Question for owners of the Hermetic Tarot.

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 Mar 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Tsuzuki	06 Mar 2005
How difficult would it be to get permission to make high resolution scans of the deck, and would any of you be willing to scan yours?

Jeannette	06 Mar 2005
My guess: very difficult. The Hermetic Tarot publication rights belong to US Games, and they are extremely protective of their decks (even if OOP), rarely grant reproduction rights, and are legally aggressive in pursuing what they consider to be any copyright infringements. I'd not be brave enough to step up and offer a full set of scans from the Hermetic deck, although we post six sample cards with the database listings on the Tarot Garden website for informational purposes, and will usually scan up to another six at 72 dpi upon request, if the scans are to be used for making a buying decision or for legitimate research purposes. -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

Tsuzuki	06 Mar 2005
Really? I thought I read that they were pretty generous in that regard, at least with the Waite-Smith deck, anyway. I know a couple of places that have gotten permission for high-res scans of that. Plus, it would essentially be free advertising if they ever get their rear ends in gear and reprint the damned thing. (You wouldn't happen to have a secret stash of them in an abandoned warehouse, would you?)

jmd	06 Mar 2005
The Waite Colman-Smith deck is not, as far as I am aware, copyrighted to USGames - only the name 'Rider-Waite' is.

Jeannette	06 Mar 2005
I understand about the issues revolving around the RWS deck. I'm just reporting from what I know from my own experience with US Games, which are based in large part on my personal conversations with Mr. Kaplan. I have the highest respect for USG and Mr. Kaplan; however, I also know from my communications with Mr. Kaplan and also other parties that many such requests for reproduction are routinely denied. Among those that I know have been granted, there have been licensing fees involved (and I'm not referring strictly to the RWS here), although it is certainly possible that there are instances of which I am unaware, where perrmission was requested and granted and licensing fees were not levied. It certainly doesn't hurt to ask, at any rate. But I was assuming Tsuzuki's inquiry was referring to a complete royalty-free reproduction. The status of the Hermetic deck copyright is, I suspect, probably much clearer than that of the RWS. -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

Tsuzuki	06 Mar 2005
I know they still claim copyright until 2014. In any event, I didn't think it would hurt to ask about Hermetic. Especially seeing as how it's out of print. And I'm not talking about reproduction quality. Just enough to study it, and see all the symbolism.

Jeannette	06 Mar 2005
To ask official permission from USG, here's the link to the .pdf file of the request form: http://www.usgamesinc.com/newstore/layout/pages/US/info/TarotReproductionAuthForm.pdf -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

Tsuzuki	06 Mar 2005
Thanks! *has never done this before* ^^;;

fyreflye	06 Mar 2005
Tsuzuki wrote: I know they still claim copyright until 2014. In any event, I didn't think it would hurt to ask about Hermetic. Especially seeing as how it's out of print. And I'm not talking about reproduction quality. Just enough to study it, and see all the symbolism. It would probably be cheaper to buy one on eBay (though the last one I saw there went for over $100) or ask Jeannette to track down a used copy for you than to pay what U S Games would likely charge for licensing. Reproduction quality is important - the Hermetic is full of minute details crucial to its interpretation. And no, I'm not selling mine ;)

Rusty Neon	06 Mar 2005
Tsuzuki wrote: would any of you be willing to scan yours? Scans of the 78 cards of the Hermetic Tarot deck (Dowson) at this link by following the links: http://www.bluecatsden.com/bluecat1.html Click on the images to enlarge. However, these are probably not high-resolution enough.

Tsuzuki	06 Mar 2005
Yeah, I saw that, but I can barely make out the details with those. ^^;; fyreflye wrote: It would probably be cheaper to buy one on eBay (though the last one I saw there went for over $100) or ask Jeannette to track down a used copy for you than to pay what U S Games would likely charge for licensing. Reproduction quality is important - the Hermetic is full of minute details crucial to its interpretation. And no, I'm not selling mine ;) Actually, with what I have in mind, it should fall under "Free Tarot education", which is free of charge with attribution. That is, if they approve it. Of course, what we really need is for them to reprint it.

Rusty Neon	06 Mar 2005
I can't figure out why U.S. Games isn't reprinting the Hermetic deck although apparently it's been under consideration by them. After all, they did reprint the Egipcios Kier (which, unfortunately, subsequently went out of print again within a year or two of the reprinting). A bad experience or a good experience for them? I think they need a minimum 5000 decks for a print run. If they are informed of the bidding wars on eBay for the Hermetic deck, they may be convinced.

Jeannette	06 Mar 2005
Keeping in mind that the deck we're discussing here was published by U.S. Games, here's my response to a similar thread on the Greenwood: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=335410#post335410 (The situation was a bit different there, since someone was talking about contacting USG about a non-USG deck... but much of the commentary is still relevant to this thread, I think.) -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

Tsuzuki	06 Mar 2005
Would it be possible for them to do a limited edition preorder only print run? Several years ago, the anime publisher, Animeigo, wanted to release the Kimagure Orange Road TV series in the US. They knew they didn't have all the resources to do this normally, so they made a preorder sign up list along with a projected price. As more people signed up, the price dropped, and the people who signed up earlier were refunded the difference. This method was a huge success, and they later repeated it with other titles. I'm thinking that this method would be even easier with U.S. Games, as they already own the copyright and don't have to deal with foreign licensing issues.

Jeannette	06 Mar 2005
It's not USG's usual method of doing business. But what could it hurt to ask? -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

Tsuzuki	06 Mar 2005
Hmm... You mentioned that you knew Stuart Kaplan? *hint hint*

Jeannette	06 Mar 2005
Not well enough for him to do me any favors of that magnitude. But for what it's worth, I've mentioned what I've seen of the demand for the Hermetic Tarot on the secondary market some time ago. Since no Hermetic reprinting has hit the shelves, I think that pretty much sums up the level of influence I've got at USG. :laugh: I just feel lucky to have an occasional track on some of the inside info regarding their products. -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

Tsuzuki	06 Mar 2005
Do you think that you'd be in a position to pitch a preorder idea? 'Cause I'm certainly not. ^^;;

Jeannette	07 Mar 2005
Probably not -- or not successfully, anyway. I'm not much of a "pitch" person. But I've got to write to Bobbie this week (Mr. Kaplan's personal assistant), so I'll add the info re: the preorder approach into that message. -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

Tsuzuki	07 Mar 2005
Thank you! <3 And I'll ask about hosting high-resolution scans on my site. If either of these ettempts work, I'd like to start a study group here.

Lillie	09 Mar 2005
I got a Hermetic yesterday. A wonderful friend bought it for me as a gift. Can you believe it? How amazing is that? This is one incredible person! Such a detailed deck! So much there, on every card. I had been looking at the scans on 'Blue cat's den', but as has been said before, they really are not good enough to see everything. (but better than nothing, and no criticism intended of Mr (or Ms) Bluecat, who has done a great thing putting them up for everyone to see.) And I haveso many questions? Why this symbol? whay that? The LWB just isn't good enough. Has there been a book written specifically for this deck? I know that it is pretty much done in the Golden dawn tradition, using their symbols etc. So a golden dawn book should cover the most of it. However, I have failed to find a suitable GD book either. Suggestions on a post card to.... Lillie!

fyreflye	09 Mar 2005
Lillie wrote: I got a Hermetic yesterday. Such a detailed deck! So much there, on every card. And I haveso many questions? Why this symbol? whay that? The LWB just isn't good enough. Has there been a book written specifically for this deck? I know that it is pretty much done in the Golden dawn tradition, using their symbols etc. So a golden dawn book should cover the most of it. However, I have failed to find a suitable GD book either. This deck follows Book T more closely than any other in print, even Wang's. Look closely at every card; use a magnifying glass. Compare the stances of The Magican, The Heirophant and The Devil. All the GD symbolism is there; you just have to look and learn it. If you wander from deck to deck and book to book you will wander forever.

Lillie	09 Mar 2005
wanderings good though. If you wander you get to see things. :) The thing is, even when I look close (and I am one of those short sighted people who can see the most incredible detail up close) I don't always know what something is. Examples of what I mean. The Foolishman. 2 flowers. both different. Are they the usual rose and lily? or are they something else? The croc. I can see it, but what does it mean? The Magician. He's got a wand in his right hand, but what is that in his left? I can see it, but I don't know what it is. The hebrew words under him. I can't read hebrew, I don't know anyone who can. What does it mean? and/or does it add up to something significant? I can look at it all day and be none the wiser. I am curious about a lot of decks, but occult decks in particular. and I find that what I learn about one can illuminate another. Never the less, I have never been able to find all the answers to all my questions in any book. And if I cannot find the answers from a book, or off a web site, or if someone tells me, then I can guess all I like, but never know for sure. (not that all web sites, people or even books can be entirely trusted)

fyreflye	09 Mar 2005
Lillie wrote: wanderings good though. If you wander you get to see things. :) Not necessarily. Sometimes we wander to avoid seeing things. Quote: The thing is, even when I look close (and I am one of those short sighted people who can see the most incredible detail up close) I don't always know what something is. Examples of what I mean. The Foolishman. 2 flowers. both different. Are they the usual rose and lily? or are they something else? The croc. I can see it, but what does it mean? The Magician. He's got a wand in his right hand, but what is that in his left? I can see it, but I don't know what it is. The hebrew words under him. I can't read hebrew, I don't know anyone who can. What does it mean? and/or does it add up to something significant? I can look at it all day and be none the wiser. I am curious about a lot of decks, but occult decks in particular. and I find that what I learn about one can illuminate another. Never the less, I have never been able to find all the answers to all my questions in any book. And if I cannot find the answers from a book, or off a web site, or if someone tells me, then I can guess all I like, but never know for sure. (not that all web sites, people or even books can be entirely trusted) Symbols are symbols because they express something that can't be expressed any other way. You cannot explain a symbol, but you can become so familiar with it that when it speaks to you in a particular moment in its own language you will understand its meaning for that moment. A book can only make generalizations. You could have every symbol on the Foolish Man card explained to you in detail but in the end you would understand no more about the Foolish Man than you did before. You have to study the languages of form, of color, of astrology and more before cards like these can speak to you. Words may suggest a direction to follow; if you've read The Book of Thoth five or six times it may have helped a little towards understanding Crowley's, and even Dowson's, tarot. But if you're looking to be told that x = y you will be disappointed; though Llewellyn will undoubtedly publish a book by a famous occultist telling you that x = y and you may be persuaded to believe it. But believing the words of someone who makes his living writing books for Llewellyn is not the same as coming to understand the language of tarot. Many here have scoffed at all this symbol mongering and have proceeded to read these decks "intuitively;" and if they convince themselves and others that they can do that, who's to disagree? Perhaps that's what you need to do yourself. But Mathers and Crowley and their successors did not design their decks so that we could find out if we'd get that good job or if our boyfriend would come back. They designed them to enlarge our perception of reality. That takes more inner work, not more books.

Lillie	09 Mar 2005
I draw a distinction. I 'read' tarot cards, and I do it in a way that I think would probably be called 'intuitively' (though I never heard that word for it till I came here). Effectively I just make it up as I go along. It is the only way to do it (for me) and I have done it like this for many years. However, that is a totally seperate thing from my study of the cards, and my studies of occult/esoteric things in general. These studies have, eventually,brought me round full circle back to where I started, the Tarot. I want to know what Dowson/Crowley/Wang whoever meant when they usedcertain symbols. I want to know why they used them. I don't want to be told what x means, I know what it means to me, it will mean different things to different people. I want to know what x meant to them when they used it. and why they chose to use x and not q. My thinking is that by doing so I will comprehend better their concept of the Tarot as an esoteric journey of enlightenment/illumination. I want to understand how they related the cards to the kabalah, to gematria, to all that stuff. Each persons tarot is a book of symbols that they have 'written'. To read that book I need to be able to understand the language they used. Wether I agree with them or not is immaterial. But until I know what they are saying I cannot even begin to judge. I will never practice their magick (I practice my own), or see their world through their eyes. Their eyes, and their world is long gone. I am just interested. They had all this fascinating knowledge, this whole system of things that they encoded into their decks. I would like to be able to read these codes, and see clearly what they are saying there. And wether this has any effect on my ability to read tarot cards (either for better or worse) is also immaterial. For me that is actually a whole different thing, albeit using the same basic tools. And yes, of course I wander to avoid seeing things. But other people stay in te same place to do that too.

NightWing	10 Mar 2005
I find I have to approach my Hermetic Tarot deck very slowly. Perhaps I'm the one who is slow, but there is so much detail, that it takes me quite awhile to even begin to absorb it. But what is the rush, after all? One picks up a bit of useful information here, another there, and with time (and sustained effort) comes a greater degree of understanding. So my advice is to simply take your time. Tarot is, or can/should be a lifetime study and practice. For the record, I too hope for another printing of the Hermetic, as I would get several "back-up" decks. I think the idea of a subscription printing has merit. Perhaps Mr. Kaplan will think so too!

Lillie	10 Mar 2005
Yes, A lifetimes study. Indeed, it has already had more than half of mine. I too pick up a bit here and a bit there. It's the way I work. But I'll only have one reading deck, that's the Thoth. a green one. Other decks are sometimes pretty and sometimes interesting. Some are for study. The Hermetic is the latter, and I will study it in the way that works for me. I was just wondering if Mr Dowson had written a book that would explain his rather dense and complex symbolism in greater detail than the LWB. I don't have the money to buy random books just on the off chance. Who was he, by the way? Mr Dowson? Anyone know?

Tsuzuki	12 Mar 2005
Here we go. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19271&item=5564683378&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW *sigh*

Rusty Neon	12 Mar 2005
Lillie wrote: The Hermetic is the latter, and I will study it in the way that works for me. I was just wondering if Mr Dowson had written a book that would explain his rather dense and complex symbolism in greater detail than the LWB. I don't have the money to buy random books just on the off chance. Since the deck is intended to illustrate the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn's manuscript _Book T_, that manuscript and other GD materials should be useful for this deck.

Lillie	13 Mar 2005
Thanks Rusty. That's pretty much what I suspected. But then I was told I was reading too many books and looking at too many decks! How can there be too many of either? Are you bidding Tsuzuki? I've seen quite a few come up recently so you should be able to get one. Though they can get quite pricey. Good luck if you are.

Tsuzuki	13 Mar 2005
I would, but I'm on a student's budget. Anything above $50 is completely out of my league.

Jeannette	18 Mar 2005
I just got a message back from USG. The reply was that if they could get approximately 3,000 prepaid orders (at $18 each), they'd be happy to reprint. Wanna start the signup list? -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

Xarokys	19 Mar 2005
I've already got one but I'd really like a spare or two because it's such a great deck.

Tsuzuki	19 Mar 2005
Jeannette wrote: I just got a message back from USG. The reply was that if they could get approximately 3,000 prepaid orders (at $18 each), they'd be happy to reprint. Wanna start the signup list? -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rusty Neon	19 Mar 2005
Thanks for following up on this, Jeannette! :) I'd be willing to pre-pay --- as long as the payment wouldn't be held in suspense (before refund) too long.

Jeannette	19 Mar 2005
I don't think Bobbie at USG (Mr. Kaplan's personal assistant) actually expected that such a thing could ever happen (i.e., 3,000 paid preorders). USG has no mechanism in place for taking prepaid reservations for a deck that ultimately might never be printed. If it were to happen, it would have to be through a "grass roots" effort in the tarot community. At which point, you'd have to find someone trustworthy to coordinate the arrangements, and then just cross your fingers that all could be handled before the whole of the preorder list was ready to start collecting their pensions. In brief, there's no guarantees that should such a list be organized, that one would see either the Hermetic deck or a refund appear in a timely manner. -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

Tsuzuki	19 Mar 2005
I say we start a petition for them to start taking prepaid reservations. :P

Rusty Neon	15 Apr 2005
Tsuzuki wrote: Yeah, I saw that, but I can barely make out the details with those. ^^;; There are larger scans of the Hermetic deck's cards here: http://trionfi.com/0/s/b/ Once you find the deck and pick a card, you will see the scan. You can make the window bigger by moving by the window frames.

Tsuzuki	15 Apr 2005
Thank you, but I already bought one on ebay. (Though it came without the booklet.) When this semester is over with, I'm going to send off the permission request, and if permitted, host gigantic scans on my site.

The Question for owners of the Hermetic Tarot. thread was originally posted on 06 Mar 2005 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.