First appearance of the infamous plaid back design on Rider-Waite decks

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 10 Apr 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Rusty Neon	10 Apr 2005
When did the plaid back design first appear on Rider-Waite decks? Was it with the 1971 R-W deck printed by AG Müller and distributed by U.S. Games? Or was it earlier than 1971? Enquiring minds want to know. :) Thanks.

Gerbear	10 Apr 2005
According to Holly Voley's Rider-Waite site, the plaid backs appeared when USGames took over in 1971. You can confirm this here; http://www.home.comcast.net/~vilex/

peridot	10 Apr 2005
wow, so what were they before?? And for all you HBO Carnivale fans, I believe the cards that Sophie uses cannot be correct then? Are the plaid ones you mean blue and white? Her cards if I remember correctly were the plaid backed ones. What should someone have been in possession of in the 1930's? :)

Fulgour	10 Apr 2005
From what I've seen, U.S.Games didn't "invent" the pattern, and as a design for card backs it likely goes way, way back.

similia	10 Apr 2005
There's a nice side by side comparison of the RWS backs at that website. http://home.comcast.net/~vilex/Cardbacks.html Guess Carnivale folks missed that heh? At least they show cards other than Death and the Devil. :)

peridot	10 Apr 2005
Uh huh! Well, there you go. nice links you guys. I guess they did miss it. Probably thought no one would notice. :)

laura_borealis	14 May 2005
Their version also has the titles in French, however. So it's clearly not meant to be an early US version of the deck. Has anyone researched foreign editions of the RWS? Holly's site shows some, but if she has any French decks I missed them.

gollog	14 May 2005
My Rider Waite deck has a different back than the ones on the link Similia provided. Unfortunately I don't have a scanner so I cannot show you guys, but it is deep dark blue with a yellow/golden cross in the middle and in the middle of the cross is a pink roze with tiny green leaves appearing among the pink ones. It's quite nice I think. It is a german version and I got it in a bookshop in berlin, no box, just a plastic wrapping.

Sulis	14 May 2005
I have a deck that was printed by A G Muller but it's pre-US Games. It says on the box 'Rider and co' and it has the blue plaid back. No U S Games copyright, no mention of U S Games at all.... Love Sulis xx

Rusty Neon	14 May 2005
Sulis wrote: I have a deck that was printed by A G Muller but it's pre-US Games. It says on the box 'Rider and co' and it has the blue plaid back. No U S Games copyright, no mention of U S Games at all.... Are the backs blue plaid or blue/black/white plaid? If they're blue/black/white plaid, I can't say for sure, but those might still be early U.S. Games sponsored tarot cards printed by Müller and packaged by Rider and Company in a Rider and Company box. (After all, some later distributions of Rider-Waite cards in the blue Rider and Company box contain cards with U.S. Games copyright mention.) The early U.S. Games Rider-Waite cards (i.e., from the 1970s) are in yellow boxes (with a New York City address for U.S. Games on the box and either 32nd Street, NYC or Park Avenue, NYC as the U.S. Games address in the LWB); they have the blue/black/white plaid back but don't have any mention of US Games (nor any copyright mention) on the cards. They are printed by Müller in Switzerland. They are matte (as opposed to shiny) finish and the front of the cards have a slight, sort of a wax-like feel.

Sulis	14 May 2005
Rusty Neon wrote: The early U.S. Games Rider-Waite cards from the 1970s are in yellow boxes (with a New York City address for U.S. Games on the box and either 32nd Street, NYC or Park Avenue, NYC as the U.S. Games address in the LWB); they have the blue plaid back but don't have any mention of US Games (nor any copyright mention) on the cards. They are printed by Müller in Switzerland. They are matte (as opposed to shiny) finish and the front of the cards have a wax-like feel. This sounds just like mine, the waxy feel, the matte finish, no mention of U S Games anywhere but the box is a blue box with the World Dancer on it. I also have a deck with exactly the same finish and back but that one has US Games copyright in the white border of every card. This one is in a purple lift-off lid box with a Fool card on it. Maybe this box was made just for the UK. Love Sulis xx

Rusty Neon	14 May 2005
Sulis, It looks like I was re-re-editing my post at the same time you replied. (see above) Are the Rider and Company box Rider-Waite card backs blue plaid or are they blue/black/white plaid? Thanks.

Sulis	14 May 2005
Rusty Neon wrote: Are the Rider and Company box Rider-Waite card backs blue plaid or are they blue/black/white plaid? Thanks. Wow Rusty, I didn't know there were 2 versions of the blue plaid. I think mine is the blue/black/ white plaid. I've scanned a couple of cards to show you. On the box it says 'TAROT CARDS - printed for Rider & company London by A G muller and Cie Switzerland. The original and only authorised edition of Tarot Cards Rider & Co - 3 Fitzroy Square - London W1.' Sulis xx

tmgrl2	14 May 2005
I have one with blue/black/white plaid...and it says U.S. Games 1971 on each card. Also, HBO, sells a deck that is not used in the show...on the HBO site, they use traditional RWS cards for free online readings...but Sandra Thompson writes an article about how the cards in the show are not the ones they sell n(nor the ones used on the website). The ones in the show have French titles... La Lune was one Ben got in his search for his father... Thompson's article also relates each character to a card (her idea of who fits which card) just posting here as an aside: http://www.ata-tarot.com/reflections/11-01-03/carnivale.htm terri So what is my blue/black/white plaid-backed card called: 1971 U.S. Games RWS...I also bought a Universal Waite Tarot thinking it was the plaid, but it is the U.S. Games 1990 version with the dark blue/purple and stars on back.

Rusty Neon	14 May 2005
Sulis wrote: Wow Rusty, I didn't know there were 2 versions of the blue plaid. I think mine is the blue/black/ white plaid. I've scanned a couple of cards to show you. The only plaid back for Rider-Waite that I'm aware of is the blue/black/white plaid. I was asking about your colours because your earlier post mentioned "blue plaid", and I was curious as to whether that was a different one from the blue/black/white.

Rusty Neon	14 May 2005
tmgrl2 wrote: I have one with blue/black/white plaid...and it says U.S. Games 1971 on each card. I presume you're speaking about a deck in a yellow U.S. Games box and that the address shown on the box and LWB is the Connecticut address for U.S. Games rather than any of the two NYC addresses. U.S. Games didn't start putting on a 1971 copyright mention until some time after 1971, presumably around the time when they moved to Connecticut. I think all Connecticut cards would show the 1971 copyright mention, but I'm not sure [i would still like to find out from u.s. games what year that was.] Even as between Connecticut cards, there differences in card title fonts - early on, the cards had the same calligraphic-looking fonts as on Sullis' scans while subsequently (within the last ten years or less, I guess), the font changed to the typeface font. Even as between the early Connecticut cards there are some differences as regards card finish and ink odour; but no noticeable colour hue differences. There are colour hue differences between the U.S. Games NYC/no copyright mention cards and the U.S. Games Connecticut / 1971 copyright mention cards.

tmgrl2	14 May 2005
It was my first deck, Rusty...I bought two, gave one away....and didn't keep the box, but the LWB, says US Games, Stamford, Ct. 1971....

truelighth	14 May 2005
peridot wrote: wow, so what were they before?? And for all you HBO Carnivale fans, I believe the cards that Sophie uses cannot be correct then? Are the plaid ones you mean blue and white? Her cards if I remember correctly were the plaid backed ones. What should someone have been in possession of in the 1930's? :) There was no Rider Waite deck with plaid back around in 1930, so no, this is a little mistake they made. The Rider Company published decks with either the brown crackled back or the blue Roses and Lilies back. The Roses and Lilies one seems to have been only one printrun. After that, all early Rider Waites have a crackled brown back, so Sophie should have had one of those.

laura_borealis	15 May 2005
truelighth wrote: There was no Rider Waite deck with plaid back around in 1930, so no, this is a little mistake they made. The Rider Company published decks with either the brown crackled back or the blue Roses and Lilies back. The Roses and Lilies one seems to have been only one printrun. After that, all early Rider Waites have a crackled brown back, so Sophie should have had one of those. Including ones with titles in French?

tmgrl2	15 May 2005
laura_borealis wrote: Including ones with titles in French? My question as well...since the cards Sophie and her mother have used have titles in French... terri

Citrin	15 May 2005
gollog wrote: My Rider Waite deck has a different back than the ones on the link Similia provided. Unfortunately I don't have a scanner so I cannot show you guys, but it is deep dark blue with a yellow/golden cross in the middle and in the middle of the cross is a pink roze with tiny green leaves appearing among the pink ones. It's quite nice I think. It is a german version and I got it in a bookshop in berlin, no box, just a plastic wrapping. I have those backs too, bought it in a Swedish shop.

truelighth	15 May 2005
laura_borealis wrote: Including ones with titles in French? As far as I know there were no Rider Waite decks around with French titles until U.S. Games got the rights. Marseille decks always had French titles. The old Rider Waites were only printed in English and most probably all in the U.K.

laura_borealis	15 May 2005
Interesting! :)

Lillie	15 May 2005
Here's an interesting one. This is a german RWS, with very nice backs. They have 1971 US Games copyright on the edges of the cards, but AG Muller is also mentioned in the booklet or box or whatever. Quite an unusual deck, I thought.

The First appearance of the infamous plaid back design on Rider-Waite decks thread was originally posted on 10 Apr 2005 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.