To Haindl or Not to Haindl

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Mar 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Namaste	27 Mar 2005
I just received this deck as a present and, looking through the cards, wasn’t quite sure I would be able to connect with them. This was until I did the ‘New Deck’ three card spread with them. I was amazed and have decided that they are supposed to be mine, after all. This is how it went: 1. What will you give me? Daughter of Stones Love, courage and dedication. You will show me the inner beauty of everything. 2. What do you want in return? Ace of Wands Confidence in me and an optimistic outlook. I want you to be open to new beginnings through and with me. 3. What will our relationship be like? VI The Lovers (my card, according to Numerology) A relationship built on mutual love. Intuitively, what I get from these cards is that they are very human and humane, if you understand my meaning. Am I the only one who had this reaction to these cards, but then had to revise it? :)

contrascarpe	27 Mar 2005
I bought this deck originally because I loved the artwork. When I went through the cards, I thought the same - how the heck will I read with these? I must confess that I don't use this deck very often, but when I do, I get very deep readings, and it is one of my favorites. You may want to check out the two books Rachael Pollock wrote for this deck - one each for the minors and majors. I also picked up the Haindle Rune Oracle last month. I am starting to develop an interest in runes, and I thought this would be a good tool to help me learn. However, the artwork again blew me away and made me realize that I could do some good work with this deck as well. Enjoy your Haindl - I am sure you will love it for a long time. Dan

Milfoil	27 Mar 2005
contrascarpe wrote: I bought this deck originally because I loved the artwork. When I went through the cards, I thought the same - how the heck will I read with these? I've only just got my deck (2 days ago) and I feel the same way. It was sort of an impulse buy, I saw the images, read a review, and just did it! No real idea why! Now that I have it - I'm not sure what to do with it . . . its so different! I feel profoundly drawn towards this deck and completely overpowered by it at the same time. I guess I'm just a coward!

Kissa	28 Mar 2005
I felt the same as you guys describe. It helped a great deal when I read that gardener trimmed the Haindl deck. Read here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=31217&page=13&pp=10&highlight=trim There are some pictures of the trimmed Haindl as well. It makes agreat difference imho and the deck gest suddenly more colourful and "reachable". I still think you need the books if you want to get the most of this deck. (I am refering to Rachel Pollack's books or book since the two tomes, originally printed separately, have been melted into one volume). Haindl's deck must be ohne of the greatest and yet sooo underrated deck around... My two cents... Kissa

SunChariot	28 Mar 2005
I think I have the advantage of having the Haindl be my first deck. It was the deck I learnt on. So for me it was what the heck do you do with Tarot cards, period, not just the deck. LOL I still love the deck though. And yes it gives deep readings, although I find all my decks do as I love the complex artwork. I love the I-Chings. I find them always very accurate. And yes Namaste, I know just what you mean. Each deck has it's own personality and this deck seems very humane to me too. Which is something I love about it. It seems to encourage us to appreciate the environment more and to take steps to protect it. It is definitely a deck with a strong social conscience. I find it my most "unselfish" deck. It seems the deck that most often encourages me to put the needs of the majority above my own. Not that I go around being selfish or anything, but this message seems to be built into many of the cards. Bar

Gardener	29 Mar 2005
Hi all Haindl explorers. I love the artwork of this deck, I think it is a delight just to wander through the images. But I don't read with it much because the unillustrated pips confuse me. Which is strange, because I'll read with unillustrated pips in other decks, but I get nothing from these. The objects just hang in front of those desolate ambiguous landscapes and I don't know what to do with them. The courts, on the other hand, are wonderful. They are like history and mythology lessons. We did start up a study group, which people are eagerly invited to explore: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=34250 However, as you will see, we weren't really sure how to discuss these cards, perhaps because each is so complex. Haindl and Pollack gave us almost too much to work with! The majors are definitely the best. They are more closely tied to the tarot tradition than the courts, and the images are stunning. Full of symbolism that speaks volumes in a reading. It's a dilemma of a deck. I think the most fun I had with it so far was trimming the edges, because it gave me an opportunity to spend a little time with each card. Nice visits! If anyone starts a new thread on a new card for the Study Group, please let me know and I'll add it to the Index thread.

IDN	29 Mar 2005
Hi, Another Haindl fan signing in! I bought the Haindl about 3 weeks ago. I felt drawn to it after seeing the on-line images and reading various reviews. I promptly bought Pollack's "Reader's Handbook", which I am going through slowly. Like others have said, I would recommend getting the book if you plan on studying these cards. It's certainly a fascinating deck. For me. it's a labour of Love. I am in no hurry to learn it. I am drawing a card each night and thinking about it as I go to sleep. I am planning on doing this for the next year or two. I am letting the images embed themselves deep into my subconscious. I feel that this deck is very deep and will only really start to reward when you have put a lot of effort into it. I think I am one of the few who actually likes the suit of Stones! I don't find them boring. I would love to hear from experienced Hainl readers. Regards, Ian

SunChariot	29 Mar 2005
IDN wrote: I think I am one of the few who actually likes the suit of Stones! I don't find them boring. I would love to hear from experienced Hainl readers. Regards, Ian Chalk me up as another reader who likes the suit of Stones. I actually I love that about the deck. I prefer it to any other name for the suit I have come across so far. This is one more way the deck points out the importance of our planet and ecology. And that richness is not just related to work and money as the suit can be in other decks. But it also has to do with the richness of our life experiences, of which so many are tied in with nature and our connection to the universe. To me anyway, that is what having a "rich" life should be about.:-) As I said it was my first deck, and it is almost our first anniversary. LOL I got it in May/04. Bar

SunChariot	29 Mar 2005
Gardener wrote: Hi all Haindl explorers. I love the artwork of this deck, I think it is a delight just to wander through the images. But I don't read with it much because the unillustrated pips confuse me. Which is strange, because I'll read with unillustrated pips in other decks, but I get nothing from these. The objects just hang in front of those desolate ambiguous landscapes and I don't know what to do with them. The courts, on the other hand, are wonderful. They are like history and mythology lessons. In case this helps, and I hope I can explain this well, I tend to analyse the pips the same was as I do any Tarot card. Just look at the artwork, feel it, see it in all it's parts (colours, shapes, symbolism...) and what I feel they mean to the reading. The pips do have images of course. They are not unillustrated, although they are more subtle. Eg, and don't everyone all start laughing at once, :-), in the Eight of Stones, in the center of the tree there is like an oval hole. Whenever I see it it looks like a navel to me, which seems to remind me of birth...Which gets me thinking what needs to be born before Knowledge can take place....which of course may change depending upon the situation. Of course I do consider the book meaning also, at the end. Hope that helps... Bar

Namaste	30 Mar 2005
contrascarpe wrote: You may want to check out the two books Rachael Pollock wrote for this deck - one each for the minors and majors. I also picked up the Haindle Rune Oracle last month. I am starting to develop an interest in runes, and I thought this would be a good tool to help me learn. However, the artwork again blew me away and made me realize that I could do some good work with this deck as well. Enjoy your Haindl - I am sure you will love it for a long time. Thank you, Dan. :) I will try to get the two volume set. I think the Haindl really deserves some study.

Namaste	30 Mar 2005
Milfoil wrote: I've only just got my deck (2 days ago) and I feel the same way. It was sort of an impulse buy, I saw the images, read a review, and just did it! No real idea why! Now that I have it - I'm not sure what to do with it . . . its so different! I feel profoundly drawn towards this deck and completely overpowered by it at the same time. I guess I'm just a coward! Impulse is good. It happens to me all the time, and I have never had cause to regret it. :)

Namaste	30 Mar 2005
SunChariot wrote: I think I have the advantage of having the Haindl be my first deck. It was the deck I learnt on. So for me it was what the heck do you do with Tarot cards, period, not just the deck. LOL I still love the deck though. And yes it gives deep readings, although I find all my decks do as I love the complex artwork. I love the I-Chings. I find them always very accurate. And yes Namaste, I know just what you mean. Each deck has it's own personality and this deck seems very humane to me too. Which is something I love about it. It seems to encourage us to appreciate the environment more and to take steps to protect it. It is definitely a deck with a strong social conscience. I find it my most "unselfish" deck. It seems the deck that most often encourages me to put the needs of the majority above my own. Not that I go around being selfish or anything, but this message seems to be built into many of the cards. Very interesting observations, Bar. I have come to believe that when it comes to the tarot in general, one should acquaint oneself with the system used for each deck, as opposed to wanting to refer to traditional RWS definitions and see how they apply (or more often, don't apply) to the deck in question. I have always found it difficult to learn "specific keywords" that are supposed to apply to all tarot cards, when I have found that they don't apply. (Am I making any sense?) What you say about the Haindl's social conscience is so true! One of us wrote that this deck has a distinctly shamanistic feel to it. I didn't realize that whan I first picked up the cards, but from looking at them repeatedly, I have to agree with that person. I also read that Haindl had created this deck as a sort of atonement for the Holocaust (and the collective consciousness that engendered it and sanctioned it). This may be one of the reasons it is so full of compassion. Just a thought...

Namaste	30 Mar 2005
Gardener wrote: Hi all Haindl explorers. We did start up a study group, which people are eagerly invited to explore: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=34250 However, as you will see, we weren't really sure how to discuss these cards, perhaps because each is so complex. Haindl and Pollack gave us almost too much to work with! The majors are definitely the best. They are more closely tied to the tarot tradition than the courts, and the images are stunning. Full of symbolism that speaks volumes in a reading. It's a dilemma of a deck. I think the most fun I had with it so far was trimming the edges, because it gave me an opportunity to spend a little time with each card. Nice visits! I think the continuation of the Haindl study is definitely a must. I'm always pressed for time, but when I get Pollack's books, I intend to explore the cards. I usually prefer images to pips, but with this two volume set, I think these minors will come alive. I know that I am already touched by the two of Cups, not to speak of some of the majors. The deck is perplexing, but interestingly so, since there might be more controversy in the interpretation of its contents that way. Am I the only one, or do others wish they could sit down and speak with the authors of many of these incredible decks?

Namaste	30 Mar 2005
IDN wrote: Hi, For me. it's a labour of Love. I am in no hurry to learn it. I am drawing a card each night and thinking about it as I go to sleep. I am planning on doing this for the next year or two. I am letting the images embed themselves deep into my subconscious. I feel that this deck is very deep and will only really start to reward when you have put a lot of effort into it. I think I am one of the few who actually likes the suit of Stones! I don't find them boring. I would love to hear from experienced Hainl readers. I'm obviously not an experienced Haindl reader, but I don't find the suit of Stones boring, either. I'm not in any hurry about any of my decks. I like to work with them simultaneously. It may take me longer, but I feel that I'm developing a deeper, more rounded understanding of each card that way. I'm thinking, in fact, to take my 10 favourite decks, and start a comparative chart for each card. It will probably take me a long time, but I wonder if it isn't worth doing. :)

Namaste	30 Mar 2005
SunChariot wrote: Chalk me up as another reader who likes the suit of Stones. I actually I love that about the deck. I prefer it to any other name for the suit I have come across so far. This is one more way the deck points out the importance of our planet and ecology. And that richness is not just related to work and money as the suit can be in other decks. But it also has to do with the richness of our life experiences, of which so many are tied in with nature and our connection to the universe. To me anyway, that is what having a "rich" life should be about.:-) As I said it was my first deck, and it is almost our first anniversary. LOL I got it in May/04. Bar In total agreement with you, Bar. :) Happy anniversary!

Namaste	30 Mar 2005
SunChariot wrote: In case this helps, and I hope I can explain this well, I tend to analyse the pips the same was as I do any Tarot card. Just look at the artwork, feel it, see it in all it's parts (colours, shapes, symbolism...) and what I feel they mean to the reading. Great approach. Quote: Eg, and don't everyone all start laughing at once, :-), in the Eight of Stones, in the center of the tree there is like an oval hole. Whenever I see it it looks like a navel to me, which seems to remind me of birth...Which gets me thinking what needs to be born before Knowledge can take place....which of course may change depending upon the situation. "....what needs to be born before Knowledge can take place..." Great food for thought, SunChariot. A reminder that knowledge is nothing without a conscience? That it's alright to intellectualize, but that there are things that can't be rationalized and must be experienced (the purpose of Zen koans, for example)? Especially life? Don't everyone start laughing at me either, but when I look at the Empress of the Margarete Petersen tarot, for example, I see not only a huge womb, but a dilated vagina (sorry if the image is too graphic), remeniscent of the act of giving birth. Book meanings are great for guidance, but our own intuition and insights are just as important, if not more so.

SunChariot	30 Mar 2005
I'm with Dan on that. :-) I originally bought the one volume Rachel Pollack book, when a friend suggested the two volume set. I went out and ordered it later, and it was well worth it, It really gives you a much deeper insight into the deck. Bar

Milfoil	31 Mar 2005
2 volumes it is then . . . Thanks :)

Namaste	31 Mar 2005
I'm going for the two volumes, too. Thanks, everyone!

Frank Hall	31 Mar 2005
Namaste wrote: Great approach. A reminder that knowledge is nothing without a conscience? That it's alright to intellectualize, but that there are things that can't be rationalized and must be experienced (the purpose of Zen koans, for example)? Especially life? Book meanings are great for guidance, but our own intuition and insights are just as important, if not more so. Definitely! I"ve been reading several recently published books - all good ones- about Thoth Tarot( Understanding..., by DuQuette), Medieval Scapini (Art and Arcana, by Decker), Marseilles (Mystical Origins, by Huson), and Marseilles and Waite-Smith (The Tarot, by Place). But now, along with insights gathered, the task remains: What do I see and what do I not see? What do they see and what do they not see? As to Haindl, Rachel Pollack's books are excellent observations and meditations, leading us into taking our own leads.

Namaste	31 Mar 2005
Frank Hall wrote: Definitely! I"ve been reading several recently published books - all good ones- about Thoth Tarot( Understanding..., by DuQuette), Medieval Scapini (Art and Arcana, by Decker), Marseilles (Mystical Origins, by Huson), and Marseilles and Waite-Smith (The Tarot, by Place). But now, along with insights gathered, the task remains: What do I see and what do I not see? What do they see and what do they not see? As to Haindl, Rachel Pollack's books are excellent observations and meditations, leading us into taking our own leads. Absolutely, Frank Hall! Especially, since I really think that each deck's respective system differs. I think I mentioned before that I find it difficult to learn one definition of a each card and try to apply it to all decks. That has never worked for me. It means more time and effort, but, in my case, well worth the undertaking. :)

SunChariot	31 Mar 2005
Namaste wrote: Great approach. "....what needs to be born before Knowledge can take place..." Great food for thought, SunChariot. A reminder that knowledge is nothing without a conscience? That it's alright to intellectualize, but that there are things that can't be rationalized and must be experienced (the purpose of Zen koans, for example)? Especially life? Don't everyone start laughing at me either, but when I look at the Empress of the Margarete Petersen tarot, for example, I see not only a huge womb, but a dilated vagina (sorry if the image is too graphic), remeniscent of the act of giving birth. Book meanings are great for guidance, but our own intuition and insights are just as important, if not more so. I don't know your deck: the Margarete Petersen one. But I promise I am not laughing. We all receive messages from the universe in our cards in our own ways. I think that is part of the beauty of Tarot. And I think there is something sacred in it when the universe sends you a message you need, in the way you need to see it. I hope I don't start a riot here, as I know there are many who disagree....But for me when we are contemplating a Tarot card in a spread and/or the entire spread, our intuition, feelings and insight are much more important than the book meanings. I never memorize key words or meanings for any card. I tried when I started, but it didn't work for me. I do read the book for a deck before I will do a reading with it, though. But then I put the info in the back of my mind and go. I started with the Haindl, and I was taking an online course that sent us different cards every week to learn their meanings. It did not take me long to see that the proposed meanings for the pips they wanted me to learn had almost nothing to do with teh Haindl pips. And I stopped there. I have 9 decks now, and in most the meanings are very very different. Unless I wanted to learn by heart the meanings of 78 cards times 9 (that makes 702 cards+). To me the card's meanings are very fluid, I analyse them in their parts like poetry. The colour blue in the background means this, the circle about a character's head means that....And the symbols never mean the same thing twice. Depending on my mood, the question asked. The colour blue can mean sadness in one reading, and just as easily mean the joy and happiness of a summer day with a nice blue sky in another. It's about intuition. And feeling what it means today. The cirlce over a character's head...could be a halo one day, another day it could remind me of completion, perhaps the completion of a thought process... I find this amazing the unlimited meaning each card can hold...It's like each card is really 100 cards and more in one. I have been amazed often when the same card comes up in one reading after another, with very very differnet meanings, but each completely relevant and useful to the question asked. I do read the book meanings afterwards and add in any relevant info, but it is for me the least important part. Bar

muteswan	01 Apr 2005
This deck is definitely one I've been interested in, looked at a lot, but never bought. I usually don't like watery visuals, but this one really works.

Namaste	01 Apr 2005
SunChariot wrote: I don't know your deck: the Margarete Petersen one. But I promise I am not laughing. We all receive messages from the universe in our cards in our own ways. I think that is part of the beauty of Tarot. And I think there is something sacred in it when the universe sends you a message you need, in the way you need to see it. I think you would find this deck very interesting. It has been, in my experience, the deck that speaks the most intuitively. When I saw the images online for the first time: http://www.lapalmagaleria.info/arte/matrix.php3?basis=tarot&lang= I couldn't believe the amount of things I was seeing. Quote: I hope I don't start a riot here, as I know there are many who disagree....But for me when we are contemplating a Tarot card in a spread and/or the entire spread, our intuition, feelings and insight are much more important than the book meanings. I agree with you completely. Quote: I never memorize key words or meanings for any card. I tried when I started, but it didn't work for me. I do read the book for a deck before I will do a reading with it, though. But then I put the info in the back of my mind and go. I have been through the same thing and apply the same method. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one. Quote: I have 9 decks now, and in most the meanings are very very different. Unless I wanted to learn by heart the meanings of 78 cards times 9 (that makes 702 cards+). I have 31 now, and I couldn't agree more. The meanings are sometimes related, but mostly very different. Let me rephrase that. They are like facets of a same diamond. Quote: To me the card's meanings are very fluid, Very well put. :) Quote: I analyse them in their parts like poetry. The colour blue in the background means this, the circle about a character's head means that....And the symbols never mean the same thing twice. Depending on my mood, the question asked. The colour blue can mean sadness in one reading, and just as easily mean the joy and happiness of a summer day with a nice blue sky in another. It's about intuition. And feeling what it means today. The cirlce over a character's head...could be a halo one day, another day it could remind me of completion, perhaps the completion of a thought process... Yes... I've also decided to really acquaint myself with the world of symbols, so that I can let my intuition loose in that playground. Quote: I find this amazing the unlimited meaning each card can hold...It's like each card is really 100 cards and more in one. I have been amazed often when the same card comes up in one reading after another, with very very differnet meanings, but each completely relevant and useful to the question asked. My own experience corroborates the veracity of your own experience. It depens so much on each individual reading. Quote: I do read the book meanings afterwards and add in any relevant info, but it is for me the least important part. Likewise! It's great to find another of like mind. Thank you for sharing this, Bar. :)

Namaste	04 Apr 2005
Than you all who suggested that I buy the two Pollack books for this deck. They are amazing. I have started on the Fool, and am pleased to report that the explanations and interpretations Rachel gives form a wonderful spring-board. I see it all and then some.:)

MercyMe	04 Apr 2005
How can I find out what the I Ching symbols mean? Is there a reference somewhere? I don't have the books yet, but I am intensely curious about those symbols. ~Mercy

SunChariot	04 Apr 2005
Namaste wrote: Than you all who suggested that I buy the two Pollack books for this deck. They are amazing. I have started on the Fool, and am pleased to report that the explanations and interpretations Rachel gives form a wonderful spring-board. I see it all and then some.:) Same thing happened to me when I started. I just bought the one book. Everyone kept suggesting I get the two books instead. I finally listened, and never regretted it. :-) It has all turned out to be a springboard to a lot more research on related topics: It had me off researching alchemy, auras, chakras, dharma, ...and about 20 more topics that I found fascinating. LOL Bar PS You're very welcome. :-)

The To Haindl or Not to Haindl thread was originally posted on 27 Mar 2005 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.