Free will, destiny, and Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Apr 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

mehrdad	04 Apr 2002
In this forum or in some of the books printed about Tarot, people are making this assumption that the future is not carved in stone and depending on one’s action the future might be changed. Tarot writers speculate that the future is hallways with many side doors that can be chosen through the individual’s choose of an action. However, the facts about the natural being do not support such a supposition. How many of us choose our parents, the country or the environment that we were born into? How many can claim the genetic make up that form them, physically and mentally, was engineered according to their own choosing? Did we select our race, skin color, being short or tall, or any other attributes uniquely separate us from others? The answer to these and many more is a definite “No”. We are essentially was thrown out into this world without free will and only by chance or destiny. Some might say that after we are born and when we gain a cognitive perception, then we have a free will to choose. But, this argument basically is wrong. The choices that we make have a direct relation to our view about the world around us, and this outlook as we discussed above was made without our consent. According to science, our genes and our early environment shape our perception in a particular way. When we grow up it appears to us that we make our own choices but the fact is that we make choices according to what or who we are and of what our fundamentals are made of. Of course people change with experience or age but even these changes are programmed in our genes and that particularity changes us differently. If two individual are confronted with a disaster or a disappointment, these individuals react to their experiences according to their inherited make up. In such a situation one might become suicidal and depressed, while the next person might choose to face up to the challenge and fight on. Beside, if there is an all knowing and all-powerful god who obviously knows what is going to happen in the future, then the concept of free will is totally meaningless. This is a philosophical argument that has baffled the philosophers during all ages that is yet to be resolved. The question is if god knows what is going to happen in the future then how it is possible to change it. Because if one can change the future that god is already aware of its outcome, then god becomes a liar and as a consequence cannot be all knowing god or God for that matter. According to quantum physics, future, past and present are not linear quantities as we perceive them to be but they exists all at once in the fabric of time and space continuum. We have free will as much as a person being locked up in a room with a small hole to outside might have. This person can move around this room and then look through this hole on the wall to observe a series of passing cars. If three cars representing past, present, and future are passing in front of the observer inside this room, this observer sees only one car at each instant of time. Therefore, for him the events are linear coincidences, while the observer who is outside of this room and can see all three cars at the same time and together, the future is already there and cannot be changed.

Pedeka	04 Apr 2002
Some people hold with the theory that before we are born we choose what life we are going to enter. Read the Celestine Prophesies. Personally I belive in something in between free will and predestiny. I firmly belive that each of us is on this planet for a purpose. It might be a large life long mission or it could be a single moment that everything in your life led up to you being in a single situation. Im not sure what my purpose is. I do know that when I am not heading in the right direction "life" sure does let me know and shoves me back on track. Pedeka

mehrdad	04 Apr 2002
Interesting theory, according to this, then people choose to be born cripple or blind or “ugly”… but the question is why? Why people choose the kind of life they choose to be in? About the mixture of free will and destiny, there are many arguments that can oppose this philosophy. If you are black, white, Asian, ugly, beautiful, outgoing, inwardly and on and on, then your selections in life are totally dependent on these inheritance attributes. Another example, those whose a member of their family was massacred in September 11 incident; their life totally was changed outside their choice and free will. Let us say this terrorist act was an act of destiny but where is the free will part of this equation. If a wife, a husband, or a child has lost someone in that act of destiny, now they have a totally different set of choices that are totally different from the set that they had before this predestine situation occurred. In a sense, the new set of choices is forced on such an individual, so these are not really free choices but choices that are predestine. If it rain outside, an act of destiny as far as our selection is concerned, this act of nature might force one to dress differently than if it wasn’t raining. In another word, we are forced to make choices because of circumstances that are totally out of our control, so these choices are also out of our control. What I am trying so hard to convey is the fact that if you believe in destiny then you cannot believe in free will too. They cannot be mixed both at the same time since the existence of one means that the other cannot be valid.

purplelady	04 Apr 2002
merhdad, you make an interesting argument. In fact , that's probubly the best argument for non-free will that I've ever heard! I Do see both sides of this argument. However, I don't agree with you. But you do make a good argument for it! I still believe in free will however. I think that it often does seem to us that we really have no other choice, other than the ones we make. It really does seem that way. However , we actually make choices All The Time. Many , every single day. Those choices have led us to exactly where we are. "If God knows what is going to happen in the future, then how is it possible to change it" I guess I really do believe in physics when it comes to that. Perhaps there isn't one future but many to chose from. Maybe God can see all the futures but it is up to us to chose one. You really should read "Conversations with God" part 3 I think it is ,has a very interesting explaination of all this! As far as people born a certain way , their genetics , their parents etc, Some people believe that the soul choses all of this before it is born . How could one prove or disprove this anyhow? Just because you do not consciously remember doesn't mean that you don't have a soul or spirit that chose your birth circumstances and many other things that you are not conscious of. I think I agree that destiny and free will do not make an easy mix, I think! I agree that many things affect what a person will choose. However I still believe that there is choice no matter who we are or what the circumstances. But I admit, some choices seem much much more likely than others! One Could argue that if it rains outside , you Could put on a raincoat and carry an umbrella OR you do actually Have the choice to run out into the rain in your underwear like a fool !!!

Zhritza	04 Apr 2002
I love it when things come to a head and "get real." :TJUDG My belief system has become quite a mishmash, so hopefully whatever I type now won't be totally incohesive. First of all, I believe in ultimate free will because I don't think I could function if I believed otherwise. I need that hope. Simultaneously, I have survived a couple of things that could very easily have killed me, and I have often a) felt like I couldn't have avoided them, that I was completely helpless to them; and b) that surviving them has made me what I am, and they must have happened for a reason, so that I could become a more complete and helpful person, and could learn to truly value and enjoy life. These two gut feelings are frequently at odds with each other, but they also are a compromise when taken together. I don't want to be stuck in victimhood all my life, but I don't want to try to be superhuman and do everything, either. I have to find a middle ground. I also believe in reincarnation. There is no religious foundation for this in my belief system. I was raised Jewish, and (aside from the Orthodoxy) we don't really have heaven, hell and Satan, but there is this vague notion that once you die you go to be with God as long as you've been a mensch. My belief in reincarnation is an instinctive and guttural thing. It may have developed as a coping mechanism, I don't know. Anyway, as it relates to this thread, I feel that people who suffer greatly -- are physically incapacitated, in constant pain, etc. -- are very old souls who are enduring their last trials before final ascendancy to, uh, whatever comes after reincarnation - melding with the universe's energy, perhaps, in a way that is more complete than the way we're part of it now. I feel that in life we are always potentially ascending to a life better lived, and similarly, our souls are on an ascending path through time. I have read pretty much nothing on Buddhism or Hinduism; I don't know how this connects with those beliefs, I believe these things because my gut tells me to. The most complete free will we have is within ourselves, and this counts for a lot. Each person's individual reality has tremendous validity and power. There are wonderful and horrible examples of this when we look at people who are leaders. Look at what Martin Luther King's internal reality enabled him to do, and look at what Hitler's became. As above, so below. We are largely shaped by outside factors as we grow up, but once we are adults, I believe we are completely responsible for who and what we are. But, again, I don't dare believe otherwise; if I didn't have this faith in humanity's potential, I'd never leave my apartment. The fact that some of us believe in semi-predestination, and that that is very real and solid for those of us, is further proof of the ultimate sway we hold within ourselves. You can believe that a higher power enabled that in you, or you can believe that humanity's greatness is self-contained. Either way I feel that the power is evident. So, if tarot feels like destiny to you, it is. If it feels like a game, it is. Et cetera.

Jenny-Li	05 Apr 2002
So let's see if I can make sense to my thoughts on this Philisophical level in English. It's my first time, so go easy on me, OK? :D Pedeka: Celestine Prophecies... It does ring a bell, but I can't place it - might be that I haven't heard of it in English - what is it? I'm very interested, any idea where I can find more info? (Doesn't have to be Swedish - I think I can manage with the English one... And sorry if the question is stupid...) Mehrdad: A year ago, your arguments could definitely have been mine. Every single one of them. Now? Now I'm not that sure anymore...! I don't remember exactly when or how I heard about people believing we've chosen our life before we're even born, but I do recall protesting most vividly against such a proposterous idea. Who'd ever come up with such a thing?? Then I gave it some time, and some thought, and I met with a woman who manages to me a psychic (with a really REALLY far-out story, I can tell you guys that...!) and still a very "earthy" person. (Which is probably why I instantly felt so connected with her - a flimsy, airy character would probably just have put me off the whole thing - but that's just me...! :) ) That's when I started to see connections in life and universe that had never before occurred to me, and I started thinking "...Maybe..." I'm not a religiuos person, that is I do not believe in religion as such. Religion is always man-made, and as such none of the ones we can come up with is better or more right than any other. But the way I see it God is there, inside of us, the whole time. He or she or whatever is the right pronoun (...!) is a part of every choice we make, and there I agree with Purplelady; there are loads of them, most of them we don't even think about, but they all play their part in shaping our next step, and next, and the one after that... I find the thought that my soul at one point in time took a good look (??) at itself and thought, "I'd better get down there again, and this time I should be an insecure, common and worries girl in a cold country - because that will sure teach me something useful", very comforting. It does matter what I do, but even if I may not be able to figure out why things end up the way they do, I can be assured there IS a point there, deep down, somewhere. Why would anyone choose to be born crippled, poor, starving, sick or just plain ugly? Well, those things matter to the physical creatures we are here and now, but before we came here – maybe those issues aren’t so important at all? Maybe (and this is a big one, at least it was to me), maybe one lifetime isn’t such a big deal in the long run. I mean life is sacred, and as such a VERY big deal, but what if Life’s greatness is found not in what we usually tend to look for in a “good life”? Maybe even a crippled person’s life can be as full as a life can be, only on a level that isn’t obvious to us here and now? A lot of what I have written now corresponds with what others have written too, I hope I’ve been able to add something… And if anything sticks out and seems odd or disrespectful or something, please ask about it, because in that case I definitely didn’t mean it to come out that way! Love, light!

aeonx	05 Apr 2002
Greetings all. I do agree, this is a very interesting discussion! It's actually so interesting and fascinating, that I would use several pages to argue for my views. *l* So, I'm not going to. :) Pedeka: the Celestine Prophecies? Please tell me more about them, sounds like something I would enjoy. However, I do have some kind of 'bible'. It's "Conversations with God" part 1 (Donald Walsch). This book changed my entire perception of the world. I would not call it a bible in that I stricktly follow everything he (and He :) ) has written, but it was a light in a search of a Greater Meaning. I am not yet sure what and who God is. Or Allah or the Lifeforce or the Goddess if you will. But I've begun my journey to find out, and I'm much more secure now than ever. Ooooops. I just started rambling off like I was afraid of. *s* I'll stop here.

Jenny-Li	05 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by aeonx However, I do have some kind of 'bible'. It's "Conversations with God" part 1 (Donald Walsch). Yeah, I'm reading that book too - you guys could probably tell from what I wrote. Haven't finished it yet though, it takes some processing to get the ideas into place - I can only read 20 pages or so at a time, then I have to put it a way for a while...! :) But as said, it's a book that really makes you think about things! Jenny :)

kayne	05 Apr 2002
We are delt a hand of cards. We choose how to play them. We sometimes influence how others play their cards and sometimes they influence how we play ours. We don't choose the cards we are delt... are they 'meant' for us or is it random? (I haven't got all the answers...)

MeeWah	05 Apr 2002
Greetings, All~& WOW!! I am offline for a few hours & come back to find a meaty discussion! O goody! Seriously, now. As Purplelady stated, Mehrdad has given the most convincing argument for his position. I am addressing only a portion of his post. I believe in the concept of reincarnation & the concept of free will. They work hand-in-hand. 'Tis not so much the Buddhist faith of my parents that influences this belief as much as I knew before school age & learned to speak English. Basically, the concept holds that the soul is cognizant of its Karma or those aspects that need work &/or balance. Thus it chooses the appropriate circumstances in which to incarnate. The choice encompasses such details as the parents, the culture, etc, which only provide the *framework* for "lessons" & applications. There are inter-related understandings or agreements amongst the participant souls that interact directly with each other--such as between parents & offspring. That is why most of the folk one meets in the course of the life may be somewhat familiar, & includes the more problematic relationships--or especially those of that ilk! The dynamics of certain relationships have their origins in past associations. Accordingly, the "talents" with which one is apparently "born with" harken back to the accumulated knowledge of lives past. There can be an instinctive recognition of situations & people during the course of life, with a tendency to gravitate towards those individuals, interests or concerns whose origins are connected with one's own associations. There is group karma, where numbers of individuals will congregate in certain areas to work either independently or together for a common goal.

MeeWah	05 Apr 2002
Tarot serves as a "framework". A means of accessing knowledge & guidance of those life's lessons that must be met. It is in the active participation or working of those lessons or aspects that learning is achieved & knowledge can be gained. Knowledge in & of itself is naught unless assimilated & applied. The "sin" of ommission moreorless describes this. It is in the attempts to apply that knowledge that one achieves further understanding. A fine-tuned understanding includes the understanding of responsibilities--that of Cause & Effect; Action & Consequences. & that is where wisdom lies, in the perception & discernment of one's own part in the greater scheme.

Original Destiny	05 Apr 2002
This is the THIRD time of trying to reply to your posting..My internet provider keeps cutting me off and i loose the reply when i re connect....OK I'll be brief...I do believe that we have choice and freedom of choice...it is what makes us human... I am the product of millions of years of growth and development...I am the culmination..of my ancesoral past,,,the end product... this is not arrogance..we are all end products.. Since the moment of my birth I have been making choices...I as a human have the natural urge to survive...the ability to make choices gives me the ultimate survival tool...We as humans are unique...no other organism has as much freedom of choice as us ...thats why we are so successful..We have the ability to choose..we can be benificial to the world or...destructive...kill for no apparent reason..torture..destroy...it is CHOICE that gives us this ability ...Freewill is a double edged sword...we have the choice of how we wield it..Nature doesn't create destructive organisms...if it has then they have destroyed themselves...Human=freewill

Kiama	05 Apr 2002
Right, there's some pretty well-argued points here! Here's a couple more takes... 1) In response to the 'God is omnipotent', therefoe knows what is gonna happen, so we can't change it.... Basic ssumption #1: Time is linear Basic assumption #2: God exists Basic assumption #3: We, as human beings, can understand all the qualities of God. Probs: We are finite beings, and therefore have no grounds or proof to say that God is any of the things we say He is. We have no comparison to make with him, so we cannot understand what Omnipotence means, let alone apply the label to Him! Many theories say that time is not liear. Some say spiral, some circular, some conical.... Answer: God is outside Time, and his knowledge of events, and our changing of them are not affected by him. We are looking at this problem from a human perspective of time, but we forget that God is outside time, and thus we still have free will. (Its a bit difficult to imagine, but please try!) 2) Quantum Physics Quantum Physics and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle! Wonderful tool when arguing against Pre-destination and non-free will. Science has proven that the firing of neurons from the brain is totally random, and occurs at near-Quantum speeds. We cannot possibly know the velocity AND position of any particle at the same time. Considering particles are the basic foundation for everything in the Universe, and considering the fact that their position and velocity cannot be known at the same time, nothing in the Universe can be pre-destined,or predicted, due to the chaotic nature of particles, and thus the maeup of the Universe! Now, from a moral standpoint: To say that nothing in this Universe can be chosen, and that humans have no free will, is denying that any criminal is actually guilty! There was a lawyer called Clarence Darrow, who was defending two guys who had murdered aother guy. They were up for the Death Sentence, but Darrow managed to get them off and they only got a Life Sentence, by saying that they were pre-destined to do what they did, by the way they were brought up, by their genes etc.... If we all accept that we have no free will then our judicial system falls apart. People who commit crimes are blameless, cuz 'they couldn't help it'.

MichaelS	05 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by mehrdad In this forum or in some of the books printed about Tarot, people are making this assumption that the future is not carved in stone and depending on one’s action the future might be changed. Tarot writers speculate that the future is hallways with many side doors that can be chosen through the individual’s choose of an action. However, the facts about the natural being do not support such a supposition. This may be a bit long, but... Quote: How many of us choose our parents, the country or the environment that we were born into? How many can claim the genetic make up that form them, physically and mentally, was engineered according to their own choosing? Did we select our race, skin color, being short or tall, or any other attributes uniquely separate us from others? The answer to these and many more is a definite “No”. We are essentially was thrown out into this world without free will and only by chance or destiny. Actually, many who believe in reincarnation would say that we did choose each of these things. The question of "WHY would we choose to be..." was raised in the thread. The answer: lessons that we need to learn. The Cosmic needs balance; mistakes made in one life need compensation - for learning, not retribution - in the next. We need to put ourselves in a position where we can learn. Quote: When we grow up it appears to us that we make our own choices but the fact is that we make choices according to what or who we are and of what our fundamentals are made of. See above. What limitations there are to our choices may have been made before birth. Quote: Of course people change with experience or age but even these changes are programmed in our genes and that particularity changes us differently. If two individual are confronted with a disaster or a disappointment, these individuals react to their experiences according to their inherited make up. In such a situation one might become suicidal and depressed, while the next person might choose to face up to the challenge and fight on. This requires no metaphysics, only developmental psychology. While there is some influence on our personality from genetic factors, the vast majority comes from developmental (e.g. life factors) This is why cloning a person won't give you a real duplicate of the person. Quote: Beside, if there is an all knowing and all-powerful god who obviously knows what is going to happen in the future, then the concept of free will is totally meaningless. Apples and oranges. If I know what someone is going to do (as parents frequently do with their children - good analogy when speaking of God), that in no way changes the fact that they choose what to do - unless I get directly involved. An all knowing God is not necessarily changing the choices you make. That He knows the choices you will make doesn't change the fact that they are *YOUR* choices. ---Michael

.dc	05 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by mehrdad Interesting theory, according to this, then people choose to be born cripple or blind or “ugly”… but the question is why? Why people choose the kind of life they choose to be in? i know i'm joining in a bit late... however, i wanted to answer these questions. mehrdad, i agree with you on many of your thoughts. however, the reason why one would choose to live a life crippled or blind or ugly is for the experience their spirit gains from living a live with that perception. in a way, this provides an answer to why i had to live a life of HELL. growing up was not easy for me... teased beyond belief. i did nothing to deserve it and it did make me who i am. now why would i want to be this way? i don't... but my spirit choose this life of community hardship to experiment and experience what its like. in a way being teased that badly has made me stronger... i don't rely on others as much as i prolly should, it's driven me to be better and do more than most people prolly do. and it also awakened me to the bigger things out there... spirituality, nature, issues... etc. therefore, in a weird way... our spirits choose what milestones and gifts and flaws we're to live with during this lifetime to seek some knowledge or question of theirs. maybe when we pass from this world into whatever world is next, we'll be blessed with knowing the results. either that or the gods have a sik humor... and in that case, i'm suing them anyhoo when i die. =) blessed be, .dc

Diana	05 Apr 2002
edited

Kiama	06 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Hi Mehrdad! I reckon that we're not going to solve this argument on Aeclectic either! : It has already been answered by Phiosophers! Its in my previous post with reference to God being Omnipotent.... Kiama

Talisman	06 Apr 2002
'Lo all, If you want to ignore all scientific advances, you can have a great agruement about whether or not mice can sponteneously generate in a pile of dirty rags. If you want to argue this question intelligently and in light of scientific discovery, I think the starting point has to be what Kiama has so congently presented. Otherwise, you are in about the position, say, of arguing about the sex life of an amoeba before the invention of the microscope. How can you possibly know what you're talking about? Ah, well, it's all jam that comes to the press, and grist that comes to the mill. We owe much to those scholars who devoted much of their lives attempting to discover how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. Talisman

Kiama	06 Apr 2002
ROFLAMO! Thanks Talisman!

Soraya	09 Apr 2002
Hi everyone, Sorry for joining in late. Work has been pretty manic recently so I only discovered this thread today. Mehrdad's theory is interesting but I agree with Kiama on the point that if there was no free will we could not be held accountable for our actions. Yet we are the choosers and makers of them. Unlike animals we do not follow instincts and act without "knowing" what we are doing or that we are doing it. Therefore I believe that there is no predestination and that we create our own reality every day, every moment. Of course, there are out-side factors which are not subject to our control. Rather, they influence our actions. However, as conscious beings we evaluate each situation and decide what to do within the framework of possibilities which we can determine. So, to take up the example or rain, if it rains we can either stay inside, or go out. If we go out we can use an umbrella or not, we can get wet (and possibly ill) or not. We can bump into someone we know, we can miss a train etc. Whatever we do will have an immediate effect on our own future and to some extent on our environment. If you have seen the movie "Sliding Doors" you will know what I mean. In that movie we get two see two scenarios. In one, the protagonist misses a train, in the other she catches it. We then get to see the consequences of this one, seemingly unimportant event. Her life develops completely differently in the first instance and in the second. I do not believe in reincarnation or in the soul's choosing of a suitable body to live in and I do not believe in God. I do not believe in the other extreme: that we are entirely responsible for our own fate since there are outside circumstances which we by ourselves cannot influence. I believe that we are given a certain freedom of choice, depending on the situation, and that by making hundreds of choices everyday we shape our existence and that of others. Where does the Tarot come into this: I think that our conscious minds have made us suppress some of our instinctual knowledge and that the cards help us tap into this "collective unconsciouness". This is what I use them for: to tell me what I already know, or sense, but am not conscious of. Greetings to all of you.

Zhritza	10 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Soraya I do not believe in reincarnation or in the soul's choosing of a suitable body to live in and I do not believe in God. {...} Where does the Tarot come into this: I think that our conscious minds have made us suppress some of our instinctual knowledge and that the cards help us tap into this "collective unconsciouness". I am migrating more and more toward this sort of mindset. I'm starting to think that the accoutrements of religion and "faith" that I retain - faith in humans having souls, and in the existence of a higher power - are things that my psyche needs for now in order to be happy (or maybe just un-sad) enough to go through life as a functional and hopefully somewhat useful person. The suspicion that I will eventually not cling to these things is steadily gaining ground within me. I don't mean to suggest that religion and spirituality are a crutch for everyone, but for me I think they may be, in the sense that my ultimate core beliefs might be emerging as different from those with which I grew up.

mehrdad	11 Apr 2002
Dear purpleladay, You might be correct to assume that there might be different futures to choose from, but this still would not negate the fact that god knows which of these futures would be decided by us. God should know that because he being a god is not limited to time or space as we are. The question is not really a matter of quantity but the outcome that although for us with our three-dimensional existence remains a mystery but almighty God does not have our limitations. There is no way for me to disprove the concept of souls choosing their destiny and this can be as valuable theory as any other theory, however, it is difficult to accept that a soul chooses to become a mass murderer, for example. Anyhow if we accept that soul chooses its pass, then our life and our destiny are pre-prepared packages that are in display somewhere in abyss for selection. In another word, as a whole our life has already been laid out and we only select the type of life we want and not its contents. As you pointed out in case of rain, one can do anything one likes to do, but on does not. If you are English gentlemen (a predetermined attribute) you never go out in your underwear while raining, unless circumstances that is outside your control forces you to do so.

mehrdad	11 Apr 2002
Dear Qolus, I must admit that I like your optimistic ideas, since essentially I am also an idealistic individual who likes to beilieve in free choice and self-determination. However, my own experiences in life have proved to me that I am what destiny wanted me to become. I have had many dreams that have come true exactly scene by scene and word by word which cannot be explained away by mere chance or coincidences. Perhaps some of us have predestined life and some of us were born with free will, I do not know. I only can speak about my own experience in life not someone else’s. I do strongly believe in destiny but I am still an active person and do not sit around in the place of my residence. I accept and take responsibility about the consequences resulting from the choices that I make. My beilieve has not made me a lazy person but only a philosophical one. Believing in destiny has opened a pass for me to relate my existence to an ominous power and that feeling has given me a sense of relieves. I do not become mad, angry, or sad about what is happening in my life since I am sure that eventually nothing really mater. There is this story that one day a man came to his house and found the angle of death waiting for him. The angle of death opened his mouth to tell the man something, but before he can outer any word the man ran away out of fear. The man traveled for seven days and seven nights running away to a city called ‘Harat’, and then he went to a hotel called ‘Safid’ and rented the room number ‘5’. When the man opened the door he saw the angle of death that told him with smile, “why did you ran away?” “When I saw you in your house I was going to let you know that in seven days and seven nights I will meet you in the town of Harat in a hotel called Safid in room number 5 to take away your life.” My point of telling this story is to crystallize this believe that no matter what one might do, one cannot change the outcome even if one changes the path.

mehrdad	11 Apr 2002
Jenny-Li, I am very interested to know what happened to you during the course of the year that changed your believe. Please, if you like, explain the main events that caused your altering your perception about philosophy of life. About the existence of God, there is a philosophical concept called the “intelligence of a Watchmaker”, which goes something like this: Let us imagine that you and I are walking somewhere when we suddenly observe a stone lain in our path. You might ask me how the stone came to be there. I might possibly answer that it could have been laid there forever. This answer might not be accurate but it is an acceptable possibility and you are not going to question the possibility of such a thing. However, suppose we had found a "Watch" upon the ground, and you might be inquiring how the watch happened to be in that place. Obviously I cannot give you the same answer that I gave you concerning the stone, since a watch, contrary to stone, could not been there for ever and by itself. Why do you think this is so? Why should not this answer serve for the watch as well as for the stone? Why is it not as admissible in the second case as in the first? The answer is obvious, when we come to inspect the watch, we perceive (what we could not discover about stone) that its several parts are framed and put together for a PURPOSE. This watch so formed and adjusted as to produce motion, and that motion so regulated as to point out the hour of the day. If the different parts had been differently shaped from what they are, of a different size from what they are, or placed after any other manner, or in any other order, than that in which they are placed, either no motion at all would have been carried on in the machine, or none which would have answered the use that is now served by it. Looking at this watch and its integrated design would assure us that this watch contrary to that stone has had a maker and could not just be there by itself. By just looking at the watch, it becomes clear to us that there was a time that this watch had not been in existence and someone made it sometime before. We look at the watch and we accept that it should have had a creator even though we have never seen a watchmaker neither seen a watch being made before. We have never seen the artist that designed and made this watch but still we accept that such an artist exist since we see its creation. My opinion about science has always been that it is not the best tool to prove the agency of an intelligent Creator; but science (Astronomy for example) proves the magnificence of his operation.

MichaelS	11 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by mehrdad Dear purpleladay, There is no way for me to disprove the concept of souls choosing their destiny and this can be as valuable theory as any other theory, however, it is difficult to accept that a soul chooses to become a mass murderer, for example. I don't think it's so much that the soul personality chooses to become a mass murderer as it chooses a life that *CAN* (not necessarily *WILL*) teach certain lessons. That the lesson may not be learned in a life is always a possibility - in which case it needs to try again.

Kiama	11 Apr 2002
Mehrdad: Ah, Paley's Watch! Loved that! However, it still cannot go any way to proving the existence of a Creator. This is why: 1) To liken our Earth to a mechanical object other than a watch really misunderstands the Earth, and thus makes what Paley says ecologically un-valid. Our Earth is nothing like a watch! 2) Of course our Earth shows sigsn of being designed: For there cannot actually be any Earth which does not work perrfectly and so synchornisitically, cuz that Earth would not survive! There may have been thousands of possible Earths, but 999 of them had the wrong conditions, or simply didn't work. The 1 that did work, the only one which worked properly with all its bits influencing each other, with the temperatures and speed of imposion from the Big Bandg exactly perfect, is the only one that survived. Survival of the Fittest. Am I explaining this okay? Kiama

Diana	11 Apr 2002
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mehrdad	11 Apr 2002
Kiama, Instead of a mechanical instrument as James Lovelock has presented in his “Gaja hypothesis”, Earth could be a live organism itself. We could be living on a life form called Earth within a living population of galaxies. Your argument is valid and my point of citrating from Paley was not to prove the existence of a creator. Believing in God is not a matter for a discipline but a substance of heart. In my opinion, God only can be proved through fate and personal experiences not by force of a logical argument.

mehrdad	11 Apr 2002
Dear Diana, You are right and stone also have a design. However, in human sense and experience a stone is natural but a watch is not. If you observe a stone in the beach you are not going to question the fact that the stone might not had a designer but if you see a watch in the same beach you might be wondering who was the builder. Here the argument is not really about stones or watches but about how one can exists naturally, stone in this case, but the other being an artificial creation, as a watch, should have a designer. Another example could be a piece of cloud in sky and a moving airplane beside it. If you look up and observe such scenery, you can understand that the cloud is a natural phenomenon, so there is no question about a designer, but the airplane is not, therefore the airplane should had a maker. I hope this helped to make sense out of this confusing argument and if it is not please let me know. Thank you for you know what.

mehrdad	11 Apr 2002
Dear MeeWah, Reincarnation can answer a lot of question, for example, why some people are deformed, poor, blind and so on. But this philosophy has bad sociological influences, like the untouchables in India. Let me tell you a true story that happened in my own family and I can testify to its truth. In Islam and Koran the reincarnation is strongly apposed. And Allah pronounces continuously that if one dies there is no coming back in any form. Many years ago under such a cultural and religious background, my cousin, a young twenty-one years bride, died after the injection of a wrong medicine by her doctor. Years later, her sister dreamed her dead sister brought her the news that she was coming back in the form of a baby. In her sister’s dream, my deceased cousin provided an address, a phone number and the date of her deliverance to this world. So the next day my cousin called the phone number given to her by her sister in the dream and amazingly she found out that there was a pregnant bride in that house and she was about to deliver a baby. A baby girl was born to this family at exact date and time that was pre-reported by my departed cousin.

MeeWah	11 Apr 2002
Mehrdad: WOW!! Has your cousin followed up on the child since its birth? Your account reminds me of a book I read years ago. My memory may be faulty, but I think it was "20 Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation" by Ian Stevenson. One of the cases mentioned concerned a young boy in New Dehli, India. He puzzled & then alarmed his parents with his insistance of memories of another life--as a man with a family. Eventually, the details were checked out. He was able to direct the researchers to the house. The residents were a family with a few children whose father had died. The boy identified the wife from the former life & all the children; however, he did not know the youngest child. The wife was pregnant with that child when her husband died. For me, reincarnation makes perfect sense. I suppose it is influenced by past life memories since I was a child as well as by my perception of human life. Even without the memories, the latter carries weight. I was brought up Buddhist, which lends a certain influence (Catholism & Judaism have been strong influences also) in the understanding. BTW: I have "recognized" some people in my life as being from former lives, & vice versa, to pin-pointing what life. I have not sought the information, but it was "given". Of course, I have no way to prove any of it, but I feel no need to do so.

mehrdad	11 Apr 2002
MeeWah Actually the family in question was so impressed by the whole thing that they have accepted my cousin as a surrogate mother for the child. By the way they also named the child, Soror, which was the name of my deceased cousin. I also have had the experiences of familiarity toward places and people that I had never known before “In this life.” I think the reincarnation makes a lot of sense, but the question is how this knowledge can help us in our current life. Can we somehow add the experiences that we have gained from our previous existence to enhance our current life? Is there a way to stimulate the previous life memories so it can be used for our benefit in this life?

Zhritza	12 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by mehrdad I have had many dreams that have come true exactly scene by scene and word by word which cannot be explained away by mere chance or coincidences. Perhaps some of us have predestined life and some of us were born with free will, I do not know. I don't think that one rules out the other; I too have had experiences of apparent destiny, but I think these examples of psychic power or synchronicity, clearly not coincidences at all, still do not necessarily mean that there is a God. Also, the fact that some things were meant to happen doesn't mean that it was a divine power that made them happen. There are other potential explanations: there may be a mass consciousness, a subconscious connection to each other through different areas of time and space that we all have which enables flashes of clairvoyance and other "supernatural" events. Our brains may have senses and methods of perception that we do not fully understand yet; for example, I have had numerous experiences where my subconscious has clearly taken care of a problem I've been having when my conscious mind was not helping. I think there is a broad range of possible explanations for things that we perceive as divine or predestined. The existence of deity is one possibility of many. I'm not ruling anything out, at least not at this early stage in my life.

MeeWah	12 Apr 2002
Mehrdad: That is wonderful that the baby's family is willing to embrace such a wholistic approach! Truly, that speaks of a faith in things unseen. That baby is blessed to be born into an open family (although I am sure there are other considerations at work here, too). There are ways to stimulate past life memories though I do not look to practice any--such as past-life regression via hypnosis. I do not know I can offer an academic or spiritual explanation of why some people retain some memory of past lives & why others do not. There are many who believe in reincarnation or a deity without ever seeing "evidence" of either. It may fall under "faith", that quiet belief in an unseen quality that nonetheless still exists. Perhaps the realization that one has had previous lives refers to the continuity of life; that it is a never-ending cycle. It may also refer to that individual's particular "lessons". In Nature, the rhythmic cycle of seasons indicate that from death new life begins. For example, precipitation such as rain or snow is recycled moisture. It is part of the life cycle of this planet. Since we are also residents of this planet, it makes sense that our individual cycle follows a similar pattern of birth, death & regeneration. In addition, it makes sense for there to be countless opportunities for a soul to learn & to develop rather than be limited to the finite concept of one life per. There is just too much knowledge to encompass in a mere one lifetime alone! Past life memories suggest that such knowledge is part of a greater pattern &/or consciousness--such as a collective consciousness that Qolus refers to & in which I believe as well. From which follows that an expanding knowledge is not only accessible, but inherent within us. It could also be said that we are godlings in the making.

Diana	12 Apr 2002
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Diana	12 Apr 2002
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mehrdad	12 Apr 2002
Qolus I am not talking about intuitions, synchronizations, or what our unconscious might be telling us. Let me give you an example by describing a very strange incident that I had just two weeks ago. Two weeks ago I had a dream that I was driving in an unfamiliar street but could not find the address that I was looking for. Then after driving around for some time I went to a restaurant to get the direction. In there I saw a woman who had a very bad cut over her upper lips, she gave me direction and also a free coffee. After I arrived to the destination someone in my dream told me to go to the second door in my right. I followed the way and entered a room full of disabled students and many more teachers standing around. The head teacher showed me a fat handicapped little girl with a blue shirt on and the teacher told me that this child is my responsibility. Two days after that dream, I received a call from Kelly services informing me that, if I am interested, I can go to teach in a school at the suburb for just a day. Because I needed the money so I accepted the temporary position and the next day I went there. Although I had the driving direction and I derived around and around for many miles, but could not find the street that the school was located in. Out of fear that I might get there late, I stopped in a coffee shop in the area to ask for the address. The cashier in the coffee shop was a lady with a very bad cut over her upper lips and after directing me toward my destination she suddenly and unexpectedly offered me a free coffee, which I accepted with amazement. When I arrived at school, I went to the office of principal and asked a lady there about the position and she told me to go to the second door in my right to get into the classroom. When I arrived into the classroom I saw as many students there as teachers. In there I was told that all these kids had Autism so for each student there needs to be one or more teachers to attend to their needs. The head teacher in that classroom showed me a fat little girl with a blue shirt on and then she told me that this little girl going to be my responsibility for the day. I do not know how this can be explained other than the fact that the future is already there and in time we would get to it no matter what.

MeeWah	12 Apr 2002
Mehrdad: I see what you are saying--I think! It is reasonable to see your dream as confirmation of a future already in place. It is also a precognitive dream, one that gives you fore-knowledge. Since you have been seeking reassurance & giuidance, it seems to be Universe's way of reassuring you; that things are not so bleak & that employment is available. Remember (elsewhere) I referred to a temporary position that may lead to other things? You could have decided to *not* take the one-day job, despite the need. Since you have, you have also made yourself known to a possible employment contact, from which other doors may open for you. I experienced precognitive dreams since childhood often enough that they were more the norm than not. Back then, I thought everyone had such dreams! As children, my mother encouraged us to tell of our dreams; especially the "bad" dreams or the nightmares to dissipate their energies. I do not recall of my sisters speaking of any, but my brother also had such dreams. Since then, I tend to see them as messages from Universe; as preparation for what may lie ahead rather than as indications of a fixed future.

Zhritza	12 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by mehrdad I do not know how this can be explained other than the fact that the future is already there and in time we would get to it no matter what. Yes, I can see that this is very likely; but that does not prove the presence of a God. When I talked about the mass consciousness idea, I meant to say more clearly that our mass consciousness may be able to link our minds with each others' through past, present and future.

MeeWah	13 Apr 2002
Qolus: In Spirit, time does not exist in the linear fashion as we know it. All time exists simultanteously as one time or as "now". This makes sense in terms of a cosmic or collective consciousness which is outside the realm of the finite. By accessing that pool of knowledge or records (sometimes referred to as the Akashic Recorda), it is conceivable that one could obtain information out of the ordinary scope. Tarot can be used towards this access of information. Besides for the purpose of guidance & self-knowledge, its divinatory quality is a portion of the Tarot experience; however, I am not advocating such use purely for such a purpose. In & of itself, it can create more confusion rather than clarity.

The Free will, destiny, and Tarot thread was originally posted on 04 Apr 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.