insight on possible decks. Therefore, I take full responsibility for keeping this discussion open. Please avoid the superfluous remarks, maintain the perspective & do address the letter of the topic. Thanks very much for the interest, patience & the understanding. Any questions, please contact me via PM. ~MeeWah Co-Moderator

cirom	17 Feb 2005
Dear Kissa, by the tone of your last post it seems you can get just as annoyed or angry when your contributions to tarot (opinions) are also criticized. Well at least we have that in common. I don't think anyone assumed your comments as being a personal attack, least of all me. Yes I know it was'nt about people it was about those $20 dollar pieces of cardboard called Decks. Thanks Diane for the clarification but I think we also got that. Whats all the fuss you ask? Well if you had spent a year creating it maybe you'd know. My responses are equally not addressed to you as a person or your right to criticize, merely the request that members consider the tone used and my equal rights to respond. By the way I quite accept your apology. My various responses since that point have dealt with others who continue to tell me how just because I designed the damn set of cardboard does'nt mean that they can't say bad things about it, something I entirely agree with but seem to have to repeatedly clarify. And if people who create decks and are less vocal than me and simply prefer to go away rather than defend themeselves or simply feel intimidated by the responces that have received or fear they might receive. Then NO I don't think thats a good thing for our community, and so rather than lashing out and sarcastically refering to yourself as a moron or being the victim of some kind of witch hunt "just because you're in the minority" as you put it. Why don't you step back and put yourself in our shoes, rather than simply reiterate how you really don't give a damn. Criticizm can be honest, positive, and helpfull, it can also be hurtfull and as you intended, deliberately blunt. Surely it can be the first and tactfully avoid the second.

magpie9	17 Feb 2005
Quote: "The Top Ten most popular Tarot decks, as voted by Aeclectic Tarot visitors in November - December 2004. 1) Gilded Tarot 2) Golden Tarot 3) Robin Wood 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot 5) DruidCraft Tarot 6) Rider-Waite Tarot // Fey Tarot 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot 8) Tarot of Prague 9) Sacred Circle Tarot 10) World Spirit Tarot // Sakki-Sakki Tarot " I too was surprised by the voting. Here's my 2 cents: Gilded:~ I didn't expect to like this deck, but I do, very much. I thought it would be too polished for my taste, but I find it beautiful and interesting. I like that it's RSW based, because I'm pretty tired of decks I have to learn a whole new system to read with. I think it's a great beginners deck, and good for us old hands, too, who every now and then need a fresh new take on the old classic. I am surprised to se it in the #1 spot, 'tho. Golden:~ I really love it. It has become my new favorite reading deck. It's the first collage deck I've really ever liked...perhaps because it's done so well that it dosn't look like collage. It looks very old, and yet is very fresh. Robin Wood:~My old favorate for many years. I consider it a classic. I even like the art, 'tho it seems to be out of fashion to say so. Thoth:~ I have always disliked everything about this deck, and continue to. But it 's a classic, and has earned it's place. DruidCraft:~ Love it, love the art, love the book, am delighted to have it. I think this is going to be the new pagan/celtic standard of excellence for many years to come. this is not a "fad" deck. RWS:~Again, a classic. So the images aren't new to our eyes anymore. So What? Our grandmothers aren't new and fresh anymore, but we love and honor them, anyway. Fey:~ I've never really warmed to this deck. Maybe it's the style of the art, the, I dunno--cuteness? I might be more drawn to it if I ever met it in person. BBCats:~ Again, I've never seen this one in person, and that might make it different for me. I think I am not really a fan of Barouque Art, with or without cats. I am a huge fan of Cats. Tarot of Prague:~ Again, I've not met it in person, but have never been drawn to it. In the few scan I've seen, it seemed to me to lack human warmth. Sacred Circle:~ Another old favorite. I'm glad to see it here. The thing about this deck, for me, is the way the images draw you into the cards, and that there are so many layers of meaning in each card. And the book is stuffed with interesting information. I agree with the people who say that the art isn't that good, too stiff, etc. But that is somehow endearing to me, perhaps because if my first coven had done a photo deck, it might look like this one, with slightly awkward, self concious models in SCA gear and trailing draperies. Odly enough, I love it. World Spirit :~ I truly enjoy this deck. I love the way the diversity is done--it's not self concious, unlike most "diversity" decks. It has such a happy take on things, without being sweet. It's another deck that is RWS based, with humor and originality. I really enjoy the art. Sakki-Sakki:~ I'm really surprised to see this here. I've only seen a couple of scans, but I really don't care for the artwork. It must have a lot more going on than I think, to have gotten on the list. I had thought of it as a fad deck, but seem to be wrong. ~~~~~~~~~~One Womans Opinion~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

contrascarpe	17 Feb 2005
MeeWah wrote: Therefore, I take full responsibility for keeping this discussion open. Please avoid the superfluous remarks, maintain the perspective & do address the letter of the topic. MeeWah - Just a quick note to say that this is one of the classiest things I have seen here on the boards. I applaud the way you handled this. The Mods take a beating here (I have been guilty of that at times) but I must say that this post was top notch. Thank you for moving forward with the spirit of these boards. OK, my two cents. I have criticized the Gilded myself in the past. Nothing major, but I have some problems with it that made me give away the deck to my dear friend Simone (so it went to a good home). After I posted my reservations, I had a nice exchange privately with Ciro about this. The result - I may not like his deck, but I respect the man and his vision. I was not surprised to see the Gilded win #1. I wouldn't call it a "mob" mentality, but it was the flavor of the year. Several new decks made the top ten list this year, and that is normal. As long as we have a yearly vote, I firmly believe that new "super" decks will take the top slot. I have voted the past two years, and both years the same deck got my vote. Perhaps there should be two votes every year - a vote on the top ten decks of the year, and for the top ten of all time. I know this isn't practical, but just a thought. That being said, I would like to react to one thing my friend Ciro said in one of his posts: "I would like to point out that I have been contacted by various other deck designers who have indicated that they decided to participate less in these forums or not at all because of similar issues about their work in the past. I think that is a shame and a loss for the community, as I believe our input is of interest to many." A shame and a loss for the community? While I certainly appreciate the involvement of deck designers in our boards, let's face it - this is a two way street. The designers are here to promote their decks. Yes, I love discussing the decks with them, but to be truthful, I have gone past being starstruck ..... these are not rock or movie stars. I respect all the designers on these boards, but the ones who are here as an active participant in our community get more respect from me. During my tenure here, I have easily been able to identify the ones who are here for their love for tarot and community versus the ones who are here for self-promotion. Ciro and baba-prague are members I respect because they have been involved in discussions other than the ones involving their own decks. The ones who leave because they can't take the criticism? Well I say, don't let the door hit you on the way out. Dan

Little Baron	17 Feb 2005
Nicely put Contrascarpe. Also, thanks to Meewah for leaving the thread open as it is an interesting discussion. I suppose that as a designer you are never going to please all of the people all of the time. If Pamela Coleman Smith was alive today, I am sure she would be extatic by how popular her paintings have become and possibly a little saddened when people describe her work as ugly, childish, cartoon-like or not 'real' tarot. As with the Gilded, the Rider Waite doesn't suit everyone. I very much liked Indigo Rose's saying, so I will repeat it - "Opinions are like noses; everyone has one". My main reason for not liking the Gilded is because I am generally interested in older decks; it's just a personal preference. For that reason, most new decks that come out are of little interest to me, unless there is some specific reason - for example, I bought the 'Buddha Tarot' recently because I was interested and curious to see how the author/artist wove Sakyamnuni's life through the major cards. I doubt that I would use it as a reading deck but it is a tool I can use with my own personal Buddhist studies. I have not become what people call themselves here - a taroholic. However, regardless of my not purchasing them or feeling that they are not right for me, I do have a keen interest in looking at the works in progress and can appreciate how much hard work went into art as superior as Cirom's, whether it is to my 'tarot tastes' or not. On the list of the ten decks, I own just two - the 'Rider Waite' and the 'Thoth'. I am sure that had there been an internet site around at the time they were originally published, despite the fame and appeal they have now, things would be pretty much the same; both would have been extreme variations from what was already known and for all of the people that were not interested in the changes brought about by those decks, there would have been many more that would have welcomed something new. Threads on here are infectious and once there is a whiff of a new deck, there is the interest of deck collectors and newer readers that are looking for something a little bit more striking than their traditional Rider Waite. Thanks to Kissa for starting this thread ... it was a brave and worthy thing to do. I think we have all learnt some interesting stuff within it. Cirom ... just to say, even though I know little about the history of your decks, you have contributed to the tarot. You are now part of the many designers that play a part in tarot's history - a wonderful achievement. I think that one of the things you have contributed, from what I can see on these boards, is that you have offered a deck, especially to newer readers, that is more exciting for them to learn the Rider Waite symbolism with. I am not saying, of course, that it is only a 'beginners' deck and no more - I have just noticed that a lot of new members here have been really struck by its imagery. I wish you all the best with your second deck. Regards to all (and their noses) LB

souljourney	17 Feb 2005
contrascarpe wrote: Perhaps there should be two votes every year - a vote on the top ten decks of the year, and for the top ten of all time. I know this isn't practical, but just a thought. I think this is a GREAT idea. I mean we get the picture already that RWS and Thoth will make it every year, because they are classics. Would it really be that impractical?? Also I'd like to add, Lee Bursten is another designer who I think has excellent contributions to the board. SJ

Myrrha	17 Feb 2005
None of my current favorite decks are on the list, but I suspect that I would like the BBC cats and plan to get it before long. Gilded Tarot: I never considered using this deck as the art is not at all appealing to me (matter of taste). The BBC cats and the Fey seem to depart from the RWS standard in more interesting ways, but again that might just be me. Golden Tarot: Very beautiful but it is hard for me to see past what the images used to be in the paintings to see what they are now on the tarot cards. There are a couple of cards that show a winged figure holding a lily and I just see the archangel Gabriel at the annunciation. The Magician just makes me think of Jesus. Several cards seem to be madonnas. I wish I could see past this and use the deck because it is so beautiful. I love that it has so many animals and plants in it. A great deck just not for me. Robin Wood: I've never liked this deck. Calling the fifteenth card "materialism" seems a bit judgemental and also takes away what I like best about the Devil card. The Wheel of Fortune card is just... unfortunate. Fey: I had the set for a while and wanted to like it. The images were designed with thought and have a lot to say. Put several cards together and they really seem to interact. The art style, big-eyed anime characters, just didn't work for me. BBCats: Don't have this one yet but am looking forward to working with it. Tarot of Prague: I had the set but traded it. It is a beautiful and very well-done deck but somehow didn't appeal to read with. It sounds strange but somehow the idea that it is Prague got in the way. Sacred Circle: Another one I tried to work with.The minors are really calm and lovely as there are no people in them. I really loved the plant imagery. The limitation to a specific culture got in the way for me. World Spirit: The idea of a deck with different races of people in it is a good one, but I find the art style of this one harsh, all those heavy black lines. Also, some of the imagery is just too strange and heavy-handedly PC for me. Sakki-Sakki: I've barely even looked at the scans. The fact that a deck with such a loose style of art made it into the top ten makes me want to take another look. RWS and Thoth: not using either deck right now but glad they are on the list. --Myrrha

souljourney	18 Feb 2005
LMAO! cirom wrote: The reason this "joke" deck sold what it did IRL is because my mom and dad now have 10,000 plus copies in the garage. Yea Ciro, I guess we know what everyone got for Christmas last year too, eh? Good to know the ToD is only limited run... wouldn't want it to be #1 next year. And yes...I use the Gilded IRL as my main deck. Along with the Fey...probably another "mob mentality" thing only for the artwork too, in some peoples opinion. But I like them and can read with them, learn from them, and think they are very deep. SJ

FearfulSymmetry	18 Feb 2005
Ok, I admit that I have been following this thread with interest, as I do quite a few, actually! I have a few reasons of my own to stay quiet most of the time- it isn't because I am afraid of harsh criticism, it is more because I am afraid of scaring people off of giving their true opinion. I really do want the criticism, enjoy it, take it to heart. Also, frankly, I find praise to be a bit embarassing and I don't know what to say, and lastly I hate it when I put my foot in my mouth and then it hangs around in writing for years! I guess I am a little shy. I do like reading about all the other decks that I love and am a fan of and I also like following the progress of other deck creators. I think its important for artists to support each other and I enjoy the company of other artists even if it is cyber-company. Everyone has different tastes in art and tarot and that is perfectly ok. There are some decks I love on the top ten and some I don't care for and some that are on my wish-list (BBCs and Saki-Saki). Oh, some of the criticisms I have particularly enjoyed about my deck are when someone used the word 'milquetoast' which I had to go look up in the dictionary and thought it was a great word!!!! and when someone said that my work was a weird mix of science fiction, fantasy, japanese, art nouveau....well I dont remember the exact words but it nailed me and all of my influences!!! Someone else was distressed that my 5s sucked. I did do a lot of thinking about that and I have problems with them too and they will be fixed somehow by the end, though not to anyones liking but my own; but I am highly aware that I am not creating these images just for myself, I am trying to convey something and if no one gets it, what good is it? So, I for one ask of you to please continue to express your honest opinions! The greatest, most influencial decks in creation have as many people who hate tham as who love them. In light of that I would consider myself honored to receive your opinions be they good or bad! ( though I hope you don't think I am snotty for saying that I am not open to suggestions for what I SHOULD paint, I need to walk down that road alone).

baba-prague	18 Feb 2005
FearfulSymmetry wrote: a weird mix of science fiction, fantasy, japanese, art nouveau..... sounds good to me! I also know exactly what you mean about not responding to being told WHAT to paint - that's one kind of comment that I never know how to deal with either - because in the end you can't work that way, it has to be personal - it's hard to explain that sometimes. But critique is good - especially when it's done with real consideration and it's trying to be useful. By the way, there is a really great and carefully thought-out section on one web-site I know (which represents artists - not us I hasten to add, we're not connected with the site) that has a lot of "dos" and "don'ts" about how to give criticism so that it helps the artist (and yes, artists and designers ARE inclined to be sensitive about their work - come on, we live it for months so we do care). I suggested to Major Tom a while back that we put up a link to those pages, I may suggest it again. I found them really helpful.

baba-prague	18 Feb 2005
cirom wrote: Classier by the minute!!! My only regret is that it was voted top for year. Boy has that backfired. Its like having a bulls eye attached to its forehead saying "I'm too popular shoot me down". Cirom, just enjoy the fact that the deck is so well-liked, and don't let controversy make that feel like any less of an achievement please. I think it would be a great shame if you really came to regret that. I think that last year the whole voting thing was somehow quieter and didn't get discussed so much and perhaps it was much easier. I've been quite surprised by the strength of feelings here this year. (edited to add, I think I've said enough!)

Stregaverde	18 Feb 2005
firemaiden wrote: Interesting, would you by any chance also be a deck creator? I was wondering the same thing.

FearfulSymmetry	18 Feb 2005
baba-prague wrote: I suggested to Major Tom a while back that we put up a link to those pages, I may suggest it again. I found them really helpful. I would really like to read it. Is there a rule here about not posting helpful links? Marie

baba-prague	18 Feb 2005
No, I don't think it was that. Maybe I'll just put it up in the "Creation" forum and check with Tom - it's pretty professionally done and the site is for fantasy artists, not about tarot, so I doubt there is a problem. I just found it well thought out - the person who wrote it is an artist herself and so she's been on both sides of criticism. It made me think. I'll do it tomorrow, need to go do other things for now.

souljourney	18 Feb 2005
Magpie... IRL is "in real life"

magpie9	18 Feb 2005
souljourney wrote: Magpie... IRL is "in real life" Thanks, souljourney. Duhhhhhh................................. :D

Alta	18 Feb 2005
I would have to agree that many here and clearly irl find the Gilded decks to be just fine. I am quite a serious reader and I like and use this deck. If you go into Your Readings you will find a long thread on daily Cards using the Gilded. I also find you characterizing everyone who disagrees with you as, what? a mindless mob or something, considerably more reflective of your character than of those who voted.

contrascarpe	20 Feb 2005
Myrrha wrote: Robin Wood: I've never liked this deck. Calling the fifteenth card "materialism" seems a bit judgemental and also takes away what I like best about the Devil card. The Wheel of Fortune card is just... unfortunate. Myrrha - You may be confusing the Robin Wood with the Connolly. The Devil in the RW is still the Devil, but is called Materialism in the Connolly. I am not sure what the WoF looks like in the Connolly, so I cannot comment on that. Dan

Myrrha	20 Feb 2005
contrascarpe wrote: Myrrha - You may be confusing the Robin Wood with the Connolly. The Devil in the RW is still the Devil, but is called Materialism in the Connolly. I am not sure what the WoF looks like in the Connolly, so I cannot comment on that. Dan Well, I did mean the Robin Wood. You are right that the card is still titled the Devil. However the illustration seems to indicate that to her it means being stuck to material things (and perhaps to a materialistic interpretation of life). Thanks for pointing out that she still titles the card The Devil. The Devil figure on many RWS decks and the Marseilles can be read in so many different ways. It can indicate a need to cast off convention and let passionate parts of the personality through. It can indicate intense sexual energy and also unacknowledged desires and "shadow" stuff. The illustration on the Robin Wood deck (just an opinion of course) does not do justice to these aspects of the Devil card. http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/robin-wood/ --Myrrha

retrokat	21 Feb 2005
Better late than never :) Feel free to give your open and honest opinions about Golden anywhere and at any time. I knew when I made it that it wouldn't be many peoples' cup of tea. In fact, I created it because (at that time) there wasn't a deck on the market that appealed to me aesthetically and that was also easy to read with, My, how things have changed in a few short years! The market's awash with beautiful RWS clones now. Note: I consider Golden to be a RWS clone in terms of the common usage of that term in the tarot field, see: http://goldentarot.com/rwsclone.htm I was actually very happy to have to opportunity/time to make my relatively uncollaged original version more RWS-like when I got a deal with USGS and thus got paid for the 1500 hours it took to create the final version. I've got a lot of comments and reviews of Golden, and I get the most beautiful fanmail every day. It's really heartening to think that I've touched so many people, just by doing something that meant so much to me. I didn't intend it to be for other people, and it's been one of the happiest surprises of my life that it's been so well received by such a cross-section of people. It hurts when you get negative criticism, especially when it's personal. A well-known esteemed tarot expert gave the most bizarre, vitriolic review of my deck on a popular tarot website: http://www.tarotpassages.com/golden-kfj.htm It's such a bitter, irrational and unreasonable assessment though, that I think it reflects far more on the writer than it does on my deck or me personally. Clearly he has a problem with USGS. Clearly he doesn't like RWS clones. Clearly, he's not a happy camper. At first, I was upset (in particular that a site I really like would give space for such a flaming, attacking review), then that passed and I realised that I just feel sorry for him. Sorry that he can't realise that there's room in the world for all sorts of tastes, all sorts of meanings and beliefs, and that aesthetics CAN add to the depth of meaning of a deck for some people (me included). I have no problem with people having their own views, especially when (as Kissa did, IMHO) it's expressed clearly as opinion. I know a lot of people have problems with Golden due to the Christian symbolism, the seriousness of the expressions, the fact that it's a RWS clone, the fact that it's produced by USGS, the fact that I'm a nobody in the tarot community, that it's not to their aesthetic taste, and a host of other reasons. That's fine & dandy, and I hope you all discuss that openly & aren't put off by the fact that I'm a member here. All of the feedback I've received will be taken on board when & if I do the next deck. But I'm still shitty that I only got number two ;) heh heh heh....

firemaiden	21 Feb 2005
Oh, that's a very strange review -- even being criticised because the deck is not expensive enough. Hmmmm. Whatever!

Alta	22 Feb 2005
Hi Kat, What a strange review! hahaha, good grief. The lady in the tiny metaphysical store here in Ottawa tells me that the Golden outsells every deck in the store 'by far'. Marion

rosyelf	22 Feb 2005
Retrokat, this is a beautiful deck ! I ordered it soon after it was published, my appetite having been whetted by the Tarot Forum and by your own site. Aesthetics DO matter. Frankly, I would not buy a facsimile of the 1909 Waite deck which the strange review holds up as THE Tarot deck. I find the basic Rider-Waites ugly. Which means I don't feel happy handling the cards. Which means, I wouldn't handle the cards. In other words, such a deck in my hands would be utterly useless. Not so your Golden Tarot, which I use for readings and meditation, finding it a real pleasure. The book is very helpful. Of course I can see the pictures, but the booklet helps me understand more of what I am seeing-those Renaissance paintings, with all that symbolism, can be a minefield for the modern person. And listing the sources-the original paintings from which the images were taken-is very helpful indeed. IMHO your analysis is correct-we are dealing with NOT VERY HAPPY CAMPER SYNDROME here. I've met a lot of people who like your deck, and almost everyone I know who likes Tarot RESPECTS your deck, even if it isn't quite their thing. So there ! Apparently, the aforementioned reviewer has "one of the largest Tarot collections in the world." Proof, if proof were needed, that large collections don't necessarily equate with broad minds. :) love to all, rosyelf

Diana	22 Feb 2005
I do not see so much a critique of the Golden Tarot in that review, but a reviewer's frustration of USGames. I cannot but agree with him. They have the expertise and the know-how to produce and to give, along with their mass-marketing and fashionable-decks-for-a-season, the world something that will last forever. (I still shudder to think how they misused and abused the great Oswald Wirth's name and cannot respect a company who behaves in such an underhand manner.) So Kat, take heart in that. It was perhaps not very honest to use this review to swipe at USGames, but I hope at least that they will sit up and listen. (Dream away, Diana, dream away....).

sherrieslight	27 Feb 2005
Here's my opinion of the top ten: Gilded - Love it and use it Golden - Don't have and won't get. Beautiful but too Christian looking for me to use Robin Wood - My first deck and still love it. Thoth - Don't have it but thought about getting it. Need to see it in person though. DruidCraft - Don't have and won't get. Nice art but Druids aren't my thing. The idea (Druids) isn't anything new or original. Rider-Waite - Don't have and won't get. Never did appeal to me. Can't get past that ugly cartoony art style. Fey - Don't have and won't get. Doesn't appeal to me. The art is too pastel and the idea (fairies) isn't anything new or original. Baroque Bohemian Cats - Don't have and won't get. Too busy, gaudy, and the idea (cats wearing clothes) isn't anything new or original. Tarot of Prague - Don't have and won't get. Too cold, art isn't that great, or consistent...I'd think I was using more than one deck. Again, the idea (city themes) isn't anything new or original. Sacred Circle - Lovely deck and nice to read with. World Spirit - Don't have and won't get. Too ugly and cartoonish looking for me. Sakki-Sakki - Don't have and won't get. Too jumbled up and weird looking for me to be able to read with. Ok, so most of these decks don't appeal to me and I honestly don't see why some of them are on the list. I agree with the other posters making the point about better decks in existence that should be on this list but aren't because they are overshadowed by the overly hyped up ones (undeservedly in most cases). I think it would be better all around if people would open their eyes and see these overrated hypes for what they really are, decks that aren't that great. If more people did this, I think the top ten would be a more accurate list of what decks are great instead of being full of flash in the pan hypes. And before any of you ask, I'm not a deck creator. Thought about it though. Sherrie

contrascarpe	27 Feb 2005
Sherrie - First of all, welcome to the AT forums. You may want to go over the New Members forum and introduce yourself. I respect anyone's opinions regarding decks, but I had to respond to a couple of your points. I think too many people don't truly understand the voting dynamic for each year's Top Ten. Some vote for their favorite deck of all-time, the one they use the most, the one that is most sentimental, or perhaps the one they believe is the most beautiful (or a combination of the above). Some treat it as the Academy Awards of Tarot Decks - they vote on the deck released that year that they feel is the best. I truly believe that MOST of the voters take the latter approach since a "new" deck won each of the past two years. You said: Quote: I think it would be better all around if people would open their eyes and see these overrated hypes for what they really are, decks that aren't that great. Firstly, this is a bold statement. We all like what we like. Secondly, the "overrated hype" argument started with the discussion of the Gilded, which you stated you like. I am on record as saying I didn't connect with the Gilded, but respect the creator and his effort. Just because I don't like it and felt it won this year because of "hype" doesn't mean I am going to tell the people who love it that they have to open their eyes and see it for what it really is. Quote: Golden - Don't have and won't get. Beautiful but too Christian looking for me to use Sorry, I cringe everytime someone says this deck is "too Christian". The intent of this deck is to celebrate art of the Medieval period. It just so happens that in Europe during this time period, artists were expected to stick to Christian themes. Personally, this deck is not only beautiful, but an example of how collage decks should be made. Each card looks as if it is a complete work of art. Quote: Baroque Bohemian Cats - Don't have and won't get. Too busy, gaudy, and the idea (cats wearing clothes) isn't anything new or original. Tarot of Prague - Don't have and won't get. Too cold, art isn't that great, or consistent...I'd think I was using more than one deck. Again, the idea (city themes) isn't anything new or original. As both of these decks are by the same artist, I will take them together. The BBC is not everyone's cup of tea. But to me it is a fun deck, and very subtle. People I read for love it and it is the perfect deck to pull out when the Seeker starts getting uneasy. The Prague on the other hand, IMHO, is not cold. This is one of the deepest decks I have. I used it the other night for an old friend who is going through a tough time. The ToP cut to the chase and I found so much guidance from it that I was drained. And as to the idea that the art isn't that great, well, again I respect your opinion, but remember that some of this art goes back centuries. I also love the different type of art used. Quote: Robin Wood - My first deck and still love it. Sacred Circle - Lovely deck and nice to read with. Regarding the Robin Wood - this is my main reading deck for my paid readings. I find it soft and inspiring. However, I combined your comments on the RW and the Sacred Circle because I believe they are inconsistent with what you said about many of the decks: Quote: isn't anything new or original. The Robin Wood is only a pagan version of the Rider-Waite. The Sacred Circle is a collage deck which has been done before (and unless I am mistaken, is a Druid deck). I hope you find your perfect deck :) Dan

cirom	27 Feb 2005
contrascarpe wrote: Sherrie - Some treat it as the Academy Awards of Tarot Decks - they vote on the deck released that year that they feel is the best. I truly believe that MOST of the voters take the latter approach since a "new" deck won each of the past two years. Dan I agree with Dan. This does seem to be the approach from most members. In fact I would suggest that next year it becomes official. Vote for your deck of the YEAR, and possibly a second category for your fav deck of ALL TIME. This may help seperate two conficting issues. One that new decks tend to be dismissed or embraced for their "newness". Either benefiting simply from the "hype" as some suggest, or handicapped for the same reason by all who consider anything new and modern with a more critical eye, than they would the established classics. As for Sherrie's previous comments describing many decks on the list "isn't anything new or original". I feel that in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't see the point of producing clones (thats why I didn't like mine as being described as such) but surely there's nothing wrong with working with a theme that been dealt with before, wether that is a city theme, druids, dressed cats or whatever. There's always room for possible improvement, or introducing a personal take or twist on a previous theme. It would be a very stagnent creative environment if everything that had been already done became a no go area for the future. And this is just as applicable to the tarot as with movies, books or whatever. Taken to an extreme this would have resulted in the tarot never having evolved beyond woodcuts. (Much as that idea may appeal to the more extreme devotees of the Marsailles :-) I don't personally believe thats a good thing). Now does that mean we should embrace every whacky tarot twist that gets thrown our way.... of course not. And therein lies the dilemma of our community....and presumably material for many future threads :-)

baba-prague	27 Feb 2005
Diana wrote: I do not see so much a critique of the Golden Tarot in that review, but a reviewer's frustration of USGames. . Yes, I got that impression too. I think it was a review focused - for better or worse - on the publisher rather than the deck or deck creator. Kat, if I were you I'd just let it wash over you (edited to say, sorry, I don't mean that to sound flip - in fact I know it can be hard not to let it get to you). I think your deck just got caught up - unfortunately - in a whole different battle.

firemaiden	27 Feb 2005
LOL, Sherri, you hardly like any of them. I voted for the Thoth. I guess it would hardly be fair to call this one a "hyped up" deck... nor of course, the RWS. As for the Fey... the pastel aspect of the deck, and the almost manga style isn't my favorite. But the concepts behind the images are fantastic, and the deck is heaven to read with. It is a very deep deck, and sometimes can be quite dark. I wonder which decks you would put up as your top ten?

firemaiden	27 Feb 2005
cirom wrote: As for Sherrie's previous comments describing many decks on the list "isn't anything new or original". [...] It would be a very stagnant creative environment if everything that had been already done became a no go area for the future. True, just think, if Shakespeare hadn't been allowed to adapt old plays into new ones, we would not now have Romeo and Juliette.

cirom	27 Feb 2005
firemaiden wrote: True, just think, if Shakespeare hadn't been allowed to adapt old plays into new ones, we would not now have Romeo and Juliette. Or Romeo and Juliette to in turn be modified to West Side Story.........etc etc

Fudugazi	27 Feb 2005
cirom wrote: There's always room for possible improvement, or introducing a personal take or twist on a previous theme. It would be a very stagnent creative environment if everything that had been already done became a no go area for the future. There are some who say that everything that was ever said or pictured or imagined was done so by the Ancient Greeks. That may be so (unless we decide to look at science) but if we decided not to give Aristotle and Aeschylus a little competition, creative humanity would grind to a halt. Joyce wrote Ulysses, after all ;)

Fudugazi	27 Feb 2005
firemaiden wrote: I voted for the Thoth. I guess it would hardly be fair to call this one a "hyped up" deck... nor of course, the RWS. hehe, some would say the Thoth and its creator are the most hyped up creations of all times })

baba-prague	27 Feb 2005
Helvetica wrote: There are some who say that everything that was ever said or pictured or imagined was done so by the Ancient Greeks. Except for the Internet, which as everyone knows, was invented by the Ancient Geeks. (sorry, a touch off-thread there)

firemaiden	27 Feb 2005
Helvetica wrote: hehe, some would say the Thoth and its creator are the most hyped up creations of all times }) and I would vehemently disagree.... to me, the Harris paintings are ravishing, and unfathomably deep.

firemaiden	27 Feb 2005
Helvetica wrote: hehe, some would say the Thoth and its creator are the most hyped up creations of all times }) and I would vehemently disagree.... to me, the Harris paintings are ravishing, and unfathomably deep. (trying to find the word for insondable .)

crystal cove	27 Feb 2005
firemaiden wrote: and I would vehemently disagree.... to me, the Harris paintings are ravishing, and unfathomably deep. (trying to find the word for insondable .) Absolutely! I haven't read with this deck in some time, but I'm not oblivious to its merits. The cards themselves are just gorgeous. This deck was the first one that ever moved me.

crystal cove	27 Feb 2005
similia wrote: I stumbled across an old poll on another website of people's least favorite deck, and the Thoth came first with a 1/3 of the votes. I guess controversy = longevity. I'm not getting the connection. Not liking a deck doesn't make it controversial and does make a deck a top seller for decades.

retrokat	27 Feb 2005
I think the fact that there are SO many decks being released now mean that inevitably there are also a lot more 4-5 star decks, and it's the cream of the crop that tends to get reviewed first. I'm not a particualrly defensive person, but I do wonder about the definition of 'flash in the pan' and 'hyped' decks. Since a number of posters keep lumping all the new decks together, I guess that includes Golden. I don't completely know what the marketing of my deck's been like but I don't think there's been much, apart from USGS showing it at Trade Fairs. I know I don't promote/advertise my site at all - I just built it, and they came. My reasons for participating on boards are selfish, but not so much to promote my old deck as to help me improve if I do another one - I find the feedback I've gotten invaluable. If anyone's hyped the deck, it's just been the sincere efforts of fans at a grass-roots level, and if that's hype than I don't mind being considered hyped as I'm so grateful for the amazing support I've received. I do, however, feel uncomfortable being referred to as a flash-in-the-pan. I was hoping more for a sleeper success. I hope that in 20 years, a whole new generation of people who love tarot and medieval/renaissance art discover my deck and use it. I hope they do tours to see the original art, campaign to preserve the original frescoes, and come up with new ways to use technology to bring the beauty and depth of that period's art to new audiences. Even if it's just a handful of people, if it triggers their own passion and creativity, then that's how I'll be measuring the success of the deck personally. In terms of other peoples' measures, sure - the deck probably won't be in top 10 again next year, let alone in 5 years. USGS may replace my niche market with someone else's deck, and so it may disappear from the shops (which is the main reason it's selling so well - because USGS have excellent US distribution, that's for sure). My criteria of success are much longer-term than that though. I have a bit of a fantasy: Circa 2050, a young girl finding a tatty dog-eared copy of the deck with the gilt edges long worn off among her Grandma's things and treasuring it, both for what it meant to her Grandma and also for what it is in itself. No doubt I'll be even more of a nobody by then if I'm even still alive, but if that happens and I get just one such email (or telepathic video message or whatever the equivalent is by then!), then I think that would justify the long months I spent creating it. Especially compared with whatever else it is we do with the time given to us in this life.

retrokat	27 Feb 2005
PS - we all have agendas. Recognising what our own agendas are is probably one of the things tarot is most useful for. Personally, I like to lay my cards on the table (excuse the pun) and be up-front about my agenda. It makes life a lot easier IMHO.

contrascarpe	27 Feb 2005
Kat - The only agenda you have is to promote your art. And you (and Ciro, and baba-prague, and M-Press) should be proud. Quote: I have a bit of a fantasy: Circa 2050, a young girl finding a tatty dog-eared copy of the deck with the gilt edges long worn off among her Grandma's things and treasuring it, both for what it meant to her Grandma and also for what it is in itself. Hmm, you ARE psychic. You just described my Granddaughter. Of course, I find it sexist that you think it is Grandma's deck ..... it could be Grandpa's, too, ya know ;) Dan edited for a typo

MeeWah	27 Feb 2005
Due to issues with this thread, it is being closed temporarily for review. ~MeeWah Co-Moderator, Tarot Decks

Sulis	28 Feb 2005
Hi Folks, This thread has been reviewed, some posts have been removed. It is now open. Love Sulis xx co-moderator - Tarot Decks

retrokat	28 Feb 2005
Dan - good call, and it could also be a Grandson making the discovery :)

Fudugazi	28 Feb 2005
firemaiden wrote: and I would vehemently disagree.... to me, the Harris paintings are ravishing, and unfathomably deep. (trying to find the word for insondable .) I shan't disagree with you on the paintings. Or on the deck. I was expressing what can be heard from time to time. My opinion of Crowley's no secret- even though you've made me look at him differently, firemaiden. Insondable is good. People have said that about the readings I've done with this deck ;) Ah, but the Thoth always strikes me as more airy than watery- so I'll suggest - etheré, instead. Or is there a word meaning both up there and down below???? I guess hype, like beauty and love, is in the eyes of the beholder...

Milfoil	01 Mar 2005
I'm new here so please forgive me if all this has been said before. Just reading back through the last few pages, I had to say that I find the Golden Tarot to be the only deck I have ever 'engaged' with on any meaningful level. I pre-ordered it based on the web site images and when it arrived, it was way better than I had imagined. (thankyou Kat) That rather odd review smacked of sour grapes (though for what, I have no idea other than a dig at US games) and the comment about the images being too Christian is a view that had never occured to me before (not being a practicing Christian (not a practicing anything really) I guess that aspect of the imagery didn't seem important enough to me to make a mental note), so I guess in the most basic way, the tarot speaks to us all very differently depending on the pack, the imagery and whatever phsychological baggage we bring to it. I must be very picky indeed because there are VERY few decks that I feel at home with. My brother in law has a deck which he absolutely loves (no I have no idea which one it is), its dog-eared, well worn and bland (to my eyes) but he insists its the only deck he can warm to. Personally I think its dreadful but thats the beauty of all these wonderful decks, their sheer diversity allows everyone to find at least one deck they are comfortable with. So many people seem to knock the good old Ryder Waite deck but though its not my favourite deck, it was my first and did help to teach me the basics. It made it easier to learn the tarot and from that point alone I would recommend it.

sherrieslight	01 Mar 2005
Dan, I thought about an introduction but didn't see the point. I've been reading the forums for many months, long before I joined. I wasn't planning on being a frequent poster but wanted to add my 2 cents to this thread because I think there are too many "hyped up" decks in the top ten. That's my opinion. Some members might agree with it and others may not but it's all ok because everyone has a right to their opinion. Academy Awards of Tarot Decks? LOL, now I think that's pushing it. AT is a nice group but it doesn't represent everyone in the world of tarot or everyone who buys tarot decks. Besides, if it really were like an Academy Awards, the list would've been very different because only decks that were actually released in 2004 would've been eligible. The RW, Thoth, Robin Wood, Fey, Tarot of Prague, Sacred Circle or World Spirit wouldn't be in the running. I know Prague had another release in 2004 but since it won the year before, it still woudn't be in the running because you can't have the same actor/movie/deck win two years in a row for the same performance. Amazon had April 1, 2005 as the release date for the Druidcraft. The only deck in the top ten I've heard people raving about in real life (IRL) is the Gilded. I've heard people discuss the Golden but the opinions were very mixed so I can't say everyone was raving about it like I can for the Gilded. The rest of these decks end up in 1 of 3 groups...the accepted group because it's been around for years...the unknown group because no one's heard of it...or the dismissed as ridiculous group (I'm putting this nicely). I mean no disrespect to any of the creators, I'm just explaining how things are in my neck of the woods. It's ok that you don't like the Gilded, no deck will ever appeal to everyone. And it's ok for me not to like the decks I said I didn't like. I think there's a misunderstanding, I was merely stating an opinion, not telling others how to think or behave. The Golden looks too Christian to me which I already said I didn't care for. And since you brought up the artists in that period were expected to stick to Christian themes, that makes it very Christian in appearance which is why I don't like it. Sorry but 18 years of hard core fundamentalist Christianity being rammed down my throat 24/7 was more than enough for me. I already said it's a beautiful deck but I still won't buy it because I'm repelled by the Christian appearance. The Baroque Bohemian Cats is definitely not my cup of tea and I already said so. It may be fun to you but I honestly don't see how you could refer to it as "subtle." I think it's about as subtle as getting hit in the head with a two-by-four. It's too busy, gaudy, over the top (in a bad way), and that frilly border makes it even worse. There's too much sensory overload going on and I don't like decks like that. I'm especially repelled by the idea of cats being dressed up in clothes...cats are too dignified to be shown dressed up like characters straight out of the movie Amadeus. There's nothing wrong with novelty decks but I think the Baroque Bohemian Cats goes too far which is why I don't like it and won't buy it. Sorry but I still disagree with you about the Tarot of Prague. It does elicit a cold feeling in me because many of the cards feature statues which are cold and lifeless. My friend Laura showed me the deck before she donated it to a new age bookstore over a year ago...it's still sitting on the shelf btw. I think you misunderstood what I meant about the art not being that great. I wasn't referring to the statues, paintings, architecture, etc...I was referring to the way the artwork was put together for the deck. I don't think the collage is that great, it's not meshed together very well. I don't expect any deck to be flawless but many of the art styles used on the cards are very mismatched and it looks very weird...this is what repells me the most about it. I think this deck lacks any consistency and that's why I said I'd think I was using more than one deck. You may like it but I don't and I still won't buy it. Robin Wood, yay, we agree on one! The Robin Wood has been around for about 14 years and it was the deck I learned to read with. Maybe it's a "pagan" version of the RW but I still think it's much nicer to look at than the RW. The Sacred Circle was given to me by my brother several years before he died. He liked to read with it and got me interested. I don't consider it to be a Druid deck. All Druids may be "pagan" but not all "pagans" are Druids. The Sacred Circle has been around for about 7 years and even though you didn't quite bring up the Druidcraft, I will. It's a new release but all I see in the Druidcraft besides nice artwork is another repetitive theme deck. The metaphysical market has been glutted with these kinds of decks such as medieval, celtic, fairies, egyptian, romance/love, native americans, druids, anime/manga, pagans, cats, angels, and now dragons, witches, vampires, gothic, and theatrical seem to be joining this list of fads. Ok, so the Sacred Circle is a collage deck but so is the Golden, which you like, and so are the Baroque Bohemian Cats, and the Tarot of Prague, which you also like. I have nothing against collage decks...I now prefer them to most of the traditional drawn by hand. I still have no desire to ever own the Golden, Baroque Bohemian Cats, or the Tarot of Prague because like I already said, I don't like them. None of these decks appeal to me so I'm not going to buy them and I won't be changing my mind. I simply won't buy decks that don't appeal to me and the Golden, Baroque Bohemian Cats, and Tarot of Prague don't appeal to me at all. Thanks, I hope I find my perfect deck too! Sherrie

sherrieslight	01 Mar 2005
Firemaiden, LOL, I know! I've become very picky about the decks I buy after making numerous mistakes. I've heard so much about Thoth. It seems to be either a love it or hate it deck so I thought it would be better if I held it in my hands and then decided. I agree, the Thoth and RWS couldn't be called "hyped up" decks. I'm not a big manga fan either. Maybe I'd have to hold the Fey in my hands? What turned me off was I didn't care for any of the scans I've seen. They looked too pastel to belong in a fairy deck. The decks I'd pick as my top ten are the ones I actually have and use on a regular basis. Why think a deck is great if you don't use it much or at all unless it's a collectible? I have some other decks but don't use most of them because I thought I'd like them but when I got them, didn't connect with. I also have a few limited edition decks I like to look at but not read with because they're oop. I'm also waiting on several more decks in the mail so my list is subject to change if any of these decks turns out to be a better fit. Sherrie's Top Ten: 1. Ananda 2. Tarot of Timeless Truth 3. Cosmic Tribe 4. Blue Moon / Starlot 5. Gilded / Quest 6. Gendron 7. Robin Wood 8. Sacred Circle / Vision 9. Tarot of Transformation 10. Gay You might love them or hate them but these are my picks for the top ten. Sherrie

Fudugazi	01 Mar 2005
What a cruel opinionated post you just wrote, Sherrie. Nobody is forcing you to like any deck, far less to buy one you don't like. Fair criticism is always constructive and useful: but not the kind of unfounded, unspecific, one-side and below-the-belt attack you have just made. And how is anyone to know you have read this forum for months? You come in, burn a pile of tarot decks some people have worked hard on and which surely deserve more than the dismissive flick of your matches (whether you like them or not) and you don't even have the courtesy to introduce yourself. This post of mine will probably be deleted and I'll have my fingers rapped: but I wanted to say I do not come to Aeclectic to read the kind of unkindness and poor spirit I read in your post just now.

cirom	01 Mar 2005
re sherrieslight comments... WOW.....I hope you did some breathing in between that typing, I'm breathless just reading it. [edited by moderator.]

Alta	01 Mar 2005
sherrieslight, the way you post sure sounds familiar. Haven't we seen you before?

rainwolf	01 Mar 2005
It seems like all the decks i like are not RWS clones and therefore i cannot read with them which perturbs me...:( I agree with you on the Gilded, some people may like it, but it just looks like another deck, the downfall are the borders, waaaay too fancy@$$ for me--CUT EM'! but then it is too small... The world spirit: i like the linoleum cuts, but the artwork looks too childish even though she tried to encompass everyone. She couldve made it more natural.

baba-prague	02 Mar 2005
Well, as a Bjork fan I'm delighted to see that we're in GREAT company: http://www.bjork.com/grapewire/?id=507;year=2005 Apart from that I don't see much point in replying - again (are we on the second time around or is it the third now?) - to that post ;-) I vote we don't stick pins in Kissa though - I think she has had QUITE enough unexpected fall-out from starting this thread.

WolfSpirit	02 Mar 2005
sherrieslight wrote: The metaphysical market has been glutted with these kinds of decks such as medieval, celtic, fairies, egyptian, romance/love, native americans, druids, anime/manga, pagans, cats, angels, and now dragons, witches, vampires, gothic, and theatrical seem to be joining this list of fads. Of course, some of the decks in your own top ten also fit into these categories. Nice artwork, but "just" theme decks ;)

Myrrha	02 Mar 2005
rainwolf wrote: It seems like all the decks i like are not RWS clones and therefore i cannot read with them which perturbs me...:( Hi Rainwolf. Yes, but don't you think that if you stick with it for a time you will be able to read with the non-RWS decks that you like? On your profile you mention the Navigators of the mystic SEA and Liber-T which are both complicated and intense. They both seem worth the time to learn. It is really daunting learning and getting to know multiple decks though, even when they are RWS "cousins" as my own favorites are. --Myrrha

sherrieslight	02 Mar 2005
Helvetica, I gave my honest opinion of the top ten, then Dan kinda criticized me for not liking 3 of the decks he likes. I wanted to explain to him why I didn't like these decks so he could understand my point of view. I don't expect him to agree with it, just to understand why I feel the way I do. I joined mid October 2004 and just like all the other members, you can see when I joined on my messages. I'm sure there are alot of other members who lurk and don't post much so why are you calling me out? You're jumping all over me for my explanation to Dan even though I already said I meant no disrespect to any of the creators. I'm sure there was alot of time and work involved in making these decks but that doesn't mean I have to like them. But by the mean tone of your post, you seem to think I do. I don't see how you can call my criticism unfounded, unspecific, one-side, or below the belt. Why is my criticism "unfounded"? Because you don't agree with it? Are you saying I'm not permitted to exercise my right to voice my opinion or to criticize a deck I don't like? There were other members being critical...some were very brutal too but you're not jumping all over them for stating their opinions like you are doing to me. I thought I was pretty specific why I didn't like these decks. I also don't understand the one side comment because it's my opinion so of course it's going to be one sided, just like yours is. I thought opinions were one sided personal observations we each have about different things. I like Dr. Pepper, maybe you like Sprite better. Neither of us is wrong just because I like one thing and you like something else. I don't think stating my reasons was a below the belt attack either. A below the belt would be criticizing the creators on a personal level like saying they're fat, ugly, dumb, or personal comments like that. I never said anything even close. My comments weren't personal...they were about the decks. You said " I do not come to Aeclectic to read the kind of unkindness and poor spirit read in your post just now." Just because you don't agree with my opinion, doesn't give you the right to berate and attack me either. Sherrie

sherrieslight	02 Mar 2005
[edited by moderator for content] Go to this link: http://www.virtual-design.com/demos/voodoodoll/voodoo.asp?section=demo&subsection=voodoo. This is a great stress reliever. Sherrie

retrokat	02 Mar 2005
Hi Sherrie, I agree wholeheartedly that you have the right to not like my deck and you're perfectly justified in your opinion that the imagery is mostly Christian (and therefore you don't like it due to your own personal background). Personally, I don't like much Fantasy Art or flowery hippie-style imagery - I don't really know why, who knows how we develop our aesthetics in early childhood.... While I have the utmost respect for their creators of those sort of decks since I know how much effort it is to make a deck and how competitive the field is to get it published, I don't personally like them. I still admire them though, and am thrilled by their success. The fact that most decks are still created by artists and then published, rather than being done in-house by graphic designers being paid a wage by a Publisher to produce to a brief means that we're all pretty personally tangled up with our decks. It's a sensitive issue to criticise someone's life's work - nomatter how much you try to be clear that it's about the product and not the creator, it's always pretty close to home. I for one accept that, and have got a bit sulky when I think the criticism is unfair (as I see that linked review to be) but apart from that - everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm very fussy when it comes to what I like - so what goes around comes around! Kissa DID ask for our opinions so if we can't express those views in this thread, then where? Bring it on, baby ;)

retrokat	03 Mar 2005
Just for the record - my favourite deck ATM is "The Housewives Tarot" and I also still love the "Victoria Regina" deck. Both for aesthetic reasons, but also they meet my personal criteria of being based on RWS enough to be easy to read with. My opinion of the Top Ten is that they all deserved to be there, each for their own reasons. People loved them or they wouldn't have been voted in, and we should all have the right to love as we choose. While we here on Aecletctic don't represent all of the tarot-buying public, the Academy Awards sure aren't voted by the moviegoing public either :D I agree with those who have suggested having 2 polls - Best Ever and Best 2005 Release next year. I can vote "Housewives Tarot" for both!

retrokat	03 Mar 2005
Oh, my one little nitpick... it was a Top 12. I always thought that if there was a draw for, say 6, then the next one after that is 8, then 9, then 10 - so it's still a Top 10.

Fulgour	03 Mar 2005
delete

cirom	03 Mar 2005
retrokat wrote: Hi Sherrie, Kissa DID ask for our opinions so if we can't express those views in this thread, then where? Bring it on, baby ;) I agree....to a degree. My point (once again) is that same freedom to express ones views should also extend to the artist in question, and he /she presumably has the right to respond to critisism without being simply being labelled a prima donna who can't take it, or only wants to hear the good stuff. Using your deck as an example. To say its too Christian is I feel a legitamate comment. The visual content is derived from a point in history where the art from that era and location was predominanty Christian. By default the deck reflects that. If someone feels uncomfortable with that religion then there's a good chance they they may not respond positivly to the deck. That isn't even a critisism in my book, its an explanation, which is perfectly acceptable to me. If on the otherhand (FOR EXAMPLE) someone described you deck as simply doing a digital cut and paste of pre existing art, and simply rearranging it, and apart from spending a few hours rummaging through some old art books for reference, whats the big deal.... That would be an unecessarily blunt comment,which can't help but be hurtfull (even if it is gift wrapped in that get out of jail free card called IMO). It would also demonstrate the person's ignorance or at least lack of knowledge of the skill involved in what you produced. And even though you seem to indicate that you would be ok with that "bring it on baby". I personally wouldn't, and would feel the need to respond and defend my work. As was posted previously, I believe by Dan, we (deck designers) are not rock stars, or celebeties. Exactly...on these forums we are just members with rights of opinion too.

retrokat	03 Mar 2005
Hi Ciro, Actually you're the first person (to my knowledge) to suggest on the web that my deck involved so little work/talent, even if you do so as a hypothetical example - which isn't much different to a 'get out of jail free IMO' logically speaking. I said in my post that I'm a bit offended by unfair criticism such as the linked review, but I don't particularly feel the need to defend myself in such situations, as unfair criticism says more about the critic than that which they criticise.

Fudugazi	03 Mar 2005
sherrieslight wrote: Just because you don't agree with my opinion, doesn't give you the right to berate and attack me either. I should not have been so intemperate, I was angry, which is not good for th atmosphere on this forum. But I do not apologise for the sentiments I expressed. I already said, I have no problem with you not liking this or that deck. Ihave my opinion on decks too. I do have a problem with vicious attacks that pass off half-baked observations as art criticism. To say you reject the Christian art of the Renaissance because you were forced down Christianity as a child, I can understand. To go on to say a deck is bad because it is full of Christian art of the Renaissance is absurd. As for the Tarot of Prague, have you stopped one minute to consider that the aim of the deckwas precisely to reflect the diversity of the city? Of course it will have different visual contents! That's its joy and its very aim! It won't please everyone, but it does not merit the kind of unsubstantiated hatchet-job you've done on it. That's my last word on this tedious subject. As I said, we won't all like the same decks and we are allowed to say so.

cirom	03 Mar 2005
Oh Dear, that obviously got lost in translation. First of all I was trying to demonstrate two types of critisism that could be levelled against the same deck. One would be acceptable, one not, I do not think for one moment or suggest your deck required so little work and talent. Indeed in my example I point out that were such a comment to be suggested, it would show the ingorance of the person who made the comment and as such be justifiable for the artist defend. So it is different to the usual IMO. I don't just think your deck involves talent, I KNOW it does. I give lectures and seminars on digital imagery so I say that from a professional point of view, not merely a subjective one. And for the record I have stated on previous threads that yours is an excellent deck and is in fact my personal favourite. (check my profile) Nevertheless my example, even if it was misinterpreted does demonstrate my point, as apparently even you at least on this occasion were affected enough by it to respond. Please accept my apologies.

Annabelle	03 Mar 2005
Well, I've run across this thread so many times now that I just can't resist posting :) As I don't own some of the decks on the top 10 list, I can't make detailed comments about them, but I can say that having seen pictures of at least some of the cards in each of the decks, I understand why they made the top 10. All of them are great decks. 1) Gilded Tarot - I don't own it, but I've seen pictures of most of the cards. It's gorgeous, and I can see why it's so popular and why it made #1 on the list. But it's just not to my taste, so I haven't bought it. 2) Golden Tarot - I don't own it yet, but it's on my wishlist. I love good collage decks, and this looks like one of the best. Beautiful, from what I've seen of it. 3) Robin Wood - Yet another one I don't own, but it's definitely stood the test of time so far. There's just something about the art style that doesn't quite grab me, but it's an appealing deck, all the same. 4) Aleister Crowley Thoth Tarot - An outstanding deck. I own 3 copies - a large deck and two small decks, one of which I keep at work. 5) DruidCraft Tarot - I don't own it yet, but will probably buy it soon. Gorgeous deck, from what I've seen. 6) Rider-Waite Tarot // Fey Tarot - I own the RWS and love it. I'd personally put it as #1 on the list, followed by the Thoth at #2, followed by the Marseille at #3. As for the Fey, it's really not my thing from what I've seen of it, but I can see why others like it so well. It looks as if it's very nicely done. 7) Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot - Ah, cat-themed decks aren't my cup of tea, but this is the most beautiful cat-themed deck I've ever seen. Stunning, although I probably won't buy it. 8) Tarot of Prague - I would have liked to see this one higher up in the list. I own it and I absolutely love it. Cannot say enough good things about this deck--one of my all-time favorites, definitely. 9) Sacred Circle Tarot - Don't know much about this one, really. Pictures of it look pretty good, but it's just never caught my interest. 10) World Spirit Tarot // Sakki-Sakki Tarot - I don't own either of these yet, but wouldn't mind having them both. The World Spirit is one I've been wanting to buy for a while, and the Sakki-Sakki looks really cool. Overall, this is a good list...all of these decks deserve positive recognition. Would have liked to see a Marseille deck up there, though. My personal top 10 would have to include the Robert Place Alchemical deck as well.

Little Baron	03 Mar 2005
I keep coming back to read the responses in this thread because I think it is a very interesting conversation .... I think ... that if your deck touches even just one person, that if it aids one reader to help just one querant through a hard time, that if it leads one beginner into the world of tarot, that if it inspires just one artist to create a work of art themselves, you have achieved your goal. LB

cirom	03 Mar 2005
LittleBuddha wrote: I keep coming back to read the responses in this thread because I think it is a very interesting conversation .... I think ... that if your deck touches even just one person, that if it aids one reader to help just one querant through a hard time, that if it leads one beginner into the world of tarot, that if it inspires just one artist to create a work of art themselves, you have achieved your goal. LB Oh I love it.....That has made my day......Thank You

baba-prague	03 Mar 2005
Yes, I think that was a good thought LittleBuddha - thank-you. My best moments are when I see one of our decks in use - and giving pleasure/advice/insight whatever. I don't expect any deck to work for everyone, but you're right, if it works for some, that is SO good to see.

Jeannette	03 Mar 2005
Thought this might provide an interesting parallel to the discussions at hand. It's a "top ten" from a retailer's perspective... no endorsements, no criticisms intended. Just hard figures as to what sells -- or what sells well at Tarot Garden, at any rate. However, I'm just one retailer, and a specialty one at that. So I know that this can't be reflective of the market as a whole, where the good ol' RWS deck is undoubtedly still "king" (or "queen," if you prefer). Perhaps a list like this is more reflective of short-term trends, although of the decks on the list that have been around for more than a year, most seem to have hit our bestseller list right from the beginning, with sales remaining strong every year. I've posted our all-time bestsellers on one or two previous threads (although if I went back and looked those up, I'll bet there's probably been some slight shifting of numbers since then). But the list below is what sold best specifically in 2004. The comparison between our best sellers and the voted list made for some interesting "mental daisy-chaining" for me. So, here they be... 1) Gilded Tarot 2) Golden Tarot (a very close second, actually) 3) Ananda Tarot 4) Hello Tarot (yes, *that* Hello Tarot -- the "Kitty" one) 5) Black Tarot (Luis Royo) 6) Gothic Tarot (Joseph Vargo) 7) Margarete Petersen Tarot 8) Tarot of Prague 9) Tarot ReVISIONed 10) Liber T: Tarot of Stars Eternal Comments: I'm guessing that if I went back and added up all the "real" RWS clones -- that is to say, the ones using Pamela Smith's actual images, but just recolored or rebordered, like the Radiant RW and the Diamond Tarot, etc. -- then the RWS would probably be on the list. [okay -- confession time. in terms of number of decks moved, the real number 1 seller at Tarot Garden in 2004 was... the Miss Cleo Tarot. Really. BUT -- the reason was because I bought a bunch in bulk really cheap, and then ended up selling almost all of them to the same customer almost as cheaply, so he could use them for a project that involved splitting up the decks and cutting up the cards. So, I have to ask: does that really count?] Baba-Prague: Y'know... I know we've discussed this in personal email exchanges, but just for the public record -- I'll bet the BBCats deck would have had a better shot of making our "top 10" list if there hadn't been those, um... "distribution difficulties," eh? I know we lost some sales over that problem, although for your sake, I hope that was just business taken elsewhere, as opposed to people simply giving up and not buying. Druidcraft: Hasn't been released in North America yet, so obviously it didn't even have a shot at making our bestseller list. But it's due out here very, very soon, and based on the inquiries and waiting list I have for it, I expect it to sell well once we can get our hands on it through a direct channel on this side of the Atlantic. Anyone want to take a stab at guessing what's started off with hot sales in 2005? ;) -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

baba-prague	03 Mar 2005
Jeannette wrote: Okay -- confession time. In terms of number of decks moved, the REAL number 1 seller at Tarot Garden in 2004 was... the Miss Cleo Tarot. Really. BUT -- The Tarot Garden ROTFL! Wonderful - but how great to use it for collaging - in fact I guess it would work well for that. Distribution? Oh let's not go there - it was awful. I do think our US distributors are now getting things together again - they have also begun going to INATS shows and so on - all signs of good organisation. But last autumn was not their best moment and sadly you were not alone in waiting while the decks sat somewhere on the docks in LA. This year we hope to ship REALLY early. This spring? Hmm, I would guess that the Housewife's Tarot is doing well? But I may be WAY off?

Jeannette	03 Mar 2005
baba-prague wrote: This spring? Hmm, I would guess that the Housewife's Tarot is doing well? But I may be WAY off? No, that's an excellent guess. The Housewives' deck has sold well for us. But therein lies the problem of bestseller lists -- calendar boundaries can be so artificial. The Housewives' deck came out late in the year, so although sales have been strong, it's had a realtively short timeframe to rack up the numbers. Furthermore, those numbers have been "split" between this year and last. It's tied at spot #7 (with the Gilded) for '05 thus far. Anyone else care to take a shot? -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

lark	03 Mar 2005
Forest Folklore?

Nina*	03 Mar 2005
DruidCraft???

Clau	03 Mar 2005
Well dear Jeanette, I won't guess because I don't have ANY idea about the best seller.. :) I just wanted to thank you for shifting the focus of this thread to something nicer and a lot more fun... I think this thread has enough ego trips already, and *please* I don't mean to start any discussion over again, but is it really THAT important to tell people what decks you like and why? I think is far more important to share what do you do with the decks you do like. And Retrokat....you're a wise woman. My hat goes off to you. And after all this writing I still don't have any clue es which one is the best seller! LOL care to enlighten us? Blessings to all, Clau

Jeannette	03 Mar 2005
Bingo, Lark! Well... half a bingo, anyway. Yes, I was very surprised when I saw the numbers, but indeed, the Forest Folklore deck is tied at #1 for our bestseller for 2005 thus far. Sharing the #1 spot is the Medieval Cats tarot. This shouldn't be too much of a shock in one sense, since there's always a sales surge for a new deck when first released -- at least, there is if the deck has been reasonably well publicized. However, there were just so many delays with the Forest Folklore (and Medieval Cats decks also, for that matter), and that never bodes well in the long term for sales. When the deck finally got here, we had a lot of of folks cancel their preorders, because they'd decided in the interim that they just didn't want it anymore, for a variety of reasons. But I did get a heavier-than-normal number of folks writing to say, "well, now that I've seen the scans, I simply just don't think I like the way it looks." So after all those cancellations, I figured the sales figures on the FF deck would be down much lower than they were. Guess as many people decided they did like it once they saw the scans as didn't. Ninamagic: sorry, Druidcraft not even on the radar at the moment, for the reasons stated in the "Comments" section of my original post. It's still not available here yet. Clau wrote: I just wanted to thank you for shifting the focus of this thread to something nicer and a lot more fun... Well, in all fairness, the name of the thread is "...Your Opinions?" So in a way, the earlier posts, as touchy as some may be, are simply following the intended theme, whereas my post is a little off-topic. I defend the inclusion of my original post here (to myself... no one has said it doesn't belong here, I know) on the grounds that buying a deck is perhaps a tacit form of expressing one's opinion. Although there's no guarantee that, as in contrascarpe's case, many of the decks purchased by one person weren't ultimately traded away to someone else. -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

WolfSpirit	03 Mar 2005
Celestial Tarot ? Oops not :D I see the competition is already over.

Jeannette	03 Mar 2005
WolfSpirit wrote: Celestial Tarot ? Oops not :D I see the competition is already over. 'Tis not a competition -- 'twas a general question to see if people's perceptions matched the "sales reality." In fact, the Celestial Tarot is in a 3-way tie for third (calculated from the standpoint that there is no "second place" bestseller, since the Forest Folklore and Medieval Cats are tied for first, thus taking the top two slots by default). In addition to the Celestial, the good ol' Vargo "Gothic" deck and the new Brotherhood Tarot by Patrick Stillman are at an equal "third place" sales level. So that covers the top five titles right there. This early in the year, there's bound to be some "clustering," since there hasn't been enough time for those destined to be the long-term sales champions to pull away from the pack. Actually, since I mentioned that the Housewives' and Gilded are tied at #7, folks are still welcome to take a guess a what's currently in slot #6. Or at positions #9 and #10, for that matter :D -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

lark	03 Mar 2005
Half a bingo is better than none! :D

MeeWah	03 Mar 2005
Jeannette: Thanks for the view from a retailer's perspective. As the subject of the thread *is* opinions, your comments not really off-topic & present a refreshing spin on the subject.

retrokat	03 Mar 2005
LB - I absolutely loved your mantra for deck creators. We should have it as a sticky on the Deck Creation section :D I'm so pleased that Housewives is doing so well - I absolutely love it and couldn't believe how heavily discounted it was on Amazon so I bought 4 copies to take to the Tarot Conference here in Australia in July with the Amazon Credits I'd got for Golden sales. But I may be biased - I'm not called retro-kat for nothing, I just love the 50's kitsch style. It's surprisingly readable too, and comes with the most gorgeous LWB I've ever seen. I haven't managed to get hold of all the other new decks mentioned yet, so can't begin to guess what else is doing well so far this year. I bet it's NOT Golden though as most people who like it would have bought their copy when it finally came out almost a year ago (after probably the worst delays for a tarot deck ever). Ciro - No offence taken. My point was more that people haven't said anything that offensive about my deck, so I think generally people DO have quite good manners, even if they don't like something. Although when I was a reasonably successful painter I got a lot more harsh criticism. Perhaps the the gallery scene is just far more bitchy than the enlightened and questing world of tarotists. Oh, and you tend to get a lot of inebriated wannabe-critics at gallery openings who are quite happy to tell you how c**p they think you are. I blame the free champagne. I developed a pretty thick skin through that period though. Am I floating off topic? :)

cirom	03 Mar 2005
retrokat wrote: Ciro - No offence taken. My point was more that people haven't said anything that offensive about my deck, so I think generally people DO have quite good manners, even if they don't like something. Dear Retrokat, Thank goodness for that, as I am truly an admirer of your deck. I also agree that most people really do have good manners in their critisism. Actually your comments about your earlier gallery days is similar to my current situation, as for fun, I participate in various South Florida art festivals, where little old ladies have no qualms in telling me to my face that no way would they have my creepy stuff hanging in their house. I used to bang them on the head when they said that but I kept getting arrested, so now I just laugh it off. Fortunately the teenage goths seem to like my stuff so....win some lose some.

Kissa	03 Jun 2005
Now, here we are, 4 months after i started this thread... To be honest, i started this infamous thread in the very spirit probably many of you felt during the big clash between Marseilles aficionados and RWS/Thoth fans... so full of myself and my new faith in the Truth of the Marseilles, i probably had to show off a bit, you know, the way a beginner will try too hard to be accepted by his peers... now with the distance, convinced that i can read with any tool provided i put enough of myself, enough sincerity and purity in the process, i don't give a damn about which deck is popular and why. provided it works for some of us, provided it gives some of us a better understanding of who we are and how we can do things better, everything goes. i am not ready though to read with toothsticks* but i guess (and hope) i'll be one day. for now, i still need the pretty pictures. finally i got fed up with my fellow marseillists because some of them were going on and on about what is the true marseilles, the same shit that was going on here. anyway, what i call the "intellectual masturbation" was just too much for me, i can't understand why we should shoot fellow tarotists, on the contrary, shouldn't we just be happy to see others enjoy Tarot too?? let there be diversity and mixing! still need to add i met some very nice ppl in the marseilles crowd though. they are not all wackos :P now back to my flaming comments to cirom's gilded tarot... the bottom line about this thread is that i sat in front of the computer and gave brutal and judgemental comments while DOING nothing else. that what still bugs me. it was like shouting at an athlete who wasn't running fast enough "GO ON YOU LAZY LOSER!" while i am sitting on my sofa eating chip potatoes. easier said than done. and that was very very unfair. maybe i will never get to like the gilded tarot (though i am willing to give it another try though, see Trading section) but i can only say that many ppl cannot be wrong. for the gilded fans out there who most probably felt attacked and mocked at by my comments on the deck, i want to apologize sincerely. if the gilded works for you, if you feel these cards help you understand your own mysteries, then they are the best cards in the world. no discussion about this. i know a bit better now, 4 months later, what i want from my cards, why i read tarot or at least, try to read tarot... for example, i think there is no perfect deck, there are brilliant decks that you can relate too more easily because of the artwork, the spirit/philosophy/faith, the intention of the creator etc. and you have to do work to get to know your cards, they don't just jump at you and reveal you the Mysteries right out of the box. and defintely, at least for any deck done with dedication and in the spirit of creating something unique and personal, all decks have something to bring to the tarot world. grown-up Kissa well a bit, at least * toothsticks are highly efficient tools, not only for cleaning teeth but also for divination, search for Umbrae's theory and thread(s?) about that... PS: i wish cirom the best of luck with his new unique concept the Tarot of Dreams. I am quite taken by his version of the Hierophant, renamed Faith and the appearence of the Fool character in the World has me very satisfied too. I am extremely curious about the whole concept and impatient to see how it gets accepted in the traditional cardboard deck world. I promise to behave myself if you guys vote the Tarot of Dreams Top Favourite Deck for 2005. :P

Fudugazi	03 Jun 2005
Kissa wrote: finally i got fed up with my fellow marseillists because some of them were going on and on about what is the true marseilles, the same shit that was going on here. anyway, what i call the "intellectual masturbation" was just too much for me, i can't understand why we should shoot fellow tarotists, on the contrary, shouldn't we just be happy to see others enjoy Tarot too?? let there be diversity and mixing! still need to add i met some very nice ppl in the marseilles crowd though. they are not all wackos :P I agree absolutely, let there be diversity. And let there be quality too, everywhere. But I am sad you chose to diss the intellectual masturbators to make your point. First you bang one type on the head, and then another. Surely diversity and acceptance involves no banging?....unless it be the DruidCraft Queen of Pentacle's drum? :)

Rusty Neon	03 Jun 2005
Kissa wrote: finally i got fed up with my fellow marseillists because some of them were going on and on about what is the true marseilles the same shit that was going on here. anyway, what i call the "intellectual masturbation" was just too much for me, i can't understand why we should shoot fellow tarotists, on the contrary, shouldn't we just be happy to see others enjoy Tarot too?? Amen to that. When I first joined ATF, I was so excited to see that there were others who shared my pre-existing interest in things Marseille and my pre-existing interest in the RWS and the Golden Dawn tradition. Alas, the type of Marseille postings that Kissa refers to above have certainly caused my interest in the Marseille deck to drop and my interest in the RWS to increase. How many times must we be proselytised to about how wonderful the Marseille deck is, about how the Marseille is the true tarot (while conveniently ignoring that there were contemporary, heterogenous cousins of the Marseille deck such as Viéville and the Tarot de Paris), and that the Rider-Waite tarot deck is not a true tarot deck, etc., etc. Heck, one time, I committed the sin of mentioning the Servants of the Light Fool card in a Marseille Fool thread. (By the way, there is no special magic to giving French as opposed to English names to the TdM cards when posting in English. Arguably, it would be more 'authentic' to use Italian names.) Quote: let there be diversity and mixing! still need to add i met some very nice ppl in the marseilles crowd though. they are not all wackos :P Agreed.

Alta	03 Jun 2005
That's okay Kissa. I sometimes look back at old posts of mine and shake my head and wonder "what was I thinking?' Just think how boring and bored we would all be if we didn't change. I am ashamed at one point I posted about how 'evil' the Thoth deck is. etcetera And so on. :) Best, Marion

Rusty Neon	03 Jun 2005
(delete)

cirom	03 Jun 2005
Re Kissa's message. That my dear friends is what I call class, and took a lot of courage. I am very appreciative. As for the reference to the Marsailles "devotees" I hear where Kissa is coming from. Enough already about which deck is superior, "why the Marsailles is unique threads", and the majority not understanding or studying the Marsailles enough and therefore not "appreciating it" it (see Marketing the Marsailles thread from a few months back). To read some of the postings on that thread, really does reek of tarot snobbery and elitism. Hey maybe some members have you know, jobs, kids.... a life. They may simply not have the time to study the academic nuances of hard to find find books written in French in order to better undersatnd some subtle symbolism on the Marsailles. Is'nt there enough division in this world? Muslim against Christian, nation against nation whatever against whatever. Do we really have to introduce sub divisions within our own tarot community as well? By all means discuss, compare, and prefer one deck or style to another, but surely that can be achieved without diminishing the other and by association the people who do happen to like the other. Yes Helvetica we can and should have Diversity, re read some of the posts on the threads I mentioned. The high brow intellectual aura was quite palbable. My word, first Kissa and now I've just read Rusty Neon (the most vocal critic of my work) comments and we're in agreement. Something wierd is obviously going here, I'm off to buy a lottery tickey quick before things go back to normal :-)

Fudugazi	03 Jun 2005
I am a highbrow intellectual at times. And at others I just enjoy myself with faeries, and the faeries thinks that's fun. I think accusing people for loving a deck and defending it - in an intellectual way if that's their thing - sucks as much as attacking an artist for creating a popular deck. I have no time for any kind of divisiveness, and less so for inverted intellectual snobbery. I started the Marketing the Marseille reading thread. I happen to think it was fun because it got people engaged in a fun way. It was one of the least intellectual of the Marseille threads. Actually the Marseille is not intellectual at all - it's everyman's deck, and easy to use without books because its speaks clearly and loudly. Most of the people on this board who read with it are English speakers and don't read French. And in any case, the French langage is not more intellectual than the English. This whole discussion - attacking first one group, then the other - is unfortunate. Praise for the Marseille is not a nail in the Gilded or any other deck (God forbid anyone touch my beloved Prague, Alchemical or DruidCraft).

Nina*	03 Jun 2005
You all say that we should allow diversity, and I totally agree; but calling people 'intellectual masturbators' and snobbish seems to me to be just that kind of banging that you claim not to want...

Kissa	03 Jun 2005
some of you have to re-read my new post. i said i got fed up with my fellow marseillists because some of them go on and on about what is the real marseilles. is it this one? that one? can a re-creation be faithful? why this re-creation is legitimate and not that one? etc. this goes ad vitam eternam, well thanks but not for me. first there is the clash between marseilles and golden dawn then the clash intramarseilles. my marseilles is better than yours. please. last time i write in here btw. sorry for the waves. thanks cirom for the nice words :) if you win the lottery, you owe me... kissa

Fudugazi	03 Jun 2005
.....and so divisiveness continues. Thank you Kissa. Nice gift.

Rusty Neon	03 Jun 2005
Kissa wrote: this goes ad vitam eternam, well thanks but not for me. first there is the clash between marseilles and golden dawn then the clash intramarseilles. my marseilles is better than yours. I agree. Even ultra-orthodox Marseille deck users need to appreciate that there is more that binds them to non-Marseille deck users, than divides them; and that there is more that binds them to fellow Marseille deck users than divides them. There's a whole world out there in the real world that doesn't care even a slight bit about tarot in any of its expressions. We also need to be conscious of trying to avoid intellectual one-up-manship on Marseille threads. I have, on more than one occasion, eagerly posted some quick thoughts on a Marseille card, only to find my post trashed for not living up to someone's high standards of scholarship. People post thoughts on non-Marseille cards without having to constantly be subject to "academic peer-review". Maybe there should be a Marseille 'Lite' subforum or designated threads where people can safely post their quick thoughts on Marseille cards. :)

Fudugazi	03 Jun 2005
Rusty Neon wrote: Maybe there should be a Marseille 'Lite' subforum or designated threads where people can safely post their quick thoughts on Marseille cards. :) They exist. They are called "Quick thoughts on..[name of card]" and "How to read..[name of card]", both started by our resident intellectual populariser, jmd. They are not in the least high-brow and the participants are all readers of different types of decks, including the Marseille, rather than scholars. Maybe they love the Marseille, too. That's allowed.

Rusty Neon	03 Jun 2005
Helvetica wrote: They are not in the least high-brow and the participants are all readers of different types of decks, including the Marseille, rather than scholars. Like this one? "8 Epees (Swords) - how may it be read?" http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=35255 And how welcoming/low-brow is the primacy given to French titles? Sort of like someone saying in English: "I went to Paris" and pronouncing it Paree.

Fudugazi	03 Jun 2005
Rusty Neon wrote: Like this one? "8 Epees (Swords) - how may it be read?" http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=35255 Wow, I never realised I was so clever! Thanks for telling me, Rusty :) This one is nice: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=35664 It's all about love, family, getting on. Acceptance in the wider family. Like AT, really. I realise French is a very unwelcoming language. It must be all the cheese we eat to masturbate our brains with. Ah, Kissa was right to swap it for Finnish.

Alta	03 Jun 2005
um, glad you are enjoying each other's company so much. :)

Rusty Neon	03 Jun 2005
Helvetica wrote: I realise French is a very unwelcoming language. It must be all the cheese we eat to masturbate our brains with. Ah, Kissa was right to swap it for Finnish. Um ... By the way, I do speak French quite well for someone who was raised in anglophone Canada. (I spoke with our Montreal ATFers in French while in Montreal.) And I do like speaking and hearing French. Your cutting remarks against your French language go too far afield; My point was merely: why use French titles in English posts when the cards have English equivalent names that have existed for well more than a century?

annik	03 Jun 2005
Yup, I must agree! Rusty was very good with his french. Sigh, now, if I could be as good in russian as he is good with french! I still mixing "drinking pizza" with "singing birds".

Rusty Neon	03 Jun 2005
annik wrote: Yup, I must agree! Rusty was very good with his french. Sigh, now, if I could be as good in russian as he is good with french! I still mixing "drinking pizza" with "singing birds". Merci, Annik. By the way, my Russian used to be better than my French is now, but sadly it has become "rouillé" (rusty). :( I once took a Russian course in French.

retrokat	03 Jun 2005
Hope this isn't too off-topic... About 2-3 yrs ago, when I was first asked to attend the Tarot Conference in Melbourne in 2005 (over a year before my deck even came out) I was very apprehensive. I knew how seriously people, including the some of the organisers, take their academic study of the Marseilles, and I felt like I'd seem like a bumbling lowbrow oaf in such company. I was especially worried because, apart from the long months when I was working full-time on creating the deck, tarot theory isn't really a huge part of my life. I guess that's partly because I have such an over-full life though, as I really enjoyed the researching I did, especially the general research on symbolism. Aaaaanyway, what I wanted to say is that I've found nothing but respect from even hard-core Marseilles devotees when I've come upon them in my dealings re the Conference etc. I haven't really felt to be on the receiving end of any snobbery throughout the whole process, despite the fact that I think deep down I felt I deserved a bit of that by being so... indiscriminate in my choice of sources for symbols for each card, following my own intuition rather than tarot tradition. Now, I'm really looking forward to the Conference. I don't think I'll be able to sit through a 2 hour lecture on nuances of the Marseilles without squirming and fidgeting enough to get kicked out, but I'm really looking forward to meeting the whole gamut of tarotists and getting to know them as people, not as a particular Tarot Type. I don't speak French either, but I'll have a go: vive la difference :)

Rusty Neon	03 Jun 2005
retrokat wrote: Aaaaanyway, what I wanted to say is that I've found nothing but respect from even hard-core Marseilles devotees when I've come upon them in my dealings re the Conference etc. I haven't really felt to be on the receiving end of any snobbery throughout the whole process, despite the fact that I think deep down I felt I deserved a bit of that by being so... indiscriminate in my choice of sources for symbols for each card, following my own intuition rather than tarot tradition. You're fortunate. As previously mentioned, I got dressed down for mentioning Servants of the Light deck Fool card symbolism in the context of a Marseille thread once. And people have gotten dressed down for using traditional tarotomancy/cartomancy meanings (corresponding to an RWS meaning) for Tarot de Marseille pip cards instead of number + suit + card design interpretation for the pip cards (which is a method of interpretation that hasn't had any recorded tradition in TdM tarot reading prior to around the middle third of the 20th century with the publishing of Paul Marteau's book. :(

retrokat	03 Jun 2005
True enough - context is everything. I wouldn't be brave/silly enough to even try posting in one of their threads. I figure that's where they go to revel in their Marseilleness and I wouldn't expect to be welcome there. I kinda feel like people should have the right to do what they like in the privacy of their homes as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else - and I'd be an outsider in the inner sanctum of a Marseilles bedroom. As long as when we meet on the street they don't try to convert me, I'm happy.

wizzle	03 Jun 2005
I do not see the purpose of reviving this revolting thread unless it is to cause renewed pain and agony and introduce newbies such as myself to the frey. If the purpose was to provide the initiator's revised opinions after wire-brushing excellent work, humble pie on page one, not page 14, is in order. Gosh, was that brutal and honest? Let me get out my red and green crayons and color someone's learning curve....flat, just flat.

Rusty Neon	03 Jun 2005
retrokat wrote: True enough - context is everything. I wouldn't be brave/silly enough to even try posting in one of their threads. I figure that's where they go to revel in their Marseilleness and I wouldn't expect to be welcome there. The problem is that there are no special safe-places for liberal-minded Marseillists in the Marseille subforums, free from ultraorthodox intellectual/pseudo-intellectual posturing. The ultra-orthodox seek to define Marseille-ness not only for themselves, but for others. (sigh)

Rusty Neon	03 Jun 2005
Helvetica wrote: .....and so divisiveness continues. Thank you Kissa. Nice gift. Helvetica ... A bigger thanks for your gift, in your posts of today. :) Kissa speaks for a considerable silent public.

MeeWah	03 Jun 2005
Kissa is honest in her opinions, however outspoken she may seem in some eyes. It takes class & courage to attempt to make amends; to eat humble pie. In this forum as in any other, we try to permit the freedom of speech as much as is possible without technically violating rules of basic courtesy & respect; without the off-topic or the asides with certain allowances made based on judgement calls. The underhanded or the below the belt maneuvers may appear to slip by, but we assure y'all, they are quite clear. In recognition & respect for those who have taken the time to post, this thread is to be left as it stands & is now closed.

The Top Ten 2004: your opinions? thread was originally posted on 23 Jan 2005 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.