Buying a shadow deck.

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 12 Apr 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Statickitten	12 Apr 2005
I was thinking that it was time for me to take the leap and get a good shadow deck. I am considering buying the H.P Lovecraft deck. But what would be a good companion book to help me along with the meanings for each card? I was also thinking about maybe getting the Thoth deck. But I dunno, it just seems like it would be a little bit light. I want a deck that I can really delve deep into, showing me what I don't want to see. The deepest parts of me. I was immediately drawn to the Vertigo deck, but I can't find a deck anywhere.

Gwynne	12 Apr 2005
I don't think I'd ever describe the Thoth as "light" It delves deep, hard and fast and sometimes tells me things that I'm not sure I want to know, but that I do, in the end, need to know.

gollog	12 Apr 2005
Could anyone explain to me what a shadow deck is and what kind of deck is it 'opposed to'? Sorry, but never heard of this before. thanks

Emeraldgirl	13 Apr 2005
Gwynne wrote: I don't think I'd ever describe the Thoth as "light" It delves deep, hard and fast and sometimes tells me things that I'm not sure I want to know, but that I do, in the end, need to know. I second Gwynne on this one. The Toth deck is not light at all. It is very in depth and requires a fair bit in the way of soul searching and time.

Lillie	13 Apr 2005
I know, I have said all this before, but I'll say it again. All the other 'dark' decks are fashion items, pretty art for for goths, Anne Rice readers and wannabe satanists who are dabbling their black varnished toenails into the occult pond to impress their friends and shock their parents. The Thoth is the real deal. It's the best occult deck. It's the only deck. It hasn't got pictures of badly drawn vampires on it, There's no blood. There are bright and pretty colours. But if you want real, and deep, if you want something that will get into your mind and your heart and your soul, if you want something that you can look at every day for 20 years and still find something more... Get the Thoth. Get the thoth and get the big one. Maybe even get the green one. (I am going to copy and save this for the next time I want to write it) Also, it is my opinion only, and though I hold it deeply and express it honestly, it is only mine and I am sure there are many who would not agree. I am sure that there are some who would not trade their vampire deck for any money, but will they still be saying that in 20 years time when their kids are laughing at their goth photos? That's what I wonder. And nothing wrong with goths, I was one, before the current crop were even a gleam in their parents eyes. And yes, my kid is well amused at the photos, and I am older, but not much wiser, and I still use the Thoth.

Little Baron	13 Apr 2005
I second Lillie - the Thoth is very intense and deep. There's a whole life's study in that deck if you want to take up the challenge. There is light and dark in it ... and a whole many more surprises. Also echo Lillie when I suggest getting that nice big one, so you can really jump into all those details. LB

Fudugazi	13 Apr 2005
I have the Thoth, and I agree it is deep and powerful, as well as very beautiful. Light? No...do not confuse its airiness with lack of depths. Space is airy - and what is more profound? But the deepest readings I get - and often the least comfortable - I do with the Tarot de Marseille. After years of delving in all sorts of systems, I see this is the one that touches the soul of humanity. And no wonder: it is a wise old deck, everyman's deck - not pretty, not occult: but true. I am barely a few months into my path with it, and already it has opened up things I most definitely had not seen before - in me and in others; readings done for me with it have had the same effect. It is le deck.

Emily	13 Apr 2005
I agree with what others have said about the Thoth but there is also another deck that I would consider a shadow deck and that is the Tarot of the Spirit - its a Thoth clone but the artwork is surreal and dreamlike - it's artwork you'll either love or hate. It also comes with a good companion book. :)

Little Baron	13 Apr 2005
Helvetica wrote: But the deepest readings I get - and often the least comfortable - I do with the Tarot de Marseille... It is le deck. In total agreement, Helvetica! Was wondering also, have you looked at the Rohrig. There are a lot of members here that love it and it does have a dark element running through it - very luxurious and moody. The 'Light and Shadow' is another interesting one, worth a look at. LB

Fudugazi	13 Apr 2005
LittleBuddha wrote: Was wondering also, have you looked at the Rohrig. There are a lot of members here that love it and it does have a dark element running through it - very luxurious and moody. I can't wait to get it! I have it on order - I found it for under 10 euros on a site in Germany - about a third of any other vendor! (Of course it does mean the card titles will be in German - but I was looking for the original German, because I hear they "dressed up" (literally ;)) the US-released deck!) I'll report back on its shadowy qualities when I receive it.

fyreflye	13 Apr 2005
Anyone who thinks the Thoth is "light" should connect with this one:http://www.shadowtarot.net/ and http://www.themysticeye.com/pics/shadow.htm If you want to be shown what you don't want to see this should do the trick.

Little Baron	13 Apr 2005
Yes Helvetica, they did dress up the US version, which I have. There are threads on here about that and also about the keywords - trimming them off. Like many, I found the keywords distracting and trimmed. I pretty much only use the TdM these days (occasionally use the Morgan Greer or playing cards) but I do have an affection for the Rohrig. I am sure that many won't find it dark but there is something slightly unnerving running through the images. For example, in one card (can't remember which), there is a beautiful scene with balloons in the sky. The background, however, is like the background hanging in a theatre, hanging in the middle of a dark night. It just puts you slightly oin edge. I hope I am remembering all of these details correctly because I havn't looked at my copy in an awful long time. LB

Little Baron	13 Apr 2005
I see what you mean Fireflye. Interesting deck; never seen that one before. Just thinking some more. One deck I always wanted, out of curiosity, is the New Orleans Voodoo. Now, I don't usually get spooked by cards but, in my opinion, there is something quite unnerving about this deck. Don't get me wrong - I love the art work and imagery; there is just something, dark, about it. Try this one out for size! I would be very interested in what you think of it and what members that have it think about how it reads. http://themysticeye.biz/pics/voodoo.htm LB

WolfyJames	13 Apr 2005
gollog wrote: Could anyone explain to me what a shadow deck is and what kind of deck is it 'opposed to'? Sorry, but never heard of this before. thanks Shadow decks are decks to explore your shadow and dark side. Usually, people use dark decks to get good results.

fyreflye	13 Apr 2005
LittleBuddha wrote: One deck I always wanted, out of curiosity, is the New Orleans Voodoo. Now, I don't usually get spooked by cards but, in my opinion, there is something quite unnerving about this deck. Don't get me wrong - I love the art work and imagery; there is just something, dark, about it. Try this one out for size! I would be very interested in what you think of it and what members that have it think about how it reads. http://themysticeye.biz/pics/voodoo.htm LB I have this set and quite admire it but I'm not much interested in Voodoo or Santeria. The deck has nothing to do with exploring the shadow side of one's personality; it simply takes its philosophy and images from an occult religion just as the Thoth does, though the card meanings are standard RWS.

Fudugazi	13 Apr 2005
fyreflye wrote: I have this set and quite admire it but I'm not much interested in Voodoo or Santeria. The deck has nothing to do with exploring the shadow side of one's personality; it simply takes its philosophy and images from an occult religion just as the Thoth does, though the card meanings are standard RWS. Voodoo and Santeria are not occult in their countries of origin or the other places where they are most practiced - but they do explore parts of the person - including very dark parts - that Western culture simply cannot touch (or not since paganism was abolished). Unlike Western culture, such animistic religions (and their synchretic offshoots) do not view the shadow side as "bad" or to be repressed, or "not nice". They take on board the whole human, warts and all - the physical and the psychic - though possibly the intellectual is lacking?: but I am waiting to be corrected here. I hear the book of the deck is very good. I'm interested in the Voodoo deck too - it reminds me of my years in Africa, where so many of my cosy certainties were set aside for good. I came to life there.

WolfyJames	13 Apr 2005
As for the Thoth, I don't understand people who find it dark, it's actually colorful and the art is modern. My Thoth is even is a colorful bag made for it of orange and green with some touches of light blue. I think people's negative reactions come from Crowley's reputation. I have many shadow decks, some darker or more disturbing than others. Here are the ones I have. The Ancient Enlightened Tarot (Sola-Busca) is a disturbing deck. The Bosch Tarot is disturbing as well, check out the Ace of Cups with the fully armored and armed creature terrified of emotions, terrified of love, being overprotective ( http://www.wicce.com/boschtarotpix.html ). I have not received yet the Archeon Tarot, so I can't comment on it but it's an interesting dark deck. The Fantastical Tarot has some disposition for darkness with the weird people in it, the Lovers card is more doom than love. Then my favorite, the Gothic Tarot by Vargo, is packed with potentials, I even came up with a spread to go with it: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/gothic-vargo/review.shtml . I recently got the Guardian Tarot and it is also a dark deck showing gloomy and lost angels. The Halloween Tarot is a fun and dark deck worth checking out. Some persons do find the Light And Shadow Tarot dark, but I don't, and it is indeed a good deck to have. I have seen the Gothic Tarot of Vampire by Lo Scarabeo and it looks like a perfect deck for shadow work. But frankly, if you find the Gothic Tarot by Vargo too dark and bloody, then you will faint at the sight of the Gothic Tarot of Vampire. The deck is quite much darker and more pervert, and here I'm not talking necessarely about sexual perversions. I have seen as well the Giger Tarot, it's a major only, and it's very dark and shoking. As for the Vampire Tarot, I find it more funny than anything else. Plus, the artist didn't work much on the minors and it shows. Her previous deck, the Fantastical Tarot, is much more achieved, the minors are better worked (but not enough) and it's not funny at all.

Little Baron	13 Apr 2005
I don't find the Thoth necessarily dark. Infact, what I do like is how I can find dark moments in what some would call light decks. For example, the Marseille or the RWS can have dark moments. It is how I look and interpret, I suppose. When that happens, I get a jolt and the intensity seems more so. Does that make sense? LB

WolfyJames	13 Apr 2005
LittleBuddha wrote: I don't find the Thoth necessarily dark. Infact, what I do like is how I can find dark moments in what some would call light decks. For example, the Marseille or the RWS can have dark moments. It is how I look and interpret, I suppose. When that happens, I get a jolt and the intensity seems more so. Does that make sense? LB Totally! I've had very harsh readings with the Golden Tarot, the golden, magnificent, luscious Golden Tarot. Who knew it could hit me with a sledgehammer?

Little Baron	13 Apr 2005
They just jump up behind you and pounce sometimes, don't they? I am Daily Drawing with the Conver at the moment. I may draw a couple of pleasant looking cups, muse over them for a moment, and then ... bang! I see something that is so accurate and sometimes, disturbing, I wonder how I never saw it in that card before. The fact that these decks look pretty and light on the outside doesn't mean they don't have murkier depths that cannot be seen on the surface straight away. I like that because as a personal tool, it gives me well rounded readings and talks from all angles and perspectives - hitting me hard sometimes and unfolding round me like a blanket on others - that's what makes a good deck, I suppose. I have never really been interested in a 'dark deck' for the reasoning that it was dark. Sometimes, a lot of those decks interfere with those 'well rounded' readings I prefer. I have seen the Vargo Gothic and even though it is not one I would buy, can see why a lot of people like it. It has great artwork and I am sure that, even though it probably can be 'dark and shadowy', can give some very light and conforting readings as well when it wants to. LB

Lillie	13 Apr 2005
Well. people talk about 'dark' and I am never too sure what they mean. Different people seem to mean different things by it. Define dark. Just the colours? Dressing in black? dying your hair and reading books with black covers? The New orleans voodoo deck. I got this a little while ago cos it was going cheap and a friend had recommended it. It is very bright a lot of the time, in terms of colour. So in that way, just looking at the appearance of the cards it could not be seen as 'dark'. However, it is a very strange and powerful thing. The book that goes with it is fascinating too. I have not yet had chance to give this deck the time it deserves. It is deeply occult, and might demand blood. Dark? How about the smiling psycho in the rainbow coloured Tee shirt with the knife hidden behind his back. Sometimes I think some decks are like that.

Statickitten	13 Apr 2005
Well, I found a good sale on tarot cards. So I picked up a few decks. I got the Thoth, The Halloween (I thought it was so cute, I couldn't resist.) The Fantastic, The Vampire, and The Sacred Rose. So we'll see which one I like the best. When I said the Thoth appeared to be a little light, I meant that the images on it appear so light and airy. The images on it are really beautiful. Which makes me think that it wouldn't really bring across your dark side that you don't want to see.

Logiatrix	13 Apr 2005
Lillie wrote: Well. people talk about 'dark' and I am never too sure what they mean. Different people seem to mean different things by it. Define dark. Just the colours? Dressing in black? dying your hair and reading books with black covers? < snip > Dark? How about the smiling psycho in the rainbow coloured Tee shirt with the knife hidden behind his back. Sometimes I think some decks are like that. LOL, Lillie! :laugh: However...dark decks aren't necessarily occult, bloody or gloomy, IMHO. When I think of "dark" in reference to tarot decks, I think of decks that I find to be blunt, aggressive, or even harsh. I favor a dark deck for severely honest self-readings or for shadow work. That's when I'll use an in-your-face deck that refuses to trim the sharp edges before it delivers the message to me. Perhaps "dark" is a misnomer. I don't think such a tarot deck necessarily needs to be dark in art style or theme; for me, it's more about depth--it goes deep and it cuts deep. Maybe that's what a dark deck is...it's a deck that takes the querent deeper into the darker places of the soul. :)

rainwolf	13 Apr 2005
There's a "dark" rider waite deck, i forgot what it was called but the pictures were all very dark and mysterious. It took me a loooooong time to warm up to getting the thoth, i said i would never buy it--i even scribbled out the page of thoth decks in a catalog once!! Then i bought it and realized i judged crowley too harshly. Although he was very.....odd.....he had an inspiring deck that will probably touch people forever. And i cut the borders off too! That really let the artwork out! Looks amazing! OOh--the Barbara Walker deck is good-not very happy pictures most of them, but if you get the book it is all explained and is fascinating.

Lillie	13 Apr 2005
The thing with me and the Thoth, It was my first proper deck, and my only deck for many, many years. I was also much fascinated with Crowley himself even before I got the deck. It's part of me. So I support it with a passion whenever I can. And anyway It's a great deck by a great man (and his goat) Oh yes, that goat amuses me immensley.

Logiatrix	13 Apr 2005
Statickitten, the Sacred Rose is my current "dark" deck. The colors and lines seem to put me in the right frame of mind; I think "intense" is a good word for the mood it triggers. I'll look for any posts by you in the future regarding this one, after you've had time to take it in. :)

DarkElectric	13 Apr 2005
I love dark decks. I find that many people have a tendency to confuse dark with evil, however, and this is something that is simply not true. "Not everything dark is evil, not everything light is good, and whatever is red tends to be dangerous." I don't remember where this quote came from, but it's stuck with me, for obvious reasons. Admittedly, I am as dark as they come, but evil? No. I'll have no truck with evil. I fight evil from the shadows. It never knows what hit it. Anyway, as far as awesome "dark" decks are concerned, Dark recommends the Vertigo tarot. Rare, but able to be found, it is based on the "Sandman" series by Neil Gaiman. (A dark brother if ever there was one. Revered author of the novels 'Neverwhere' and 'American Gods', as well.) Look for it in shops which sell comics, which is where mine came from. This is so because Neil Gaiman is a respected author of comic book fiction, and the first Vertigo tarot was released when there was a lot of buzz about "Sandman". The deck, however, is something which can be appreciated for it's own unique wonderfulness even if one is not conversant with the Sandman comics, or anything Neil Gaiman ever wrote. The Illustration is done by Dave McKean, and the text of the accompanying book (which is NOT LWB,) is by Rachel Pollack. They collaborated with Neil Gaiman on this lovely deck, and in my opinion, the result is stunning.

Nydia	14 Apr 2005
WolfyJames wrote: The Bosch Tarot is disturbing as well, check out the Ace of Cups with the fully armored and armed creature terrified of emotions, terrified of love, being overprotective ( http://www.wicce.com/boschtarotpix.html ). Yes, the Bosch Tarot creeps me out! I don't have it and don't want it. I've seen a few scans in the past, too. I clicked on that link hours ago, but I didn't want to click it again before writing this! I looked up the Dali Universal Tarot, but it wasn't creepy like I was expecting.

Nydia	14 Apr 2005
rainwolf wrote: OOh--the Barbara Walker deck is good-not very happy pictures most of them, but if you get the book it is all explained and is fascinating. Rainwolf beat me to this one. I have this and I like reading with it. I have to use the LWB and the big book for it, though. I feel like this deck tells me the truth. Often, I realize later how much the reading made sense. The Secret Tarot by Marco Nizzoli is a deck I've seen in past threads described as dark, and they love it. I would like to have the miniature version of it.

Emily	14 Apr 2005
I find that sometimes the most unexpected deck can give you a jolt out of the blue. I'm using the Spiral again at the moment, not sure how long it will last because this deck seems to be giving me some real gut-punching, no holds barred readings. Now there is nothing wrong with this but I'm used to the gentler approach of my Morgan Greer not this 'lets cut through the cr*p and get straight to the point'. And it has been somewhat of a shock lol. Although a great learning curve, I couldn't read like this all the time. So the Spiral would have to be one of my 'Shadow' decks.

Fudugazi	14 Apr 2005
DarkElectric wrote: The deck, however, is something which can be appreciated for it's own unique wonderfulness even if one is not conversant with the Sandman comics, or anything Neil Gaiman ever wrote. The Illustration is done by Dave McKean, and the text of the accompanying book (which is NOT LWB,) is by Rachel Pollack. They collaborated with Neil Gaiman on this lovely deck, and in my opinion, the result is stunning. Thanks for this recommendation - I am a Neil Gaiman fan, but never thought to connect him to Tarot! I'll look out for the deck too.

Clau	14 Apr 2005
Logiatrix wrote: Statickitten, the Sacred Rose is my current "dark" deck. The colors and lines seem to put me in the right frame of mind; I think "intense" is a good word for the mood it triggers. I agree with Logiatrix, try the Sacred Rose Tarot, is very intense, and can give you a very deep look in to what you need to know. Blessings, Clau

Darla	14 Apr 2005
Nydia wrote: The Secret Tarot by Marco Nizzoli is a deck I've seen in past threads described as dark, and they love it. I would like to have the miniature version of it. Oh yes, I love this deck. Although I'm not sure I would call it dark it definitely has a dark feel. Somewhere I read it is the Rider Waite's dark twin and I couldn't agree more. A lot of cards are actually quite bright so you could call it balanced, but the overall feel to me is dark. I love it in certain moods or questions.

Cocobird55	14 Apr 2005
The Vertigo (Neil Gaiman/Dave McKean) is out of print, but there are usually a couple of copies floating around on e-bay. That's where I got mine.

DarkElectric	15 Apr 2005
Vertigo is indeed out of print, but there are backstock copies in stores which primarily sell comics. I got mine from Sarge's Comics in Connecticut. I'll check back there and see if he's got any more. If he does, I'll try to buy them. If I'm successful, you'll see it in "Tarot Trading". There are a couple of decks I've been wanting, and I'd rather trade for something than sell it outright. And I'd rather keep the trading here "In the Family" Ya know!

Fudugazi	15 Apr 2005
I am looking for the Vertigo - there are no backstocks in Swiss comics shops :( It'll have to be ebay and huge prices... On the other hand I have just received the Gothic Tarot of the Vampires in a trade. What can I say? Wow!!! I have done one reading with it for a friend who described her question as obsessive. It's powerful, beautiful, disturbing - it reminds me less of old-fashioned Vampire movies (the setting is modern urban) - rather of Coppola movies like Rumble Fish or Apocalypse Now - or Chinatown, Les Diaboliques, and so many films noirs. I can see why Vampires are described as seductive - I can hardly keep my hands off them! I think this is going to be one hell of a shadow deck.

Gwynne	15 Apr 2005
I got a pretty blunt, heavy reading with my Tarot of the Northern Shadows the other day... I was doing a full life reading for myself, basically testing out a spread before using it in public, and it sort of just smacked me in the face, especially in the past portion of the reading. I was really surprised, as it hadn't really been that brutal to me before.... I talked to my husband about a few of the things that came up in the reading and he gave me this look like "Well, duh!"

SunChariot	15 Apr 2005
Statickitten wrote: I was thinking that it was time for me to take the leap and get a good shadow deck. I am considering buying the H.P Lovecraft deck. But what would be a good companion book to help me along with the meanings for each card? I was also thinking about maybe getting the Thoth deck. But I dunno, it just seems like it would be a little bit light. I want a deck that I can really delve deep into, showing me what I don't want to see. The deepest parts of me. I was immediately drawn to the Vertigo deck, but I can't find a deck anywhere. Funny you should mention that. I am about start some Shadow work with Thoth Tarot in a week or two. In case you find this useful, I am planning to use the book "Tarot Shadow Work, Using the Dark Symbols to Heal, by Christine Jette". I bought the Thoth specifically for this work. Although I find it deep, I do not care as much for the pips. I find it hard to see their meanings when I look at them, all I see is patterns...(sigh), but the exercises in this book use only the Majors. I've noticed as well that in the book I have on the Thoth, "The Crowley Tarot-the Handbook to the Cards, by Aaron-Hajo Banzhaf" ( well I have two but that is the one I have read so far) they even give "shadow" meanings for the cards, which I expect will be helpful in shadow work. Bar

DarkElectric	15 Apr 2005
Helvetica, if I can find one for you here I'll let you know. Sarge's is sort of an out of the way comics shop, and I'll ask my BF he can take me there this weekend :)

prudence	15 Apr 2005
I just ordered the New Orleans Voodoo tarot, then I found this thread! let me tell you I am more excited now after reading everyone's thoughts on the deck here. I love the imagery so much, it feels like it's "grabbing" me by the 3rd chakra, right thru the computer! It gives me butterflies! As for blunt and honest...so far my Sakki Sakki has been very blunt (sometimes harsh!) with me! But I am truly in loooooove with this deck!! The imagery is very playful, with a few dark (yet still playful) cards here and there.

WolfyJames	15 Apr 2005
DarkElectric wrote: Helvetica, if I can find one for you here I'll let you know. Sarge's is sort of an out of the way comics shop, and I'll ask my BF he can take me there this weekend :) I'd be interested in a Vertigo deck as well, if it's not too expensive, I mean if it's not 100-150$US. I've tried comic books shops and they didn't have the deck, some didn't even know what it was. I've read of a third edition but it seems like false informations on the official website of Sandman. If it's not too much, of course...

Nevada	16 Apr 2005
Interesting how differently we view some decks. I consider myself a very light-oriented person, yet I've used the Thoth for many years and haven't considered it particularly dark. In fact I bought the Vargo Gothic last year so I'd have a shadow deck. It's all relative, I guess. :) Nevada

The Dreamer	16 Apr 2005
The Liber T Tarot of Stars Eternal is often considered dark. It is based on the Thoth.

Fudugazi	16 Apr 2005
DarkElectric wrote: Helvetica, if I can find one for you here I'll let you know. Sarge's is sort of an out of the way comics shop, and I'll ask my BF he can take me there this weekend :) That's very kind of you! There's a couple going on ebay - but pricey. And you and your BF can cath up on out-of-the way comics ;)

Oni	19 Apr 2005
i have 2 or maybe thoth's i have never found the deck to be dark! but that is just me. on yes defeintly the Barbara Walker deck is dark ! i love that deck. and the other deck by her I ching of the goddess is so great, it is like the Barbara Walker deck but like just more of it and much bigger pics. i m jonesing for the New Orleans Voodo deck right now so i m working on getting that.

DarkElectric	19 Apr 2005
I'll give it a shot and see if there are any left there, and how much they cost. It's possible that seeing as this is an off the beaten track comics shop, they may just be selling it for what it was going for when they ordered it (if there are any left at all). My BF gave mine to me, he bought it there some time ago. I'll ask him how long that was. Maybe I should just call Sarge's and end all speculation!

The Buying a shadow deck. thread was originally posted on 12 Apr 2005 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.