Why do they come to us (Part 2)

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 18 Jun 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Umbrae	18 Jun 2002
Science, secular humanism and the age of reason have done their best to remove our world of awe and wonder, labelling anything spiritual, or mysterious as fallacious, deceptive, fairy-tale like, and a sign of weakness. It has always been their objective to make us believe that only science is true. If it is not tangible, it is a sham, and false-hearted. The weakness of material science is that in addition to rejecting false ideas, it also rejects many true ideas, simply because they cannot be tested by reproducible experiments-but this does not mean the scientific method is worthless, nor that every sort of "New-Age" hocus-pocus is true. It is the job of science to prove and disprove, not believe. They begin with the hypothesis, and move outward from there. Recently in one of the Washington State universities, they ‘proved’ that Bovine expelled Methane Gas (cow farts) was partially responsible for global warming. This is similar to saying that the Dinosaurs created the Ice Age by not passing enough gas. Currently they are proving that man has ‘caused’ global warming, without studying the natural changes in climate. 100% of all murderers in prison ate candy bars and drank milk as children. It is dangerous to imply causality. How does this relate to us? Folks come to us because their world has been stripped bare of mystery. We have landed men on the moon, we know its specific gravity, we know what it is made of, but we still stand and stare at it with a child-like feeling of awe. But can we find the same awe, mystery, and wonder in our own lives? That is what they come to touch. Sometimes folks get involved in Tarot (or other forms of divination and/or spiritual quest), and leave it after a short time. “I wasn’t getting anywhere,” they say. I have shuffled and spread the cards for 30 years. I am a student. I learn…I know nothing. I am daily reminded that I am always the fool. The more I learn, the stupider I get (some village is missing its idiot). I also grow roses. They show a spurt of growth…then stop. Or so it appears. The roots are growing. Then the roots stop and the green grows, stopping to give way for root growth. We are no different. We get stuck, or so it seems. That is a cycle of root growth…our roots. This is important to remember. Are we going to let folks down because all of the sudden we realize we are still a student? All this time and now we are stuck? We need to keep shuffling, keep reading…learn to grow even when it seems we are not. Folks need us. The more science strips us bare of our mythos, killing our gods, with their ‘proof’, the more folks need us. We must carry on with conviction. Fuzzy-mindedness does not lead to enlightenment.

Rhiannon	18 Jun 2002
I bow to the divine in you - Namaste. You are a wonderful part of the mystery, thank you for reminding us that it needs to be there. Rhiannon :)

zorya	18 Jun 2002
OUCH! there is a lot more to roses than roots, green growth and pretty flowers. i don't know about yours }) but mine come with thorns! i love working in my roses, but if i don't move carefully and CAUTIOUSLY i can really get "stuck"! i find that i even have to back up a little if i want to get unstuck.

Kazz	18 Jun 2002
youv'e done it again Umbrae! ((((clapping and singing Yippee!!)))) And as Rhiannon says, it's nice to be reminded Cheers Kazz:TQC

Jenny-Li	19 Jun 2002
Umbrae - you are amazing! You have that way of pointing out what could become a seed of doubt if noone addressed it, but you do. For all of us! I am so grateful to hear these words, knowing I'm not the only one who doubt at times, wonder what I'm doing and who I'm trying to fool... :) (Or maybe I am...? ;)) Anyway - thank you again! Jenny :) PS: This one though: Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Currently they are proving that man has ‘caused’ global warming, without studying the natural changes in climate. 100% of all murderers in prison ate candy bars and drank milk as children. It is dangerous to imply causality. I don't agree on. Closing ones eyes is equally dangerous as implying causality (though I do agree that anything can be "proved" with statistics and scientific studies, it's just a matter of choosing the right angle). We can't keep polluting the earth thinking nothing will come of it. How much do we really expect the Earth to swallow before we start seeing our own role? I think there's a hug, global Karmic lesson to be learned in how we treat our planet - and we're not doing to well with it. I know this was just a means to show your main point with your post, but I just had to comment. Sorry...! Light and love, Jenny

Umbrae	19 Jun 2002
Of course man has caused global warming. Science has proved it therefore it is true. As each of us may have a karmic lesson, I believe too that as a race, we have a karmic lesson. And poisoning the earth is not a good way to go about learning it. Neither is errant blame. Folks sometimes talk about “who were you in a prior life?’ Who cares? If it were important you would remember! Peeking is not allowed. You are supposed to get it right without reading the end of the book first. This is the only life that matters. Be-here-now I believe were the words of Baba RamDas. Ponder this for me. News. Way back when, Chet Huntley and David Brinkley did the Huntley –Brikley report. 30 minutes of international and national news (smoking the whole time). Then we had 30 minutes of local news. Now we have been taught that we need, one hour of local news, 30 minutes of international news, followed by another hour, followed by 20/20, 60 Minutes, Dateline, Newsline, ET, Hollywood Extra, Nightline, Today, Tomorrow, Special Reports and on and on…and we fall for it every time. They effing invent news stories and we fall for it. Folks are so ‘concerned’ with what is going on across the globe; they IGNORE WHAT IS ACROSS THE STREET. IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD! Global warming? Change the world? It is easy. Change yourself. Then. Walk the walk. Let your actions talk the talk. Like I said, "We must carry on with conviction. Fuzzy-mindedness does not lead to enlightenment."

Umbrae	19 Jun 2002
I would like to take a moment and aplogise. I started typing and just…went. Back to the point. Read my prior post. Now read it again. What kind of world do most folks live in? Do they have any hope? Do yourselves a favor. Blow up your TV. Destroy all fluorescent lighting (it will steal your soul).

Jenny-Li	19 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Blow up your TV. Toss away the LWB and blow up the TV - now here's some good sound advice...! :D :* :D Gotta love you Umbrae, and I do! I hear your words loud and clear, and I agree on the main issue. The global focus of the news broadcast makes it SO easy to fall in the trap of pointlessness: "What can little me do about it - nothing!" - and that IS dangerous. We can't sit back and wait for others to act for us. Will bringing back mystery into the life help make things better? After reading this post, heck yes! Cause it'll bring back the wonder, the love of small stuff, the sense of connectedness... Umbrae - I'm pretty sure you're on to something here! :D Jenny :)

Umbrae	19 Jun 2002
It was once said by the great Bjorn Borg, "The ball is now in your court".

Geenius at Wrok	19 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Science, secular humanism and the age of reason have done their best to remove our world of awe and wonder, labelling anything spiritual, or mysterious as fallacious, deceptive, fairy-tale like, and a sign of weakness. As a secular humanist, I say: false. "Secular": outside the aegis of organized religion, worldly. "Humanism": belief in both the possibility and necessity of self-development and in the priority of interpersonal relationships over theological concerns. In other words, the belief that humans have a responsibility to other humans that needs no supernatural or ecclesiastical justification. This in no way precludes interest in or acceptance of the scientifically unexplainable. Bad enough that the evangelicals slag secular humanists as enemies of virtue; now we've gotta deal with it from the metaphysicals too. Peachy.

Umbrae	19 Jun 2002
Secular Humanism is a way of thinking and living that aims to bring out the best in people so that all people can have the best in life. Secular humanists reject supernatural and authoritarian beliefs. They affirm that we must take responsibility for our own lives and the communities and world in which we live. Secular humanism emphasizes reason and scientific inquiry, individual freedom and responsibility, human values and compassion, and the need for tolerance and cooperation. Humanism is a general term for outlooks on life distinguished by the following characteristics: Use of critical reason and scientific methods of inquiry in seeking solutions to human problems. A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith. A constant search for truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it. A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us. A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well being and individual responsibility. A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas, good will and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children. Secular humanists are distinguished by an emphasis on scientific methods of knowing, separation of church and state, and a commitment to the pursuit of humanist goals outside religious frameworks. From earliest times people have sought answers to questions about the meaning of life and how best to live. The humanist tradition, with origins in ancient Greece, China and India has had many forms, but has stressed the ability of men and women to find viable answers to life's basic questions through critical thinking and free and open inquiry. Humanism is associated with philosophies of all cultures and periods that share a critical approach to conventional dogma, concern with understanding nature and humanity's place in it, and a desire to secure the good life for men and women in a context of individual self-determination, political freedom, and social justice. In Western antiquity, Greek and Roman philosophers began the humanist tradition by seeking to understand nature and human values through observation and reason. Like later humanists, they insisted that ethics should be based on natural rather than divine or authoritarian principles. Humanist thought in the Renaissance and Enlightenment sought moral virtue through knowledge and free inquiry, and laid the foundations for modern scientific discovery and democratic principles of government. Humanists do not pretend to have found all the answers to humanity's questions, nor do they advocate libertine or totalitarian principles. What they do believe is that critical thinking in an open and tolerant society offers the best hope of making progress towards a world where each individual can live a rewarding, fulfilling and responsible life. (from “Council for Secular Humanism” and “Washington Area Secular Humanists”)

Lee	19 Jun 2002
Hey, Umbrae, that must have been a lot of typing! :) But I don't see how all that stuff necessarily negates what Geenius said. One can be interested in the scientifically unexplainable and at the same time use critical reason and scientific methods of inquiry in seeking solutions to human problems. I think I would have to agree with Geenius on this. -- Lee

Umbrae	19 Jun 2002
Quote: Secular humanists reject supernatural and authoritarian beliefs. As stated, the immediate above as copied from two web sites. No statement of or about secular humanists are mine, but taken in context from their own sites, where they advocate science over faith, supernatural, or the unexplained. It is not my argument. I have nothing against Science, reason, or logic. To imply such is to take what I have stated, and what I believe, out of context. I only object to science and reason, when it is improperly applied in a way in which the human condition is stripped of traditions, values, and mystery.

jema	19 Jun 2002
i read and enjoyed both of these posts Umbrae, you have a way with words that touches our hearts. thanks for sharing.

Lee	19 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I only object to science and reason, when it is improperly applied in a way in which the human condition is stripped of traditions, values, and mystery. Well, I don't think anyone would disagree with you there. But you seem to be implying (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure why else you would post those quotes) that that sentence defines secular humanism. The extensive quotes you typed about secular humanism don't say that the human condition should be stripped of traditions, values and mystery. -- Lee

Umbrae	19 Jun 2002
Well you know, the pro’s and con’s of secular humanism was never the topic of the original post. This is a side tangent started by a liberal pen in a conservative hand. When one stands up for something, or takes issue with a small portion, best know what it is you really stand for. “Bad enough that the evangelicals slag secular humanists as enemies of virtue; now we've gotta deal with it from the metaphysicals too. Peachy.” I am sorry I offended a brother Aeclectic. I attempted to explain why (“Secular humanists reject supernatural and authoritarian beliefs.”), etc. Did I attempt to define secular humanism in one sentence? No. However, the quotes used were not enough to still the tangent that moves us away from the target. To review the issue: “Science, secular humanism and the age of reason have done their best to remove our world of awe and wonder, labeling anything spiritual, or mysterious as fallacious, deceptive, fairy-tale like, and a sign of weakness.” I am talking about people, and why WITH science, and secular humanism, AND the age of reason…why do they still come to us to ‘read their cards’. The world has been stripped of wonder and mystery, and they still come to us. Religion is supposed to provide for their spiritual self, and still they come to us. Trust in God they are told, and still they come to us. People go to psychiatrists and psychologists to work out their issues, and still they come to us. I can get to the basis of a persons problem quicker than a shrink can in six months. WHY! This is not about word games, or using half-truths and quotes (we covered that already). This is not about semantics. This is about mystery…and our role in helping to restore it to the lives of others.

Lee	19 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae “Science, secular humanism and the age of reason have done their best to remove our world of awe and wonder, labeling anything spiritual, or mysterious as fallacious, deceptive, fairy-tale like, and a sign of weakness.” I'm sorry, Umbrae, but I don't think anyone is playing word games. I happen to believe that your sentence quoted above is incorrect. If that sentence is so tangential to your point then perhaps you shouldn't have included it in the first place. But the sentence itself is (in my opinion) a sweeping generalization, and I don't think it's supported by your quotes from secular humanist texts. It seems to me that what those texts are basically saying is they believe that rational solutions should be sought to human problems. I don't think they really address what a person's religious beliefs may be; they simply advocate putting aside those beliefs when dealing with problems of humans living together and with their environment. Given the history of religious wars, etc., I think this is entirely sensible. They're not trying to remove awe and wonder from the world. Further, when the texts say "A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith," I don't see this as anti-religion or anti-spiritual at all. In fact, although I'm not Pagan, I would be willing to bet that most Pagans would agree entirely (I'd welcome a comment from any Pagans who read this). I'm sorry to keep dwelling on the quoted secular humanist texts, but you did post them, and so I'm assuming that you had some reason for doing so and that it had some bearing on what you're saying. I'm really not arguing with the general intent of your original post, Umbrae, and I do think you've made good points which are certainly worth thinking about. I just think we need to be careful to not get so enthusiastic about getting our points across that we make overgeneralized statements about entire groups of people. -- Lee

Umbrae	19 Jun 2002
(Below are not my words, url included) How Do Secular Humanists View Religious and Supernatural Claims? Secular humanists accept a world view or philosophy called naturalism, in which the physical laws of the universe are not superseded by non-material or supernatural entities such as demons, gods, or other "spiritual" beings outside the realm of the natural universe. Supernatural events such as miracles (in which physical laws are defied) and psi phenomena, such as ESP, telekinesis, etc., are not dismissed out of hand, but are viewed with a high degree of skepticism. Are Secular Humanists Atheists? Secular humanists typically describe themselves as atheist (without a belief in a god and very skeptical of the possibility) or agnostic (without a belief in a god and uncertain as to the possibility). Secular humanists hail from widely divergent philosophical and religious backgrounds, ranging from Christian fundamentalism to liberal belief systems to lifelong atheism. Some have achieved a comfortable secular humanist stance after a period of deism. Deists are those who express a vague or mystical feeling that a creative intelligence may be, or was at one time, connected to the universe or involved with its creation, but is now either nonexistent or no longer concerned with its operation. Secular humanists do not rely upon gods or other supernatural forces to solve their problems or provide guidance for their conduct. They rely instead upon the application of reason, the lessons of history, and personal experience to form an ethical/moral foundation and to create meaning in life. Secular humanists look to the methodology of science as the most reliable source of information about what is factual or true about the universe we all share, acknowledging that new discoveries will always alter and expand our understanding of it and perhaps change our approach to ethical issues as well. http://www.secularhumanism.org/intro/what.html My comments do not stand corrected.

Lee	20 Jun 2002
I've read this latest quote carefully, and I still don't think it shows that secular humanists "remove our world of awe and wonder, labeling anything spiritual, or mysterious as fallacious, deceptive, fairy-tale like, and a sign of weakness.” I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree! :) I do appreciate (sincerely) the opportunity to read the secular humanist quotes, I find them quite enlightening. I also appreciate the opportunity to participate in this discussion and the Aeclectic forums in general. I hope the tone of my posts was not too heated. I have nothing but respect and good wishes for everybody! -- Lee

Kiama	20 Jun 2002
There was a very interesting post by AmounrA inthe 'What Makes Tarot Work' thread, where he/she said that science, instead of taking the mystery out of life, etc, as most of us think it does, actually adds the mystery, and helps the esoteric/occult/spiritual sciences evolve too. I agree wholeheartedly with AmounrA on this point, and will quote him/her, if he/she des't mind, to illuystrate my opint, sinceI am not as eloquent: Quote: saying this, I think all the sciences are now making discoveries every day, which really only go to add to the mystery....not take away. A beautiful example of this is the dna spiral, to me this is more 'magick' than the foolish beliefs that went before. The discovery of natures code only goes to underline we are dealing with a major intelligence ......and spirals of life?..show to me that the esoteric students of the past where on the ball. Indeed much of the tibetian beliefs and teachings about the unreality of 'reality' are being proven today by modern 'scientists/psycologists'. Esoteric schools have been aware of relativity for hundreds [if not thousands] of years. Science is certainly not looking directly for evidence of a 'universal mind', but because they are studying the fabric and methods of matter/nature, they are findingevidence anyway. I really believe in the next few years science will openly accept that matter is intelligent.....not god though, this is way smarter than that:-). Nuff said on that matter I think. (Thanks a millon AmounrA! Hope you don't mind me posting that?) Kiama

Geenius at Wrok	20 Jun 2002
¡Ay¡ ¡Ay¡ ¡Ay¡ ¡Esto no se necesita! You can all chill out, because the "official" description of secular humanism undermines itself: Quote: Secular Humanism is a way of thinking and living that aims to bring out the best in people so that all people can have the best in life. Secular humanists reject supernatural and authoritarian beliefs. I told you what secular humanism means to me and undoubtedly to many other people who'd also characterize themselves as secular humanists. No diktat from some self-appointed secular humanist central committee has the authority to overrule that. What are those people gonna say, that they're divinely inspired? I do agree that priority should be given to science over superstition, but that's not tantamount to a total rejection of metaphysics. As far as I'm concerned, I don't have to know how or why the toaster works as long as it makes toast.

The Why do they come to us (Part 2) thread was originally posted on 18 Jun 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.