tarot ethics

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Aug 2001, and now archived in the Forum Library.

daisy	28 Aug 2001
why is it unethical to ask about the performance of the stock market? When it was doing well, my main thought was of having the ability to serve as a financial "backup" for my family. And with that in mind, would any of you experts (perhaps Rhiannon, since you seem to be in an "experimental" mood) venture to do a spread on the performance of the Nasdaq from now until early next year?

tiger lily	29 Aug 2001
I donīt know whether itīs ethical, but I donīt believe it is *possible* to make such a prediction, no matter what system you use. In my opinion, tarot is not about fortune telling - because in order to predict the future, the future must be fixed, predetermined. But the future is in constant flux, it is changed by our actions in the present. Therefore, when I read the cards, my attention is not directed at the future, but at the present; I seek to get a better grasp of *all* *current* factors of a situation, so that I can make more informed choices. The cards that appear for future trends are exactly that: trends, that will change with the changes I make in my approach. Actually it is the same process as in every decision: you weigh all the factors and then decide. The Tarot helps you to widen your perspective, to take things into account that you would normally have overlooked or suppressed. As for the stock market - I think thatīs an especially dynamic area of life, one that is subject to so many different influencing factors that it is virtually impossible to make a prediction, especially with Tarot. I know that there are astrologers who specialize in this field, but I donīt know how accurate they are.

tarotbear	29 Aug 2001
All you will have to do is make a prediction and have someone invest their entire life savings based on that one prediction and loses it all -- and you will be sued for fraud. I agree with tigerlily- tarot is not about 'fortune telling', and the stock market has too many factors constantly changing to make an accurate prediction...no matter who you are or how accurate your readings might be.

joya250	29 Aug 2001
Daisy, okay, no offense.... But in my opinion it seems ridiculous that you would request a TAROT reading for stock market predictions. There are people who dedicate their entire lives to studying the stock market, and even still they aren't always accurate. I suggest you contact a financial advisor or similar to help you out. The people on these forums have been kind and generous with their willingness to share, and, for me, have been a great source of information and inspiration. Asking people to predict the stock market is not fair - it puts them in an uncomfortable position. Heck, it makes me uncomfortable that you're posting about this again.

Talisman	29 Aug 2001
Oh, gosh, people, I am compelled to divulge my secret of absolutely infallabile fortunes. (Please don't tell.) Eat in a Chinese restaurant. At the end of the meal, crack open the fortune cookie and withdraw the little slip of paper. Inside, you will find a fortune you can absolutely count on. Notice, my system will work without fail. If you do get the wrong fortune, it is not my fault. You just picked the wrong Chinese restaurant. Or, maybe, you got the wrong cookie. Leave the waitperson a large tip and come back to try again. Works every single time (if you do it right.) Talisman

magnwa	29 Aug 2001
Well.. I simply won't do it because I have seen people arrested in this state for fortune telling. (It is a crime in almost all the states in the US to predict the future with a certainty.. you can say that you think something would happen, but you cannot predict with any amount of certainty what WILL happen.) A few of these people lost the right to use the tarot for 4, 5, and six years. If they are caught using the tarot, reading a tarot book, discussing tarot, etc.. they go to jail for the remainder of the probation. A few others were not so lucky, and those people gave stock tips and what not.. and they went to jail for 3 to 7 years because some poor people spent their money on them. I cannot afford to take that risk. Neither can others. Even most of the bags those fortune cookies come in say in fine print. "For entertainment purposes only." or "Cookie and paper do not fortell the future." Help you? yes! Discuss you? yes! Work with you? Yes! Discuss a large multinational conglomeration of fluctuating indicies controlled my thousands of independant devices and structures? No. Magnwa

Talisman	29 Aug 2001
Sorry, Magnwa, Gonna change my signature to read: "This was writ satiric." Then have it show up in day-glow, neon letters. What I get for being ham-handed. Nevertheless, my system always works. Don't knock it 'till you've tried it. Guaranteed. Talisman I'm more like I am now than I was when I came here.

tiger lily	29 Aug 2001
LOL talisman! I donīt think that magnwa misunderstood you - I think it was directed at daisy - explaining why he thinks it is unethical to try to predict the stock market by using the tarot/pendulum/you name it. *If* I was able to do that, I wouldnīt be posting here - I would have figured out the lottery numbers ages ago ;-)

magnwa	29 Aug 2001
Percisely, Tigerlily.. Talisman, I got your humor very quickly (I love satire :) ) I was framing my response towards Daisy as a more detailed way.. in short, I was trying (pitifully) to explain the satire behind your post in my explanation of why I won't do those types of readings. :). Magnwa

Talisman	29 Aug 2001
magnwa, Of course you saw what I was attempting to do, and if I missed the mark by a mile, well, you saw that too. Believe me, please, I always enjoy your posts because you never bother unless you have something intelligent or pertinent to say. In this case, I admire your patience. Sometimes, the things we lack the most, we admire the most. (Does that make sense?) Besides, your wit is never heavy handed. If someone started a thread on tartot and fortune telling, we could all talk forever. Talisman There is always a fork in the road.

Mojo	29 Aug 2001
My, what high horses we have in here. First of all, if I were on a jury where someone was suing their Tarot reader for bad investment advice, I'd probably vote to have the idiot investor committed. He's not safe for society. Daisy, if you want to do a reading on the stock market, by all means do it. If you want to risk a lot of money based on what the cards say, then lets talk about some land I have for sale in South Florida. As far as I'm concerned the only ethical issue with Tarot that matters at all is to make sure you never mis-represent yourself. If you are not a doctor, do not give medical advice. If you are not a lawyer, do not give legal advice. And so on and so forth.

magnwa	30 Aug 2001
Talisman : Heh.. I thank you very kindly for the comments. Were you to know me before I started Tarot you would swear I was the world's largest jerk. This thing has taught me a lot about myself and what I can do to help others and it is something I feel will be a part of my life for a long time to come . :) Now.. on to the high horse thing. I really didn't want this thread to turn into a knockdown drag out fight. But, as I go to bed and watch Miss Cleo offer her services for $240/hour, and I see her ads on MTV (young) , BET (minority), and following Infomercials for "Degrees from home" (not necessarily stupid, but educationally under privellaged, possibly through no fault of their own).. I cannot help but wonder why a company charges $240 an hour for a task it pays at most $12 for. Right now, just right now, Miss Cleo told what sounded like a 24 year old black woman that starting her home based business is a great idea, and that it all seems like it'd work out. We're in a down economy, this woman was raising a single child, and Cleo tells her to go for it. We have a duty to those we read for. In fact, we have a duty to all those who even KNOW what we do. I told a family friend that I read cards.. I got recation #4. "Oh, you mean like Miss Cleo?" I told my mother. Reaction #2. "That's satanic." Father. Reaction #3. "That's nice." (I love my father. He says that's nice, but he means something completely different. Could be bad, could be good.. I never know.) The general response though, is that we charge a high amount of money for a service that has a questionable history. You cannot go by a day without hearing of some psychic phone scam MLM or pryamid scheme involving card readers and 1-900 lines. People like Stephen Glass are diving in and rightfully turning crooks on their heads. The reason I have a code of ethics, and the reason I stick to those codes, is because I watch so many readers on these 900 and 800 lines who do NOT have these ethical codes. I watch what they are, and what they have become. Some of them are good readers, and I cannot fault them for working for their bread. However.. I cannot sit there by the same regard and watch them charge $240 per hour, and only get $12. That's unfair for the reader and the seeker. The difference between me and the many "psychics" I've called to figure out what it's like is that they will tell me ANYTHING. I ask them for lottery numbers, and I get them. I ask them for good luck charms, and I get told to give $1000 to the very next person I see after my watch beeps at 10AM. I ask for a hex to be put on my neighbor's dog.. and they'll do it. You know what's really sad? When you tell people you are a tarot reader, you get put in that category. When you tell them you are a tarot reader with a code of ethics, you get put outside the category. You get put above that category, whether you think that should be the result or not. 1-900 and 1-800 numbers can get away with telling people to do inane, stupid things to themselves, their money, and their futures by simply putting the words "For Entertainment Purposes Only" at the bottom of the screen. Sometimes I have to wonder whose entertainment it's for. Magnwa. PS. I am not trying to insult those of you that work at pay numbers, even if you work at them for $240 / hr. My point is that I have run into readers who outright tell me that I am doomed if I don't call them back every day. That's abusive, and a code of ethics followed prevents that.

magnwa	30 Aug 2001
Oh.. dear.. forgot to address one key point. The cases and what not that I have mentioned.. they are not client brought civil cases. They are actual criminal cases that are brought forth because of the CRIMINAL act of predicting the future. (Yes.. it is illegal in many jurisdictions to predict a future as if it is the only possible outcome) I just thought I'd clear that up since it didn't need to be brought by a complaintant, but just by an undercover investigator walking in, and taping the session until he heard the right things said. (IE.. "The Nasdaq Market will perform badly this year.. I see it falling drastically.. and that the leading stock is BuyCo." does cross the line.. whereas.. "I see someone in your past.. coming to the future. Have you run into somebody you know, possibly from school a long time ago?" is a different targeted time frame.) Magnwa, who really, honestly doesn't wanna start a fight.. so if it looks like it might get close to one, let's just stop before , kay? :)

daisy	30 Aug 2001
WOW! I didn't mean to wake the beast...

Kimon	30 Aug 2001
Hello, a client once wanted me to have a look in the cards about stock market; I told him I had no idea at all if it would work or not, and that I would not want to be held as responsible for whatever came out. He agreed and I did the reading, which as he told me afterwards, was quite good and helped him somehow. The financial question, without stocks, but about what will happen with jobs or if monetary situations will get better or not, is an extremely common question and I dont think its something to reject; so in a way this stock market question is a prolongation of it. I think it works as well as all other readings, but I also think that it would not be possible to go down this way to be a millionaire; this might work once or twice, but then the cards will throw the querent out because its him who has to earn the money, not the cards. They will give a little beginners help, and be an advisor then, but never an employee doing what the querent should do. As to the predicting aspect, yes of course, I dont focus on the future too, and the biggest part of my readings are about roots and the structure of the present time, but also we all know that clients are often just quiet at this part, and get huge ears and very interested when it comes to the effect of the present, the future. I think there is no way for us to pretend not to be fortune-tellers, because we are all the time (mis)used as such by clients. The only difference to the spooky gipsy that talks about inevitable destiny is that we are trying to work out the whys and hows and the various possibilities of the future. But how many clients really care about all that what we tell them, and only stare at something we said is likely to happen? Greetings, Kimon

tarotbear	30 Aug 2001
Actually, my horse is just as tall as everyone else's - 16 hands at the shoulder.

tiger lily	31 Aug 2001
Kimon wrote: "The financial question, without stocks, but about what will happen with jobs or if monetary situations will get better or not, is an extremely common question and I dont think its something to reject; so in a way this stock market question is a prolongation of it." I agree that work-related questions are common, but financial advice via tarot cards?? Iīm veeeery sceptic :-) "As to the predicting aspect, yes of course, I dont focus on the future too, and the biggest part of my readings are about roots and the structure of the present time, but also we all know that clients are often just quiet at this part, and get huge ears and very interested when it comes to the effect of the present, the future. I think there is no way for us to pretend not to be fortune-tellers, because we are all the time (mis)used as such by clients. The only difference to the spooky gipsy that talks about inevitable destiny is that we are trying to work out the whys and hows and the various possibilities of the future. But how many clients really care about all that what we tell them, and only stare at something we said is likely to happen?" Ah yes, but isnīt it so with every advice, Tarot or not? They will listen only to the parts that they want to hear - if it turns out well, it was their own ingenuity, if it turns out bad, it was your advice, of course ;-) But that doesnīt mean that I *am* a fortune-teller, even if people want me to be one. In this point I disagree with you. And I if the situation arises (it hasnīt yet), I will try to rephrase a purely event-oriented question (aka "fortune-telling") and talk some sense into the querent (yeah, I know, Iīm a hopeless case ... ;-) )

nexyjo	31 Aug 2001
i thought alot about this topic before i responded. it never occurred to me to do a reading on the stock market. and i believe that this is because i like to think i understand how the tarot works, and what it is capable of. just like an experienced driver would probibly not take their honda civic and go off roading with it, there are ways to use the tarot and there are ways to misuse it. as pointed out in earlier posts, the tarot widens perspectives, reveals trends, and gives insight into the querent and the forces operating around them. to gain insight into the stock market, one would use newspapers to understand the forces driving it, and watch the market itself to define the trends. the tarot is simply the wrong tool to use for stock market analysis. and because of that, it would be unethical to position ones self as being able to read stock market trends with the tarot. it would be lying. as i've mentioned in other posts, i don't read often for others. but when i do, i make sure the querent understands what the tarot does, and what it doesn't do. my brother in law once mentioned that he "doesn't believe in the tarot". i responded that there is nothing to believe or disbelieve about them. and after explaining how they work, and what they do, and how some people take advantage of the ignorance of the general public, he understood too. this type of post would have done much better in the old "beginners forum". clearly, the ethics of tarot stock market "predictions" indicates to me that the questioner is simply uninformed - that is clear to me. and that in no way reflects upon the intellegence of the questioner, just education in general tarot basics. and of course, this is in my humble opinion, for whatever that's worth. luv and light, nexy

daisy	31 Aug 2001
The 10 of pentacles,upright, can mean financial gain through investing, and reversed, can mean the opposite. I've done readings where the devil showed up next to the 10 of pentacles, and sure enough, I proceeded to sustain a sizable loss in my stock investments. On the other hand, I've had the World and the 9 cups on either side of 10 pent. which meant a sizable gain. I've also had the Wheel of Fortune next to the 10 pent, which meant a positive change in the market's direction. I had the 10 swords next to 10 pent reversed, which forecast the sizable losses that most people sustained, if they were exposed to the Nasdaq. I think that you are all wrong in assuming that it can't be done. I was just hoping that one of you "seasoned experts" might have been able to predict a financial upturn or downturn in the economy.

Talisman	31 Aug 2001
nexyjoy, I so miss the Beginners forum. That was where I felt free to post. And, everyone is beating a dead mouse here. Can I whop it a couple of times? Schmack! Clobber! Whoomp! When I started, I knew everything there was to know. More I study, harder it gets. Should'a quit when I was ahead. Talisman

tiger lily	01 Sep 2001
Daisy wrote: "I think that you are all wrong in assuming that it can't be done. I was just hoping that one of you "seasoned experts" might have been able to predict a financial upturn or downturn in the economy." You are entitled to your opinion, of course. If you think it can be done and (as you indicated in your post) you have done it before, go ahead. I have yet to see a post on this board where someone declares him/herself to be a "seasoned expert". So far I have seen this phrase coming only from you. The way you put it in the quote above, you seem to feel that we boast with our "expertise" and then fail to prove it by predicting the stock market? Iīm sorry to disappoint you, but I never made such a claim, so I donīt feel compelled to "prove it", either.

Kimon	01 Sep 2001
Hello, in respect to whether stock market prediction work or not, I think they work (just did it once and it did, so I suppose it would work some times more too). But I also am sure that it will be an excellent way of spoiling our own ability to read the cards. To take the Honda example; we can go quite a long way offroad, but the car will be ruined very quickly, without repair. Or, in another way, I think the cards themselves always work, for stocks, for loves or for stupidities. But we ourselves lose our ability to understand them the more we get caught by the superficialities of the world, like money. We can only work with spiritual instruments if we ourselves stay spiritual. As to the fortune-telling label; yes, I agree, that we are no fortune-tellers (just have some parts of their business in our own). I always tell people, that I am a tarot reader, not a seer/vident/skryer (how do you say?). But in the end, who is it that gives the name? We ourselves or the others? And does it in reality really matter? I think it is very, very hard to separate the healing from the medicine, to give an example. They both work as one; healing being the real tarot, medicine being the prediction. There is no prediction, in the same way that there is no medicine, because in depth its all healing. I dont know if I am able to explain what I mean...:-) Greetings, Kimon

misifu	01 Sep 2001
Hello Daisy, Wow, with all this info, the computer was smokin'! Anyway, I agree with you in that it can be done. You have to understand that in Gypsy tradition, the Tarot is used for divination, and yes, the Tarot is ALWAYS right, and yes, it can answer any question you wish to ask it no matter how trivial. I cannot discuss the why's and how's and answer questions such as is our life predestined or not. What I can answer is that divination has been going on for thousands of years, and it has always been used, and if it didn't work, people would have stopped using any sort of divination a long time ago. What I also say is while the Tarot can make stock market predictions ( I know of one lady who uses it for wealthy businessmen ), I personally would not want to because it goes against my spiritual beliefs. I have personally been asked similar questions, and I always refuse them. Not because I don't have the ability but because, again, I just refuse. Maybe I'm just another person beating that dead mouse but I do believe that people should be careful in what they ask or want to know. Use your own judgement, however, I personally stay away. Lots of love, Misifu

purplelady	02 Sep 2001
Quote: daisy (01 Sep, 2001 10:44): The 10 of pentacles,upright, can mean financial gain through investing, and reversed, can mean the opposite. I've done readings where the devil showed up next to the 10 of pentacles, and sure enough, I proceeded to sustain a sizable loss in my stock investments. On the other hand, I've had the World and the 9 cups on either side of 10 pent. which meant a sizable gain. I've also had the Wheel of Fortune next to the 10 pent, which meant a positive change in the market's direction. I had the 10 swords next to 10 pent reversed, which forecast the sizable losses that most people sustained, if they were exposed to the Nasdaq. I think that you are all wrong in assuming that it can't be done. I was just hoping that one of you "seasoned experts" might have been able to predict a financial upturn or downturn in the economy. WOW! It sounds like you know more about reading for the nasdaq than most of the "experts" here! Personally , I've never attempted anything like it , maybe because I don't even own any stocks.

purplelady	02 Sep 2001
And you can feel free to do a reading for me to tell me When I'll ever have enough money to invest and what to invest in! 8) :P ;P .Because it sounds like you are more of a "seasoned expert" in this specific area than anyone else!

The tarot ethics thread was originally posted on 28 Aug 2001 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.