Now is that Justice ?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 Apr 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Lion-O	06 Apr 2002
Hi guys, I've seen a lot of people 'studying' the (individual) cards (even read something about a teacher who tries to motivate people in doing this every now and then) so when I sat alone on the couch yesterday (you prob. know those moments when your S.O. goes off to bed and you have the next moments all to yourself) and due to the lack of anything interesting on the telli I grabbed my Rider deck and started looking at some cards, and then :TJUST struck me. I took a closer look and indeed, my observation was correct. So to be sure I waited untill the next morning and now I took another very close look... I noticed he's sitting in a chair, the sword in one hand, a scale in the other. But he's not blindfolded, and in order to be just you can't make exceptions for anyone IMO. The opposite would be the 2 of swords IMO. This lady is blindfolded but has her mind set up on punishment, hence the swords. So now I wonder if there isn't any justice within the Rider Waite deck? ;)

amyel	06 Apr 2002
...Justice *can not* be blind! My take on it is that the sword can be used to impose justice or to enforce it...and the scales are *weighing* both sides. I agree that justice must treat both sides fairly & equally and in cases of law, apply the law correctly. But how can the judge do this when blindfolded? In the Two of Swords, she is blindfolded because she has decided what she is going to do - regardless, perhaps of what is *right* or *wrong*. Historically, this has many examples: breadstealers sent to penal colonies; raped women being killed because they "allowed" a man to touch them, etc.....in these cases, the punishment was determined regardless of the circumstances surrounding the "crime". Not even an eye for an eye - just "Premartial sex is punishable by death" or "Stealing equals exile". Just a different opinion....can't wait to read others' replies! P.S. My ascendent is in Libra.....so I feel fairly passionate about "Justice"...LOL....

Malachite	06 Apr 2002
I think that the blinfold is a bad metaphor for an important point of the justice card, that you have to step back from personal opinions in order to make a fair judgement... Although everything has to be taken into account, your own heart's opinion may not be the one you really need... btw..sorry to be so pedantic but..*premartial sex*...sex before war is illegal?..whoah!...;) (sorry amyel...i know what you meant...:))

Marion	06 Apr 2002
Sorry to take this even further off topic... I love some typos, and I agree that premartial sex is a great one. Maybe that is sex before you have a really big fight. This morning a friend of mine was telling me her new boyfriend was a 'certified electrion'. woohoo, is that static electricity with class? I read something about the Justice in Tarot not being blindfolded. I think it is something about it being spiritual justice rather than mundane justice. Sorry, I'll just go and look that up before I make a total fool of myself. Okay... after edit: I also read this somewhere else, but it is the same idea. The legal Justitia was blindfolded to demonstrate that the law does not discriminate and applies to weak and powerful alike. This concept however properly belongs to The Emperor and refers to social justice. Card 11 indicates that the psychic laws of Justice, by which we advance according to our ability to understand the past, depends on our seeing the truth about ourselves and about life. Therefore, the tarot Justitia wears no blindfold.

catboxer	06 Apr 2002
I've never seen Justice wearing a blindfold in any tarot deck, and I think maybe she never does in Italy, where the cards originated, in or out of the deck. The earliest Justice card we know of (from the Visconti-Sforza pack) is mysterious not because she lacks a blindfold, but because she only occupies the bottom 2/3rds of the card. She's sitting under a trefoil arch, and a knight in black armor is riding in a green field above her head. In Italian woodblock decks from later in the 15th century, the knight is gone, but she still sits under an arch. The execution of these cards is generally so crude that the figure is kind of androgynous, but I think it's still a woman. When the cards crossed the Alps into France (maybe about 1600?) the depiction of Justice had traditionally never had a blindfold, so she didn't acquire one then either. One of the most interesting things about this card is that it appears in so many different places in the trump order over the years. In Italian decks it could be VII, or VIII, or XX. The Marseilles order established it more or less permanently at VIII, until AE Waite switched it to the XIth position. The blindfold on sculpted depictions of Justice must be a French, German, or English innovation. I don't really know. Dave B

Original Destiny	07 Apr 2002
I think that Marion has a good point...Different type of Justice...spiritual as upposed to Legal...:TFOOL

amyel	07 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Malachite btw..sorry to be so pedantic but..*premartial sex*...sex before war is illegal?..whoah!...;) (sorry amyel...i know what you meant...:)) Ooops....Now I can't even edit the durn typo....or else all this other fun would be meaningless! :D

Lion-O	07 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by amyel ...Justice *can not* be blind! My take on it is that the sword can be used to impose justice or to enforce it...and the scales are *weighing* both sides. I agree that justice must treat both sides fairly & equally and in cases of law, apply the law correctly. But how can the judge do this when blindfolded? Very true indeed, but I still was wondering which detail in the card would put the focus on that, the part where all sides were treated equally. Still, I agree with you that being blindfolded you can't do much, but then again; that would bring us to the question what the cards present. Just a picture showing a metaphor or a 'real' situation? Thats a part I like about Tarot; it seems endless when it comes to details like this.

MeeWah	08 Apr 2002
Agree with Marion. The beauty of Tarot is its versatility of application of tri-level meanings--spiritual, mental or mundane. The Major Arcana are symbolic representatives of Cosmic Law, or Life Lessons. The primary application is of a metaphysical nature. Justice refers to that spiritual or karmic justice of perfect balance, where the judgement is totally impartial, fair & *all-seeing*. On that level, it does not refer to Man's Law; however, it can refer to the mundane aspects of law or cause & effect/consequences. I have seen a blindfolded woman in flowing robes & holding scales but offhand I do not recall where.

Major Tom	08 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah I have seen a blindfolded woman in flowing robes & holding scales but offhand I do not recall where. There's a statue of her on top of the Old Bailey in London. (British High Court)

MeeWah	08 Apr 2002
Major Tom: Thanks for the reminder--I am referring to a statue I have seen in person. It was a magnificent visual experience & have not forgotten it, though I forgot where.

Diana	08 Apr 2002
edited

Geenius at Wrok	08 Apr 2002
Right. At least post–French Revolution, Lady Justice is always depicted blindfolded to represent her impartiality.

kayne	09 Apr 2002
Ok... as an aside... (And to help me with my latest personal tarot project which I will show you all soon...) If the card Justice was depicted as an 'everyday' person in modern society, who would he/she be? Originally I was going to depict a Lawyer but then this thread really did remind me that Judgement must be impartial and a Lawyer fights for one said... whether they are guilty or not... Not really suitable. These are some ideas I came up with: A Judge... but perhaps I should use a judge for Judgement(?); A Police woman; A Juror... Any other ideas?

Geenius at Wrok	09 Apr 2002
A judge makes the most sense to me. Judgment is another concept entirely. One alternative idea for Justice is a sports referee.

meatbox666	15 Apr 2002
Or....... Justice can be anyone...in any field....look at the card next to justice...say like the moon......it could be a really fair homemaker who baby sits other peoples children and her prices a reasonable maybe........

sarahenglish	15 Apr 2002
I have just finished the Major Arcana Section in Rachel Pollack's awesome book, "78 Degrees of Wisdom." I remembered this thread when I got to the Justice Card. Here is what she says: "The legal Justitia, to give her her Latin name, was blindfolded to demonstrate that the law does not discriminate and applies to weak and powerful alike. The principle of "social" justice however, properly belongs to the Emperor, directly above Justice. Card 11 (Justice) indicates that the psychic laws of Justice, by which we advance according to our ability to understand the past, depends on seeing the truth about ourselves and about life. The Tarot Justitia, therefore, wears no blindfold." page 91. Hope that is helpful! I highly reccommend this book!

jmd	29 Apr 2002
I have only just come across this thread, and thought I would also add a short comment. From my recollection of art history, Justitia was always represented without hoodwink until the late 16th century... ie, until the renaissance really kicked in. Before then, the concept was certainly that Justice needed to be fully cognisant of the situation. Following the Renaissance, a slow but progressive and pervasive shift appears to have occured: From then, it wasn't truly Justice which was represented, but really Lady Law. As such, she needs to be blindfolded to hide the apparent differences of station which the person 'charged' may hold: 'the Law applies equally to all' becomes the guiding principle, rather than the older 'justice can only be truthfully applied when all relevent aspects of the situation are properly weighed'. To depict the justice card by a lawyer, in my view, is to depict Law, rather than Justice.

Liliana	29 Apr 2002
I think a Judge should be on Justice (preferably a female one), Judgement could be something more like the guy who chooses whether you get a job or not :THP

kayne	30 Apr 2002
hmmm... Excellent input thankyou! Something for me to think about...

jakyle	06 May 2002
" Karma IS Justice." A friend of mine used to use that phrase all the time. Justice to me means alot of different things, but remember the saying,"love is BLIND?" When "weighing the options," think with your head first. Don't go with what your heart tells you to do necessarily. Make sure you have all the facts first, and don't let your personal feelings get in the way of making the best decision for Justice(card) to be served. Just another way to look at the BLINDFOLD meaning of the card....? By the way, the phrase"Love is Blind,"has 11 letters. GET IT??

The Now is that Justice ? thread was originally posted on 06 Apr 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.