Laying cards on people without them knowing.

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Dec 2001, and now archived in the Forum Library.

aeonx	21 Dec 2001
Greetings. I'm interested in your opinions about laying cards on other people, without them knowing. My view is that it's morally wrong, and I would take it as if someone was invading my personal self. My cousin went to a woman for a tarot-session, and she laid cards on her father, boyfriend and other family members. I got upset when I heard this, because I would not be happy if someone sat somewhere interpreting my thoughts about certain issues. It's ofcourse OK as long as the individual agrees to this. Be blessed.

Kiama	21 Dec 2001
When I read, I involve the person in question alot: Iget them to say what they think of each card, how they would interpret it, etc. After all, who knows most about the questio and the querent than the querent themselves? Personally, would not read about somebody when they aren't present, or haven't asked for it. Firstly, I have no need to. If I wanna find out something so desperately about my Dad, I'll ask him, not consult my deck. A deck is no replacement for good old family talk. Secondly, this is very much like invading someone's privacy. Thirdly, I believe in doing what you would want others to do to you. I would not appreciate somebody reading about me without me knowing or being there. Firstly, they might not tell me what they read, and therefore might make certain judgements about me which either could be wrong, or if not, could mean the reader will not give me a chance to explain. Secondly, they can't care that much about me if they prefer asking the Tarot about my problems to asking me! Just my tuppence worth, Kiama

tarotbear	22 Dec 2001
As a matter of ethics, you are not supposed to read somone or read for someone without having their permission first.

Kimon	22 Dec 2001
Hello, following the abstract principles I agree fully with what Tarotbear says; in practice though I do as Kiama describes, because how shall I do a relationship spread without saying something about the other, not present one? Greetings, Kimon

Mojo	22 Dec 2001
What pure bunk. Please explain to me what creates a moral or ethical dilemma about using Tarot to get insight on anything??? It's not like we're talking about searching through someone's garbage pails or personal papers. It's Tarot folks... it's YOUR interpretation of pictures on cards. What possible moral or ethical issues arise out of that? As we go through life, we are constantly seeking and interpreting different signs and signals in our interpersonal relationships. We make opinions based on the way someone dresses, the kind of car they drive, where they live, what kind of education they have received, etc. We look at the surface and try to glean what is going on underneath. It's called human nature. Is this immoral or unethical? No. And neither is using Tarot to try to understand a person or a situation better. The only moral or ethical issues that exist concern what you do with what the cards tell you. Anyone who passes off what they see in the Tarot as absolute truth or certainty creates an ethical dilemma. Gleaning something in a reading and then using that as a weapon against someone (i.e. gossip or blackmail) is acting in an immoral way. Otherwise, I see absolutely no problem with gaining insight about life any way you can. If you have an intuitive tool like Tarot at your disposal, you should use it whenever and however you can. It hones the skill and it sharpens your instincts. No offense folks, but creating a moral dilemma out of something like this really makes someone seem awfully full of themselves.

Kalin	22 Dec 2001
I register along the lines of various points made by Kiama, Kimon, and Mojo. First, the absolute best way to resolve a question or conflict with someone you know is to ask directly. Interacting with the cards instead of with the important people in your life removes a layer of intimacy to say the least. But when we are consulting the cards for advice about how to help ourselves through a conflict, and that conflict involves a relationship, then laying a spread is going to involve looking for insights into *the other/another*. The question is simply being phrased from a different point of view (yours), but you are still asking the cards to look into the point of view or motivations of someone else, to better understand how to proceed yourself. I agree with Mojo that most of our moral/ethical dilemmas are of our own creation, so if asking the cards about someone else constitutes a moral/ethical dilemma for someone, I respect that as I respect all personal choices based on each individual's sense of what's right for them, but then that person probably needs to be very careful about the spreads s/he uses and how his/her questions are phrased (and should maybe even consider removing the court cards from their decks...j/k). Kalin : )

MeeWah	22 Dec 2001
This controversial subject has appeared previously, & likely will again. It is a subject that raises some strong feelings. Personally, I prefer not to do second party readings mainly because it feels like invasion of privacy to me; it also depends on the person making the request. If I sense questionable agendas, I refuse. Clients have wanted to know if their significant other is cheating. Usually the person asking already knows the answer. I have seen that "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" in action. One client wanted to know if her husband was cheating. I found out she was habitually going through his pockets, his wallet & his personal possessions; calling him or "visiting" him at work to see if he really was there or somewhere else. Aside from the fact that he wasn't always at his desk, she had reason to suspect him of extramarital activities--he had a history of same & he travelled often due to the nature of his job. I didn't have to consult the cards to tell her she already knew the answer & what was left was what she chose to do with it. On the other hand, many of us including I, receive impressions on all kinds of things including people, with or without the cards. Do we tell our inner selves to hush up, or do we listen? If we receive information, there is a reason for it happening; however, where does one draw the line? If an individual appears in a reading, any information that results about that individual is part of the reading. Ultimately, the quandary may be reduced to how the information is used, as Mojo stated. As readers, we are responsible for our actions. If we have people who rely on what we state or advise, we need to exercise care in how we impart *any* "information". Though we cannot be responsible for someone else's actions, we can be responsible messengers. I tell people this is one view; another reader may see it differently. It's like anything else one would use. In the right hands, whether it is the reader or the querent, the wisdom of the Tarot is a boon. Used wrongly, it can be a harmful tool.

DeLani	23 Dec 2001
I'm with the majority (for once!) on this one. I believe it is an invasion of privacy to read for someone without their permission. As for relationship spreads, you aren't reading the other person, you are reading how that person's actions will affect the querent. As for Mojo's assertion that we have this tool, we should use it: To me, it's like evesdropping on a phone conversation. Sure, we have this wonderful tool called the dual phone line, but is it truly OK to use it to listen in on things that we weren't invited to? Sticking with the "how will so-and-so's actions effect me?" types of questions are more ethical, yet still gives the querent the info they need. Blessings, DeLani

Kiama	23 Dec 2001
Quote: Mojo (23 Dec, 2001 02:14): What pure bunk. You may not agree with what we said, but you don't need to demean it. I see your point about the 'Tarot isabsolute' thing. I agree that we cannot take the Tarot to be absolute proof and truth: It doesn't work that way. However, giving the example of us looking at people's education, clothes, etc and gleaning what's going on underneath is not something I like to do I prefer to actually know the person first. The difference beween using the Tarot for people and for situations is that people have freewill, feelings, and secrets that maybe they don't want to be looked into any furth. Situations can be looked at and decided as to whether or not you needt change what you are doing at the present time. I see Tarot as a problem solving tool rather than a find out about so-and-so tool. I think my main problem with reading when I'm not there (Presuing I'm the person being read about) is that this person could think they see something which isn't true. If I'm not thre, I ont have a chance to explain myself, or put them right. Kiama

Mojo	23 Dec 2001
Sorry Kiama, but anytime someone (who should know better) makes a definitive statement like "as a matter of ethics, you are not supposed to read somone or read for someone without having their permission first" it gets my ire up. That is pure fiction just like all the other Tarot snobbisms like you can't buy your own deck or you need to wrap a deck only in silk. Since these forums are often places where new tarot enthusiasts come for guidance, I find it disconcerting that things like this become statements of fact rather than opinion. If someone doesn't feel comfortable reading about someone without their persmission, FINE, don't do it. But don't place powerfully judgmental labels such as "ethics" or "morals" on it. When I see things like that, my Ace of Swords nature boils over, I guess... certain things just make my BS alarm go off and I have to respond.

divinerguy	24 Dec 2001
I see it as a issue of manners. I would hope that people don't talk about me in my absence. While I may do a reading about someone else without consent, I'm not going to discuss it with anyone. Its kinda like thinking about someone -- you just keep it to yourself. Gary

aeonx	24 Dec 2001
[sorry kiama, but anytime someone (who should know better) makes a definitive statement like "as a matter of ethics, you are not supposed to read somone or read for someone without having their permission first" it gets my ire up. that is pure fiction just like all the other tarot snobbisms like you can't buy your own deck or you need to wrap a deck only in silk. since these forums are often places where new tarot enthusiasts come for guidance, i find it disconcerting that things like this become statements of fact rather than opinion.] Mojo, I was interested in various opininons on this topic, and even though you don't agree with certain ones, you're not entitled to bite anyones head off. I'm still interested in thoughts on the subject, and please folks, keep it on a nice level... *s* A couple a days ago, I met this woman from my original hometown. We got into a discussion about "alternative lifestyle", but when I mentioned tarot, she just frowned. The reason was that a woman had laid cards on her and her husband, without their permission, and then she used it against them in an argument. It's this use of tarot I condemn. Lastly, have a merry christmas!! *s*

bec	24 Dec 2001
I never lay cards, read cards or even think in cards for some one who hasnīt asked me to do so. I see it as an invasion in that persons personally life, and thatīs not for me to know if they havenīt given me the invitation. I know Iīm not gonna get a full picture, on the other hand - if I already knows a little about the person I do believe Iīll get some insights in that persons thourghts and smotions that I wasnīt suppose to get. I try not to be judgemental when other people walk all over my ethics and morals - but I do know one thing, if I were to see a reading done for me that I havenīt asked for, I would get furious with that reader. In my oppinion itīs not something that should be done.

MeeWah	24 Dec 2001
As I indicated earlier, this is a subject that elicits some strong feelings; however, it seems we are in agreement about *how* information is used. It is best to avoid taking out of context what Mojo stated. I refer you to the following as stated by Mojo: "The only moral or ethical issues that exist concern what you do with what the cards tell you. Anyone who passes off what they see in the Tarot as absolute truth or certainty creates an ethical dilemma. Gleaning something in a reading and then using that as a weapon against someone (i.e. gossip or blackmail) is acting in an immoral way." This is part of my position on the subject & that seems to be what Aeon X is referring to as well. Diverguy expresses part of my take on this well, too. What may be gleaned inadvertently is not cannon fodder. Mojo is entitled to his opinion, & there are others who think as he does. From an intellectual point--that is, excluding the emotional--I point out that while his opinion may not agree with some of us, he has *not* really expressed anything in an offensive manner--merely expressed an opinion *succinctly* which some may find offensive. The term "bunk" is not particularly rude, to me. There are far worse expressions he could have used given his strong feelings & he has not. Moreover, I understand him to address this in general terms rather than in a personal way. There is a difference!

Osher	26 Dec 2001
I use a 'half-way' house. If for some reason I want to pull cards for someone and I haven't asked for their permission, I ask the cards if it is right for me to pull. However, sometimes the answer is pertinant in itself. Happiness.

Lee	26 Dec 2001
I think one's opinion on this issue is dependent on what one believes about the Tarot in general. If one believes that the cards actually give one information from beyond, i.e. from somewhere totally unconnected with the reader, then it could certainly be considered an invasion of privacy to read for someone without their knowledge. But if you consider Tarot to be a method of looking inside oneself and one's subconscious for answers, then it wouldn't be an invasion of privacy; it would be the same as if you sat by yourself in a room and asked yourself what your impressions were of the other person. I guess I come down on the side of those who say it's more important to focus on what you do with information you get, rather than to worry about what kind of readings people are doing when they're all by themselves in a room with a Tarot deck. -- Lee

tarotbear	26 Dec 2001
I see Mojo's mojo is not working again... Would you use tarot to 'spy' on someone else? Would you do a reading for someone who asks 'Tell me what so-and-so is doing right now' ?? Would you tell them things about another individual that is none of their business to begin with, particularly without that individual's knowledge? Sounds unethical to me.

Mojo	26 Dec 2001
And I see Tarotbear is making assumptions and thinly veiled accusations again.

faunabay	26 Dec 2001
I know better than to jump in the middle of this ----- but here goes OK, I had this big long mess of an explanation typed out and just deleted it all......what it boils down to for me is "if you think that person would be upset if you did a reading on them, don't!" This covers all aspects of the issue for me. There are all sorts of reasons why people would/could be upset - they are hiding something, they feel it's an invasion of privacy, they don't approve of tarot, etc. So it doesn't really matter for what reason they would object. Just ask yourself this question - "Would they mind?" And if you don't know, err in the side of caution and don't do it. For example, I would (and do) read for my Mom and tell her afterwards. I know she appreciates it. But I wouldn't do a reading about say....my neighbors and what's going on with them. I don't think they'd approve at all. Anyway there's my opinion....take of it what you will.

tarotbear	27 Dec 2001
Quote: Mojo (27 Dec, 2001 10:21): And I see Tarotbear is making assumptions and thinly veiled accusations again. Sweetie -- if it was any more thinly veiled it would be naked!

Mojo	27 Dec 2001
Quote: tarotbear (27 Dec, 2001 17:06): Sweetie -- if it was any more thinly veiled it would be naked! I guess that speaks for itself. You know nothing of me and my practice of the Tarot, so for you to make accusations about my ethics is pretty shallow and disgusting, but not surprising. If you have problems with me, take it up with me personally and not in Solandia's forums. That catty Joan Collins "scratch and claw" act went out of style in the 80s, so give it a rest.

Maan	27 Dec 2001
This is a difficult question. It raises many questions for me. Because i feel like most here that asking about others is violating someone's privacy. But on the other hand i can't even count the thimes when i asked the cards questions about the way others see me or how to get on with some people. And well now i'm thinking that i'm crossing my own line about privacy? This is a delicate subject and in detail everybody will probebly disagree. But isn't that the fun of a forum like this? Maan

tarotbear	27 Dec 2001
Quote: Mojo (27 Dec, 2001 22:56): Quote: tarotbear (27 Dec, 2001 17:06): Sweetie -- if it was any more thinly veiled it would be naked! I guess that speaks for itself. You know nothing of me and my practice of the Tarot, so for you to make accusations about my ethics is pretty shallow and disgusting, but not surprising. If you have problems with me, take it up with me personally and not in Solandia's forums. That catty Joan Collins "scratch and claw" act went out of style in the 80s, so give it a rest. Sweetie - I think you're the one who 'has to give it a rest'. You're the one who jumps down the throat of anyone who even thinks about disagreeing with you and then goes into retaliations if they do. Sorry - never wasted my time watching 'Die Nasty' - I had better things to do with my evenings. No- I know nothing of you or your ethics - but from the attitude you give people when they disagree with you and the usual condescending tone you write with - I would not care to, either.

Kiama	27 Dec 2001
*Kiama cowers behind many, many pillows in fear of the bullets being fired back an forth* Kiama

EveAnna	27 Dec 2001
I read for my husband, who's not into tarot at all, but he knows and if anything comes up interesting I tell him.

Mojo	27 Dec 2001
Kiama, fear not, for you are not pompous and full of yourself.

aeonx	28 Dec 2001
Greetings all and merry christmas! I was afraid that something like this was going to happen... *eyeing Mojo and Tarotbear* But people, let's not forget that it's a time of happiness and peace, and instead of using space in here for arguing, let posts relating to the topic have room. *s* Anyway, about the couple I mentioned in my last post... They see tarot now like an evil instrument, a perception that's been kinda stuck with tarot throughout history. (Not as much nowadays though.) Their experience with this woman created their fear and disapproval, and I think it's awful that a person is using tarot for such gains as spying and gossiping about the "results". Well, gotta run. Have a christmas-party to attend. *s*s*s* I wish yoy all a merry christmas and a fantastic new year!

Martin	18 Jan 2002
I personally have read about other people without asking them, and it doesn't bother me that I've done it in the slightest. I think like everything it ultimately comes down to intention. I'm sure there are very few people who would go through the effort of learning the tarot merely to get gossip fodder. Furthermore, I'm sure gossip that started along the lines of "I did a reading & it said that..." wouldn't be taken seriously by many. I don't see it's any different to sitting down & wondering about peoples intentions, apart from the fact it might be a bit more informed than idle speculation. I have read for people who have been hostile towards me in order to understand them & thus help resolve the situation and I have read for those I was worried about. But then that's the thing about morals & ethics isn't it, they're a personal guide, not an absolute rule.

The Laying cards on people without them knowing. thread was originally posted on 21 Dec 2001 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.