Dreaming Tarot and Formless form

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

mehrdad	04 Jul 2002
Dreaming Tarot In Tarot books, they always say that when spreading the cards for reading, one should try to make a story by analyzing and connecting the cards. I have seen some individuals on this site (like MeeWah and Diana, who have done some reading for me personally) that can do this masterfully. It seems to me that some people are born with a special talent that makes them able to extract a meaningful and fluent interpretation from a reading. Unfortunately, I am not one of those and so far I have been unable to join seemingly unrelated and contradictory connotation extracted from a spread to create an accurate and meaningful story to even satisfy myself. However, about some weeks ago I dreamed that I was doing a Tarot reading for a girl in my class (a computer class). In this dream, I spread a Celtic cross and I told her that her boyfriend is in a professional school and has broken her heart for not calling her for some time. I also told her that he would call her very soon but eventually their relationship would not last very long. The next day in the class and while in break time I went outside and started to review some of my notes when suddenly the girl in my dream unexpectedly came to me and we started talking about the class and how hot the weather was. I have been in this class for over four months now and even though we sit across each other but this girl and I had never spoken before even once. I thought that her coming to me so suddenly just after my dream could not had been a coincidence so I decided to casually mention my dream to her. After hearing what I had to say she was quite shaken and was wondering how could I know so much about her personal life and she confirmed that her boyfriend is in medical school and she had not heard from her for some time until just last night, when he finally gave her a call. She also admitted that her heart was broken because of his delay to ask about her. In my dream I was very good in reading Tarot and it was as though the cards were talking to me plainly and effortlessly. Contrary to when I am awake, Tarot interpretation seemed a smooth experience and everything appeared to make sense (and obviously it was also true.) Because of this experience, now I believe that the best way to read Tarot is the personal way. Be personal method I mean when a connection is made between the reader and the cards through an unconscious level. I think what others are saying about the meaning of a particular card is what those people have experienced about it and it might not hold true for someone else. I believe that trying to interpret cards by forcing it to form according to the model that others have fashioned is useless and unproductive. I feel that unconsciously we all have the gift of understanding what future hold for us, and Tarot cards like dreaming is just a medium that can be used to connect us to that all knowing god within us. As far as reading Tarot is concerned, we should trust our feelings and not our logic. As it is true with dreaming, Tarot is made of encrypted symbolic features that have different meaning for different individuals. However, encoding these emblematic languages and making the connection between Tarot and our unconscious is not as easy as it might sound. The effort has to be made to relate to a particular symbol in a card and understand what that pictogram means for us. By understanding I do not mean to think about it or trying to memorize some meaning from a Tarot book, but we should let our feelings do the interpretation for us. Instead of getting an outside help to create a meaning in the cards, we should let Tarot cards flow freely through us. Instead of talking to the cards we should try to listen to it. Instead of forcing the Tarot cards to be shaped according to our faulty perception, we should let the cards to form us by its own free will. Our perception has been forced on us by our society and the culture that we have been raised into, and this is this defective discernment that form a barrier within what we think we are and our true self. Let the Tarot cards demolishes this flawed and destructive blockade and conduit us to what we meant to be. Let us be free!

Umbrae	04 Jul 2002
You just threw away the little white book. Congratulations my friend.

Fox	04 Jul 2002
That's it, you've got it - now it's just a matter of putting it into practice without letting your doubts obstruct the flow. But after your revelation, maybe you won't have to worry about that. My readings have always been accurate when done the way you described.

Diana	04 Jul 2002
edited

Marion	04 Jul 2002
Hello Mehrdad, It has taken me a long time to even begin to aproach where you are in your thinking about reading the tarot. But I also agree with some of the other posters, at least for me, learning the cards first was essential. Now that I mostly have them in my head, I find I can just flow with the cards much more easily. I loved the way you expressed your experience, it was a gift to you. And you offered it to us, and I thank you.

truthsayer	06 Jul 2002
mehrdad, i have long been impressed w/ your ability to work out issues through your dreams. the fact you remember the dream in such detail is also interesting. do you keep a dream journal? you seem to be a person who is very much in touch w/ the symbols and functioning of his unconscious mind. i hope you keep a record of these amazing experiences you keep having. please continue to share them w/ us. :)

mehrdad	06 Jul 2002
Hi Truthsayer Thank you for introducing me to Dr. Jung’s ideas and books about dream and dreaming when about a year ago I shared my dream concerning 9/11 in this site, it really helped me to make sense about a lot of my dreams. Of course almost all of the things in that dream came true one by one as it was foretold prophetically. It is correct that the portraits of anima and animus in our psyche shape most of our dreams, but there are so many other dreams that do not (at least as far as my own experiences are concerned.) I have had dreams that have come true, as I have seen them, word-by-word and scene-by-scene, but it is very difficult to distinguish which dream is psychological and which one is just the prediction of actual events in a later time. I had dreams that foretold the uprising in Iran and it happened, and I had dreams about the places and countries where I visited later in my life. Before coming to West I had never seen a subway train but when I was a child I always had this dream that I am in a strange underground train that everyday moves me around and this is what actually happened when I had to go to work everyday in the USA by subway train. I even once dreamed that president Bush was coughing peanuts and next day as I was wondering how could I fit this dream in terms of animus and anima I heard that Bush had some accident with pretzels. Before finding my last job as an engineer, I dreamed my cubical, the whole manufacturing location, and even the length of time that I would work there, which came true exactly. There are many more examples but I think I have said enough to make my point. It is obvious to me that dreams have a lot of powers and since reading Jung’s ideas; I have been thinking how I can control the events by my dreams. For example, I love to make a lot of changes in Iran. I wish I could destroy the virus of Mullahs in Persia by destroying all of them in my dream. Sometimes while dreaming I know that I am dreaming and have tried to control it, but either I suddenly woke up or I could not shape the scenery around me according to what I like. I have tried in my dream to go and kill Khamenei, the so-called spiritual leader (LOL) of Iranian mullahs, but I never see him in my dreams. My thinking is that there has to be something positive that people, who are aware of their unexplained powers, can do to make this world a better place to live. There are many spiritual and psychicly able individuals in this site and I am wondering how all of these pious powers can be used to shape or predict the coming events in the word. Why Tarot cards cannot be used, for example, to tell us where Osama Bin Laden is or whether he is alive or dead? Can Tarot be used to tell us what is going to happen in Iran or USA during the next year? Can we all concentrate our energy (I mean spiritually) together and do something that affects the life of a lot of people? Of course I write to my senator almost every month and have made him mad talking so much about Iran and how he has to push Iranian government for improving the sorry human right situation there, but I only see that my own situation in here is getting worse day by day. It seems to me that you do not get something for nothing and a price has to be paid. For example, in order for Afghanistan to be turned around and those people get rid of that terrible Taliban regime, many thousands of people had to die in the US. In Afghanistan women were treated worse than animals but US and the free world looked the other way and absolutely did nothing until something horrible happened here. Do we have to pay another high price before things change for better in Persia? Islamic Terrorism is the invention of the Iranian Mullahs (look at Israel, Lebanon, Iran, and…). Khominei and his clones were, are the "antichrist" and the clock is ticking toward the ultimate explosion, but meantime what is our responsibility? I think people who have the gift (dream, tarot, and…) have these gifts for a reason. They are not given these powers to be used to collect tarot cards, to see if they should love this or that person, or get this or that job. I think we (individuals who have spiritual offerings or awareness) are the consciousness of this world. We have these powers so we can collectively fight against “Evil”. We cannot effort to look the other way and think that other people’s political problems is theirs and has nothing to do with us (as we saw on 9/11 this line of thinking is faulty). Call me crazy, idealistic, naïve, and odd character with an odder personality, but you cannot change my opinion that the mind energy can be used to do wonders to change this world for better. I also like to show my appreciation to Marion, Fox, Diana, and Umbrae for taking time and responding to my post. Thank you!

Umbrae	06 Jul 2002
Suppose our role, is not to change the world in a big way, but to affect change in our little communities, providing guidance to one person at a time. Of course the Internet allow us to touch and spread light and truth to many more people than before. Call you naïve? Never. You, like many others of us, are simply pushing back the darkness, a little at a time. Salaam Siddiq (Sorry, I know no Farsi)

Jennifer	06 Jul 2002
Mehrdad, You are absolutely right! We, the collective mind, can make major changes in the world. In fact, all of the negative things going on have come about through the "negative collective mind" or the fear-based minds of many. All humans have the ability to manifest and create change with the power of their thoughts and ideas. If those ideas happen to be spiritually based or love-based, they will create positive change. In dealing with World issues it is important to try and see through the maya or illusion of people's violence and anger. No Human is born angry. Anger and violence are manifestations of something that resides much deeper in a person. Usually these symptoms (anger & violence) are the result of being hurt, feeling unloved and feeling terribly scared on a level that most of us have probably never experienced. The way humans fearfully protect themselves from never experiencing these feelings again is to become violent, raging and angry. Because who wants to “mess with” or confront someone who is so randomly mean? This becomes their form of self-protection. Our individual thoughts not only influence our lives but everyone else’s as well. Our subconscious minds are all connected. Instead of wishing for the death of another human, why not wish for them to "see the light" and change their ways. I realize with many of the political leaders this idea seems unreal, but you never know. Also, consider what type of energy you are attracting for yourself and your life when you wish for the death of another human. There are large groups of people that do worldwide meditations/prayers all from their homes. In fact, a great site you may like is: www.worldpuja.com They schedule "global prayers for planetary healing" at specific dates and times and they also have web casts. You could schedule one with the members of this site! Each person could pick a healing tarot card or everyone could use the same card and either contemplate, meditate or pray with this card all at the same time.

mehrdad	06 Jul 2002
Umbrae Everything starts from small before it is extended to a bigger result. I like your fish comment very much. With your permission I am going to use it to make a point in a political site about Iran where I usually write to attack mullahs and their policies.

mehrdad	06 Jul 2002
Jennifer In the wonderful book of “The Crowley Tarot” by Akron - Banzhaf, there is a superb code about the nature of Evil and goes like this: “The best analogy with which one could describe the desolating effect of a demon is the effect of the rabies virus. If such a virus gets into a nerve of a person bitten by a rabid animal, it is known that the virus wanders to exactly that place in the brain of the person bitten from which it can rule the entire person. It causes him to refuse water so that the virus cannot be washed out of the mouth, to wander around so that he can come into contact with the greatest number of other beings, and finally to have a biting frenzy so that the virus can be transplanted to a new carrier. If one considers how such a virus could have subjugated a significant person such as Kant or Goethe to the point that they could only have mechanically done what served the reproduction of the virus…! Autonomous complexes behave in exactly the same manner; they can distort or destroy the entire personality.” I believe that sickness of Evil do really exists and it cannot simply explained away with the anger issue (although it is true in many other cases). I am a US citizen and have been for many years (I have been in this country since my teen years), I love democracy and love USA for its system and its people. However, since 9/11 I have been treated with suspicion and sometimes quite very badly. I lost my job probably as the result of 9/11 even though I had nothing to do with it. I was refused a teaching job even though I did passed all the required tests and background checks. Just two days ago, when I went to airport to send my mother home, I was double and tripled checked over and over again. And while others were watching, my mother who was on wheel chair was removed from the chair and was checked again (only she was checked) just before boarding the plane (just because she is middle Eastern). Of course I am hurt by this treatment from a country, which I love very much, but I am not angry and I do understand that for security reasons these actions might be necessary. So the issue of anger to the point of killing innocent others goes beyond the simple analogy of psychological hurt-ness. With the above analogy of rabies and virus, I do not think the problem of this virus can be resolved by whishing them to see the light. It is possible to cure those who have rabies virus but the virus has to be killed for the curing process to begin. Mullahs and their fanatic ideas, that God only speak to them, are the virus, and those who are blindly follow them are the one who have been contaminated with this virus. Thank you for introducing me to the www.worldpuja.com. Before I respond to you I went there and looked around. I have placed it in the “Favorites” of my browser and I would surely get involve. However, I do not believe in praying and I think religion is the root cause of all the problems that human race have been suffering from since the beginning of history. .

MeeWah	06 Jul 2002
Mehrdad: As always, your thoughts are eloquently expressed & invite thoughtfulness (& thank you for the kind words, too)! You are blessed with the gift of prophecy through your dreams. & to be forewarned is to be forearmed. Their prophetic quality offer you a unique means of guidance, wisdom & protection. They help to prepare you personally for changes in your life as well as possibly extending beyond the parameters of your individual life. You are correct in stating that such talents that are available outside the realm of the usual senses are not meant to be used towards promoting materiality/selfishness, but towards spirituality/service to others; ultimately to help raise the collective consciousness of mankind. There is a saying that charity begins at home; another that tells us we are our brother's keeper. As Umbrae inferred, the opportunity exists to implement such service to others within our individual sphere of influence. The responsibility falls on each of us to make a contribution from a basic level, that of within the context of all whom we come in contact with. Thus, in our individual ways, each of us can plant a seed of love & light; nurture it to grow beyond its boundaries; & encourage others to do the same. Jennifer makes significant points about our group consciousness & how it affects others & the world we live in. We *are* all linked on a soul level. Collectively, we are a group consciousness, a god-like consciousness in that there is power that may be commanded within a group. We can use that inherent power to promote the well-being of not just one or a few, but direct it towards all creatures of our realm & to nurture our planet. It explains, in part, how one can perceive & discern, even intercede on the behalf of another; feel kinship with a stranger or that kinship with the land; the forest; etc. Within our molecular structure, we echo the life pattern of all life forms in this plane. 'Tis only by seeking non-violent, benvolent means that global peace may be promoted for the ultimate lesson here is that of love. Beginning from our own homes, we precipitate a ripple effect in our environs. Violence only begets more violence, as history & recent events show. The "natural" catastrophes that befall communities all over the world are but symptoms of a greater malaise--that of the negative forces perpetrated by not just a few, but that we all inadvertently contribute to. The very planet protests the iniquities; seeks to restore a natural balance. 15-Temperance, 17-The Star & 21-Universe come to mind for a possible collective focus to represent healing & hope in the world--though single cards may be less cumbersome to work with.

Fox	06 Jul 2002
You're a very inspirational person, Mehrdad. You have the gift of being able to do great things and you aren't afraid to put yourself out there. You've really put me to shame; there's so much more that I could be doing. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to understand.

Lightlike	10 Jul 2002
Mehrdad Thank you for sharing all that you have. You seem very insightful. I however would like to share my opinion about so called evil people like bin Laden and the mullahs. My feeling is (and I am sure there are those that will disagree with me) that even evil people do not have entirely evil souls. To me, the world is like an elaborate chess game and in any chess game there has to a white player and a black player. Stereotypically, white would be the "good" player and black the "evil" player, however the white player needs to be challenged by black players in order to grow and learn. Likewise, the black player learns by playing. To take a neutral and natural example: let's say that an earthquake is the bad guy and he destroys a lot lives and buildings but he also brings people together and forces them to rebuild. After a natural disaster (or almost any type of disaster) a community/nation/people come together in a loving and caring way and rebuilds what they have lost into something greater than before. Therefore, even though there weree great losses there were great lessons/gifts as well. My view is somewhat idealistic because I realize there are those that are evil just for their own personal gain but then I think there are some souls that *choose* to take "bad" roles in order to teach others lessons--even if the lessons are painful and harsh. But that's just how I keep my sanity when it comes to such horrible events.

Fox	12 Jul 2002
I love your interpretation, Lightlike. I agree with you in believing that even evil people don't have entirely evil souls; I'd hate to think that wasn't true. I've disliked some people for their cruelty and lack of compassion, but even they have people who love them and they love in turn, so they can't be all bad. I have however been horrified by some of the things people have done, and have had to wonder if these people have any sense or care of what's right or wrong, or any capacity to love. But you never know what cruelty's been inflicted on them early on in their own lives; I'm not saying it's an excuse, but everyone makes bad decisions sometimes. And pride, pride blinds people a lot of the time. Binladen is a proud man. Maybe he believes (or believed; is he dead?) that he's fighting for a just cause. And maybe he is, only in the wrong way. I personally think he's a stubborn, pig-headed idiot. Anyone who would willingly kill so many people is really f*cked up. (But let's not forget that there are many equally terrible and worse things that have happened or are happening - just because this is closer to home doesn't make it top of the list).

hyperborea	12 Jul 2002
It was great pleasure to read this thread and all the answers to it. It is nice to read there are so many nice souls around- who think the same. Last weekend the Dalai Lama visited us (what an honour) and he said that first we can change ourselves, then we can help our family, then we go to neighbours, and so on and on... He is truly a magnificant being. I would like to draw your attention to one additional site. All of you who seek light that you are, and are aware of fear ruling us too many times, her is a site of messages from Emmanuel, a being of Light, who choses to conect with us to help us be what we were born to be: http://www.emmanuelandfriends.com/frames.html enjoy it. greetings hyperborea

Marion	12 Jul 2002
Thank you for sharing that link hyperborea.

mehrdad	12 Jul 2002
Dear MeeWah, Sorry for delaying to respond. During the last few days I have been very ill and extreme pain would not allowed me to type. Even now, while writing this, I feel somewhat delirious and hallucinogenic. Thank you for your profoundly enlightening reply, and I agree with most of your positions and your point of view. However, your point about ‘benevolence means’ to respond to “Evil” is what separate us about the philosophy of “good” and “bad”. There are times that meekness retort could work to repel evilness and Gandhi, Dr. King, Mandela, and few others are very good examples. But even these great individuals could not be able to do what they did without some elements of force. In the case of Gandhi, he followed his passive residence for years without any result until the World War II and the awareness of the world community, including the British’s, about the evilness of occupation, weakened the British Empire to the point of submission. Even then, they divided the united India to its Hindu and Moslem faction so in a way the evil of war and killing still survived and continues to flourish. In South Africa, the Evil apartheid survived for centuries, until the changing world, a well-organized armed resistance, and the force of sanction changed the equation against the white rulers. In the United States, centuries of struggle, a horrific civil war, civil disobedience, and a combatant Malcolm X was need so eventually Dr. King could bring about the changes that we see today. In East Timor, Kosova, some other Serbian providences, the passive resistance almost wiped out the whole population until the world army forced the Evil to accept the defeat. In Tibet, the Dalai Lama can go on for centuries preaching passive resistance, but change in Tibet would never come unless it is backed with some element of battle confrontation. It is easy for us, living in our peaceful and relatively democratic sanctuary, to advocate passive resistance to those who are living under constant oppression, stoning, whipping, mass killing, torture, poverty, daily injustice, public hanging, and on and on; However, in the real world and as history has shown us again and again, Evil needs to be forced out not naively romance with. It is our responsibility as conscious human being to help those struggling for their freedom by all means possible, not pacifying them by philosophical nihilism to accept tyranny with smile. The whole process of spiritual development (Tarot way) involves a bringing into balance of the component parts of the personality (and a society). These elements consist of Fire, Water, Air and Earth. You cannot just be water (passive, docile) or just Fire (combatant, aggression), Air or Earth and talk about equilibrium. All these elements need to be used in proportion in order to bring about the salvation. I think a good Trumps card that comes into my mind at the present moment is “Temperance” (Art in Crowley card) XIV. This is the card that teaches us that experience of being is through an exchange and balance of opposites. Through a process that Fire becomes Water and Water becomes Fire (Crowley Cards, Art, shows these interchange beautifully by symbolic forms). The interchange of Fire and Water is the merging or tempering of energy opposites within the body (a society of people). As I showed in the historical examples, the freedom or what you called the “global peace” come about by the means of both, stick and carrot, otherwise we are doomed to extinction. .

MeeWah	12 Jul 2002
Mehrdad: I thought you have been unwell & I am sorry, but I appreciate you investing the time & energy in a thoughtful response. You are correct that those of us who do not live under oppression may too easily & even naively advocate passive resistance; possibly under a misguided notion that being "nice" will defuse a destructive philosophy or actions. I understand that is a wee too simplistic for a complex situation. Generally, the majority of us have no real concept of a totalitarian society. I have but a meager acquaintance with it through my parents, who emigrated at separate times from China just before the Communists took over because my father was aware & foresaw dark days for his country. He understood that the United States & its democracy could offer what he sought in life for himself & his future family. They maintained a tenuous connection with their birth country via contact with relatives & friends so we had some knowledge of what was transpiring--but I digress. I apologize because my previous comments were incomplete. I do not think of peaceful endeavors towards world peace as being so passive. It involves actively seeking to school the self to raising one's consciousness; to seek & to obtain a balanced knowledge of self & of the exterior world. In so doing, that greater understanding is accessed & the common thread that binds us all as brothers. In this physical realm, under our skin we express that connection that we *are* the same. Our hearts & minds aspire to life & the pursuit of fulfillment. We cast the same shadows. We all bleed red. When the individual seeker casts a stone, a message as it were, into that great pool of group consciousness, that act creates a ripple effect that may touch the individual consciousnesses of others. The receptiveness may vary according to each individual, but therein are the beginnings of small steps towards raising mankind out of the earthly confines & restrictive thought patterns. As the thought patterns free themselves, so does the behavior patterns also change--& so on. It follows that one cannot merely stand by as a spectator & not seek to also raise a voice or to lift a hand to express dissent with what is abhorrent or solidarity with another man. As we are charged as our brothers' keepers & the caretakers of our planet, we are bound to effect as you state, balance. Or that principle(s) represented by Temperance (which I cited as the first card or lesson of focus in a previous post). Your reference to a "stick and carrot" fits in with the rest of my view. As the former U.S. President Teddy Roosevelt advocated, we as a nation should "Walk softly and carry a big stick"! Whilst I do abhor violence & war, I understand that there are responsibilities inherent with the goals desired of freedom for all & global peace (see previous post & second card of The Star). There are times when one must put one's money where one's mouth is. Despite my apparent "passive" stance, I do see that such balance as we would seek to effect based on our understanding involves a more active & aggressive participation in worldly affairs. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty--I am willing to fight alongside those of like minds. If it means bearing arms to preserve our way of life & the world at large, then so be it (The World is the last card cited in previous post).

The Dreaming Tarot and Formless form thread was originally posted on 04 Jul 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.