3rd party reading: Should you or shouldn't you?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

vision	29 Jul 2002
When I was taught tarot by my friend, he said, if you wanted to do a reading of a person who is not present, just ask a question and if you get 'yes' then go ahead but don't do if it says 'no'. However, some people say 3rd party reading (doing reading of a neighbor, friend, boss etc without their conscious permission) is no-no (they say it's intrusive). I guess they have a point. Because my colleague's life is not my business so by finding out about their situation is not going to help them. On the other hand, may be I can either be helpful in a passive way (being compassionate, leave space for them etc). We often practice by reading news paper article and predicting the outcome etc. Coudn't this be classed as a 3rd party reading? And what about the lovely Animal spread created by SAM??? What is your opinion about this? Vision

Marion	29 Jul 2002
Hi vision, When I first starting reading tarot (longer ago than I care to say), I tried reading for others but found it unsatisfactory because I felt I couldn't check the answers so it all felt so vague. That was of course partly because I couldn't read the cards very well when I started, not having AT and only Eden's Grey's dry useless little book. When I started doing I Ching in the mid-eighties, suddenly I was getting very precise readings, and so I started doing readings for other people without them knowing. A few of those and my own discomfort level rose very high. It felt like spying. I must admit I still do it very occasionally if their behaviour is having an impact on me, but generally speaking, no. Sometimes I do a reading along the lines of, "Why is so-and-so doing this to me?". I realize there are valid reasons for doing 3rd party readings, but not casually.

Dark Inquisitor	29 Jul 2002
Quote: [i] Originally posted by vision [/? and what about the lovely animal spread created by sam?? vision [/b] Spying on the private life of animals is very naughty, and we will all burn in eternal hell for this. Repent, Tarotphelia

jema	29 Jul 2002
this is definatly a question where one has to take some time and think it through and form an opinion of ones own. for me it is a no-no. for you it might be acceptable. i don't do it at all. simply because it would be so much better to just do a reading and ask "how can i help and support this person" and do the reading from my own point of view. same thing if i do a reading for a client about her lovelife. then i ask the cards "what does x need to know about her relationship with y and how can she improve it." and instead of asking "does that person love me?" - i can ask "in what ways can my relationship with this person evolve, what options have i and what can i do to invite love into my life?" i believe a tarotreading is done for guidance and not fortune telling and we really can't affect change as good in others as we can in ourselfs. as for the spying aspect - i believe we only get the glimpses we are allowed to get. i really doubt anyone could spy-read on me unless i project certain things. heck, there are times we can't even get a decent reading with a client sitting infront of us begging for a reading. to do it with some distance and with a reluctant/unaware person would be quite a challenge. i must ask rasmus the cat if i can do a reading for him sometime though;) i never even thought about doing readings for pets! i am pretty sure rasmus wouldn't mind a bit - medusa on the other hand - she could give me hell for it. (being a very privat turtle-shell cat)

Helruna	29 Jul 2002
To me a 3rd party reading is a no-no too. I too would rather prefer to see what I or the client need to know about a certain situation or problem and how I can influence it. Like you mentioned for your colleague I would suggest that you do a reading with the focus on what you need to know about the situation for yourself to be able to help this person and see what cards come up. In general, I think a 3rd party is intrusive. I have done some readings in my beginning, but never felt comfortable with it. I feel like snooping around in someone elses personality for some reasons fo the querent that might not always be selfless and just to help the third person... However, if you see nothing wrong with it, go ahead. Well, animals is another point - and gosh, darn, let's burn in hell! If your beloved pet "needs" a reading, or you think you need a reading for him do it! ;) Of course, you can ask them and see what answer you get, just to be on the save side of the grill... :D BB, Helruna

jamesriouxctm	29 Jul 2002
Hello all, Speaking from personal experience, a third-party reading is generally a violation of the third party's privacy. I often compare it to rifling through a person's mail or garbage. While you might turn up some interesting information, generally speaking, you are not acting in the best interests of all involved. You also have to consider this: When client X asks you to do a reading for third party Y, how do you know that the answer you get isn't just a reflection of X's perspective on the situation? Say X asks whether Y loves them. If the Two of Cups comes up, how do you know this is not an indication of X's feelings for Y, and not the other way around? [especially considering that the rws two of cups can be viewed as a card of unwanted advances, or love not being reciprocated!] Most third-party questions can be redirected so they focus on the client. Jema gave some good examples of this. I think this kind of redirection can be done whenever the third party's behaviour has some impact on the client herself. (And if the third party's behaviour has no impact on the client, she shouldn't be asking about it!) Some clients don't realize that a third-party reading isn't always on ethically solid ground, mainly because they see Miss Cleo do it on TV all the time. In most cases, once you tell them that it's not advisable to do a third-party reading, they will either rephrase the question themselves or actually get the third party (usually a relative) to ask for a reading themselves. So it all works out. I do, however, like Vision's idea of doing a "preliminary" reading to see if a third-party question is acceptable. In magical practice it is customary to do a divination before any ritual to see what the effects will be, and this is the same practice applied to Tarot. I don't see how it could have anything but good results, though I would not be surprised if they "nays" outweighed the "yays".

Liliana	29 Jul 2002
I was just going to mention magickal practices. most white practitioners agree you should never cast a spell on someone else without their permission, whether you think its for their own good or not (even a healing shouldnt be done without permission) Tarot for me is much the same thing. I might think doing a reading for someone without permission would give me info that would help them, but its wrong to do it without permission. My biggest metaphysical ethic rule is that if it steps on someone elses free will dont do it. :THP

vision	29 Jul 2002
Quote: (even a healing shouldnt be done without permission) I send people love & light, prayer, healing what ever you call it. Even if I don't know them. (i.e., old people struggling to walk on the street, or like those people who were entombed in USA - thank goodness they are alive!) K. I burn in hell!!! Mind you I often thought it is hell here anywhere :D Vision

wavebreaker	29 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Liliana (even a healing shouldnt be done without permission) Quote: Originally posted by vision I send people love & light, prayer, healing what ever you call it. Even if I don't know them. (i.e., old people struggling to walk on the street, or like those people who were entombed in USA - thank goodness they are alive!) I agree with Liliana in the sense that I always ask for permission before sending someone reiki. However, I do make an exception for situations where you can't ask the person involved for permission, for example small children or a person who is in a coma. In that case I "ask" whether it's ok to send reiki when I start sending it; I'm convinced that if this person doesn't want any reiki, I will feel this, and then I won't continue. As for third-party readings: I agree with what has been said before, that it's better to focus the reading on the querent or have the third party come for a reading themselves.

Mojo	29 Jul 2002
I do 3rd party readings all the time. I have absolutely no qualms about it. I get paid for my services, so what the client asks, I answer. Simple as that. I also do readings about health, and finances, and legal stuff, and all of the other subjects that are supposedly taboo. I'm practicing an ancient and somewhat dubious art. To try to apply modern ethical standards to it is just plain dumb. Our Tarot forebearers were gypsies, fortune tellers, sideshow barkers, hucksters, and countless others on the fringe of society. It is an illegitimate art, but that is part of it's appeal to people even today. For many of my regular clients, Tarot is a guilty pleasure... something they would never readily admit that they believe in, but yet, something without which they apparently cannot live (I can't tell you how upset they get when they can't get their regular readings because of my travel schedule!). One of my regular clients is the CEO of a major international company. He asks me all the time about decisions he has to make which affect millions of dollars and countless people's lives. Does he act solely on my advice? I sure hope not! Am I responsible for any damage he might inflict if he does act on my advice? Hell no! What someone does with the information they get from one of my readings is their business. My responsibility ends when we leave the table. If somoene is foolish enough to invest money or change their health care or take legal actions based on what I tell them in a reading, they need to take responsibility for their actions. I can just imagine someone sitting down in front of a judge trying to justify their behavior by saying, "my tarot reader told me........" The analogy to reading someone's mail is just plain silly. Mail is a tangible, touchable possession belonging to someone, and reading it without their permission is certainly unethical. Tarot isn't tangible. And besides, the cards belong to me, so reading them is entirely my right. Anyone who believes the cards gives them the kind of insight into someone that reading their mail would is just fooling themselves. They're just pieces of paper with pictures on them. To follow the logic you guys are putting forth, then you are acting unethically if you've ever had a conversation about someone who wasn't present or whom you didn't ask their permission to talk about them. If Tarot was in the mainstream, there would be no appeal in it for me. I revel in its shady history. I've never wanted to be just like everyone else and Tarot gives me the opportunity to be a little bit mad, bad and dangerous to know!

Maan	29 Jul 2002
I use to be all opposed to reading for third. But lately i have been changing my opinion. For my summer job and the summer job of last year i work/worked with the mentally handicapted. Not the ones that can talk etc. But the ones that can't talk or in anyway express what they want, feel or need. Sometimes you can find out whats bothering them by looking closely for facial expressions, the sounds or movements they make but most of the time you cant. Last year i was really upset about a boy who did not feel well. Whe did not know what was wrong with him. phisically he was oke but he was unhappy crying and hitting arround. When i got home that night i had an idea and read the cards about this boy. It took me a while to learn to intrepeted the cards in a level so down to earth, so pure and innocent but this year i finally feel i get the hang of it and think i'm doing the good thing reading for or better over these people!

the hermit	29 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo I do 3rd party readings all the time. I have absolutely no qualms about it. I get paid for my services, so what the client asks, I answer. Simple as that. I also do readings about health, and finances, and legal stuff, and all of the other subjects that are supposedly taboo. I'm practicing an ancient and somewhat dubious art. To try to apply modern ethical standards to it is just plain dumb. I don't know Mojo, but saying it's stupid to apply modern ethical standards sounds like a dubious cop-out to me. Using your logic then murder, slavery, human sacrifice... all ancient and questionable practices… are just fine with you. If you want to forego applying modern ethical standards to your own life that’s your choice and any consequences that you might incur are also your choice… but please don’t call the holding of an opposing view on the application of ethics and morals stupid.

Mojo	29 Jul 2002
Truly amazing! From Tarot to murder, slavery and human sacrifice. Congrats Hermit, you get the prize for the most outlandish moral argument I've ever heard. And for the record, I never said I hold no modern ethical standards to my life. I said applying such standards to something like Tarot was dumb. Tarot is not real life. It's a novelty, an artform, a method of expression.

the hermit	29 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo Truly amazing! From Tarot to murder, slavery and human sacrifice. Congrats Hermit, you get the prize for the most outlandish moral argument I've ever heard. And for the record, I never said I hold no modern ethical standards to my life. I said applying such standards to something like Tarot was dumb. Tarot is not real life. It's a novelty, an artform, a method of expression... Thank you... I accept this prize for myself and on behalf all of those who hold to an “outlandish moral argument”. And I want to thank all of my philosophy and ethics professors for helping me win this wonderful prize. Thank you very much. :) I apologize for using the word stupid instead of dumb. But I also ask… again… that you not refer to ones actions as “dumb” when they hold an opposing view to yours, since I, as well as many dictionaries, consider the word "dumb" to be interchangeable with “stupid”. I also apologize for the inference “hold no modern ethical standards to my life”, that was not what I meant, but I can see how my verbiage could be construed in that manner. You have the right to practice whatever moral standards you wish within your life and as applied to the tarot. The fact that you do not appear to apply the same ethical and moral standards to the tarot as I do is still your choice. I simply resented the tone of your post that implied, to me, that I and others were dumb for not thinking the way you do on this issue. Also I believe that Tarot IS part of real life. Meditation, introspection, looking for answers... that's life. But I do agree that it is also a wonderful artform as well as a great method of expression. Thank you once again for the prize. I’m honored! I’ll have my people talk to your people about delivery. :)

jamesriouxctm	29 Jul 2002
Mojo, Perhaps you'd care to explain in more depth why applying modern ethical beliefs to the Tarot is "dumb", not just for you, but (apparently) for everyone who uses the Tarot. Because this is the impression you give with such a sweeping generalization. You may apply whatever moral standards you wish to the Tarot; nobody here can deny that. One of the greatest things about the Tarot is that it can be used in so many different ways by so many different people, and still provide useful answers and insight into the way things really are. So if you want to consider it as a "novelty" and a "dubious art", or even an "illegitimate art", then that is your right. But to claim that, just because the Tarot was used by gypsies and scam artists centuries ago, we _all_ have to act like gypsies and scam artists when we use it today, does not make sense, at least not for everybody. Again, if you wish to practice Tarot in this way, that is your right, and nobody here can stop ypu. However, depending on where you live some of the more zealous lawyers and civil servants can easily try to stop you. If the right laws are still on the books, they may succeed. I have heard of a number of instances in which a Tarot reader was arrested due to the presence of an old law against fortune telling. The ones who didn't serve any jail time were set free because they could prove that they work under a Code of Ethics (usually the American Tarot Association's). I'm sure others have heard of this too. Even if you ignore the fortune-telling laws, most jurisdictions also have injunctions that prohibit giving out medical or legal advice without a license, and charging a fee for it. If you do it for free then you're probably OK, at least in the eyes of the law, but as soon as there is an exchange of money, problems appear. Again, I am sure at least a few readers on this forum have run into this. In my opinion, the primary purpose of a Code of Ethics is to keep readers (especially inexperienced ones) safe from these kinds of pitfalls. As an experienced professional reader, presumably you know your way around and can handle yourself. So the choice of what moral compass you will choose to guide you when working with the Tarot is always yours. But regardless of what school of ethics you subscribe to, you cannot justify forcing that stance on others, either implicitly or explicitly.

MeeWah	29 Jul 2002
How one approaches Tarot is greatly influenced by the personal view. Views are as diverse or as unique as the individuals. What works for some folks will not work for others. Each of us is responsible for determining the individual boundaries & one does not need to agree with an opinion to appreciate the possibilities. Despite the controversial nature of Mojo's comments, I tend to see him as expressing his particular view of *what Tarot is capable of*; to refer to the mystique of Tarot which is partly what attracts an audience; to the traditional or stereo-typical associations connected to its practice, none of which do justice to what Tarot encompasses. In his way, he is being honest & encouraging thinking out of the box. This in no way indicates a lack of respect for the medium. BTW: I refer you to his reading posts. They indicate a formidable insight & understanding of human nature as well as a recognition of the convoluted paths that oft accompany the expressions of same. ~Edited to include: In addition, caution is advised on the context with which adjectives such as "dumb", "stupid" or others of that ilk are used. Such words tend to be subjective & highly offensive.

Umbrae	29 Jul 2002
There is only one reason why I do not like to do third party readings. The question. The answers are easy. If you are asking, “Does John love me”, what you are really doing is looking at what John loves. Most relationship specific spreads do not account for three sets of emotions, person a-person b-the entity formed by the relationship itself! So third person readings become tricky. When Molly wants to know what Sarah needs to improve her life or what ever, the reading will be colored by Molly’s bias towards and about Sarah, without any of Sarah’s situational points!

MeeWah	29 Jul 2002
jamesriouxctm: A belated welcome to you! Your website is fascinating & a pleasure to experience. Your thoughtful comments as well as those of others are very much appreciated.

Sorceress_Jade	29 Jul 2002
I read about things on which i'm curious. I admit that my 3rd party readings thus far have been because a persons issues were causing me issues and i wanted to see what I was working with. I'm think maybe it /is/ sort of like spying if you just randomly read into ppl's lives, but i can't imagine even getting the idea to do it unless there was something bugging me. And if it bugs me, well, it involves me. But then again, i'm selfish, hehe. I have been reading for family and friends lately and am growing somewhat uncomfortable with that tho. Feels as though I may be using too much personal knowledge or opinion. I can't tell, and that makes me nervous. Plus who wants to say bad things to their family and friends. Caught in a rock and a hard place on that one right now :S Wonderful ethics thread here

Mojo	29 Jul 2002
Hermie... We'll send the statuette COD. I suppose using a strong word like "dumb" can feel threatening to some people since I provided no reasoning as to why I find it dumb. I guess it all boils down to defining what Tarot is. I stirred up a real hornets nest a few years ago on these forums with this stance, but I have to be true to my Ace of Swords nature and call it like I see it. Tarot is a card game. Period. Fact: It was created 500-600 years ago as a card game. It was played as a game for a couple hundred years of recorded history. The game was taken on the road by the Romany. Fortune telling was a game. Sometimes a con game, sometimes a fair game. But still a game. Fact: Tarot remained a game for the next 300 or so years until a couple of Victorian dandies decided to introduce drug-induced mysticism into it. Now all of a sudden it's supposed to be some sort of deep, meaningful and magical experience with connections to astrology, the qabbalah, life forces, angels, and who knows what other kind of new age gobbledygook. Please don't take this as a judgement of anyone who believes in any of those things. It's just that they have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Tarot. (and come on guys, you gotta admit that some of the tangents you guys go off on are really out there!) It's a card game. Pieces of paper with pictures on them that enable us to try to intuit answers to someone else's questions. Some of us get really, really good at it. But it's not the cards that do it, it's you the reader who does it. The cards are just the tool to get us talking. It's a game. A gamble, just like it was 500 years ago. A "client" is putting down his or her money to gamble on the future. I'm gambling that I can come up with a story which will be meaningful to them and earn me my fee (for the record, I never collect money for a reading until after it's all over with, and if the querent didn't feel involved, informed, and yes, entertained, they don't have to pay). So if you consider that Tarot is a card game, where do ethics come in? Do you worry about ethics when you play poker or gin rummy? If so, I want to play against you for big stakes. My vacation fund needs a little boost. In other words, trying to apply modern ethical standards to a 600 year old card game is just plain dumb. Sorry if that insults anyone, it's not meant to. Sure, you'll say that this is just one man's opinion, and you're entitled to feel that way, but you can't change history. If I decided to write a book tomorrow that equates the yo-yo with the secrets to eternal life, that won't make it anything but a doorknob on a string no matter how convincing my argument is (note: no offense meant to yo-yo enthusiasts).

Umbrae	30 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo Some of us get really, really good at it. But it's not the cards that do it, it's you the reader who does it. The cards are just the tool to get us talking. Historically accurate, but strongly worded (on both sides in my opinion), perhaps a mite too much so on many participants parts. I for one agree with the above. What is that term I keep using? Learning to read between the cards… Quote: There is only one reason why I do not like to do third party readings. The question. The answers are easy.

Sorceress_Jade	30 Jul 2002
Mojo, you may want to pm squigglywiggly you two seem to have somewhat similar views and may find a lot to chat about. I really appreciate your strong ideals on the subject. I'll admit that I agree on some points and not on others, but i won't pick it apart. I'd like to also say that I appreciate your way with words. You have the ability to be strong and even somewhat angry without growing childish. But I'd also like to remind /everyone/ to calm down. Opinions and beliefs and tender toes boys and girls, watch your step or you may be putting your own in danger.

The 3rd party reading: Should you or shouldn't you? thread was originally posted on 29 Jul 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.