Drugs and Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Jun 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Jeannette	24 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Qolus ...The Neuzeit is right up there with some of the trippiest. It almost has a grotesqueness to it.. Hey, Qolus! Since you have the Neuzeit, let me pose a riddle for you (one perfect for this thread, in fact). Get out your Neuzeit deck, and take a look at the "Queen of Cups" card. You'll notice a molecular diagram "etched" in the side of the cup in the illustration. The riddle: can you identify the substance represented by the molecular diagram? (Someone asked about it on another chat group some time ago, so I took it to a friend of mine who, among other things, likes to design molecules in his spare time -- really. He gave me a tentative I.D., which I was later able to confirm on the 'Net.) I invite anyone with this deck to give this riddle a shot. In fact, I'll tell ya what -- the first person to post the correct answer gets a free copy of the "Caring Psychic Family" tarot from Tarot Garden! That's a pretty "trippy" deck! :cool: -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Liliana	24 Jun 2002
can you post a scan so those of us without it can participate? :THP

Jeannette	24 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Liliana can you post a scan so those of us without it can participate? Well, sure! (DUH! Why didn't I think of that? :| ) I made a couple of scans, and posted them here: http://www.tarotgarden.com/special/neuzeitcupqueen.gif The card itself is shown on the left. The picture on the right is the specific molecular diagram to which I'm referring, enlarged for clear viewing (since the essential details get lost in the actual-size card scan provided.) Have fun, and good luck! -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Pollux	24 Jun 2002
I just had my Biology exam, and I AM SO MAD!!! I can't DISCERN THAT MOLECULE!!! Well, I shouldn't take it too personally maybe. Probably I never stuimbled across that one... I know I could run into and/or find it if I search for...Jeannette Jeanette please give me a tip! a Hint! PLEASE!!! :D

Pollux	24 Jun 2002
Are you sure it is correct? Why write N(Cx2 Hx5)x2??? The second 2, the red one, should not be there... If the Hydrogen (sp?) athoms are five, the idrocarburic chain is supposed to finish. Look: ..........H....H ..........|.....| ---N---C---C---H ..........|.....| ..........H....H Where os the second C2H5 chain supposed to attach? I do think the image of the molecule is WRONG. Even though I also think someone might have realised that before publishing the deck - not to mention the author himself/herself.

Pollux	24 Jun 2002
There's another thing that doesn't stand right I think... There is a "Pirrolo" - that is the way it is called in Italian - or "Pirrolic Ring". The Pentagon with a N instead of the C being a vertex of the pentagonal shape, and a H bound to the N. You can see it if you look at the lowest part of the molecule as it is drawn, on the right side, NH being the lowest group on the right. Well, what is wrong is that the C athom at the apex of the Pentagon, the one that is "pointing upwards" if you like, is bound 5 times, while C can only bind 4 times. 1 - C on its low-left 2 & 3 - C on its low-right 4 - C above it, belonging to the idrocarburic ring 5 - H on its up-right ..........C...H ...........|./ ............C ........../.\\ .........C....C This is not possible on Earth :P *HOW HE LOVES SPOILING THE FUN! })* *At least you can see that my study has results, after all :P*

Jeannette	24 Jun 2002
Pollux: I know very little about biology or chemistry, so I cannot comment on the "correctness" of the diagram. All I know is that my friend figured it out from the diagram provided, and I was able to find confirmation on the 'Net. I'm in the middle of something right now -- but later tonight, I'll try to go back and see if I can find the website where I located the confirming information, or another one with similar information. Then I can let you know how much difference there is between Wegmuller's diagram and one provided by a "professional chemist." Based on my experiences, I'd hazard a guess that Wegmuller's diagram is "close enough," but I'll admit I don't have enough knowledge in this area to say that with any authority. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Jeannette	24 Jun 2002
Actually, in making my last post, I realized one possibility that might help. So here's your hint: try viewing the diagram from the perspective of a chemist, and not that of a biologist. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Pollux	24 Jun 2002
Jeanette: I AM NEITHER!!! *LOL* But maybe, one day, I'll become a doctor... I was just thinking at how cool it was to boast Chemistry and the like by posting those messages, and viewing the Caduceus as my Avatar at the same time... ;) *LOL* Well, I will try to do that. }) BTW, can't i get a free copy of something from TarotGarden all the same! PLEASE!!!! You know, sort of acknowledging my studies and my engagement... ;) <> P.S. I really like the cards on show of the Caring Psychic Family... Mh... ;) *LOL*

Keslynn	24 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Pollux Where os the second C2H5 chain supposed to attach? I do think the image of the molecule is WRONG. Even though I also think someone might have realised that before publishing the deck - not to mention the author himself/herself. The second C2H5 chain would probably attach to the nitrogen which can be bound 3 times. But I think you're right about that other carbon being attached to too many things... I'll have to see if I can figure the durned thing out. I'm a former chemist. Eek! :) Kes

Liliana	24 Jun 2002
Its LSD lol love my biology-chemistry major husband Did I win? :) P.S. My husband says the diagram is correct but uses an uncommon notation. the second x2 pollux mentioned indicates it is diethylamide not that the two are in a straight chain a more usual form would be (ch2ch3)2

Jeannette	24 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Liliana Its LSD lol...Did I win? :) Yup, Liliana's got it, folks. That's the beastie. :cool: (Actually, I thought my initial comment about the question being appropriate for this "trippy" thread might give it away). Liliana: I'll contact you offlist later tonight to verify that your address is still the same one I have on file. Quote: P.S. My husband says the diagram is correct but uses an uncommon notation. the second x2 pollux mentioned indicates it is diethylamide not that the two are in a straight chain a more usual form would be (ch2ch3)2 In retrospect, I do recall my friend making the same comment, which probably complicated things, unfortunately. However, not to fear, Pollux! I love puzzles, and this has been so much fun for me that I'm thinking I should post similar "tarot brain teasers" periodically (with more prizes supplied by Tarot Garden, of course!). You guys up for that? Heh, heh... }) -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.

Jeannette	24 Jun 2002
Oh, BTW, I posted a follow-up composite with the card, the close-up on the cup, and a diagram of the LSD molecule I found on the 'Net, in case anyone would like to do the comparisons themselves: http://www.tarotgarden.com/special/neuzeitcupqueen2.gif -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

catboxer	24 Jun 2002
Congrats, Liliana. I know absolutely nothing about chemistry or biology, but I feel I should have recognized an old friend.

Jeannette	24 Jun 2002
Maybe the next question to naturally ask would be: how do people feel about this symbol being associated with the "Queen of Cups" card? Is the symbolism appropriate? (Or, perhaps even a broader question of interest might be: how do people feel about tarot designers including references to "controlled substances" -- i.e., illegal drugs, at least in the U.S. -- on their cards?) -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Lee	24 Jun 2002
After reading the above posts I feel as if I had ingested the referenced controlled substance. :) Not to be a party pooper, but it seems to me that this thread is not only on the edge of being non-Tarot-deck-related, but has actually plunged over! Please, have mercy on your poor moderator... -- Lee

Jeannette	24 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lee ...Not to be a party pooper, but it seems to me that this thread is not only on the edge of being non-Tarot-deck-related, but has actually plunged over! Please, have mercy on your poor moderator... Oops! Sorry, Lee. I agree that the discussion was moving away from the thread topic, in particular with the discussion of the different molecular diagrams. Which is why I posted the follow-up question about the use of the symbol in conjunction with the Queen of Cups. I think it was a fair question (personally, I'm not into censorship, but nonetheless I'm not sure I'm crazy about the implications of Wegmuller including that particular symbol in a tarot), but you're right -- a discussion of that question probably best belongs in the "Talking Tarot" forum. And so, since this thread quite clearly started with a discussion of various decks, I withdraw the question here. That should allow this thread to remain under the "decks" heading, rather than being half one and half another (or at least, being moreso than it already is). If anyone is interested in further exploring the general idea of the "appropriateness" of using drug-related symbolism in a tarot, it would probably be best to start a new thread under the appropriate heading. Mea culpa. The mention of the Neuzeit tarot in conjunction with the use of the word "Trippy" in the original thread subject line just sort of got me going on a bit of a "daisy-chain"... :| -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

star streak	24 Jun 2002
This IS a tough one. However, as the Queen of Cups keeps easing her way into my view and thoughts, AND because I no longer use drugs, (except the 'gentle' (ha!) legal ones, (like caffiene, food additives, sugar), AND because I do have some experience with drugs, (uh, well, I was young, wild, and in search of God and Truth), Well, anyway, I will give it a try. No, I don't think the association with the Queen of Cups is appropriate. She represents someone who is in control of her emotions, and drug use, imho, is a form of self-induced insanity. LSD, especially, causes 'information overload'. Too often, it, (and other drug use), leads to loss of control of ones' emotions. One is purposely altering ones' thought processes and mood with 'not natural' means. If one already had understanding and percpetion of the type offered by psychedelics, one would not be wasting their time with the stuff. So, imho, Lsd associated with the Queen of Cups, who HAS understanding and control Supreme, is inappropriate. The issue of self-control is huge, when under the influence. The Queen of Cups is absolutely in control, at least of her emotions and her understanding of the world. I do not like the implication that one finds emotional stability and mastery via the use of lsd. The drug user ingests a substance with the GOAL of inducing a state of mind and body that is NOT part of a natural. human growth, perception, rhythm. One is TRYING to induce chaos, and a state of 'non reality' My own PERSONAL feeling and experience has led me to think that I will gain spiritual insight when/as I am ready, NOT when I push the matter, with drugs or any other means. As I learn, grow, understand new things and new 'planes of existence' If I do 'make' the walls come tumbling down, by drugs or other means of 'pushing it', I find I have been exposed to more than I can understand and/or process intellectually or emotionally, which in the long run, slows things down. (Too many side tracks, emotional floods, 'shocks', etc.) ON THE other hand, though. I do NOT mind drugs being represented on the cards. Native Americans have long used psychedelics as part of their spiritual path, and I believe, that anyone who chooses to use drugs as part of their own spiritual path, should be allowed to do so. (Check out Catholicism that uses all those heavy incences that used to make many a child faint in church. And wine as part of the Sacrament. Etc., etc.) Tarot cards cross all spiritual lines. (It's part of what I LOVE about them!) I understand that what is there for one persons' use on the card, certainly may not be there for me. It is my choice to learn, study, and apply whatever information the cards give me. I am certainly not averse to there being information on them that I won't use, especially if it might apply to someone else. Granted, Drug Abuse is a HUGE problem, a tragedy in this country and worldwide. I believe it is up to each of us as individuals, parents, friends and advisors to each other, to face and understand this problem, together and as individuals. Drugs are NOT going to go away, legal or not. Why do we all ingest these substances, artificially altering our physical and mental systems?Rather than gain understnading and control of ourselves, by ourselves? This view includes the out-of-control use of LEGAL prescription drugs, herbs, and those many substances that can be gotten easily, legally, and those that are 'forced' on us by being added to our foods. How many people do you know are on Prozac, (or a version of it?) Kids on Ritalin? What do you know about the chemicals in your food, how they might be affecting your brain chemistry? Is it 'right' because it is legal? (Yes, I definitely understand that in some cases, these legal drugs are absolutely neccessary. But look at how prevalent the use is! Are we all so emotionally ill? So 'chemically imbalanced'? Or are we just too 'busy' to deal with ourselves and our depressions, our active kids, our own spiritual, psycholgical, social and physical health? For me, legality has nothing to do with it. Wrong is wrong. I think we, as a society, tend to turn to the 'quick-fix' pill, rather than face ourselves and our states of ill-health. We should be fixing imbalances, (and inducing growth and knowledge), by bringing our bodies, our planet, our relationships back into understanding, balance and perspective. Ourselves. With our new, self earned perspectives. Using drugs, herbs, whatever, only when there is no other alternative, no other hope! Anyway, no, I don't mind the reference being on the card. No, I'll never use lsd again, not in this lifetime anyway. No, I won't judge anyone elses' choice to do so. Yes, I will help any brother or sister who gets into trouble, with drugs, magic, whatever, even if it's by their own carelessness, only if they want my help. Whew. Sorry guys. Hot issues for me. :) Love and blessings to all, StarStreak

star streak	24 Jun 2002
I AM sorry! I was busily typing away, while you posted a plea for focus! And of course, I was long-winded, opinionated, and political in my post! Please, forgive!

Jeannette	24 Jun 2002
Star Streak: This is getting interesting... Hey, Lee? Would it be possible to split this thread into two somehow, in order to avoid losing any of the interesting parts of the "drugs and tarot" messages posted so far? Or is the only choice to start a new thread, and recap? -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Lee	25 Jun 2002
Hi, folks, per Jeannette's excellent suggestion, I've split the original thread, so I took the part starting with the "identify the molecule" contest and put it here. Star Streak, I'm sorry, I should have written my post more clearly -- actually I have no quarrel with the subject matter or any of the posts at all; the only thing I'm concerned with is that the threads have something to do with specific decks. I'm trying not to be too anal about all this, and if a thread's subject matter wanders afield for a few posts, I wouldn't do any moving or splitting, unless the thread seemed to take a definite and permanent shift into a new subject matter that didn't have anything to do with a specific deck. Now, that's sometimes (in fact, usually) a hard call -- for example, this thread could be seen as entirely relating to a specific deck, since several of the recent posts are discussing the Queen of Cups of a specific deck (sorry, I've lost track of which deck). However, it still seems to me that there's enough of a connection to a larger topic (drugs and Tarot) to put it in the Talking Tarot section. I think the main point is that that might give people a chance to participate who might be interested in the larger subject matter but who don't ever look in the Tarot Decks section (if there are such people! :D). Sorry to ramble on like this, I just don't want people to think I'm being mean. If I might speak for my co-moderator as well as myself, jmd and I do think long and hard before moving or splitting a thread, although I must say in this case Jeannette made it much easier for me by suggesting it! :) And, Star Streak, please don't apologize for being long-winded, opinionated, and political in your post -- those kinds of posts are the most fun! :D -- Lee

star streak	25 Jun 2002
Thank you so much for looking after me when my brain goes off the trail! If anyone ever gets the habit of wandering off topic, that would be me. (Too much LSD in my wild youth, maybe? :) ) I don't realize another conversation has started, until someone says, "hey, what ARE we talking about, anyway?" It all happens so fast! :) I appreciate your efforts to keep thinking clear and organized for all of us chatters. Plus, with the new heading, 'Drugs and Tarot', we will probably get a lot of views! :) Jeanette, why don't you like the reference on the card?

Angel Star	25 Jun 2002
I have never seen this deck but I did like the picture of the Queen of Cups and I thought this thread was very intersting in finding out what the chemical was. Plus the negative aspect of the Queen of cups is using drugs sometimes. This card always shows up when doing readings on my husbands ex-wife! Big time druggy though not LSD. Very interesting I will have to go back and check out some of the decks on the web sites that were given. Take care all!

Umbrae	25 Jun 2002
Hold up there! Are you sure you wanna tie that there pony up on that tree? Having the molecular symbol for d-Lysergic Acid Diethylamide-25 on the Queen of Cups is nowhere near a statement of approval by the artist, in favour of drug culture or behaviour. The Queen of Cups is the receptive quality of the suit. Anyone who has ever experimented extensively with d-Lysergic Acid Diethylamide-25 will tell you that “Loving, tenderhearted, psychic, and spiritual (religious). Appreciates the deeper meanings of life, has a well-developed sixth sense, may have a telepathic bond with another, is always tuned to emotional undercurrents, senses the climate of a situation, turns away wrath with caring, dispels anger and hate and can never turn away someone in need” pretty much defines a good “Experience”. Now there’d be more shade if you tied that there pony under this here tree…

zorya	25 Jun 2002
i think the symbol represents, the gift of entheogens; vision, not drug abuse. big difference. big.

star streak	25 Jun 2002
Key words-"Good experience" Warning! Much of what follows centers on the 'merits' and 'risks' of drug use! Skip to the last paragrapgh or two, if ya wanna see only tarot talk! (Forgive me, moderator! My pony's aflame!) :) It is true that LSD, and a few other psychedelics can, and do, open one to sights, sounds, thoughts, emotions, psychic and other experience that one would not otherwise get, (not yet, anyway), without the inducement of the chemical imbalance. Yes, I remember the incredible joy; ecstasy to the point where it was REALLY hard to control my urges. It took a LOT of work to remember that I could NOT fly off that cliff, no matter how much I KNEW that I could. I DID control my actions while tripping, but I knew a few who couldn't, one or two with tragic consequences. Yes, I remember the incredible awareness of God, and the awesome connection with the Universe, and the psychic conversations I had with my friends. I remember the barrage of many, many images and thoughts flying into my line of sight and sound. I remember my thought flows, how there were surely a thousand of them running through my brain at all times. I remember the house breathing, nothing looking like what it really was, telling my friends to stop flying around the room, when they were just sitting there. I remember friends going to the hospital, some unable to 'come down' for weeks. One never came home at all. I remember the hiss of my brain cells frying. I remember the 'comedown', the day after. I remember the incredible sadness the next day, the depression, the struggle to reconcile the reality of my 'straight' existence with the joy I felt I could never have without the drug. The problem is, for MYSELF, that one CAN learn to experience the wonderful, spiritual things WITHOUT the chemical imbalance. Without reliance on a drug to do this for you. Via meditation, spiritual exercises, and study and work, one CAN gain REAL learning and progression, a steady gaining of awareness and assimilation of new perspectives. From the point where one IS. WITHOUT messing with the brain chemistry, without trying to 'force' the awareness. One CAN feel ecstasy, joy, oneness with the Universe, total awareness of God, all WITHOUT the 'assistance' of a drug! How real is the place that people are at when under the influence? Why do they 'need' a chemical to influence their experience of God, Love, Joy? Why not learn to have these positive experiences without reliance on a drug to get you there? How 'in control' is one under the influence, how much work does it take to stay in control? Is fighting to maintain control, really control? I remember laughing while my mother beat the hell out of me while I was peaking one night. Is this an appropriate, 'real' response, or should I have been experiencing the fear I needed to get the hell out of there? Instead, I laughed, while she bounced me off the walls. How controlled is that? What kind of reality IS that? She could have killed me, and I would have laughed the whole time. I'd rather face the next life clear headed, thanks. What is the price one pays in brain cells? DNA and nervous system damage? What does this loss do, in the long run, to ones' rate of progression on their Path? Do you remember what you felt like on the 'comedown'? The incredible depression, sadness. How poisoned and beaten your body and spirit felt? And, most importantly, how many people today who use this drug, (IF they are actually getting the 'real' thing, and not strychnnine), do so as an enhancement to their spiritual development? What environment are they in for the duration of the trip? Do they have any kind of REAL control over what surrounds them, how they may react, as real and unreal stuff comes flying at them from everywhere? Do they have a teacher, a guide, to move them through the visions and extreme thought streams? Or even a 'babysitter' who will stay straight and ensure that they have, at least, a good time, and not do anything REALLY stupid? To bring this baby back to tarot, and the Queen of Cups, I'd like to say that I personally feel that the Queen is so receptive, so loving, so adept at understanding her own emotions as well as the those of people in her life, that she does not NEED the drug, nor is even tempted by what it 'offers'. She already has the awareness, the receptivity, the psychic development, the joy. She has grown into it of her own volition, and is absolutely sure of herself and where she is, because it was her own two feet, her own healthy brain, her strong heart, that got her where she is. She is Serenity Itself, without any delusions, illusions, or hallucinations. She knows and accepts All That Is. She is understanding and compassion, a light that shines and provides comfort to all around her. I do not object to anyone including drugs as part of their own, spiritual learning. If that is what they choose to use as a tool to get 'there', they have a right to it. Myself, I'd rather do it 'naturally', in synch with my own position, from where I stand now. IF, IF I were to associate this particular drug with a particular card, it would be with the Hermit, the Guide. Or the Magician, who manipulates the molecules, and makes 'miracles'. Or the Fool, who is going somewhere, for sure, but has no clue where, nor how to get there. But by gosh, he's a goin'! Probably the Hermit, though, since, I feel, if one is going to go where one is PROBABLY not ready to go, (or they'd be there already), one should definitely have a knowledgeable guide. :) Blessings to all! StarStreak

star streak	25 Jun 2002
I absolutely agree that there is a big difference between drug induced visions and drug abuse. Between drug abuse and the quest for enlightenment. I do fear for the over eager seeker, though, who might bite off more than they can chew, and endanger themselves. "What's that symbol on the cup mean? Will I really be psychic if I use it? Will I understand everybody, finally? WIll I really know God?" I also know that visions can be had without benefit of chemical imbalance. LSD sure is an easy, fast way to break the 'limits' of this 'reality'.....and we are big on finding easy, fast ways to get everything done. That is my concern. There are other ways to have visions. And there are other ways to travel. :) Without near the risk, nor bodily damage, (esp. brain cell hissing away....and what does all that over-firing of synapses do?) Yes, I am against censorship, and the cards ARE there for everybody. I would definitely not use this deck with teenagers though. :) Especially the geniuses-the ones who could easily figure out, if they didn't already know, what the signature was, yet who are still emotional adolescents. (An obvious statement, I hope). And what about the adults who are emotional adolescents? Hmmm, maybe they're the ones who really 'need' this stuff. Hmmm, Maybe I should try some again. :) I still don't think it, the LSD symbology, belongs on the Queen of Cups. Psychedelics, by their nature, push emotions and perceptions beyond limits. I feel this really requires a guide, or at least, an adept user. This card does not make it clear just who is going to drink from that goblet. Is she mixing it for herself, or someone else? And the Queen is certainly a comfort, and she follows her heart, but is her main role that of Teacher? She does call for us to love one another, and that is the most important lesson....hmmm..... Maybe. My vote is still for the Hermit, the Inner Guide, the serious, adventurer on the inner planes. Much stronger association for me, than with the the Queen of Cups. (maybe it's cuz i wuz a loving psychic long before i took lsd!) Even the Hierophant would make more sense to me, or the Chariot. Or perhaps the Wheel of Fortune? Yes, destiny, cycles, 'visions of great force'. That makes more sense to me. Okay, I think that the LSD chemical signature should go on the Wheel of Fortune instead. I'm done now, thanks. :) I am sorry I went off on a tangent again; I will leave this thread alone now. I didn't mean to Blessings, all!

amyel	25 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Pollux Are you sure it is correct? Why write N(Cx2 Hx5) x2 ??? The second 2, the red one, should not be there... If the Hydrogen (sp?) athoms are five, the idrocarburic chain is supposed to finish. Look: .......... H .... H .......... | ..... | ---N---C---C---H .......... | ..... | .......... H .... H Where os the second C2H5 chain supposed to attach? I do think the image of the molecule is WRONG. Even though I also think someone might have realised that before publishing the deck - not to mention the author himself/herself. I feel very stupid, because this thread is like "Charlie Brown's parents" to me.... "bwa bwa bwa bwa bwa....."

zorya	25 Jun 2002
star streak, i'm a woman of very few words, so let me try to explain a little more clearly. i was not in any way condoning or suggesting that anyone do any illegal drugs. what i am suggesting, is that we don't read "drug abuse", into the queen of cups, because of this symbol. i believe it represents the kind of "vision" that this psychedelic is known for; connectedness, openess and oneness. that is all.

AmounrA	25 Jun 2002
Hello, If there's one trump card that does in my mind express the use of 'drugs' its the strength card...or more clearly the thoth decks strengths card 'lust'......the tasting of every fruit and gaining 'strength' through experiment. I think psychodelics have played a major role in the evolution of spiritual side of humanity.....mainly by the use of mushrooms and peyote, which goes right back into the mists of human history.

star streak	25 Jun 2002
I am laughing at myself right now. I do go on like an L.A. highway, now and again. (Or someone who's taken way too many drugs for recreational purposes!) I often wish I was a woman of very few words. I either say nothing at all, or way too much. Ugh! Your statement was clear and to the point. I just took it, threw it on top of Umbraes' thoughts, along with the first thoughts of the thread, and made a salad that is giving people indigestion, I'm sure. And doesn't have much to do with the presence of the map of lsd on a tarot card. (Unless one thinks like me. :) ) My sincere apologies. (and yes, I see that it likely symbolizes spiritual vision and insight. I do think it would be more appropriate on another card, though. Like the Hermit, or the Wheel of Fortune. Just my opinion.) AmounrA, You do have a valid point. Life is quite a bit about experimentation and experience. And, where would the world be, if there had been no mind altering drug use in the course of history? Interesting thought. Many of the worlds' great artists and scientists have been drug ingesters. As well, I do have the utmost repect for the reponsible use of psychedelics as a spiritual tool. Just not for myself, personally.

Jeannette	25 Jun 2002
Hi, Gang! I'm a little slow to reply here, I see -- this is quite an interesting line of discussion progressing here. In fact, I'm not sure I have much to add, because when it comes to experience with "controlled substances," well... let's just say that I'm sure at least some of you who are participating in this thread would find my naivete quite amusing. However, I did make a passing reference to my own feelings about the Neuzeit Queen of Cups card, which is what I assumed prompted star streak's very fair question: Quote: Originally posted by star streak Jeanette, why don't you like the reference on the card? Actually, I'm of "two minds" on this. In truth, I rather do like the reference on the card -- I find the symbol clever and original, and I like the fact that it was there just sort of "waiting to be discovered" -- that is, not hidden so it couldn't be seen if one is paying attention, but not so blatant as to reveal itself to mere casual observation. I have nothing but respect for someone who can design a tarot that can surprise and engage us thus. However, I still have some reservations about the whole Queen of Cups/LSD thing -- and primarily for reasons that you've already cited so well, star streak. I also do not presume to judge anyone who feels that there's a role for mind-altering chemicals in their personal spiritual journey, although I choose not to do so myself. It's just that I don't see the association as being very "Queen of Cup-ish," using very much the same logic as you've put forth in your previous posts. My error was probably in stating my reservation too broadly -- in my earlier post, I see I'd written that "I'm not sure I'm crazy about the implications of Wegmuller including that particular symbol in a tarot." I probably should have replaced the phrase "in a tarot" with the words "on the Queen of Cups card." In fact, Wegmuller's use of the symbol may be quite "neutral" -- it would be wrong of me to automatically presume that the reference to LSD on the card can be equated with Wegmuller condoning its actual use. Actually, as I write this, I've pulled out the Neuzeit LWB to see what it has to say about this card, and while it refers to the Queen of Cups as being the "Mistress of magical potions," it also gives the upright divinatory meaning as encompassing "[m]oderation with drugs and medicines." For the reversed meaning, the text includes "[d]rug abuse" among the card's interpretations. So, I guess that will teach me to go "shooting off at the mouth" (or at the keyboard, as the case may be) before doing my homework... -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

star streak	25 Jun 2002
Me, too. Not enough knowledge about the original subject to go spouting off like I did. I'm simply a beginner when it comes to interpreting the cards, and consider the Queen of Cups to mainly be intuitive, loving, master of her own emotions, aware of the glory and challenges of life, empathic to the journeys of others. I certainly had no idea what the artist actually intended, especially when it comes to the drug use aspect. Figures that would be there, somewhere. Thank you for the information from the Lwb, and for your own input. It also makes sense a bit now, as I've thought it through a bit. Considering that people drink to 'loosen up' and talk, which can often be therapeutic, and/or enlightening, or to numb the feelings they don't want to feel, which usually only makes matters worse. (This is why I like to get the books that accompany the cards. Sheds a lot of light on the personality of each deck. And they do each seem to have their own personalities.) Btw, your lack of experience with drugs is to be commended. The temptations to use are all too great, especially when desperate, or when out in search of life, adventure, and all the 'experience' one can get. I truly regret the experiences I didn't have, because I sought too many answers, and too much relief, in the use of drugs, for too many years. And yes, this is far different from the spiritual 'Vision quest'. My own 'thing'. On the other hand, I have to say that my drug use did teach me a lot, stuff that I can't say for sure I would have learned without the experience. What if, what if. Regret is useless. Everything I've done has contributed to who I am today, and I am not so upset about who I am today, all things considered. Love and blessings to all, StarStreak

MeeWah	25 Jun 2002
Although my initial reaction to the presence of the LSD chemical symbol on the chalice was surprise, I can see where it could apply. The Queen of Cups is a "visionary" & as such, her sight accesses those realms that others might not as readily. Or some would resort to "artificial" means to pierce that veil of knowledge. The cup is that cup of knowledge. Not all who drink from that cup are equipped to handle it. In the same way, knowledge is a two-edged sword that not all are equipped to wield. The acquiring of knowledge carries an inherent responsibility: that of using it appropriately; wisely. In the wrong hands, it can be detrimental, even dangerous. A reversed meaning of the card's qualities can refer to drug dependency or abuse (though I have seen that meaning in other cards). BTW: When I designed the Queen of Cups for the F.A.C.T. deck (First Aeclectic Collaborative Tarot), I took into consideration both the positive & the negative qualities & wrote the text accordingly.

MeeWah	25 Jun 2002
StarStreak: You have presented a commentary that offers the benefit of your experience. It is very thoughtful & full of insight into the human condition & the frailties. We all can benefit from your wisdom--so: thank you!

Jeannette	26 Jun 2002
star streak and MeeWah: Yes, it appears that I'm also due for a re-thinking of the association-in-question. Again, I approached the Queen of Cups concept from the same initial perspective as that put forth earlier by start streak -- i.e., this Queen's receptivity is expressed in its mature form; she controls it from within, without need of any external facilitation, illicit or otherwise. But what occurs to me upon reexamination -- and shame on me for forgetting this, since I consider it to be a nearly-essential element in any good tarot card -- is that the concepts embodied in a tarot image encompass opposites. That is, there is a central concept (or more than one) within a card, but that central concept can be expressed in dual (sometimes many) forms. This is why we can refer to them as being well-dignified or ill-dignified (or positive or negative, or upright or reversed, if you prefer). Thus, taking the receptivity concept to the other extreme, it's quite possible that our Cup Queen could be a drug abuser, when she is ill-dignified. We assume that this isn't what the appearance of the card recommends -- tarot itself recommends nothing, of course. It may reflect, it may elucidate, it may caution... but we draw our own conclusions from what it portrays, and make our own recommendations accordingly. So, for me to assume that Wegmuller's card overtly portrays the Queen of Cups as someone who uses drugs to achieve her end-goals is to unfairly characterize his intentions without the appropriate evidence. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

All Is One	26 Jun 2002
What Have I Done? I posted this innocentlittle thread, intrigued by something Qolus said...intrigued by the 1000's of bizarre and wonderful decks... And I left for a craft-a-thon work session, because I am starting a business... I emerge from the rabbit hole to find... not only has the thread gotten replies- but it is NOT a rabbit hole now...it is a Rabbit Warren... Anyone seen "Watership Down?" Or, better yet, read the novel? Movie is not scary- the novel is horrifying. In fact- let's veer off again for the sheer funky thrill of it (you guys did it, I was being so good...for once) "Watership Down"- the novel, would make an excellent (or at the very least... ~trippy~ Tarot deck) any thoughts? BTW~ I was born with what feels like three zonked out brains inside of one skull box...so I have never even tried LSD. Peyote, etc... hate to blow the evil reputation I got somehow (the snake tattoo, maybe?) But that is it~ very very tame drugs tried young and abandoned for legal stuff... good red wine, Heinlein Novels, over-buying at Amazon, and enormous mushrooms stuffed with garlicky feta cheesey shrimp/scallopy thingies, wrapped in bacon. or whatever the restaurant cares to toss in. Mushrooms of the normal type, and BTW~~~did this thread go berserk? Is there another half of it mutating and jabbering in a corner of the A.T. Site all alone? All I can say, after innocently torching off four or ?? pages of interesting/ brilliant posts (and GREAT contest!) is this... "Curioser and curioser" said All Is One, as she picked up the little deck of cards, and saw the note on them that said: "Read Me."

Umbrae	26 Jun 2002
Watership Down? I never wanted to read a book about furry little bunnies (LOL). Back when that was popular I was slogging through “One Hundred Years of Solitude”. Now that was a trippy book. But would not make a good deck…It might make a good oracle deck. Cards like: Ice. The Firing Squad. Renata Ascending to Heaven Still Holding a Sheet...

All Is One	26 Jun 2002
it doesn't seem to translate~~~~trippy decks~~~ does not equal "Drugs and Tarot" just ask Qolus. . . . . but that is a cool survey to do, and now I have to wonder if I dare: Which, in my rabbit hole, with no Eliot to comfort me, calls to mind the angst of Mr. P and the existential lament misquoted- from the depths: Do I dare, to climb the stair Do I dare and do I dare To move the parting of my hair Do I dare to eat a peach [...] Do I dare disturb the universe? ~T. S. Eliot (the lock upon his garden was a wife, that's what it was)

All Is One	26 Jun 2002
It seems I am in a holding pattern...? not able to get a point across...am I hearing the sparrows speaking once more... ~in Greek? Watership Down was not about Furry Little Bunnies. One Hundred Years of Solitude, which was a good novel, was a straight forward, elegantly written novel of political and social dissent; there have been many such novels written throughout the ages~ often they are disguised. . . . . . . . . . as stories about furry little bunnies, or a group of barnyard animals, or a novel about the inhabitants of Tralfamadore (10 pts to the first one who gets that title...hint: starts with "The T....") (oh, the cool stuff I read at 13- now I just read Tarot books and Jung... and poetry) and often, long ago, they were hidden in a 78 page "novel" with symbols of astrological, numerological, hebraic , hidden wisdom- some of which cannnot be decoded or declaimed by anyone in the modern age. Wait. . .that WAS the sparows talking in Greek... 'scuse me- the river calls

Umbrae	26 Jun 2002
about the inhabitants of Tralfamadore… ”Slaughter House Five” I know Watership Down was not about FLB’s. But there was a book hidden in One Hundred Years of Solitude, a book that drove the people mad, who tried to figure it out…

All Is One	26 Jun 2002
Now you got me, Umbrae~ I loved the book, but I don't remember that part. . .so I definitely need to re-read it. I read at least one or two by same author... was it by the same guy as "The Unbearable Lightness of Being?" That was a great book. BTW~ Slaughterhouse Five was short stories, or one novella and several shorts... the Tralfamadoreans were in "The Sirens of Titan." . . Reminds me- I am about due for my every three year re-read of Cat's Cradle...short, scary, and pee-in- your-shorts hilarious. Boko-maru?

AutumnMoonfire	26 Jun 2002
I remember starting Watership Down for 9th grade English and thinking "yuck, I don't want to read a novel about a shipwreck!" boy was I surprised!

Angel Star	26 Jun 2002
I never suggested that the drug symbol in this particular card suggested that the Queen of cups condones drug abuse if someone read my post wrong or I worded it wrong that was not my intention. I am merely going on my experience that this card and alot of the meanings I have seen suggest substance abuse or mind altering trips. this is what this card in general from alot of different decks always shows up when doing readings on hubbies ex-wife. This just happens to be her card. I read the post after mine and everyone has some very intersting things to say about mind altering trips and we don't need that its just becomes to dangerous and some prefer to keep tripping hence addiction follows alot of the times. Not always but just look at the problems with substance abuse. To each is his/her own though. This has been a very intersting thread and many have posted on it since yesterday. Take care all.

MeeWah	26 Jun 2002
Angel Star: It does not appear that your post was misunderstood. Although this thread went on a slight tangent, I think the majority do agree that the chemical formula on the cup is symbolic. Its presence does not mean the designer of the deck condones the use of drugs; nor does it necessarily promote the use of same. In addition, as every card possesses a range of meanings from the positive to the negative associations, it is therefore possible for the Queen-Cups to refer to drug abuse or some other type of negative behavior; to represent an individual who practices such behavior.

Jeannette	26 Jun 2002
Hey, gang! I'd kinda expected to see someone post info on some other deck or decks that utilize drug-related symbolism (illicit or otherwise) -- although I can't actually think of any others myself at the moment. Can anyone else? I'll check my library o' stuff, to see if I can find anything. But I guess it wouldn't surprise me to discover that there's nothing else that "fits the bill," or at least among more recently-published decks in particular, since it's probably not quite "politically correct." -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

star streak	26 Jun 2002
Try "Deck 777", by Lance Reynard. Printed on parchment paper, not commercially published yet. Black ink, hand-Trimmed with gold leaf. Handmade version, limited edition, still available for $35., or thereabouts I think. A 22 card majors-only deck, comes in a handmade, parchment box, wrapped in wax paper. He does have a website, www.deck777.com , I believe. (If I am wrong about the web address, a google search will turn it up) What Lance has done is to make a deck that has the hebrew symbol, color, runic symbol, stones, gods, qabbalist pathway, etc., whatever associations he found in his research that corresponded to each card. This includes any drug or herb that might be associated with the card. It is a beautiful deck. Once again, I am not averse to the presence of the associated 'drug' that might be on the card. (not all the cards have one) There is a vast amount of information on these cards, and the deck itself is a work of art, as well as the result of much research. They don't 'shuffle', these cards, but one could close their eyes and swirl them around on the table, using 'heat' to pick the ones that call. These cards call to me often, and I am moved to treat them with utmost respect and care. I think they are intended to be used more for study, meditation, and magic work, although he does offer a 'Tree of Life' layout for reading. I am such a beginner, I feel a little lost with them, but the info on them is fascinating to me as I embark on my tarot journey. I love that the colors, gods, etc. are on there to help me make added associations. However, I will NOT use any of the drugs, herbs, etc. associated with any card that I am studying or meditating on. Hope this helps!

star streak	26 Jun 2002
Wrong about the spread he offers for use. It is more a two triangles stacked shape, one inverted on top of the other, like an hourglass. And the address is http://deck777.com Also, I should note that goddesses are designated accordingly, as well as gods. (I tend to automatically 'unisex' terms in my head. I realize this is bothersome to many, especially to those who honor the Goddess specifically. Please forgive, I intend no slight) Example, take the High Priestess. Corresponding 'drugs' are Juniper and pennyroyal. On the Wheel of Fortune, the one drug given is 'cocaine'. On the Hierophant, it is 'sugar'; on Justice, 'tobacco' On the Fool, it is 'peppermint'. Several cards have more than one listed. Death, the Tower, Judgement, Temperance, and the Universe, all have no associated ingestable listed at all. Have fun with this one!

Angel Star	26 Jun 2002
Thanks Meehah I wasn't sure if anyone thought thats what I meant or not so I just posted just in case my first post was incorrect. Yes the Queen of Cups is a very beautiful card and usually if I am reading for anyone else its a very positive card but when it comes to hubbies ex-wife this card always donates the abuse of drugs on her part. Too bad she has a potential for the positive side of this card of being very psychically gifted but apts to use her abilities in a very negative way. Black magick and psychic attacks Too bad its such a beautiful card in most of my readings. Take care. Blessed Be.

Jeannette	27 Jun 2002
star streak: Thanks for the link to the deck777. I had a passing familiarity with this deck, but I hadn't ever taken a very close look at it. The fact that the myriad of associations presented include the references to these various herbal/chemical substances is quite interesting. It's a symbolic system that's not seen in tarot all that often, at any rate. I did some checking, after which I embarassingly remembered that some of the decks I mentioned on the initial "trippy" thread include references to drugs/drug use. In particular, the Cynic's Tarot (syringes appear on several cards; you can see this on the Devil card in the samples provided) and the Tarot der Schatten (Tarot of Shadows). In the samples provided for the Schatten Tarot, you might notice that the Hermit is definitely "shooting up" with his right hand (and mastrubating with his left -- it's a very weird and dark deck). But I suppose it's not surprising that cynical or darkly-themed decks would be less hesitant to openly use drug-related symbolism. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

mehrdad	27 Jun 2002
Jeannette Very interesting post! I learned a lot about LSD, which I did not know before (I have never used it). Unfortunately, I was not born in the west and where I have come from the drug of choice is Hashish and opium (I have not used any of those either). I looked at the card posted by you and it is very beautiful and beside the chemical diagram I also noticed some circles painted on the cup with imprinted diamond shape in them. Are these also refereeing to LSD or some other drugs? Are these diamonds has anything to do with the beetle song, diamond in sky? There is also a triangular or diamond shape, which is being poured into the cup from the palm of the queen into the cup, what does that mean? I also noticed a mushroom colored red at the bottom of the card with white diamonds painted on it, could you explain a little about this? Some triangular or the diamond shapes are also painted with the four primary colors standing on the table. There is also a circular shape painted on the palm of the left hand of the queen, who looks very much like an Indian woman, which I could not figure out about its nature, what is that? In the background the mountains are also look a lot like diamonds and amazingly both the crescent moon and a reddish sun are painted together and side by side, but my question is why According to Crowley whom I admire greatly, the queen of cups represent erasing the boundaries between dream and reality and the medial knowledge of inner wisdom which also means ascending into nothingness. Again according to him, the queen of cup shows the way leading down to the roots and the spirits of the depths, and to the source of dreams beneath the threshold of consciousness. Is this how one feels when using LSD? If yes then perhaps I should give it a try

MeeWah	27 Jun 2002
Mehrdad: Please accept ye this in the spirit it is offered. Thou art a visionary in thy own right! LSD hath volatile properties whose interaction with the individual psyche can not, & mayst not be pre-determined. The use of this compound doth not guarantee fullness of spirit. Too many art the variables that wilt influence the results. An excess of information beyond the usual ken mayst result in overload of the human senses & cause harm. Please listen ye to Star Streak.

Jeannette	27 Jun 2002
Hi, Mehrdad! I'm glad you've found the Neuzeit "Queen of Cups" card so interesting. MeeWah already has replied to your question about LSD experimentation, and referred you to start streak's excellent previous posts on the matter. I don't think I have anything to add here, except my general agreement with their points-of-view. As to the card itself: Quote: Originally posted by mehrdad I looked at the card posted by you and it is very beautiful and beside the chemical diagram I also noticed some circles painted on the cup with imprinted diamond shape in them. Are these also refereeing to LSD or some other drugs? Are these diamonds has anything to do with the beetle song, diamond in sky? Unfortunately, the small booklet that comes with the Neuzeit tarot, like most such books, does not offer a lot of detail on the symbolism. Which is immense in this particular deck -- there is probably well more symbolism-per-square-cm here than is found in your average tarot. So, in answering your questions, I'll have to work strictly off my own knowledge and interpretation. Others following this thread should feel free to correct or contradict me. The four triangles on the cup, surrounding the LSD molecule diagram, appear to be the standard medieval alchemical symbols for (from left to right): Earth, Water, Air, and Fire. This perhaps suggests the Queen's ability to spiritually blend these four foundational "elements." The down-pointing triangle, once again, appears to be the alchemical symbol for water. As this the element that is innate to the Cup Queen, it seems reasonable that it should pour easily from her palm. I would say it looks like amanita muscaria, commonly known as "fly agaric." You can learn more about this mushroom variety here: http://www.mykoweb.com/CAF/species/Amanita_muscaria.html This website notes that the fly agaric is highly toxic, although the toxins can be broken down in water... another appropriate reference to the Queen's natural element! More information on the toxic properties of the fly agaric can be found at the end of this webpage: http://www.xs4all.nl/~4david/mushroom.html Quite an idea -- to suggest that the Queen has the powers to take something so potentially deadly, and render it harmless! (Look, ma! I learned something new again! This is too cool.) :cool: Hmmm... red, yellow, and blue are the primary colors, which together can be blended to make all the other colors (a note to the artists among you -- don't get on me about color theory -- LOL! I know that the Red-Yellow-Blue system is not always considered the most accurate model of describing the foundations of color, but it is the most well-known among the "lay public."). White is, of course, the "purest" of the colors; and as we know from observing the passage of light through a prism, white, in fact, contains all of the other colros. So, perhaps the use of the primary colors suggests again the Queen's ability to blend, with the white symbolizing the result -- in which, paradoxically, all appearance of color has been washed away, leaving only the "purest essence"? Although if this is Wegmuller's intent, it might have made more sense to put the white triangle at either the far left or far right, or offset it in some other fashion, so who knows? Just my observation... Okay -- I'll give this one a shot, too. I see the shape in the Queen's hand as likely representing a lotus blossom. The lotus is a flower that blooms in water, not in the earth. So, we apparently have here another reference to the watery nature of the Queen. (?) From above, she pours her watery essence, blending it into the cup of all the elements. Below the cup, she holds the result -- a beautiful blooming flower. The blossom is more than water, and appears above the water. But it is still firmly rooted in the waters below -- remove the watery foundation, and the blossom withers and dies. How does that sound? Here I find the symbolism to be much less specific. Moon and sun symbolism in particular has many meanings. I suppose we might perhaps infer something from the fact that the (feminine) moon is shown as rising above the (masculine) sun, maybe suggesting that the Queen is a card best understood by sublimating the positive pole/energizing/masculine energies and focusing on the negative pole/receptive/feminine energies. Beyond that, I can offer no insight. Maybe the symbolism of the mountains here can be said to reflect the activity of the Queen on a higher level. Mountains touch both sky and earth. They connect the heavens above to the physical world below. So, just as the Queen pours her essence into the cup to create the lotus below, the "heavens" pour their essence into a physical vessel to create the mundane world. So, perhaps we are simply looking here at a restatement of the "one thing," with further information found in the other symbolism about how this principle operates in the watery, watery world of the Cup Queen. If my observations regarding Wegmuller's symbolism are correct, then it might appear as though Wegmuller and Crowley share some agreement on the point of this card. Interesting questions, mehrdad! Thanks for the stimulating intellectual challenge! -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

star streak	27 Jun 2002
Please don't do it! 1. Please re-read what I wrote when I was ranting about drug use. 2. What is sold today as "Lsd", isn't even the 'real' thing, usually. It is likely either some 'designer drug' which would be dangerous to use, or a compound consisting mostly of strycchnine, also known as rat poison. 3. Timothy Leary IS dead. And he was only EXPERIMENTING, anyway. Even the Beatles have given up on drugs as a way to enlightenment-Lsd doesn't help most folks 'find god'-it just makes them crazy for a while. Why do you think so many people STOPPED taking it? 4. It is way too risky a substance to take the chance. You have no idea how dangerous this substance can be. Think-the hallucinations and 'experiences' one has while using Lsd would be considered symptoms of severe schizophrenia by any doctor. Schizophrenia; severe. NOT a fun thing, and NOT enlightening. 5. It is UNneccessary! Many other ways to grow spiritually! Not so dangerous! Why take the chance that it might go badly for you? You might find terror like you've never known possible on your 'trip'. You might never come down. You might 'fly' off a roof, only to discover the reality that you can't fly, not in this body, this dimension. These things DO happen to some people when they trip! PLEASE, DON'T! Think long and hard about this. Please! Love, love, LOVE, StarStreak P.S. the white spots on the Red mushrooms are fatal poison. even if you cut out the white spots, you will vomit a LOT if you eat these mushrooms. What does that tell you? Plus, there are 'look alike' mushrooms that WILL kill you, no matter what you cut out of them. Blessings to you, friend. StarStreak

star streak	27 Jun 2002
Thank you for the information, links; as well as the inspiration to discuss and consider! This has been fun. thought provoking, and informative! Love, Light, and Blessings to you all, StarStreak

mehrdad	27 Jun 2002
Dear MeeWah, and Star Streak Thank you for caring and advice, of course I am not going to mass up with my mind by using LSD and the fact is that I do not even drink coffee, I have never used alcohol, and I do not even know how beer taste. I sometimes have a crushing pain and my doctor has given me “CELEBREX”, but I have never used it even once. Because I am one of those who believe that vegetations are friends until there are killed by being processed artificially. Beside, there is no way for me to find LSD in any shape or form. In any case, there are other ways to go to an alternate state, like fasting, tolerating unbearable pain, dreaming, reading books about Tarot and trying to figure out a symbolic form on a card, and thinking about a mathematical equation, and many other things. I really appreciate your concern, it makes me feel that I have many good friends whom I have never seen in person but I can relate to them through my heart.

mehrdad	28 Jun 2002
Jeannette Thank you for taking time and providing me your stimulating insight about this card. After reading your post I tried to find some information about Neuzeit deck but I could not find anything, except a set of four cards in Aeclectic tarot decks collection, and they indeed look very odd and strange (I like outlandish things). I have been looking at this card for an hour now and after reading your take about it, I think I am starting to understand it much better. Almost all your analogy about the card makes sense to me, specially the watery nature of the queen. I think the LSD and the psychedelic mushroom symbolism in the card is referring to the fact that this card should not be observed through our outer vision but instead we should sense it with the inner eye. Since the truth is not what we perceive but what is veiled behind the scene. We are usually inspired in our own depth and are guided by what cannot be seen. I think the water that is being poured into the chalice might be a reference to the feminine, moist and the nourishing vulva that is a symbol of rebirth, and since the Sun is there in the bluish sky, it might be a symbolism for reincarnation. The crescent moon might be a reference to the motherhood (because of its arched shape). The blossoming lotus might represent the beauty rising from a “filthy” source that is opening itself to the light. The queen of cups in this card might be the wise “anima” described by Dr. Jung. She is the ruler over our unconscious side. She is not our mother but the dark unchanging character that guides us by her wisdom through our dreams. She is secretive because she cannot be understood through scientific reasoning. She is mysterious because she only reveals itself in archetype symbolism. Thank you again, I really enjoyed discussing this card with you.

Jeannette	28 Jun 2002
Mehrdad: Thank you for sharing your own insights on the Neuzeit Queen of Cups card. Your comments regarding rebirth/reincarnation symbolism are particularly interesting, and seem to fit well with my hypothesis that there is an overt representation of the Hermetic axioms here -- "As Above, So Below" and "As Below, So Above." The Tarot Garden server is in the middle of transferring to a "new home," so I've been unable to post new database entries for the last few days. But I did go ahead and scan a few other cards from the Neuzeit, if you'd like to study them. Once our new server is online, these pictures might "go away" until I get them uploaded to the new host, but until then, I thought you might enjoy them. The URL is: http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/images/n-decks/neuzeitcards.gif I've included the Page of Cups card in this batch, as an interesting contrast to the Queen. Unfortunately, much detail is lost in the scans, but our Page here is also pouring something into a cup... but it isn't water! There are a myriad a symbols flowing from his arms (actually, his chest, probably), including everything from an Egyptian Ahnk and Christian Cross to a ladder, a rifle, and a syringe. The tiny syringe -- not really visible in the picture, but located just above the Page's right-hand "pinkie" finger -- is one of the few other drug-related symbols I've been able to locate in the images of this deck so far. Although, as you'll also see from the scans, our friend Mr. amanita muscaria makes another appearance on the "Temperance" card. In any case, below the Page's cup, the symbols change to circles, and stars of all maner of sizes, shapes, and numbers of points. An interesting parallel to the Queen card, which may lend itself well to a compare-and-contrast exercise. Enjoy! Best, -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

mehrdad	29 Jun 2002
Jeannette Very nice scenery! I particularly like “The HERMIT”, but unfortunately because of the quality of the picture, I cannot figure out the shape of the Lantern and so many other things in the picture. However, it is quite obvious that the lantern is as bright as the sun in the daylight because of the way the old man shadow is reflected in very bright lowland. Obviously the wise man is searching for something and I think the eye over him might be trying to highlight that. The Hermit in this card is not bended but is rigid and standing upward and it seems that his yielding movement is ready to take the next step forwards. The shape of the staff is also very interesting. The staff has a serpent wand and its bottom part is pointed and sharp and is highlighted with a different color (the color of the blood?). The serpent might means poison and the blood might means fetus. This is probably to show that the old man knows and sees the mystery of creation or the original source of all life (the serpent in the holy books and the Eve the source of life on Earth). I think the field is also another indication about the old man’s knowledge about the foundation of existence. I really like this deck and I searched the Amazon but this deck is out of print. In any case I am unemployed right now and I cannot effort it but as soon as I find a job I would try to buy it from a used source and then perhaps you would like us to discuss the symbolisms (this is my drug) on this beautiful deck. Thank you for introducing it.

Jeannette	01 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by mehrdad ...I really like this deck and I searched the Amazon but this deck is out of print. In any case I am unemployed right now and I cannot effort it but as soon as I find a job I would try to buy it from a used source and then perhaps you would like us to discuss the symbolisms (this is my drug) on this beautiful deck.... Mehrdad: The Neuzeit is not out-of-print, despite what Amazon may say. It simply does not have a North American distributor at the moment. When you are in a better position to purchase this deck someday, feel free to write, and I'll see what I can do. We've had used copies of the Neuzeit available before, although I don't think that we have any in stock at the moment. But that may change. I would very much enjoy discussing this deck with you further, and I'm sure others would, too. I look forward to seeing you begin a discussion thread on the Neuzeit someday, when you are able to do so! -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Sorceress_Jade	06 Jul 2002
I’ve never done a reading on acid, though I have dropped many times. I’m not condoning anyone to experiment with anything they can’t handle. If you are afraid, in any way, don’t do it. Trust that much. However, I have found, myself, some very profound things, particularly on one very hard trip. If I ever drop again, I’ll have to pick up a deck. You’ve all got me interested now. I have read cards on Ecstasy (mdma or mda) before, however. First and foremost, it’s very difficult to concentrate. However, ecstasy has been known to heighten precognitive abilities and of course emotional awareness. The reading that I performed for another person was accurate, and to the point. The ones I did for myself, as they are when I am sober, were screwy. I admit that I was fearful my deck would be upset with me over it, but I used my easiest going and most loving deck and it was perfectly fine. I actually asked it, to be sure we were straight, some days later. It was pleased that I shared it with others in fact. One of my local friends doesn’t pick up his cards until he’s taken a couple hits of weed (marijuana). I, personally, would never be able to concentrate on the cards. He, however, finds that it relaxes him and opens up his receptiveness. Just a couple of tid-bits to take into account. Thought I’d share.

meatbox666	08 Jul 2002
LOL Well, I see that it has a nicotine rings and amino groups, and amide group, along with several cyclohexanes HEYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, Thats a Drug she's making. It is the stereoisomer Lysergic Acidc Diethylamide. LSD

All Is One	08 Jul 2002
Lost control of my third thread .... ;) Everything I post as a thread goes wacko. . . Not a great reflection upon mine own persona--- (Dark side speks loudly and doesn't need to carry a weapon?) I was so busy in mundane/artistic/more mundane (ick) Matters... Never could stand the idea of taking LSD or Mushrooms- can't get high... as the much over used saying went: "too much information" I meant " ~~trippy decks~~" as in the very scary, thoughtful, and DEEP...Giger... It really stirs up the ID, the Jim Morrison ghosts, and other cave- old archetypes. It is one of the 8 decks I just got. My first impression ? *** J. C. Jesus: jump back and swim for it !! *** . . . need to think on this particular ~trip~ and hide under the bed for a while {hey- don't let me interrupt; you guys were at a very high rpm...} ~alison ( scared off the idea of starting a new thread for a few. . .She is tripping lightly back into her closet W/her guitar and her leather, her beads and her dreams...)

purplelady	08 Jul 2002
Oh star streak! When we spoke a sentence, there were 10 "hidden" words after every word that I never noticed before. This must be the language of the Gods? And over the horizon , the world just exploded. And then I ended up naked , but I don't remember how. And I don't remember the content of the conversation But I know it contained all the secrets of the universe. And when I hear that warm thunder in my brain I Can Not stop laughing for hours! It feels like we're jumping on pogo sticks. My brain cells are kidney shaped and covering the room. I've died and it's the most wonderful experience, but I can't tell you, I feel embarrised. I've always loved that 70's wall paper and can Really get into it now. I'm sitting in my room with my 2 friends , silent, BUT our eternal spirits ARE actually conversing above us. This I know for sure. Yes, coming down stinks . I haven't taken LSD for .............close to 20 years. The joy was so great that I Did have to make a conscious decision that I needed to live out my life without it because my life probubly does have a purpose. So I chose. But then I also managed to quit smoking plain old cigarettes by "choosing" .........and A LOT of prepping myself for it psychologically. No teenagers shouldn't do it, they should wait 'til they're a grandparent! Nevermind most of the drug experimentation Is by teenagers , and some of them Will do it no matter . (Just tell me No if you want me to do it!) Well , I'm not condoning anything , and I wouldn't even smoke a marlboro Now much less take anything else. I don't even take Aspirin! And it Does bother me that so many kids are on ritalin and so many women are on prozac. And it bothers me that Some drugs are Legal and some are not and Some legal drugs seem to really be getting a push by the corporate powers. Anyhow, this kid I worked with at my last job went around one day saying "I'm legally insane" so when someone (me :) ) asked her what she was talking about, she said that she was legally considered insane because she had ingested more than 10 hits of acid. I think this was the u.s. military's definition. Timothy Leary may be dead, but I think his body is cryrogenically frozen and flying around the moon. I am totally serious. Think I'll put that "Neuzeit" deck on my very long wish list. trippy.

the hermit	09 Jul 2002
This thread is marvelous, simply marvelous. Well, drugs and the Tarot… Interesting symbolism on the Queen of Cups and yes… Who IS the cup for? I think it’s great symbolism. You know why? Just look at the responses it invoked here. That’s what Tarot symbolism is all about… Invoking thoughtful interpretation! As for drug use in general… As a child of the 60’s… “Some pills make you larger and some pills make you small. And the ones that mother gives you don’t do anything at all. Go ask Alice, when she’s ten feet tall.” Mushrooms, speed, peyote, LSD, marijuana, alcohol, cocaine, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I just wonder what my creativity might be like if I hadn’t… Oh well, I survived in spite of myself, teachers, parents, friends, the jungles of Southeast Asia and corporate America. I think that the great British philosopher, Ringo Starr, says it best… “No, no, no, no, I don’t … (enter method of ingesting drug of choice) no more, I’m tired of waking up on the floor. No thank you please, it only makes me sneeze, and then it makes it hard to find the door!” Now if I could just find work…

star streak	09 Jul 2002
I am laughing out loud, because yes, I remember, but, it took me a minute to realize you were not talking about a sexual experience with someone you really love! (Go ahead, re-read the first few lines of your post, see if it works) Yeah, I know, the 'special effects' of the 'honeymoon' aren't quite the same as when tripping. Yes, it was amazing, and we did laugh a LOT. Yes, that deck is on my wish list as well, (Because it is beautiful and thought provoking, and I now have a fond attachment to the Queen of Cups, for many reasons! Plus, all the people in it seem to exude incredible joy!) Yes, I admit it-I have briefly considered the 'what if' of taking it now, 20 years later, now that I am a grandparent. Thankfully, I've also acquired the wisdom to know when I am thinking like the 'legally insane' person they think I am! :) Maybe I am just getting 'old', but actually, I have far more inner freedom now. Mr. Hermit, I too, love this thought provoking stuff! Personally, I remember my creativity got all confused and had trouble forming substance when 'under the influence'. I've always had wild tendrils of thought and image that twined everywhere, even pre-drug use days. Gathering them up to make a basket is the tough part, and drugs sure didn't help that. Too many irresistable side-tracks that seemed way more important than the original idea, at least long enough for me to stop caring about the original idea. Love, Light, Blessings to all, Star streak

the hermit	09 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by star streak Mr. Hermit, I too, love this thought provoking stuff! Personally, I remember my creativity got all confused and had trouble forming substance when 'under the influence'... Love, Light, Blessings to all, Star streak Yes, 'under the influence' did also cause me mucho brain confusion... And I really did get tired of 'waking up on the floor' not to mention it was way too often 'hard to find the door' !!! "Youth is wasted on the young!"

star streak	09 Jul 2002
Please, please keep posting new threads! I never know what I want to talk about until someone else brings it up, and then the dam breaks! Have a great day! (I am off to find the other threads you've begun, to see where else I can lose control!) Love, Star streak

All Is One	09 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by star streak Please, please keep posting new threads! I never know what I want to talk about until someone else brings it up, and then the dam breaks! Have a great day! (I am off to find the other threads you've begun, to see where else I can lose control!) Love, Star streak thanks Star streak: I think the discussion on this thread has been fascinating and I bet you could think of one or two topics we could all go off on a tangent for! I love this site...

purplelady	09 Jul 2002
The more I look at this queen of cups, the more fascinating I find her. The sun and moon are next to each other in the sky. And from her hand flows water with some type of crystal ( I think Jeannette said it was the element symbol for water) . But for some reason this action reminds me of the Star card...............The sun , the moon , the stars. Or gathering energy or information from the sky and stars and having it flow out her hand. Then there's some other crystal or star in her other hand. The mountains could symbolize the intellect (one of my dream interpretation books says that). The 4 symbols on the cup Are the 4 elements, earth, water, air , fire. There are 4 triangle or even pyramid shapes on the table near the mushroom. On my computer they appear red, white, yellow, and black (not blue). This makes me think of the 4 races of man , or the 4 corners of the earth in ancient atlantis. (these 4 colors were symbols of those 2 things and are in ancient mandalas ) . So much interesting symbolism! Then I looked at the other cards posted from the deck. The hermit casts his own shadow. The page of cups seems very engaged with his cup! The 3 of wands? I think Wegmuller may have been on drugs! And how about the world? I've saved this one for last. Are those 2 spacemen and is one pregnant?

Jeannette	09 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by purplelady ...And how about the world? I've saved this one for last. Are those 2 spacemen and is one pregnant? Purplelady: The LWB does not comment specifically on the image elements of the Neuzeit cards, but does have this to say about the general symbolism of the "World" card... "The world encompasses everything: body, earth, food, abode, existence. It is the primal mother, echo, and stage of life. The Roms say that the life of each one of us is reflected in the way we treat the earth. The World also represents all possible occupations, as expressed in the changing seasons and their colors. The World is our cradle and our tomb." I don't know if the two figures flanking the globe symbol are better described as spacemen or robots... perhaps we're seeing one of each. The one on the right is definitely pregnant; that is a fetus that can be seen through the window in its abdomen. The LWB mentions "sterility" as one of the possible reversed interpretations, which presents some interesting possibilities when one considers that the fetus, a miracle of nature, is paradoxically being "nurtured" in such a sterile, unnatural enviornment. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

The Drugs and Tarot thread was originally posted on 24 Jun 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.