Aleister Crowley

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Jun 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

SharonElizabeth	04 Jun 2002
I've read more than one review of the Thoth tarot that makes mention of Aleister Crowley as having a bad reputation, or the deck getting a bad rep because of what he did for metaphysics. I was wondering if any one could tell me who he is, and just what he did to gain this reputation. All these reviews (a couple from this site) have made me a bit curious about who this man was.

truthsayer	04 Jun 2002
aleister crowley and the thoth deck have been the topic of probably more heated discussion here than any other deck or tarot creator. there was a recent one by umbrae in the archives called "tea and crumpets w/ crowley" in the tarot talk or the other tarot chat section. if you look thru the archives here, there's bound to be a thread or 3 on the thoth deck. i don't think i could go into the history of what i learned about him w/o sparking another debate. the best thing is go back and read the archives. tons of opinions, theories, and perhaps some truths in those. i think one point we all could somewhat agree on was that no matter what crowley's problems, lady freida harris did the magnificent art work and she had good energy to suffuse into the deck. she did a considerable about of background work and study of mathematics to create the deck. she did more than one version of many of the cards. crowley may have created the deck's idea but imho, w/o lady freida the thoth wouldn't be the great deck it is. therefore, the deck shouldn't be penalized due to crowley b/c he wasn't the sole creator. another good point was that members of the golden dawn were pretty angry at crowley and very likely over-dramaticized his notoriety. crowley didn't do much to help himself in this respect and probably added to his own negative publicity. this makes sense to me b/c a.e. waite doesn't have the bad press of crowley but he was in better standing w/ the golden dawn. each man, artist and deck has it's own special genius. waite was a more a master of symbolism and meaning. crowley was more a master of occult and mystic knowledge. somehow they both found the perfect artist to illustrate their decks who happened to be female. i'm glad that pixie smith and lady freida are getting more credit for their contributions than they once did. i used the thoth deck about 15 years w/o hitch until i learned about crowley's notoriety. i simply couldn't use the deck for around 2 years b/c what i learned about him really upset me. but the good ppl here have given me reason to give this lovely and complicated deck more of a chance no matter what its past history may or may not be. crowley's been dead over 50 years and unlike elvis, i'm pretty sure there have been no sightings since his demise. ;) :D

Jeannette	05 Jun 2002
In some ways, it's hard to know what the facts are about Crowley. Both his personality and ideas appear to inspire strong feelings in both directions; it's hard to find a neutral, unbiased, and objective examination of his life and work. He was born in 1875, and died in 1947. In 1898, he joined the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. MacGregor Mathers took on Crowley as a protege, but Crowley's ego apparently matched that of Mathers, and therefore it was inevitable that trouble would follow. Crowley angered many of his fellow Golden Dawn members, even as Mathers was working to advance Crowley within the order at a remarkably rapid pace. After Mathers inducted Crowley into the G.D.'s "second order," the leadership of the London G.D. temple took the unprecedented step of refusing to recognize the validity of the grade. Moving rapidly forward in the story, Crowley, of course, eventually left the Golden Dawn. Several years later, he formed his own magical order, the A:A: (Argenteum Astrum), which also eventually experienced its share of troubles. He subsequently joined the OTO (Ordo Templis Orientis), and was eventually appointed as the head of the OTO organization in Great Britain. Crowley eventually managed to alienate even his own mentor Mathers by publishing a great deal of magickal material which, in the opinion of Mathers and others, violated the oath of secrecy that all G.D. members were required to swear when they joined the order. Crowley also advocated the practice of several controversial forms of magick, including sex magick of various sorts. His trademark motto -- "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" -- is sometimes interpreted (some would say misinterpreted) as meaning that Crowley advocated a hedonistic approach to magick and spirituality. Crowley's writings were extensive, but his ideas were complex and his style often fails to impart a good understanding of his subject matter to all but the most experienced or knowledgeable metaphysicians. He made numerous assertions which remain a subject of debate, although he is hardly the first, or last, metaphysician to do so. In short, Crowley appears to have been a man of contrasts. His unconventional lifestyle was considered offensive and immoral by some, and refreshingly free of turgid and outdated social mores to others. His ego was as alienating as his passion was infectious. And, as with anyone who has the courage and energy to express his personal ideas, there are ultimately some who agree with his views, and some who don't -- and some who (not surprisingly, given Crowley's obtuse writing style) don't even understand what he was trying to say at all. Speaking personally to Crowley's tarot for a moment, I've always seen the details of Crowley's life to be a moot point when it comes to evaluating the Thoth deck. There are probably some who would argue -- and make quite a valid point -- that one cannot fully separate the creation from its creator. However, I've never really experienced any sort of major difficulty in focusing on my own personal interpretation of Crowley's symbology, free from the "taint" of any of the controversies of Crowley's own life or philosophies. As to why that is, I couldn't really say with absolute certainty. In part, it may actually be due to Lady Harris' artistic style, which I personally prefer over Pamela Smith's (meaning no disrespect to the latter; it is simply, as I've stated, a personal preference). But then again, it may be that Crowley, being a more "passionate" soul in relative comparison to the more "conventional" Waite, was able to impart a stronger emotional content in his work that I find quite a bit more intriguing and inspiring. As students of tarot, I think we all have a duty to become at least a little familiar with Crowley's life and work on some objective level. Every one is entitled to their own opinion, of course, and I neither advocate nor repudiate Crowley's personal brand of metaphysics and magick. But, like him or not, he has unquestionably had a profoud influence on the development and study or tarot. To understand this influence is to assist us in our own assessments of the validity of any particular creator's approach to tarot. You can find a brief, yet more detailed and interesting, biography of Aleister Crowley on the web at the following URL: http://jwrevak.tripod.com/bio/crowley_1.html Maybe this is more than you wanted to know, but I hope it helps. -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden http://www.tarotgarden.com

Mermaid	05 Jun 2002
Here's the link to the thread that Truthsayer mentioned! I think the consensus from most people was that the Thoth is a great deck that can't help who created it (kind of like anyone that has embarrassing relations ...) :D http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=3432

SharonElizabeth	05 Jun 2002
What a Pandora's Box I've opened here. After I posted this thread I started looking for old threads that might mention something, and came up with tea and crumpets and the trouble with thoth. Thanks for all the enlightening information. Jeanette and/or Lori, thanks for that link to his bio. I can see now why he has such a reputaion. I don't think it would affect my decision to use the deck, if I do decide that. I'm too much of a beginner to have luck with that deck, but when I get more familiar with the tarot, I'm sure it's going to be on my wish list. I don't think that the creators life will have much of a bearing on that. Truly, it's the art that draws me to a tarot deck, it's the art that drives my readings, and if it were the artist who's doings were questionable, then perhaps it might color my use of that deck. Though as I get deeper into my studies of tarot, I may find that the creator has a bearing on the deck I use. I can see how other people would find that the creators life has a bearing on their use of a deck. Well, that's enough rambling for this late at night. Thanks again truthsayer, Jeanette and/or Lori, and Mermaid for all the info! Sharon

jmd	05 Jun 2002
Just to add a small note to the above. truthsayer may be pleased to note that, also unlike Elvis, a resident in North Queensland (Australia) has claimed to be Crowley's re-incarnation! As mentioned by Jeannette, Crowley's GD degrees were unrecognised by the London GD, but there is more to the political quagmire than meets the eye, for it seems that the only reason which Mathers, who then resided in Paris, gave Crowley those grades was that he wanted to send someone to London to recover certain items he claimed for himself, and also gave 'orders' to Crowley to close the London temple. The whole episode is one of those unfortunate events in the life of esoteric orders, and the police also became involved in the whole affair.

Faerie Lin	05 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Just to add a small note to the above. truthsayer may be pleased to note that, also unlike Elvis, a resident in North Queensland (Australia) has claimed to be Crowley's re-incarnation! Just a quick question here, the person who claims to be Crowley's reincarnation, has he managed to get any "followers" so to speak?... Or does everyone think he is just full of it? Lin

MystiqueMoonlight	05 Jun 2002
I am interested to hear more about this person claiming to be Crowley's reincarnation. What a hoot! Regarding only being a Tarot beginner so therefore avoiding the Thoth deck until you become a little more experienced, I say go for it now. I do not believe that you need to be well versed in the use of Tarot (especially if you are learning on a RW clone, no disrespect here it's just more common for learners to lean towards RW decks) in order for you to familiarise yourself with the Thoth deck. You may be surprised how "familiar" these cards may seem to you even if you don't have a lot of esoteric/metaphysical knowledge (which I believe you don't need to have straight away to successfully use the Thoth cards). Sometimes these cards are inspirational to the most unlikely of people :)

catboxer	05 Jun 2002
Crowley seems to have been a sincere student of esoteric lore and practices, particularly when he was young. But as he got older, his penchant for self-indulgence and his compulsion to dominate others overwhelmed the positive aspects of his nature, and the final accounting of his life would show, I think, more destructiveness than creativity. I'm told he was the inspiration behind the Thoth Tarot. It's a beautiful piece of work, but I've always suspected that Lady Frieda Harris was the agent mainly responsible for it, rather than Crowley. It's been suggested above that Crowley's writing, is exemplified by "The Book of Thoth," which shows that "his ideas were complex and his style often fails to impart a good understanding of his subject matter to all but the most experienced or knowledgeable metaphysicians." My own take on this book is that it's a rehash of all the old, descredited myths about tarot to which a few new equally counterfeit wrinkles were added. When a book is as hard to read as this one, it usually isn't because the subject matter is deep, but because the writing is terrible. Even when dealing with complex subject matter, a writer, as the author-philosopher-historian Jacques Barzun has pointed out, must "put words together so the reader not simply may but must grasp your meaning." Much of the difficulty with "Thoth" stems from Crowley's excessive use of impenetrable occult jargon. Barzun has noted that the excessive use of technical-sounding language and jargon is for the purpose "not of clear designation but of sounding deep or showing off special knowledge." In other words, Crowley's purpose in this book is either to conceal his message from the reader rather than reveal it, or to cover up the fact that there is no substantive content. It's impossible to tell which, because large sections of Thoth are incomprehensible gibberish. In the final analysis, the only thing of value Aleister Crowley left behind was a deck of cards which may not have even been his. (catboxer)

truthsayer	06 Jun 2002
crowley has been reborn in australia, huh? what a hoot!!!!!someone told me nearly 20 years ago that crowely had been reborn in the US. did he move from the US to australia? are they twin souls? ;) to clarify what i said about elvis, tabloids have contended over the past 25+ years that elvis did not die (as crowley did). elvis was taken into a covert CIA mission and his death was faked to protect the mission. i used to listen to this weird radio program when i was a teenager. one night they had a man on the air who sounded like elvis who claimed to be him. i don't know if he finished his CIA mission or not but he'd be nearing 70 today if he were still alive. probably too old to play secret agent anymore. :( ;) i kind of wonder if there are 100 ppl around who think they were once crowley and now reborn like there are as many who think they were cleopatra or alexander the great, etc. i don't know. my gut reaction is that it doesn't work that way. seems extremely egotistical to choose a well known individual.

Jewel	07 Jun 2002
Ohhhhh ~giggles~ JMD please tell us more about this "reincarnated" Crowley!,~uses joking voice~ how exciting it must be for you living in Australia, is he close to you? perhaps you can meet him ~giggle~ ... no seriously, what else do you know about the guy?

jmd	08 Jun 2002
I'm really sorry that I cannot remember where I read this. I think it was either in a letter to the editor of a magazine or an interview with the person. From memory, he certainly didn't try to get a following as Crowley, nor did he appear to have that much knowledge of him... but I could be wrong. Again from memory, he lived, at the time I read this either last year or the year before, in North Queensland, well over 3000km away from my place of residence (though somewhat a little closer to most other Australians I've noticed on this Forum, except for kayne:)!). If I dig out the information, I'll post it - but it's unlikely at this stage. Sorry to disappoint:(!

truthsayer	08 Jun 2002
maybe the story could be found at a website on urban legends. i think i'll give it a try later. if i find something i'll post it.

Jeannette	08 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer i kind of wonder if there are 100 ppl around who think they were once crowley and now reborn like there are as many who think they were cleopatra or alexander the great, etc. i don't know. my gut reaction is that it doesn't work that way. seems extremely egotistical to choose a well known individual. You mean, then can't all have been Crowley or Cleopatra or Alexandra? Gee -- and here I was having an inferiority complex because in my past life, I was just a shoe salesman from Peoria... LOL! :) (Actually, if I had to really guess, I'd bet my most recent previous life was spent as a very lazy cat with a preference for sleeping in the sun by open windows...) -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

jema	08 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Jeannette and/or Lori You mean, then can't all have been Crowley or Cleopatra or Alexandra? Gee -- and here I was having an inferiority complex because in my past life, I was just a shoe salesman from Peoria... LOL! :) -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com i actually met Cleopatra once in the late 80:ies, she is now a rather stout swedish lady who loves to go to "soul-retrievings" or something like it... (where a "shaman" whiff smoke over you to find lost pieces of your soul) i can't remember her name in the here and now - but she was really neat and she did have a lot of eye make-up too! yup.

truthsayer	08 Jun 2002
i met the late sacajeweah in her newer model body about 15 years ago. she was into doing lots of NA rituals and had an affair w/ an NA man. i can't remember if she knew anything new about the lewis and clark expedition. yeah, i know what you mean jeannette. kinda like going to a come as you were 200 years ago party dressed as a Greek goat herder and everybody else is English royalty, a French military genius, Chinese philosphers or a certain eccentric mystic of the occult. who'd have ever thought it...? and you just happened to spray on a fine mist of eau de goat before you left home. man! talk about a bad time to go for authenticity! LOL ;)

Geenius at Wrok	09 Jun 2002
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MeeWah	09 Jun 2002
I have been following this thread with great interest & applaud the thoughtful comments on the subject. The capacity for greatness is often expressed passionately from all quarters; in larger than life scenarios. While Crowley's particular genius seems to be at least partly responsible for the extremes in which he led his life, it also led him to produce material that has withstood any controversy regarding him. That in itself is remarkable, considering the social climate of the time. Indeed, that very controversy seems to have aided & abetted in preserving his contributions to Tarot. The disputes surrounding Crowley seem to stem not only from his lifestyle but from the politics within the Golden Dawn. All of the members were authorities in their own right, so it is not surprising that there would be the conflicting interests in direction. That Crowley apparently made little effort to refute the perceptions of him seems to suggest that he could not be bothered; or even enjoyed the notoriety. He was an individual unto himself. I have read that Lady Frieda Harris designed the deck according to Crowley's direction. That she labored extensively on it to the point that some of the cards were revised a few times over to satisfy Crowley but I also suspect she had an understanding & a vision of her own which dictated the extent of her efforts. Were it not for her creative genius as well, the deck as we know it may well not exist at all.

MeeWah	09 Jun 2002
Geenius: That is a wonderful example of biting satire. Reminds me of The Far Side comic strip.

MystiqueMoonlight	09 Jun 2002
Meewah, Thank you for you comments. Whilst there is no doubt that Lady Frieda Harris was a very talented artist and yes she did work tirelessly on these cards as you say, I think at this time we should assume that the "partnership" between Lady Harris and Crowley was exactly that. Perhaps in our efforts to accept the Thoth cards as a great system with very intuitive artwork we are seperating these two people and therefore could endanger the lessons that we could learn from them. Whilst there is no doubt that Crowley was a contraversial figure of his time, let's put that into perspective and consider the period in which he existed as you have suggested Meewah. I wonder if Crowley were alive today, instead of at the time he was, and he was practicing in the manner in which he did and living the lifestyle he did whether he would be seen in the same vain as we see him now? Consider this.... what reliable source do we actually have to say that all of the rumours and innuendos are actually true.? Do any of us actually know someone with first hand knowledge and who has actually met this man? Most of what has been written about Crowley comes from two "reliable" sources. Either disgruntled Golden Dawn Members or from the man himself and it seems Crowley enjoyed stoking the flames of his noteriety. His owns writings truly testify to that even to the point that at some junctures he satires these situations. Crowley was an amazing human being with fantastic knowledge and a true faith in his beliefs. The fact that Lady Frieda Harris was able to work WITH him on these cards for so many years surely proves that the man was not entirely impossible. I am sure both enjoyed a great learning experience whilst creating the Thoth deck together. Apart from what may have been written by third parties who did not participate in this project I am sure Crowley and Lady Harris had their differences from time to time. Try working with 2 people of this genius for a long period... I say it's time we let go of these rumours and innuendos and start to use the cards thoughtfully and in the manner for which they were meant. Blessed be.

MeeWah	10 Jun 2002
MystiqueMoonlight: I agree. The social climate of the time & the apparent Golden Dawn politics have undoubtedly influenced what records have been left. I refer to both the genius of Crowley & Lady Frieda Harris because their work does reflect that capacity. As you have pointed out, where the deck is concerned, an apparently a cooperative endeavor had to be in place also. I suppose it is natural to wonder & to speculate about the person or persons behind the creation of a body of work, but as the saying goes: "The proof is in the pudding." Ultimately, none of the superfluous matters. It is the result that does matter & what it can inspire, aside from it being a testimony to the creativity & the capacity of the human spirit.

MystiqueMoonlight	10 Jun 2002
*Applaud* Meewah. Nice to hear.... Thank you :)

The Aleister Crowley thread was originally posted on 04 Jun 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.