The Classic Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Jun 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Pipistrelle	13 Jun 2005
Hi All, I ordered this deck yesterday so it should be with me in a couple of days and I was wondering if anyone had any comments to share on it. It will be the first "historical" deck I own and I'm really very excited about it - it strikes me as being quite elegant and graceful. Here's a link to the deck on AT so you know what I'm talking about: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/classic/ The colours seem very harmonious but bright and I love the detail on the 2 of Pents. I also love all the white space - I think it gives it a very crisp, clean feel. One thing I'm especially looking forward to is studying and working with this deck and perhaps "starting from scratch" with regard to the minors. I realise they have keywords on them, but being non-scenic I feel I will be able to explore a range of meanings available that I haven't yet been able to with scenic pip decks. What do you think? Pip

Cerulean	13 Jun 2005
known as the Soprafino. I will have to return to this thread tonight--but people can also point you to a book known as Tarot Life Planner that illustrates tarot spreads and ideas with this deck... If you want to know any more about the designer Carlo de la Rocca, and the original deck, we can point you to information. This deck for the di Gumppenberg card production in Milan in the 1800s. Let us know if you want to see other website reviews or links...it's a very eye-catching tarot, full of interesting and pretty designs. But you said you want to start from scratch, so I was wondering if you wanted to wait until you received the deck. Best regards, Cerulean

Pipistrelle	13 Jun 2005
Thank you for replying Cerulean!! I would love to know more about the history of the deck and the designer please! I feel I'm taking a step deeper into tarot by getting this deck and getting a little bit closer to the heart of tarot - I'm sure this sounds silly to a lot of people :) But anyway, it may be that now I've survived the initial confusion of trying to learn meanings and using tarot cards (well, just about!) I'm ready for the next step...Part of me thinks as well that I will learn a lot by reading with a deck where every card meaning isn't shaded with a "theme" if you get what I mean. I don't know...this could just be naivite talking ;) It's funny...if anyone had asked me three days ago, I would have said the next deck I wanted to buy would be either the 1001 Nights or the Tarot of the Cat People. But a couple of days ago, I suddenly had the urge for an "elegant" deck - something simple and refined - and those decks suddenly seemed to me to be too "heavy". I have no idea why! I'd seen the Classic in a catalogue before and hadn't really paid it much attention but now I'm suddenly raving about it!! Must be the moon or something :) You're right about wanting to start from scratch...I have seen some of the cards but I like to keep most of the deck a surprise for when it arrives, so I'll try and stay away from more images until I get it. I'm sure I'll post back here when I have it anyway... Well, rambled enough...must go and do some more work now! Pip

Fudugazi	13 Jun 2005
It's the Soprafino! It's gorgeous :) Happy discoveries, Pip! You might want to pop along and read these, to start off: http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/soprafin.html http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Essays/iota.html http://www.tarothermit.com/milanese.htm

Cerulean	13 Jun 2005
reproductions--Lo Scarabeo reproduced three of the five--the Neoclassical or renamed Ancient Tarots of Lombardy (1810-1811)-all 78 in Pattern One; Lamperti in 22 cards (no longer in print -Pattern 3); Classical or Soprafino (1835-1845) (Pattern 4). The dates are somewhat fluid, but the patterns are quite different! The information is my weak translations of Solleone, Il Meneghello/De Vecchi and Lo Scarabeo Italian bits and pieces. I haven't seen a standard book on Di Gumppenberg patterns, so please excuse this weak attempt at organizing my notes. Ferdinando Gumppenberg Born Jan 3, 1788 from Franco and Caterina Sala. It says born to Monaco of Baveria, Monoco being a city-state, Baveria being the country in 1788? 1805-1809--Apprenticed in the art of cards press (printers) in the important Fabbicante di Monaco 1809--Enlightenment, the Regia Fabbrica (regional maker?) of the cards transfers to Milan---I believe this is within Napoleon's reign, near the end. Cerulean Mari's note: I also believe that one of the historical events that might have influenced the making of the Neoclassical of 1811 might have been the birth of Napoleon's son in March of 1811, known as the "King of Rome" and crowned with the Iron Crown of Lombardy.* (Di Gumppenberg did issue a later deck in celebration of Emporer Ferdinand) 1809-1814 Produces numerous original cards. 1810, 1811 "Tarocco Neoclassico Italiano," Milano - (Note Kaplan suggests 1806 or thereabouts in dating). My copy is reprinted in 1980 in an edition of 1,500. (Pattern I) 1812 Marries Marianna Pohl 1814 Liquidation of the Regia Fabbrica di Milano. Cerulean Mari's note: Possibly this means that the card-making is no longer controlled regionally or restricted or the designation from Napoleon's 'restriction' was lifted and now competition from other Milanese cardmakers 1814, July--Gumppenberg initiates activity near the Giardino (either the garden district?) 1816? I have to translate this note 1820 - note related to the bottega di Caffe in Borgo di Cittadella 1820 "Il Dilettevole Giuoco del Cucco,"41 cards, stamped 1820, to 1846. Il Solleone published 1,500 copies in 1981. (Cerulean has never seen this set). 1820-25--produces "Tarocco Vedute e Meistieri de Milano"...alternative name of Trade Sites of Milan Tarocco..(Pattern 2) Il Solleone published 1000 copies in 1982. 1825 --Printer negotiates in Corsia del Giadino "sono in vendita anche biglietti della Lotteria"... 1835 (1830-45)--"Tarocchino Lombardo". One woodcut version could be the one in limited colors reproduced by Il Meneghello/De Vecci, mass market edition. A somewhat different edition from Lo Scarabeo, called the Lamperti, was issued in 22 majors only. (I call this part of Pattern 3) Il Solleone's note: engraved by Carlo Dellarocca around 1835, and then the Italian note"...dal Gumppenberg, dal Lamperti e altri in Milano e Lombardia"--note correction below on Lamperti note in 1847. Lamperti is his son-in-law. Il Solleone published their version of the Dellarocca designs in in 1981 in a limited edition of 2,000. Dating is also between 1835-1845. We know this title as the Tarocco Italiano Soprafino with engravings by Carlo della Rocca. (Pattern 4) Given this information, the mysterious beautiful additions to the Dellarocca designs might have been innovations by Lamperti and Dellarocca? 1838-40 Produces "Tarocco Della Corona Ferrea" (Pattern 5) Iron Crown of Lombardy Tarocco * from Edizioni del Solleone, reprinted 2,500 copies, 1979. (Link is to Iron Crown of Lombardy summary that mentions Napoleon and Ferdinand. http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclo...own-of-Lombardy 1847-He concedes the printmaking in general to Lattanzio Lamperti, the spouse of his daughter Paola. 1855- Dies after 67 years. I hope that I've not confused you in terms of reproduction history that I was able to glean. Best regards, Cerulean P.S. There is a book that uses the Soprafino/Classic as illustration with suggestions on how to read the deck--it's not a historically accurate book, but it does give people ideas when they want to read with such a deck. Others will suggest interesting websites such as Mark Filipas' Pasteboard Masquerade with some design identification and interesting background on the deck.

Oni	13 Jun 2005
i had this deck i traded it off, but i m goign to get it again i loved the key words on the sides of every card

Satori	13 Jun 2005
I've seen the scans for this deck and was very drawn to it too. I've a Hadar in my possession and it is not my favorite..... What drew me to this deck was that the wand in the hand looked real, and the detail on the hand was also very realistic. I'm thinking about getting this deck too, have been for some time. I think it is or was a favorite of jmd's as well....don't quote me on this...

Pipistrelle	14 Jun 2005
Wow! Thank you Helvetica for the links and thank you Cerulean for the masses of historical information!! I'm sure this is going to add greatly to my appreciation of this deck :) "sono in vendita anche biglietti della Lotteria"...something to do with lottery tickets! :) I suspect to do with selling them (vendita). It's been a long time since I studied Italian though... I need to digest the information you've provided - as well as spend some time browsing those links Helvetica provided, so there's already loads to learn! But I'm pleased, because I like the fact this deck has a history. .....I was just going to finish replying here but the doorbell went and it's just arrived!! :) Will be back later with more, Pip

Pipistrelle	14 Jun 2005
Okay...just a quick post :) I have spent the whole day with the deck in its box on my desk, waiting for the work day to end so I can have a proper look at it!! So far, I have just laid out the minors, one by one, in rows in their suits, so the numbers line up vertically. It really is a beautiful deck, especially laid out all together like that. It makes me immediately want to buy the Soprafino so you have the full image without the large left border! I can run my eye along the row of Swords - sorry, Spades ;) - for example, and the curved swords from card to card form circles. Lovely :) That said, I actually like having the keywords. As I was laying them out - as well as appreciating the art - I was mainly reading the keywords. Never has looking at a new deck sparked so much curiousity in me! I had to go and get a pad and I now have jotted down EIGHT different things I want to investigate about the keywords - and that's just the minors!! I can't lay the majors out as well because I only have a small surface, so now I'm going to collect up the lovely minors and have a look at the majors... I feel this is going to be a really important deck for me in terms of STUDYING tarot (sorry about the caps - I have problems making things go italic!) I feel that there is a real opportunity here to learn more about the cards - as well as tarot itself - and to really tighten up those fuzzy meanings I have for many cards. Anyway, as I said...short post :) Pip

Emily	14 Jun 2005
Hi Pipistrelle, The Ancient Italian Tarot by Lo Scarabeo is a very similar Soprafino deck - looks very old fashioned and without the keywords - infact not sure why the Ancient Italian Tarot doesn't have them or the languages usually associated with Lo Scarabeo decks so just had to check, and nope just Italian on these cards. I'd never took much notice of the keywords before but now you've got me hooked too - they do seem to fit the feel of the card - might I have found an unillustrated deck I could read with? The Classic Tarot has the more refined artwork, whereas the Ancient Italian has more of a pen and ink feel to it. Just to add the limited edition Tarocco Soprafino F Gumppenberg 1835 II Meneghello, available from AlidaStore, is the same as the Classic but smaller scale. Also unlaminated and has a very hand-made feel about it. :)

Emily	14 Jun 2005
I love the keyword on La Forza - Energy. Yep she looks like she's got enough energy to take that lion down lol :D

Cerulean	14 Jun 2005
from Bolognese through Di Gumppenberg and Dotti and the Ancient Italian (Sessiaville) information in a timeline. Only noting as a source the Bolognese and focus on the Milanese, with a nod to the Vieville or other variations. YES, there are reproductions with smaller format, woodcut, and stencil and even black and white....it's taken me years to track them down at different times on a budget... I am delighted and like to study the fancy variations of Di Gumppenberg and Dotti and related patterns--and have noticed how attractive the Soprafino/Classic is to the eye. There's even a workbook of sorts-well, mostly a tarot book with the Classic/Soprafino style illustrations. I keep sneaking back to woodcuts or plainer Neoclassical or sighing over my Dottis that were made in competition with the Di Gumppenbergs...my bad Italian scurry-look at my birthday Dotti (Milanese Tarocco) hints at Dotti being on the same or near the same street as the Di Gumppenbergs. Back to work (sigh--but will check thread later). Cerulean

Satori	14 Jun 2005
Hi there Pip, Mine will be on the way soon! thanks for helping me to reignite my interest in this deck!

Pipistrelle	15 Jun 2005
Emily wrote: I'd never took much notice of the keywords before but now you've got me hooked too - they do seem to fit the feel of the card - might I have found an unillustrated deck I could read with? Hi Emily - yes, I've found the keywords to be quite specific yet they also seem to open up the meaning of the card as well, if that makes sense...er, as in they seem to get to the heart of the card but also help you "brainstorm" a little as well. Some keywords seem to fit well to meanings I'm used to; others take a different point of view - 3 of Swords as Analysis for example - which is quite helpful; others still seem completely different to the RWS meaning. For example, 6 of Pents as Unscrupulousness and 7 of Pents as Charity, and King of Cups as Intellectual. But I find these differences very interesting. Can anyone tell me...Are these keywords that Lo Scarabeo have added for this reprint or are they the meanings that would have been associated with the cards at the time they were originally used(i.e. 1800s)? I've also noticed that the keywords match those given in the LWB for the Crystal Tarot - also by Lo Scarabeo - with a few very minor changes. I wonder if these are just LS's generally used keywords or whether it means the Crystal was based on this deck? Anyway, these are just general thoughts about the keywords and I hope to study each card one by one so I'm looking forward to that. :) Emily wrote: The Classic Tarot has the more refined artwork, whereas the Ancient Italian has more of a pen and ink feel to it. Just to add the limited edition Tarocco Soprafino F Gumppenberg 1835 II Meneghello, available from AlidaStore, is the same as the Classic but smaller scale. Also unlaminated and has a very hand-made feel about it. :) I had seen images of these other decks you mention, but what drew me to the Classic was the bolder colouring - I have to have colour and even the LE Soprafino looked a little faded in comparison, even though I'm sure it's a really nice deck. And yes, the "refined" artwork in the Classic is very attractive. Pip P.S. Elf - glad I could be of service ;) I'd love to hear what you think of it when it arrives.

Pipistrelle	15 Jun 2005
Meant to ask... In decks such as this, how does one refer to Card XIII? Is it still "Death"? Or just "Card 13"? Or something else? :) Pip

Cerulean	15 Jun 2005
1....the cartomancy meanings from Lo Scarabeo and some Italian language decks are hard for me to define one actual source. 2. In terms of the Crystals Tarot, many, but not all the minor keywords seems to meld with the meanings originally attributed to Eudes Picard. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=36250&page=2 3. In regards to the 'unnamed' card or Card 13 or Death, I think once or twice I saw poetic description..."And the card that should not be named, etc...."--but it was a poetic, slightly satirical translation of a Luigi Scapini modern recreation either in the Romeo and Juliet tarot or a creative reference from Italo Calvino in Crossed Destinies. In an Etteilla-style deck of the 1800s with names of the cards printed on the face, Morte or Death is titled. http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/cartoma.html It's fun to see people get into these decks! Cerulean di Gumppenberg fandom

Jewel-ry	15 Jun 2005
So glad you went and bought this deck. It is an absolute favourite of mine. In fact, I used this deck when I did my very first 'real life' reading. The key words dont bother me at all, I think its because they go up the side so I just dont see them unless I want to. I have dug out a link to a very interesting thread started by Mark Filipas, I know others have put various links in so pardon me if I have repeated something already done :) http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=24103&highlight=filipas I have the Soprafino and the Italiano which have a more authentic feel to them but I do love to read with this Classic version. I also have a book by Jonathan Dee called Tarot - An illustrated guide which is illustrated using the Ancient Italian Tarot (yet another variant). This particular book, I picked up cheap from a local bookstore and I find it very useful. Its really nice to see the italian decks discussed like this, in particular this one. ~

Pipistrelle	16 Jun 2005
Cerulean - I'm amazed at your wealth of knowledge!! Thanks for the keyword links, I'm adding them to my "curriculum" of study :) Jewel-ry - that thread is wonderful! I read about half of it last night and will finish off hopefully today :) Combined that with Cerulean's posts here, I'm starting to really get a handle on this historical stuff. Pip

Pipistrelle	16 Jun 2005
Can anyone tell me what "Fan." is the abbreviation of please? I've worked out all the other abbreviations in the card titles (not that there are many) but searches for "knave" and "page" in Italian have brought me zilch :) Also, am I correct in assuming that the "Italian" way of referring to the minor arcana is as follows? e.g. Asso di danari Due di coppe Tre di spade (not sure how "spade" is pronounced) Quattro di bastoni etc. It just doesn't feel right referring to the "2 of Cups" etc. with this deck! Thanks, Pip

Fudugazi	16 Jun 2005
Fante - page Spade is pronounced spah-deh (sword)

Pipistrelle	16 Jun 2005
Thank you! :)

fall_guy	17 Jun 2005
Hello Pipistrelle. I'm a new member here (as of 5 minutes ago!), and my favourite historical deck is the Classic...or rather a makeshift one I cobbled together using scans of the deck. I bought the Classic a few months ago as I adored the artwork. However I found the keywords very distracting, and after butchering the deck (guillotining the borders!) I decided to use scans of it instead to print out a new deck. It's sounds crazy I know, but I'm very glad that I did - the cards look more authentic to me, as well as more personal. Enjoy the deck - there are many curious details on the pictures to be discovered!

Emily	17 Jun 2005
Hi fall_guy, The Ancient Italian is very similar to the Classic except that it has no keywords - you may like that one too. I can't decide which is my favourite - the Ancient Italian because it has no keywords or the Classic which has keywords that are helping me learn how to read these decks. :)

Fudugazi	17 Jun 2005
Il Meneghello's edition of the Soprafino is wonderful - a work of art. Maybe not an everyday deck, but certainly one that people love - it can be used with querents that have that sensitivity (or yourself ;)) I am curious about the Classic - have they kept the same proportions as the original? How abot the keywords - are they intrusive or helpful? It's a shame, by the way, to call it the "classic", which is the name of at least two other decks I can think of, rather than its lovely Italian name of Soprafino (super-fine). Sophie

fall_guy	17 Jun 2005
Helvetica wrote: I am curious about the Classic - have they kept the same proportions as the original? How abot the keywords - are they intrusive or helpful? It's a shame, by the way, to call it the "classic", which is the name of at least two other decks I can think of, rather than its lovely Italian name of Soprafino (super-fine). Sophie Without the keywords the images are very narrow, but don't appear disproportionate. The keywords? Well I guillotined them! Some of them seem rather bizarre (e.g the Fool=Strangeness (?!)).

Pipistrelle	17 Jun 2005
Helvetica wrote: How abot the keywords - are they intrusive or helpful? Hi Sophie, I wasn't sure whether I'd like the keywords but, at the moment, for studying the deck, I'm finding them intriguing - especially where they differ to the "standard" meanings I've learned since I started..er..taroting :) I am looking forward to exploring in and around the keywords, along with the images, to hopefully uncover new layers of meaning. This will be a very slow process, a card at a time, and one that I'm pretty sure I'll never finish as I am sure to find some new diversion before I get to the "tre di coppe"! That said, I haven't yet tried to do a reading (nor shuffled or taken the cards out of order!) so I'm not sure how distracting the keywords would be when you're trying to be all intuitive. I look forward to trying. At the moment, the thought of doing an "everyday" reading with this deck just doesn't feel right - I feel as if I should be doing readings such as, "What can you tell me about the King's chances should he go to war?" or "Should I return the affection of this latest suitor?" Perhaps wording is all...maybe an everyday reading with this deck would work if I questioned: "wherefore art my car keys?" (A little Shakespearian but I think you get my point!) :) Pip

Fudugazi	17 Jun 2005
Pipistrelle wrote: At the moment, the thought of doing an "everyday" reading with this deck just doesn't feel right - I feel as if I should be doing readings such as, "What can you tell me about the King's chances should he go to war?" or "Should I return the affection of this latest suitor?" Perhaps wording is all...maybe an everyday reading with this deck would work if I questioned: "wherefore art my car keys?" (A little Shakespearian but I think you get my point. LOL, Pip - thanks for the laugh! What a wonderful thought. So - should the king go to war? ;)

Pipistrelle	17 Jun 2005
Helvetica wrote: LOL, Pip - thanks for the laugh! What a wonderful thought. So - should the king go to war? ;) Well, I'm still not ready to shuffle, but I did ask and cut the deck for my answer, which was: Due di spades - Duel So, yes, the king should definitely go to war. It will be a good clean fight and there will be a out and out winner (those definitely look like victory ribbons to me :)) As for the suitor - the Deici di Danari (how fun is that to say?!) tells me that he would give me all the worldly goods I could ever hope for, but ultimately I'm married, so I don't think it would work out ;) Pip

Fudugazi	17 Jun 2005
Pipistrelle wrote: Due di spades - Duel So, yes, the king should definitely go to war. It will be a good clean fight and there will be a out and out winner (those definitely look like victory ribbons to me :)) As for the suitor - the Deici di Danari (how fun is that to say?!) tells me that he would give me all the worldly goods I could ever hope for, but ultimately I'm married, so I don't think it would work out ;) Great- I'll let the king know. As for the suitor - maybe he'd take second best - yours truly :D

Pipistrelle	18 Jun 2005
Helvetica wrote: Great- I'll let the king know. As for the suitor - maybe he'd take second best - yours truly :D Well, I described you and he seemed very keen so he's on his way! You'll know him straight away - he's wearing a red rose in his lapel and reading a newspaper ;) (Oh, and he has bags of cash). Pip

Satori	25 Jun 2005
Um, Pip since you seem to be handing out men with money......could you...well, I'm not planning on deserting my man, but could you fill his pockets??? I have my Classic and still haven't done muc with it. I like it tho. I like it a lot. It has a dreamy quality to it that is so far from the Hadar....that well, I think I like it better. It seems more fluid, less rigid. The Classic seems to like itself more than the Hadar, you know... More comfortable in it's 'skin' whereas the Hadar is very stuffy and stiff. Probably shouldn't compare, but well, there it is.

HearthCricket	25 Jun 2005
I just got this deck. And I am expecting my Soprafino next week. Curious, though. All the majors have the name at the bottom of the card, in Italian, except for the Death card. That is just blank. Is everyone elses deck like that? I haven't had a chance to get to the LWB to see if there is an explanation. Gorgeous deck, though. I, too, like this much better than the Hadar, but they are so different, it is hard to compare. This is definitely softer in colour and feel than the harshness of the Hadar.

The The Classic Tarot thread was originally posted on 13 Jun 2005 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.