Zodiac signs and tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 18 Apr 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Menmay	18 Apr 2002
I know that each card repesents zodiac signs, but if the querent asks what sign their new lover freind exc. might be how do I tell?? Hold on let me reword this ...each card( wand sword cups..exc ) stands for three zodiac signs how do I pick from those three?? Thank you so much for helping me out.

Kitty	18 Apr 2002
I have often wondered the same thing, but as yet I have been unable to find a way to determine the excat star sign, will be interesting to see if anyone out there knows if it is possible ...................... "went and looked up one of my books" I have looked up one of my tarot books for beginners, it does associate one particular sign for the court cards, but not the pages (don't ask why) Here is what it says: Knight of Cups: Piscean Queen of Cups: Scorpio King of Cups: Cancer Knight of Swords: Gemini Queen of Swords: Aquarius King of Swords: Libra Knight of Wands: Sagittarius Queen of Wands: Leo King of Wands: Aries Knight of Pentacles: Virgo Queen of Pentacles: Taurus King of Pentacles: Capricorn Now this cannot be used as a rule but maybe a guide? I am a cancerian female and consider myself to be like the Queen of Cups and that doesn't fit with this Hmmmm maybe have confused this issue even more? :confused:

DollChica	19 Apr 2002
Well I know that Wands represents Fire signs. As for a card meaning one sign in particular...I dunno :confused: But if what Kitty said is true, it explains exactly who the King of Wands is. That dude shows up in almost every major reading that I do.

Pollux	20 Apr 2002
I don't think I would be capable of answering such question. I have found that my associations with courts and majors don't match those of other people, and, most importantly, Courts for me don't work strictly as SIGN (Sun Sign, this is understood), but rather as an indication of the personality. At times I am a Page of Swords, at times a Queen. In the morning I tend to feel like a Knight of Cups, then a King of Wands... but when I go to bed I turn into a King of Cups. I don't know. I would suggest not taking this associations as a rule at all. Tarots and Astrology get very close at times, yet they are DIFFERENT methods of divination. After all, trust your instinct as a Tarot Reader! Base your answer on what you perceive. :)

Thirteen	20 Apr 2002
It depends on the deck. The Major Arcana matches up to certain signs (Chariot = Cancer, Star = Aquarius), pretty much the same in most decks. BUT the court cards don't. Each creator of each deck makes their own decision on which court card is which Zodiac sign. The only thing they ever seem to agree on is that: cups = water signs pentacles = earth signs wands = fire signs swords = air signs But whether the Queen of Cups is Cancer or Scorpio or Pisces depends on the deck. You can do one of two things. 1) Read the book for your deck. If the book says (or implies) that the Knight of pentacles is Virgo--or if the image of the Knight includes a hint, like say, he's traveling through a field of wheat (symbol of Virgo), then when you use that deck, the Knight of pentacles is Virgo. This means that if you go onto another deck, you again look in the book, examine the cards, and if, this time, your field of wheat happens to be with the King of pentacles, then in THAT deck the King is Virgo, not the Knight who, this time, has a bull on his shield which means he's Taurus instead. OR you can.... 2) Ignore anything the books say or any symbols on the cards to the contrary and make up your own mind about it. Decide that, say, Kings are Cardinal signs, Queens fixed and Knights mutable. And that goes for all decks. So, in every deck, Kings are the inspiration sign (Cancer, Capricorn, Aires, Libra), Queens the stable, fixed, building sign (Scorpio, Taurus, Leo, Aquarius) and Knights the "spread-the-word" sign (Pisces, Virgo, Sag., Gemini). Or however you feel it should be. Up to you which way you want to go. Back to ye-ole trusting your instincts.

Minderwiz	27 Apr 2002
Hi, The above answer is a very good guide. Most decks follow the ideas set down by the Golden Dawn. Their association was: Emperor = Aries Hierophant = Taurus Lovers = Gemini Chariot = Cancer Strength = Leo Justice = Libra Death = Scorpio Temperance = Sagittarius Devil = Capricorn Star = Aquarius JMoon = Pisces They also associated Wands with Fire, Swords with Air, Cups with Water and Pentacles with Earth though some more recent decks reverse the association of Fire and Air. Such as The Celtic Dragon or the Shapeshifter decks. As thirteen points out the sign associations within the court cards differs. The Golden Dawn association has Kings associated with the Fixed Signs (Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius); Queens associated with the Cardinal Signs (Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn) and the Knights associated with the Mutable signs (Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius and Pisces) - The Pages represent the element. I've also come across the reversal of Kings and Queens and the reveral of the allocation to Knights and Pages. It is better to study and examine the cards and their symbols and come to your own interpretation - there is nothing magical about the Golden Dawn's allocation or anyone elses. Personally I feel the King of Cups is more Pisces than either Cancer or Scorpio but I can see elements of all three signs in him. Like thirteen, I would advise you to go on what you feel seems right rather than learn associations by rote and assume it must be true. Blessings Minderwiz

StellaMaris	07 Aug 2002
I was looking at my deck and noticed the Zodiac correspondences of the major Arcana. I saw that some cards at the beginning and ending of the MA were skipped, which seems to make sense considering the order of the signs and the cards they correspond with. Then I saw that the Wheel of Fortune, the Tower, and the Hanged Man were also skipped, in the middle of the whole thing. Does anyone know why this is?

Starfish	07 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by StellaMaris I was looking at my deck and noticed the Zodiac correspondences of the major Arcana. I saw that some cards at the beginning and ending of the MA were skipped, which seems to make sense considering the order of the signs and the cards they correspond with. Then I saw that the Wheel of Fortune, the Tower, and the Hanged Man were also skipped, in the middle of the whole thing. Does anyone know why this is? You are correct! That's because they are represented by a planet rather than an astrological sign. Examples: The Fool :TFOOL - Uranus The Magician :TMAGE - Mercury The High Priestess :THP - Moon The Empress :TEMPS - Venus The Wheel of Fortune :TWHEE - Jupiter The Hanged Man :THANG - Neptune The Tower :TTOW - Mars The Sun :TSUN - Sun Judgment :TJUDG - Pluto The World :TWOR - Saturn Blessings - :THERM Starfish

Keslynn	08 Aug 2002
When dealing with the court cards, I go more by my perception of his/her personality than by exact zodiac sign. For example, the Knight of Swords is sharp both mentally and with his tongue. He has a higher probability of being an Air sign, but really, he could be anybody. As Pollux pointed out, we can manifest various court cards both inside and outside our zodiac element. I, for one, should be the Queen of Wands because I'm a Leo, but I really identify more with the Queen of Swords. Hence it is the Queen of Swords that I use to represent myself most of the time. Sometimes I'm the Knight of Swords though, and then world look out! ;) :TQS Kes

Keslynn	08 Aug 2002
The Queen is (to me) a little more stable than the Knight. The Knight likes to go off on crazy swashbuckling adventures but always in search of truth and justice. The Queen instead uses her sharp mind to administer and help others instead of going off by herself seeking causes and adventures. She doesn't really have a need to be a hero. Both possess the sharp mental powers of the Swords. They just do different things with it. That's my take. :TQS Kes

Starfish	08 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Keslynn The Queen is (to me) a little more stable than the Knight. The Knight likes to go off on crazy swashbuckling adventures but always in search of truth and justice. The Queen instead uses her sharp mind to administer and help others instead of going off by herself seeking causes and adventures. She doesn't really have a need to be a hero. Both possess the sharp mental powers of the Swords. They just do different things with it. That's my take. Great take. I see it the same; :TQS has calm resolve and is ready to meet challenges; :TKNS looks for challenges (I love the description of him as a swashbuckling knight!). :TMAGE Starfish

Jenny-Li	08 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Transitionality what is the difference between the queen of swords and the knight of swords Hi Transitionality, welcome to the forum! If you follow this link http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/basics/index.html you will find Thirteens Tarot Basics, which is a very easy-to-follow guide to the interpretation of each of the cards in the deck! Good luck, see you around! Light and love, Jenny :)

Marion	08 Aug 2002
Hi folks, I moved this thread to Talking Tarot, since Your Readings is the Forum for posting readings for comments and help. :)

amyel	08 Aug 2002
Responding to the original question of this post, I tend to ignore the zodiac signs attached to the cards and instead try to focus more on the personality/qualities attached to the court card. In a similar fashion, I also tend to ignore the traditional ages attached to each court card. Why? Well, as another poster said, her sun sign indicated she should be Q.Wands, but she associates more with the Q. Swords. I find something similar with me: I *should be* the Q. Pentacles, being a Cappy woman over 30, but I associate more with the Q. Wands. Sooooooo, if this is true for me, it may well be true for others, particularly querents. I also happen to think that the qualities of a potential partner are perhaps more important then the sun sign of the person. And finally, in a completely humorous tone, walking up to a potential mate and saying :"Hey baby, what's yer sign?" is so '70's!!!! LOL.

Jewel	08 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Transitionality what is the difference between the queen of swords and the knight of swords (except the testicles obviously) This is a great question and there is an answer that will help understand this, but at the moment I have the elemental order of the court cards all scrambled in my brain so I will need for someone to step in and explain this for me in more detail so that it makes sense. Each court card has an elemental correspondence, for example I believe that fire corresponds to Kings - so the King of wands would be "fire of fire" which would make him extremely passionate and creative. As I think knights correpond with air and queens with earth but I am not sure so I am counting on my fellow aecleticians here to correct or elaborate on this for me as I am away from my books and will not be here for the next few days to expand on it myself. The second thing that is helpful in looking at the differences in the court cards is the type of "action" for lack of a better word is associated with each court card. Knights for example are eager and very action oriented. Again I call on my fellow aecleticians to finish this thought for me as I do not recall the associations for each court card. Well I will stop giving half answers here and hope that someone will complete these thoughts for me. Thanks in advance.

Jewel	08 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by amyel Well, as another poster said, her sun sign indicated she should be Q.Wands, but she associates more with the Q. Swords. I find something similar with me: I *should be* the Q. Pentacles, being a Cappy woman over 30, but I associate more with the Q. Wands. Amyel what is your moon sign? that my be an influencing factor. Per Mary Greer's book, Tarot for Yourself, the card representing your mode of expression is associated with your moon sign. In my case that is very true. My moon sign is Leo which corresponds to the Queen of Wands, defenitly how I express myself and am often perceived.

Keslynn	08 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel Amyel what is your moon sign? that my be an influencing factor. Per Mary Greer's book, Tarot for Yourself, the card representing your mode of expression is associated with your moon sign. In my case that is very true. My moon sign is Leo which corresponds to the Queen of Wands, defenitly how I express myself and am often perceived. I know you addressed it to amyel, but Leo as I am, I couldn't resist answering. ;) My moon sign is also Leo and rising is Sag. I identify with the :TQS rather than :TQW. Perhaps it's because I'm in academia that I use that identification. I just think it represents the ability to use the potential contained in the natal chart and to go off in your own direction. That's why I tend to go more with personality rather than exact zodiac sign or with something as strictly categorized as Meyers-Briggs. :) Kes

Jewel	08 Aug 2002
Very cool Kes! I think you are right about that! It is really neat how different things work for each of us. See Amyel now you have two possiblities that work offered!

Violet Gargoyle	08 Aug 2002
Knight of Swords= Gemini Damn. I left my suit of armor in my other jeans!

amyel	08 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel Amyel what is your moon sign? that my be an influencing factor. Per Mary Greer's book, Tarot for Yourself, the card representing your mode of expression is associated with your moon sign. In my case that is very true. My moon sign is Leo which corresponds to the Queen of Wands, defenitly how I express myself and am often perceived. Aquarius, with Libra rising......

Jewel	12 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by amyel Aquarius, with Libra rising...... I will look these up in my book and see what it says :)

lunalafey	12 Aug 2002
I have read tarot for alot longer than I have been studing Astrology. My first deck did not include any astrological associations. I had just started with the signs and planets when I got my second deck. I saw the associations and picked up on it right away. But it was only the Majors. I wondered about the rest. I obviously used the 4 elements to connect the tarot court with astrology, but WHO? was WHAT? and what about the rest of the minors? And the "what sign will this person be?" I stuck with saying...."an air sign"....if the cards as a whole give that impression. It has been my experience that when one of the Majors come up, they are sign specific. Rather than thinking "this card represents this sign.." consider it an association this increses the "vocabulary" of the cards when you talking signs. For example, Hanged man is drawn, that is assoc.w/Neptune, well Neptune rules Picses, you have a page of cups on the table, he's probably a Picses(eventhough the book may say scorpio) I think it is possible to see what sign someone may be. I just got M.G's book too and was thrilled to see associations given for ALL the cards. I also found an old book that covers several decks and gives a few astro hint there too. As thirteen said, "..it all depends..." and add to that.... "go with your gut..."

Minderwiz	12 Aug 2002
I totally agree with that - whilst Tarot and Astrology both are symbolic means of communication and both draw on the same archetypes, I don't believe that they are directly related or equivalent. Within Astrology there's a great debate of whether Uranus, Neptune and Pluto really are the rulers of Aquarius, Pisces and Scorpio respectively and whether the traditional rulers, Saturn, Jupiter and Mars should not be the true ruler. To a large extent astrologers have to go with their feeling of what is right. The Golden Dawn associations of signs and planets did not include the three trans Saturn planets, yet many taroists, like astrologers have tried to incorporate them into the Major and Minor Arcanas. I tend to go with traditional Astrological rulerships and only draw on the outer planets if they really seem to fit. For example I feel that the King of Cups is very Neptunian/Jupiterian and has more association with Pisces than Scorpio, which many people associate with this card. I go with my feeling, rather than simply taking the 'book' reading and I think that is the best way to proceed. Minderwiz

Jewel	12 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz I totally agree with that - whilst Tarot and Astrology both are symbolic means of communication and both draw on the same archetypes, I don't believe that they are directly related or equivalent. I absolutly agree with this statement. As discussed in previous threads on various topics, several metaphysical arts have been tried to be tied into Tarot (i.e. the Qabalah, astrology, numerology,etc). Numerology I can see clearly the others I believe have been superimposed on tarot. Personally I think this is very cool, and I love looking into how the connections were made and why ... but like you I believe the Tarot emerged independently of astrology and qabalah. Hopefully in the next couple of days I can expand on the post I started on Friday ref. court cards and their elemental associations. That could also add to the discussion of the King of Cups as Pisces (which by the way I tend to agree with you ;))

Minderwiz	13 Aug 2002
Jewel, I look foreward to that - I tend to struggle (like most learners) with the court cards so it would be very helpful Minderwiz

Pollux	13 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz I totally agree with that - whilst Tarot and Astrology both are symbolic means of communication and both draw on the same archetypes, I don't believe that they are directly related or equivalent. I agree too! It was probably what I tried to say too, but of course you worder it much better! *LOL* :D Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz Within Astrology there's a great debate of whether Uranus, Neptune and Pluto really are the rulers of Aquarius, Pisces and Scorpio respectively and whether the traditional rulers, Saturn, Jupiter and Mars should not be the true ruler. To a large extent astrologers have to go with their feeling of what is right. I tend to consider the outer planets as what now they call the "generational influences". And therefore give more importance to the traditional ruler. This probably more because of my personal experience - Scorpio Rising, Gemini Sun/Mars with Pluto in Libra. First off I feel the plutonian influences weak, also because of the sign it is in, and attribute my pretty strong Libra-ness to my Saturn exalted and my Sun/Mars*Mercury stellium in 7th House. Nonetheless, I see that the plantes have a sort of archetypal value themselves, just as the 22 Major Arcana do; and for this case associating all the planets & signs to the cards can give furhter info, or indicate a certain "direction" that we should follow in the interpretation... Anyway, I shuld stop, and keep this going somewhere else... ;)

Pollux	13 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel As discussed in previous threads on various topics, several metaphysical arts have been tried to be tied into Tarot (...)... but like you I believe the Tarot emerged independently of astrology and qabalah. :) :* :D Quote: Originally posted by Jewel Hopefully in the next couple of days I can expand on the post I started on Friday ref. court cards and their elemental associations. That could also add to the discussion of the King of Cups as Pisces (which by the way I tend to agree with you ;)) Yup, I agree too. I had to check it when I worked on the King of Cups for the FACT Project (what a scandalous card! *LOL*), and when I finished the card I found out I exclusively worked with the Pisces aspect in my mind (I was studying Mutables too in that period, so I was a bit biased too). But it was consistent to me! :P Jewel, I don't want you to hate me, but I think I know what you are referring to when you talk of elementals associated to courts. I hope you won't hate me for posting this now - I just feel compelled, I love correspondences! *LOL* (*goes to retrive his notes*) =======================>>>>>> The elemental assosiation with the Courts derives from the Kabbala Tree of Life. 22 Majors for 22 paths, 10 pips for 10 sephira, 4 COURTS for 4 LEVELS *edited to add I checked this on 78DW - the only thing at hand right now*. Each sphere of the Tree possesses four colours, representing each the four different kabbalistic WORLDS, LEVELS, and ELEMENTS of that particular sphere. Now, the four kabbalistic WORLDS also corresponds to the four SUITS of the Minor Arcana: - Fire/Wands (Atziluth) - archetypal level; Spirit - Water/Cups (Briah) - emotional level; Soul - Air/Swords (Yetzirah) - mental level; Mind - Earth/Pentacles (Assiah) - physical level; Body But, as we previously stated, the 4 LEVELS also correspond to each of the 4 COURTS. According to this system, we have the following: ^ The Kings are associated to the FIRE - masculine, active, assertive, outward, leadering, ruling, controlling... ^ The Queens are associated to WATER - feminine, passive, merciful, inward, simpathetic, intuitive, tolerant... ^ The Knights/Princes to AIR - masculine, communicative, ouward, seeking, learning, idealistic, detatched, judgemntal... ^ The Pages/Princesses to EARTH - feminine, nurturing, supportive, fecund, creative, practical... (Additional stuff occurring to me now, jotted down here on the spur of the moment, as an example... King of Wands = Fire of Fire = Aries (my Moon) Queen of Cups = Water of Water = Scorpio (My Rising) Knight of Swords = Air of Air = Gemini (My Sun + Rising Ruler) Pages of Pentacles = Earth of Earth = no sign, all signs Well, this of course following the system that Kings are cardinals, Queens fixed and Kngihts mutables...) I am sorry for the final result, my notes are a bit messy... GOSH! I still have to start my tarot journal! *LOL*:P

The Zodiac signs and tarot thread was originally posted on 18 Apr 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.