Discretion

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Sullanciri2002	11 Jul 2002
Hello - I know that it might not have been your intention to start a real thread here ... but I can certainly relate to your situation in that you have to be carefull who to tell about reading the tarot. In my case this is related more to my occupation and reputation as a very analytical and strictly logical business-consultant ... and I'm sure that neither my employer, nor most of my clients would have much faith in my work if they discovered how deep I am into tarot and the likes. Sad, isn't it ?

wavebreaker	11 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sullanciri2002 I'm sure that neither my employer, nor most of my clients would have much faith in my work if they discovered how deep I am into tarot and the likes. Sad, isn't it ? Why are you so sure about that? Have you tried it? I'm also supposed to be a very analytical person, working in the IT business. I've only told a few colleagues I work with tarot and they were all pleasantly surprised and some immediately asked me for a reading... ;) Then again, the fact that one has to be so careful about it is indeed sad, especially if it would influence other people's opinions about your abilities in other fields. :(

Sullanciri2002	11 Jul 2002
I haven't actually tried, but one of my colleagues "blabbed" ... and that indirectly led one of my biggest clients to stop working with me. In the client's words "We cannot have confidence in the advise of someone whose scientific insights might depend upon a less-than logical approach of our concerns." end quote. So you can understand that I'm not taking any risks, yes ? If push comes to shove, people have always "shunned" things they can't understand themselves ... even my own wife tends to hide behind wilfull ignorance and often prefers to lead a shallow life (being a psychologist, I couldn't have chosen a partner that isn't completely neurotic).

wavebreaker	11 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sullanciri2002 So you can understand that I'm not taking any risks, yes ? Yes, Sullanciri, I can understand. I think if people would make such a big problem out of it for me, and judge me by what I'm doing in my spare time instead of the actual work I'm being paid for, I wouldn't feel comfortable working in such an environment anyway.

Sally Gardens	11 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sullanciri2002 I haven't actually tried, but one of my colleagues "blabbed" ... and that indirectly led one of my biggest clients to stop working with me. In the client's words "We cannot have confidence in the advise of someone whose scientific insights might depend upon a less-than logical approach of our concerns." Tell that to Watson and/or Crick, whoever it was that dreamed the structure of DNA. And tell that to Einstein, who said, "Imagination is more important than knowledge," among other things indicating that science is as much the art of using the nonlogical/creative in conjunction with the logical/analytical. But hey, what did Einstein know about science? He didn't even get good grades in school...

Lightlike	11 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sullanciri2002 I haven't actually tried, but one of my colleagues "blabbed" ... and that indirectly led one of my biggest clients to stop working with me. In the client's words "end quote. So you can understand that I'm not taking any risks, yes ? If push comes to shove, people have always "shunned" things they can't understand themselves ... even my own wife tends to hide behind wilfull ignorance and often prefers to lead a shallow life (being a psychologist, I couldn't have chosen a partner that isn't completely neurotic). I'm sorry to hear that Sullanciri2002 but I'm glad to meet (even if its just on-line) a psychologist/therapist that has an interest and faith in something as taboo/radical as tarot. I'm on the otherside of the fence: Discretion isn't my forte. I have told a few therapists I'm interested in such things and they think I'm going off the deep-end... It's actually funny because I just suffer from depression not dementia :), in fact, tarot is one thing that lifts my depression. Oh well, as long as they can help me deal with my depression they've done their job and if perhaps I can at least peak their curiosity and get them to think a little bit out of the box then I've done my "job." :)

Dark Inquisitor	11 Jul 2002
On one hand it's bad and a strain to have to hide your tarot talents from others. Of course, they are the losers in the long run. But on the other hand, if got to be really mainstream, we'd have to be watching Kathe Lee Gifford read cards for Rosie O' Donnell all day, then the former Baywatch crew would drop by to do the Cooking With Tarot segment, and we'd have to be tortured all weekend by endless Tarot Tournaments . Little girls would come to the door selling Tarot Mint Cookies on their way to the Church of Our Lady of Tarot Bingo Night. Pretty soon, everybody would know what everbody else was thinking and we'd all kill each other, or time would start to turn in on itself and go backward. So maybe it is better for now to enjoy the secret mystery . Tarotphelia

Lightlike	11 Jul 2002
LOL, Thank you for that. That was just too funny.

MeeWah	11 Jul 2002
I agree! A story or book title might be (with apologies to Agatha Christie, I think): "Ten Little Tarot Cards - & Then There Were None". Or should it be a soap opera: "As The Wheel Turns"?

HudsonGray	11 Jul 2002
So I guess walking into work with the Silicon Valley tarot is out of the question?

MeeWah	12 Jul 2002
Sullanciri2002: Am not making light of your situation, as I can relate. There is a curious synchronicity to this thread, as yesterday all the employees at my workplace were asked to read & to sign a company statement against sexual harassment that included harassment based on religion, nationality, political affiliations or sexual preference. There is a saying that "discretion is the better part of valor". Maintaining one's counsel is not wrong nor inappropriate in the interest of self-preservation. Educational & technological advances of our modern era do not, & may never eliminate an instinctual fear of the unknown; the mistrust of the unfamiliar that harkens back to the unenlightened times of man's past. We are not so far removed from human frailties when all sorts of iniquities were perpetrated based on one's beliefs or practices. Indeed, such activities still exist in any framework of the human endeavors. 'Tis a wise person who discerns the difference between "tolorance" & "acceptance". The former denotes a precarious situation that can easily lose its balance. The latter, a respect & understanding that embraces one's unalienable right to live & let live. One's job performance should be what determines competency; not one's private beliefs or practices. Some see them as intertwined & to some extent they are, but the variances are according to the individual. Since workplaces are frequently a fertile ground for gossip, being discreet is a prudent approach.

mondk	12 Jul 2002
Yes, and as some of you may have read in another of my posts here, I had to have a discussion with my young child about who to tell that "mommy has tarot cards". So now, around him, I am careful to say "playing cards" instead of tarot. I am not ashamed of my readings and I look to tarot as a hobby, just like others who like to play bridge etc. I am just surrounded by too many skeptics, I am afraid. Which is why I love our little "psychic study group" or metaphysical group or whatever. We can retreat there and talk about everything. What is suprising to me though, is that some of the more skeptical people I do have contact with has confided to me that in the past, they have phoned psychics etc. Yet I'm still not comfortable yet totally disclosing that I read the tarot. Although eventually, enough people in our small community will end up knowing anyway! Blessings, M.

Sullanciri2002	12 Jul 2002
the hardest thing about the whole business is that what I'm doing with the tarot is not that different from my supposedly 100 % analytical job - both things involve a lot of interpretation and combining multiple pieces of data into a single "advise" - so my skills with the tarot have even improved my work. All in all, I'm glad to have found this site - cause I really do need to talk to someone about my interests, and so far that was not very easy considering the circumstances

MeeWah	12 Jul 2002
HudsonGray: On the other hand, I like your idea! I think its theme could offer a more approachable deck for certain audiences--albeit tongue-in-cheek, I bet it works for readings. & another deck to add to the wish list...This may sound dumb, but from where did you acquire it?

Nightwalker	12 Jul 2002
Although not in the same vein as not telling someone at work I have to be careful of talking "Tarot" around my husband. I've heard everything from "Aren't they from the darkside?" to "Read the cards for me"! Whenever he's home (he's a truck driver) I usually put my cards up and leave them alone. It's easier to do this than get into an argument about what they are and aren't. I do sneak them out when he's sleeping, but always feel like a sneak because I have to hide them when he's around. Nightwalker

VGimlet	12 Jul 2002
Although I am lucky to work in a field where most people are very open-minded, and my husband and some of my immediate family think my interest in tarot is great, I still feel the need for a degree of descretion. I don't have kids, but if I did, I would probably be a bit careful around them, until they were older, at least. Although my sister thinks it's fine for my young neice to talk about her tarot-reading aunt. LOL. I would be perfectly comfortable taking my cards out and reading with them in public - if I was in Seattle. But not where I live - it's only a thirty minute drive from Seattle, but in some respects, its another world. My husband's family, well they are lovely people, but they just don't quite "get" it. Being collectors of things, they understand that part, but the other side...no. I agree with Sullenciri, although I don't need to be quite so circumspect about my tarot interests, it's wonderful to talk to people who are as interested, and even *more* involved than I am. :D

Marion	12 Jul 2002
There have been several comments with which I can agree whole-heartedly. Sadly you are not just judged by the work you do, however high a standard you try and hold. People are going to believe that if you have any ideas that do not fit in with the group-think of your particular group... and goodness knows that can cover a wide spectrum... that you are 'unstable' and somehow their opinions of you 'leak' onto you when you present ideas. In my profession we all have degrees in Physics, sometimes advanced degrees. Physics is considered the 'hardest' of the 'hard' sciences and folks with that background do tend to make little gods of logic and reason. And, women in my profession are generally holding on by their toes at the best of times. They are sidelined and marginalized with frightening ease, and all it would take would be for me to talk about my interest tarot for me to slide into that pool. So, discretion *is* the better part of valour, for me anyway.

Emily	12 Jul 2002
I don't usually go around telling people that I read tarot cards, I'm a private person so only my immediate family know, really only my husband knows how many readings I do and the fact that I carry my tarot cards with me everywhere - he hates it, thinks its a joke, I constantly have to defend my hobby against him. He doesn't believe that the cards will give good readings, he wanted to know why I've got so many decks, I only have 7. I wouldn't care but I've never moaned when he's wasted money on his hobbies that have perhaps lasted a couple of months, then he gets bored. I've been studying the tarot now for well over a year. So sometimes opposition doesn't only come from outsiders and I tend to read when he's in bed or at work, makes life easier.

Marion	12 Jul 2002
I am not married now, but my ex was exactly like that. (well, that's not why we got divorced though)

Emily	12 Jul 2002
Hi Marion, I'd love to be able to read for him but his attitude makes that impossible - the closest I've got is when I've done a reading for him, he not actually being there, and then told him about the reading. Some times he can be so narrow minded :(

Jenny-Li	12 Jul 2002
This is an interesting thread - I've done some thinking about this too, since I'm thinking of setting up a web site. For me it would work as my own personal ventilation board (for all the junk I want to spare you guys...!) as well as a work sample for future employers/clients. Now the thing is I want to include the spiritual stuff, 'cause it just wouldn't be me without it. I may be quite new on this path, but I don't feel at home anywere else, and I aint leaving! So I've had reason to think about this; how will people perceive a web site, which I will refer to as a work sample, discussing sprirituality, healing and tarot?? As much as I find it shallow for people to argue the way Sullanciri's client did, I can still see it being the "normal" way of thinking in the world "out there". It demands a great deal of strength and determination to not put up a show, a singing and dancing act that reflects what's expected of you... But in my case I think I've finally decided I should at least give it a go, see how it turns out. The spiritual movement is growing, a lot of people are asking the "big, secret" questions. As long as you're strong enough to explain what it is you do and what you DON'T do (equally important, at least!), and not just leave people with their own assumptions and prejudice and wild guesses, I think there are a lot more curious people out there, than one dares to believe. At the same time, it is also a question of what you have to loose. I have the relative freedom of not risking all too much, if I were older and established in a position I cherished I might not be so quick taking risks... Hm, just a few thoughts from me...! Jenny :)

MeeWah	12 Jul 2002
Emily: I am so sorry that you have a lack of support for your interests at home. I suspect your situation is more common than mine. It takes a certain sense of self & commitment to continue in the face of adversity, & I wish you well with your endeavors. I am indeed fortunate. My hubby does not quite understand the attraction I have towards such things, but he respects my beliefs & practices & has been very supportive. Though I do not actively discuss Tarot in front of them, members of his family have consulted with me over readings & I have done the occasional reading for him. My kids have grown up with my observances of rituals & seasonal celebrations & send their friends to me for readings. They will not submit to a reading even though I offer for their benefit. They think I know way too much (about them) as it is though they are willing to accept Year Card projections & Lifetime Card insights--probably because they see those aspects as similar to astrology & "non-threatening" :D

MeeWah	12 Jul 2002
Jenny-Li: You GO, Girl!! That you consider it at all is significant. So now is as good a time as any. Also, you do not know what could come of it until you try. Even if it is not a permanent venue, youi would still learn from the experience.

meatbox666	12 Jul 2002
Please hide the pentagrams and tarot decks. People will call us crazy.

Jenny-Li	12 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah Jenny-Li: You GO, Girl!! That you consider it at all is significant. So now is as good a time as any. Also, you do not know what could come of it until you try. Even if it is not a permanent venue, youi would still learn from the experience. MeeWah: Thanks! I will, I've thought of the domain name and all, and I'm terrified that someone will nick it before I get round to it...! And of course I know nothing about HTML whatsoever, but since when am I one to let petty details stop me, huh? Oh, you should only know half of all the wild ideas I have for this thing, it could end up being more permanent than I am...! *lol* My thought is this: if only ONE of those curious persons out there (I know they are there, I was one of them for a long time, and I think my drive to search was stronger than most, since I started getting stuff thrown at me, so what if I can make just ONE person dare start asking those questions out loud? That would be more than I dare hope for. And what if I can just fulfill ONE of all those dreams of mine... gee...!! Late night rant here, waaaay out of the thread issue. What I meant to say was, if you CAN take that risk, there's a lot to gain from it, it's just like everything else, you've got to take the bad stuff with the good...! Jenny :)

the hermit	13 Jul 2002
I can completely sympathize and identify with the questions and concerns voiced in this thread. Some years ago when I was attempting to complete my graduate studies in geology a fellow grad student visited my place. He saw my display case of crystals and crystal balls and said "how unique... you don't do anything weird with those do you?" before I could say anything my wife replied "nothing weird, he just meditates and gazes at them sometimes... oh and he uses that big one to help cleanse his new Tarot decks." Well, by the next day it was all over the department at the university... "guess what I heard about somebody, Tarot cards and crystal gazing?" Unfortunately, the dean of the department didn't think it amusing that one the grad students that he "depended on for maturity and stability" was reading Tarot cards and gazing at crystal balls. I didn’t finish my grad work. Nothing definite was said after that about my ‘peculiar’ hobbies, but my ‘A’ work suddenly became ‘C’ work, which is not acceptable in most grad programs. I was put on academic warning. Now I KNEW the material... hell, I was teaching 2 undergrad courses in geology and petrology. When my grades didn’t improve the next semester I was dropped from the program. I visited an attorney. He told me he’d take the case, but I’d have to pay up front because he didn’t think we could prove bias. I saw another attorney but he said the same thing. Academic grading is so subjective that it is very hard to prove bias. Plus it often takes years for these type cases to develop. I had neither the money or the time, so I let it go. I really didn't want to work for an oil company anyway, but I deserved the damn piece of paper... oh well. I’ve also had some unpleasant experiences at various work places. So I’m fairly careful about what ‘mundanes’ I let know about my various ‘hobbies’, especially work colleagues.

fairyhedgehog	13 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Jenny-Li This is an interesting thread - I've done some thinking about this too, since I'm thinking of setting up a web site. If I were you, I'd get your web name before it goes. I use www.easily.co.uk to get web names etc. but people may know of a better provider. HTML is dead easy to learn :) I really look forward to seeing your website. I took Tarot off my main website, which is linked to my real name, when a potential counselling client was put off by the Tarot aspects. Also I am really afraid of being 'found out' at work - I work in a primary school and it would be a serious problem if people thought I might be involved in the occult. There is a lot of prejudice in schools, and in England you aren't allowed to 'promote homosexuality' in schools, so coming out if you are gay is a problem too. Not a good place to get known as tarot-reader. I'm working to set up a Tarot-only website, but I don't have much time these days.

Sally Gardens	13 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by the hermit I can completely sympathize and identify with the questions and concerns voiced in this thread. Some years ago when I was attempting to complete my graduate studies in geology a fellow grad student visited my place. He saw my display case of crystals and crystal balls and said "how unique... you don't do anything weird with those do you?" before I could say anything my wife replied "nothing weird, he just meditates and gazes at them sometimes... oh and he uses that big one to help cleanse his new Tarot decks." Well, by the next day it was all over the department at the university... "guess what I heard about somebody, Tarot cards and crystal gazing?" Unfortunately, the dean of the department didn't think it amusing that one the grad students that he "depended on for maturity and stability" was reading Tarot cards and gazing at crystal balls. I didn’t finish my grad work. Nothing definite was said after that about my ‘peculiar’ hobbies, but my ‘A’ work suddenly became ‘C’ work, which is not acceptable in most grad programs. I was put on academic warning. Now I KNEW the material... hell, I was teaching 2 undergrad courses in geology and petrology. When my grades didn’t improve the next semester I was dropped from the program. I visited an attorney. He told me he’d take the case, but I’d have to pay up front because he didn’t think we could prove bias. I saw another attorney but he said the same thing. Academic grading is so subjective that it is very hard to prove bias. Plus it often takes years for these type cases to develop. I had neither the money or the time, so I let it go. I really didn't want to work for an oil company anyway, but I deserved the damn piece of paper... oh well. I’ve also had some unpleasant experiences at various work places. So I’m fairly careful about what ‘mundanes’ I let know about my various ‘hobbies’, especially work colleagues. Wow. I am appalled that someone can take a petty prejudice over something that's none of their damn business and use it to ruin your academic career, not to mention wasting the thousands of dollars (and hours) you'd already invested in your graduate classes. Maybe I'm more idealistic than I ought to be, because I tend to be a fairly open person, at work or elsewhere (I live in the Minneapolis area), believing that we really do have freedom of speech and belief and to be who we are, as long as we harm none. So far, the worst that's happened is people think I'm weird - but they'd think that anyway, even if I held back. :D The irony in this and the other horror stories, of course, is that the people causing you trouble over your use of Tarot, etc., are condemning you for being "irrational" - and then turning around and behaving completely irrationally themselves in their reaction to this knowledge about you. Legal recourse might be too expensive and futile, but schools and other institutions hate bad publicity, so maybe if word gets out that the Geology Department of XYZ University scuttled the career of an A student over a personal practice that bears NO relevance to the academic work in question, at the least the school might be forced to address the issue and prevent such things from happening to future students. I can't help but wonder, too: Do they discriminate against people who hold "mainstream" but equally "irrational" religious beliefs (e.g., transubstantiation, resurrection, and other "mainstream" beliefs that nobody bats an eye at but are no more grounded in "rational science" than Tarot or crystals)?

Jenny-Li	13 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog If I were you, I'd get your web name before it goes. I use www.easily.co.uk to get web names etc. but people may know of a better provider. HTML is dead easy to learn :) I really look forward to seeing your website. Thanks - so do I...! :D I dad has a firm, which uses this agency for web hosting, and they also register domains. I'm thinking of asking him to register, because he (as a firm) doesn't have to pay VAT for the service, but I would. 25% - no fun way of spending, I'd rather buy a new Tarot deck. Guess that's why I've got stuck for a while, but since both you and Tarotlady are advicing me to grab the name before anyone else does, I think maybe I should dear Daddy-O a ring today...! :) Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog I took Tarot off my main website, which is linked to my real name, when a potential counselling client was put off by the Tarot aspects. Also I am really afraid of being 'found out' at work - I work in a primary school and it would be a serious problem if people thought I might be involved in the occult. Reading all of your posts I'm beginning to think I'm either very naïve, or very lucky. Or just keeping very, very silent within my dark closet of secrecy...! But I guess working, or at least aiming to work, with communication and copywriting, I'm allowed a certain creative space. And if anyone has opinions I can always use the visual arts angle, showing people the fantastic depth of symbolic language in the art of the cards, which could draw anyone to be curious about them. It wouldn't be the full picture, but still a very true part of it. And a part that I think people might be less intimidated by... being more artistic than mystical. It's a compromise, but still... perhaps step by step is the best way to get ahead in this case? With the web site, I'm also thinking of using the "widening your mental perspective-approach", by learning to recognize patterns of behaviour and emotion with yourself and others, because Tarot does that too. This may also be a perspective that people can understand and relate to, without being blinded by fear or prejudice. But as I said, maybe I'm just being naïve, and up for the cold shower of my life...! :D Jenny :)

fairyhedgehog	13 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Jenny-Li Reading all of your posts I'm beginning to think I'm either very naïve, or very lucky. Or just keeping very, very silent within my dark closet of secrecy...! But I guess working, or at least aiming to work, with communication and copywriting, I'm allowed a certain creative space. I think it makes a huge difference where you are, and what field you work in. In the UK, I don't think teachers and others who work in a school can afford to be seen to be involved in Tarot, paganism etc, even though in theory we have religious freedom. But I would have thought that anyone involved in writing or other creative arts could show an interest without there being any problems.

the hermit	13 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sally Gardens Legal recourse might be too expensive and futile, but schools and other institutions hate bad publicity, so maybe if word gets out that the Geology Department of XYZ University scuttled the career of an A student over a personal practice that bears NO relevance to the academic work in question, at the least the school might be forced to address the issue and prevent such things from happening to future students. I can't help but wonder, too: Do they discriminate against people who hold "mainstream" but equally "irrational" religious beliefs (e.g., transubstantiation, resurrection, and other "mainstream" beliefs that nobody bats an eye at but are no more grounded in "rational science" than Tarot or crystals)? From your question it’s obvious that you’ve never had do deal with the wonderful politics of ‘mainstream’ academia in the good ol’ US of A (that’s ok, I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy). Despite our many freedoms here in America, people are still people. Many are petty, hateful, spiteful, close-minded, vindictive, narrow-minded, power-hungry, egotistical, jerks. And academia, especially at the university level, seems to have more than it’s fair share of these wonderful specimens. It is driven by political back-biting and back-scratching at every level. What your peers think of you and your work is often colored by the fact that each year there are always more talented people vying for fewer slots in the grad and post-grad world because of the dependence upon the too often dwindling supply of grant funds, both private and government, that fuels this wonderful system. And too often your ‘mentors’ are more concerned with hanging on to their own position in the pecking order than in helping you advance your education, because as you become more recognized, they are in danger of being displaced from their lofty tower (with all of it’s cushy perks—see also grant money mentioned above). Gee, kind of sounds like the wonderful world of politics in general, doesn’t it. That is why many educators who DO NOT fit into the above description are beginning to worry about the future generations of this country. Many also believe that is why many OTHER countries are beginning to produce more better educated students AT ALL LEVELS, but especially in the science and mathematics fields than the US. Many also feel that gifted and special people such as Albert Einstein could not and would not be accepted and encouraged in our system today. Quote: Originally posted by Sally Gardens I can't help but wonder, too: Do they discriminate against people who hold "mainstream" but equally "irrational" religious beliefs (e.g., transubstantiation, resurrection, and other "mainstream" beliefs that nobody bats an eye at but are no more grounded in "rational science" than Tarot or crystals)? Of course! Though illegal, discrimination, because of sex, race, religion or national origin, as well as sexual orientation (which we know is illegal in some places here, but not enough!) is alive and well in the US of A. All you have to do is read the daily papers. And we all know that for every case that gets press or goes to court, there are probably dozens (maybe hundreds) that don’t. People are people and don’t like beliefs or thoughts or actions that are different from their own. Not all are like this, perhaps not many, but even a few are TOO many. Let me say a few more things from my soap box if I may concerning this… I made a decision to not pursue this issue. I did it based on family, friends, money and time. And I made it over 20 years ago. Times have changed… somewhat. Things have changed… somewhat. People have changed… somewhat. Could this still happen today? Yes! Unfortunately it still happens far too much. Would I approach it differently now? I don’t know. Probably. I don’t have a family to support as I did then. I’m meaner and grumpier now too, and not nearly as naïve. But naiveté is not a bad thing. Just don’t put your head in the sand. THAT is bad, because social injustice is NEVER solved by hoping it will go away. There’s a BIG difference between not realizing that injustice exists in a certain area or areas and knowing it exists but choosing not to fight it. I chose not to fight a lost PERSONAL cause.

Jenny-Li	13 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog I think it makes a huge difference where you are, and what field you work in. In the UK, I don't think teachers and others who work in a school can afford to be seen to be involved in Tarot, paganism etc, even though in theory we have religious freedom. But I would have thought that anyone involved in writing or other creative arts could show an interest without there being any problems. I think Sweden had a revolution of thought some decades ago, which was perhaps more radical than I've ever thought of (and I think it happened before I was even born, back in the late 60's and early 70's, when all the world knew about the sexually liberated Swedes (or so I'm told). It wasn't just that, back then people lost faith, and started believing in other things (humanitarism and politics at first, then came the 80's and the material wealth-decade...), and spiritual stuff has been very much hidden and forgotten about. I know few (if any...?)countries in this world so completely secular as Sweden. Not believing is more normal than believing, and our Christian churches are more or less empty. But the spirit doesn't just go away because we choose to, or are brought up being taught to, ignore it. Sooner or later those questions emerge. Why are we here? What's the point? Is this it? That happens afterwards? I think most people who start asking those questions today end up looking in the direction of the freer spiritual schools of thought, not to the traditional dogms. So somehow I believe that Swedish people's time away from religious thought, might be a good thing when it comes to accepting thoughts like the one we share here. Thoughts like tarot, healing and spiritual energies are less different from no-religion at all, than it is from a 2000-year-Christian-tradition... Now, these are just my thoughts, and may very well be completely off, but reading these posts made me think about why I've never worried, other than from shyness, and fear of not being able to explain it well enough... This might be a key. Jenny :)

Sally Gardens	13 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by the hermit From your question it’s obvious that you’ve never had do deal with the wonderful politics of ‘mainstream’ academia in the good ol’ US of A (that’s ok, I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy). My only experience is in getting my bachelor's degree, and although I had a bad experience with one petty instructor as a freshman at the first university I attended (it took me a while, and several schools and sojurns, with a child thrown in along the way, to finish my degree) my experience was largely positive and that the instructors graded on the work and not on whether they liked or agreed with me. My major was in philosophy, so I don't know if that makes any difference; one of the big emphases in philosophy was to set aside personal prejudices and evaluate things as objectively as humanly possible. Critical examination of assumptions and views, yes; being tossed out on my ear over a difference of opinion, no. And, BTW, back then I was an Evangelical Christian, not a Goddess-oriented pantheistic Tarot afficionado :D but in that environment, the Evangelical Christianity set me up in conflict with the mainstream-to-liberal Catholic/ecumenical setting at my college, so there was opportunity for ostracism, had anyone been so inclined. Hell, I guess I was just lucky. Quote: Despite our many freedoms here in America, people are still people. Many are petty, hateful, spiteful, close-minded, vindictive, narrow-minded, power-hungry, egotistical, jerks. Oh, I am very well aware of THAT. It never ceases to amaze me, though, perhaps because for the most part I live in a social milieu where tolerance, if not acceptance, is the dominant factor. That and I tend to hang out in circles where Pagans abound and the question at any food gathering includes "vegetarian or vegan." (It's always weird when I hang out in the more "mainstream" sectors of the suburbs, where trying to go somewhere other than a steak or burger house can be a challenge.) I'm sure prejudice exists in these parts; I've just been fortunate so far to not encounter it in any way beyond personal opinions of "you're weird" or "you're wrong." They can pray for my immoral soul all they want, as long as they don't fire me or burn a cross on my lawn. ;) Quote: I made a decision to not pursue this issue. I did it based on family, friends, money and time. And I made it over 20 years ago. I didn't realize this was over 20 years ago. That makes a difference; a bit late to do anything, even of the "bad PR" variety. I think that also does make a difference as far as societal acceptance of so-called "new age" and "alternative spirituality" factors. I can wear a pentacle openly at work without reprisal; I'm sure I couldn't have done it at the same company 20 years ago. But - again fortunately - our company has committed itself to honoring diversity, and non-discrimination, and in fact had a huge month-long series of events for Gay Pride Month - and this is a big conservative money-grubbing corporation, not some utopian hippie shop. ;) Evolution does happen. I agree not to stick the head in the sand. My natural inclination is perhaps a little more confrontational - or, rather, open and unapologetic, not necessarily "in your face" - and so my response tends to be, "Hey, this is wrong, I'm complaining about this till I get satisfaction; and if I don't get satisfaction, at the least everyone's gonna know about it by the time I'm done." That, of course, assumes an open-minded social context, not one in which the community, upon learning of what happened, will join in piling firewood around your bound ankles. You're definitely right that you have to choose your battles. I'm not sure if, at my age, I'm naive, but I've remained idealistic enough to still be amazed and appalled at just how sh*tty people can be. The idealist in me wants to do what I can to make the world a better place, and believes people can be persuaded, if I just craft a reasonable enough argument. The cynic in me wants to curl up in a ball in a remote cabin in the northwoods and despair. Anyway, one thing's for sure: You've cured me of the lingering bits of regret I had over not pursuing an academic career. Corporate America's looking less evil right now. :D Maybe because they're accountable to the market, and getting a reputation for bigotry isn't too good for business!

Sally Gardens	13 Jul 2002
Before I make my situation sound too utopian to believe, I should point out that at my company it DOES depend somewhat upon what department one works in. At one of the Pride events, people talked about how being GLBT is accepted in some business units but in others they had to be more circumspect, or even encountered overt hostility. At least the official policy is one of non-discrimination, so people do have that to fall back on if a situation gets intolerable. The basic problem is prejudice. What will it take for people to wake up? Or is this a hopeless dream?

the hermit	13 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sally Gardens I didn't realize this was over 20 years ago. That makes a difference; a bit late to do anything, even of the "bad PR" variety. Just to add a 'humorous' additional note... It was the University of California at Berkeley, a noted 'liberal, forward looking' school. Quote: Originally posted by Sally Gardens The cynic in me wants to curl up in a ball in a remote cabin in the northwoods and despair. Done that (I am a hermit, after all). It was fun for a while, then boring. No bookstores or internet. And even hermits need others, sometimes. Quote: Originally posted by Sally Gardens Anyway, one thing's for sure: You've cured me of the lingering bits of regret I had over not pursuing an academic career. Corporate America's looking less evil right now. :D Maybe because they're accountable to the market, and getting a reputation for bigotry isn't too good for business! Academia isn't always fun, but Corporate America has it's own problems (as we've seen in the daily press). I know of 2 people currently involved in lawsuits with companies in the Silicon Valley over their 'religious' beliefs and how that might have effected their work (they were both dismissed, different companies). Even here in 'liberal' California there are large pockets of idiots. Unfortunately for my acquaintences, the 'liberal' right to work laws in California make it very easy to dismiss someone without showing any cause. This makes it extremely difficult to prove bias. By the way, they both consulted several different attorneys who told them that they had 'some' chance of justice. They both ended up with the same representative whom they paid up-front. They feel that being heard in court will at least provide some justice, even if no victory. Same problem, different arena, as my little encounter.

Sam	13 Jul 2002
I guess i got to this thread a little late, but anyway. God! this thread is talking about my life! like if i told my mother's family, (catholics, nothing against catholocism), they'd go balistic! but like i told my friend tona, and she went out and bought a deck! weird the way life works, huh?

Sullanciri2002	15 Jul 2002
and the days at university ? Okay, it may not be what I was thinking off with this thread originally ... but now that I think back a ways, I suppose my interest for the tarot wouldn't have been a big deal back in university. We had just about every sort of person imaginable in the psych-department, picking that line of studies for the most diverse reasons - and not a few who were thinking more about para-psychology than the so-calles "real thing" or academic program. Pity I wasn't into the tarot then - and that so very few of the people I work with these days have any feeling with psychology. The irony is that so many people in the business-community seem to believe they are working with economic systems, objective methods, etc ... and never understand it's all a game of words and has more to do with what people think than with systems (just think about the way the stock market operates - it has more to do with the way people think a company is doing that with the actual succes of a business - it's enough to get people afraid that shares will drop, and they'll make it happen themselves ...) Sorry, guess I got way ofline here.

catlin	15 Jul 2002
First of all I want to welcome all the newbies here on our forum (I lost a bit count during my holiday). As I work in a very conservative company I am pretty careful about my doings as a tarot reader and practicing Celtic Wicca, although I do not hide my interests ( I wear Pagan jewelry and once a co-worker asked me about that and I told him what the pentacle stands for) but I do not invite them to my public lectures on tarot and Wicca. Luckily, most Germans do not understand much about Wicca but there are still ppl who cross the street when they see me (they are just scared by a dramatic make-up and my bone Kali-Mala), of course I do not wear the latter when I am on work but there is a tiny silver Gargoyle or an Indonesian demon ring which accompagny me to work ;) ;) Some of my co-workers think this stuff cool, others take me for an adept of the Devil, others think I am just eccentric, I do not bother about that. Ok, a former employer wanted to sue me for practicing Voodooism against him when he wanted to get rid off me but imagine the laughter this accusation caused in court. The judge thought my former employer was gone crazy LOL (well, you can bet I did not wear such extreme Pagan jewelry on that day!). Besides, there was never evidence for that. There were cases where folk was aggressed in the tram because they wore a huge pentacle but this happened only to some male Pagans which were taken for Jews (becaus ppl did not know the difference between a pentacle and a six-pointed star).

Sullanciri2002	15 Jul 2002
Catlin, is this the right moment to ask if you really did practice voodoo to get back at a former employer. Have to admit I wouldn't mind voodoo-ïng a few people from my past - LOL

lili	15 Jul 2002
A friend of mine came over my house to visit, she asked me if she could look up something in my cmputer and I said yes, as we walked toward the computer she saw some of my tarot books on a book shelf she inmediately asked me "Are these tarot books" I said yes they are I like to read about it, inmediately she started say how bad tarot was and how by having the books i was welcoming evil spirits into my home, I did not want to start an argument about the subject, I realized she will never understand what tarot is all about ( she is married with a church pastor) so I decided to change the conversation. I have not talked to her ever since this happen, about a month ago.

Sam	15 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by catlin There were cases where folk was aggressed in the tram because they wore a huge pentacle but this happened only to some male Pagans which were taken for Jews (becaus ppl did not know the difference between a pentacle and a six-pointed star). ppl still hate jews like the nazis did in germany? uh oh. guess i'm not going there any time soon.

tabbycat	15 Jul 2002
I work in science/technology and was pleasantly surprised at how easily my colleagues accepted my interest in tarot. Of course, it did help that they knew I was weird anyhow! :) I don't often take cards to work, or I have to do readings for most people. One woman, a staunch Christian, has begged me on several occasions to read for her - the 'occult' nature of the cards doesn't seem to bother her at all. I've also been asked if I was Jewish when I've worn a pentacle. We did have a girl on the staff who wore a Star of David because her father's name was David - she had no idea that the symbol had any religious significance at all! Jilly

wavebreaker	15 Jul 2002
I wear a very small pentacle pendant and the only reaction I've had so far was from a guy in the supermarket who looked at me strangely. Then I saw he had a small Moroccan flag on the sleeve of his jacket: a red flag with a green pentacle! Seems that in islam the pentacle stands for the five pillars of islam.

Kath	21 Jul 2002
I'm discrete at work. I work for an organisation that deals with independent (mainly Christian) schools. My boss is a devout Christian, and the Company head was the only layman in Australia to be given permission by the Anligcan church to conduct ceremonies and weddings. Most of the people I deal with are Christians, who work for Christian organisations (schools, or church groups), so I don't advertise my interests in Tarot or the occult. I just get the feeling that, on the whole, it would not be well received. While reading this thread, I found it incredably sad to see some people feel the need to hide their tarot from partners, or who receive negative reactions from the ones who promised to love and cherish them. I am lucky that my husband is very supportive of just about everything I do, it would break my heart to feel that I couldn't talk to him about my tarot, or that I had to hide it from him. Cheers Kath

The Discretion thread was originally posted on 11 Jul 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.