What is fortune telling?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 03 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Umbrae	03 Jul 2002
As I was leaving the Video Rental store today, I suddenly thought, “Fortune telling? What is fortune telling?” A bit ago, there was a thread on ethics, an this link was posted: http://www.ata-tarot.com/code.html I read it, and all of the sudden weeks later I am thinking about point six, which reads: Tarot cards are not fortune telling cards nor are they used for fortune telling. Webster’s lists fortune telling as : To predict the future. In spreads, there are places for future events (or actions, or potential). Tarot is used for divination, is it not? Divination means: Prediction, Forecast, Foretelling, and Insight. So what do you folks think?

zorya	03 Jul 2002
the future hasn't been written yet. but i can tell you what is likely to happen if events continue as they are. i don't know if i can explain this well, but i see us and everything around us, as microcosms of a macrocosm. there are patterns and synchronicities everywhere, for us to tap into. the tarot, and it's universal images, help us tap into these patterns. so we can see where the pattern (of events) is most likely heading. change the events, change the pattern, or maybe not.

Dark Inquisitor	03 Jul 2002
To me, Point 6 is an obvious legal disclaimer. Fortune telling is negative term associated with fakery and showmanship. Carnivals, gypsies, etc. Keep moving down that thread and you will find peasant women of the long past using divination and probably upsetting everybody in the village. Exposing the truth, threatening the power structure, and encouraging change. And when an average woman can do that, she's got to be stopped !!! But we can't really get the toasty stake out today, so we just make fun of her to invalidate & trivialize the whole thing. Everyone is more comfortable that way. Tarotphelia

zorya	03 Jul 2002
maybe it's the word "fortune" in fortune telling that creates discomfort. websters definition of fortune includes; the entity or power believed by some to bring good or bad luck to people; luck; chance; fate;. there is also the definition meaning; money; wealth; possessions.

Thirteen	03 Jul 2002
We may be splitting hairs here. On the one hand, yes, we are "fortune telling" in that the cards are divining the future. On the other hand, no we're not, in that the cards are only helping us to "deduce" probable futures given present circumstances. It all depends on how you want to define "fortune telling." The image one gets of fortune tellers is the faux gypsy woman at a carnival saying to some girl, "In two weeks you will meet a dark, handsome man, a famous writer, and fall hopelessly in love with him! He will find you irresistable. You will have a wirlwind romance for three months, but then, on August 17th, while crossing the street, he will be hit by an ice cream truck! He will die in your arms, whispering your name!" And if we're watching the right movie (or reading the right book) it all comes true just as Madame Gypsy said it would--even though the young girl will pull at the man's arm as he heads out the door on August 17th, "No don't go out! Don't leave the house!"--and he, clucking her under the chin, "Silly goose, I'm just going to get some ice cream...." Because the fortune read in the cards cannot be changed! :p I think we can all agree that we don't get readings like this--nor do we give readings like this. Most readings focus on the past or present. Futures that we see develop out of these past/present situations. A common reading for one of us would be say, "Two of swords" in the "past position" --and we'd say to our querent, "You've been maintaining an uneasy compromise of late--" and we'd see "Seven of swords" in the "present position" and tell them, "tip-toeing around, watching what you say. But you've been feeling robbed, taken advantage of." Assume that the querent affirms that, yes, this is the situation, to the letter. Now we turn over the "future" card. It's the "Three of swords." We "predict" that "Given all this, you're about to lose your temper and say something really hurtful. Your friends will yell back at you, and everyone's going to end up with bleeding, emotional wounds." Is this a "prediction" of the future, or an astute observation of human behavior? Put it another way, have the cards just affirmed what we would have deduced anyway? We all, after all, "Predict" what's going to happen in our lives and act on those predictions (which, if we've been wise, often come true). We go on vacation to a certain place (and not another) because we "predict" that we'll have a lovely time in that place. We say "yes" to a marriage proposal because we predict that we can't live--or at least be as happy in our lives--without this person. We make, if you will, a reasoned deduction on what we know--and if we've unearthed all the pieces, our "prediction" is likely correct. The "supernatural" element in the tarot is not fortune telling, so much as unearthing those pieces. Knowing what the querent does not know or does not see. Pointing out to them elements of a problem, situation, of themselves of others that they are missing. Once they see this--and you the reader see this, what is likely to happen in the future--if things stay the way they are--is 75% evident. It is also alterable. Take the querent who got the "Three of swords"--you turn over a "solution" card--it's the "Four of Swords"--now you can tell them, "Hey, the best way to avoid this blow up and the hurt feelings is to get some distance from the situation before it happens, some time away to think about it and how to handle it." If they follow the advise, then the future has been changed. Of course, it's that remaining 25% that isn't evident which constitutes the *real* fortune telling--predicting hurricanes or chance meetings with handsome writers, trains derailing, parachutes not opening, ice cream trucks run amok, or an e-mail from an old flame you haven't heard from in 10 years arriving out of the blue, declaring that they've always loved you. Can the tarot predict these? Sometimes. Does this make it a fortune telling device? What's your definition of fortune telling?

tigerlily	04 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae As I was leaving the Video Rental store today, I suddenly thought, “Fortune telling? What is fortune telling?” Tsk - that's an easy one! Predicting the lottery numbers, of course! Fortune telling, as in "fortune" telling - get it? I do it all the time, and so far, all the numbers are correct - I only have to work on the right *week* a bit... Seriously, precognition is a fact; I had precognitive dreams that came exactly true (no big things, but significant enough to notice them). While Thirteen is correct in that most of the time, "predictions" are no more (or less) than educated guesses, true precognition of future events seems to be a natural ability of the human mind. Carl Jung suggested that the unconscious exists outside of linear time and can "remember" future events as easily as the past. It just doesn't fit in our current worldview with the emphasis on free will (but it's not excluding free will; as Rachel Pollack so aptly remarked, people do have a free will, they only use it rarely). So, yes, fortune telling in the sense of predicting the future is possible. But Tarot cards are not a fortune telling device in itself; if they are used that way, it's as a focus point for the reader's mind to take off. Like with scrying; the "classical" meanings of the cards lose importance and the cards become visual doorways for the visions of the reader. The power doesn't reside in the cards, but in the psychic talent of the reader. And it's a whole different way of using the cards than what is taught in books. I think this method can't be taught by books.

MystiqueMoonlight	04 Jul 2002
We could debate the ethics of the use of the phrase "fortune telling" until the cows come home and still be at odds with each other :) Again Hollywood, Fairy Tales and some religious factions have IMO influenced our personal understanding of these 2 simple words. Your point Umbrae is rather pertinent I feel. Yes indeed we can and sometimes do use the cards for fortune telling after all is that not what forseeing the outcome of any situation is? Whether we use Tarot, Runes, a crystal ball or even a naked flame on a candle. We shy away from such words as fortune telling, witch, magick, spells simply because of the current perception of the inexperienced, untrained or unkowing general public. I avoid using this term only because of that. :) :) :) :)

lili	04 Jul 2002
to me fortune telling is someone that just learn the cards from a book without getting in touch with the cards and what they really are, fortune teller do not use tarot as an spiritual path. that is my personal opinion. thanks Umbrae for starting this F.T. subject.

lunalafey	04 Jul 2002
thought this story would go good here Evangeline Adams(note: Eve & Adam) was an astrologer in the early 1900's. She had a radio show and was in big demand for readings. In 1914 she got called on a law regarding fraud by fortune telling. She took the case to court rather than pay a fine and stop what she was doing. The prosicution asked her to read an unknown chart. She gave a detailed personality description and also stated this person would have an early death by water. The chart was the judge's son's and he had reciently died in a swimming accident, CASE DISMISSED....

Major Tom	05 Jul 2002
My ancient dictionary defines fortuneteller as one who professes to foretell events in other people's lives. Seems to me to be exactly what we're doing when we're reading tarot for someone. }) I think Tarotphelia got it right by saying this is an obvious legal disclaimer made by the American Tarot Association. Isn't 'fortunetelling' still illegal in some states?

lunalafey	05 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom I think Tarotphelia got it right by saying this is an obvious legal disclaimer made by the American Tarot Association. Isn't 'fortunetelling' still illegal in some states? Here in California there are quite a few psychics, and they all seem to find that residental/commercial house right on a busy corner and set up shop(and home). As far as being illegal elsewhere, well as in my previous post it was the fraud by way of fortune telling, one like lili described. It would be interesting to see how the laws really read.

MeeWah	05 Jul 2002
My thanks to Umbrae for starting this thoughtful thread. All the replies offer food for thought! Mystique expresses the controversy well. Many of us cringe at the phrase "fortune telling" because of the stereotypical associations that have given the general subject of divination a dubious reputation. Tarotphelia's point is valid regarding the legal aspect. It is designed to protect the innocent & unwary against harm that could result. This also touches on the subject of ethics. Locally there is an old law that forbids fortune-telling, but it appears to be seldom used except where there are complaints. One such incident actually occurred in a neighboring city & made the local news for a while. The charges stemmed from the very large sums of money that were exchanged between the client & the psychic--the latter a woman who made her living as such. There is also an old law that bans bathing suit attire on one side of a certain street near the beach! It infers that if one avoids an appearance on *that side* of the street, one is relatively safe from legal action. Whoopee. This city is, among other things, a resort community & such attire is common in certain parts of town by both local residents & visitors alike (weather permitting, of course). I suspect it was due to a particular attitude but it is so frivolous & inane that one wonders about the intellect on the part of all concerned that permitted its inclusion!! Based on personal experiences & understanding, I tend to think that what we do does constitute fortune telling (intuitive counselling). I also agree with Tigerlily, Diane; also in part with Thirteen. Whatever the method used, it is merely the tool or a means by which a particular focus is achieved towards an end--that of *obtaining information that may not be otherwise available*. Aside from any natural proclivity towards this sixth sense, there are indications that this quality can be developed *to some extent*. Everyone has some natural ability in this direction but some are unaware or choose to be so. Folks may freely refer to their "gut feeling" or other feelings that lead them to act but they would not be open to the idea of being even remotely "psychic" or sensitive. There is also something to be said for the conclusions drawn from astute observations; as well as from an understanding of sequential phenomena; cause & effect. In all fairness, I have to state that I have met at least one individual who called himself a "fortune teller" (who represented my first such experience) but astounded me in the years ahead. At that time, I was doing readings with regular playing cards but was unable to read for myself so a friend took me to see him. The establishment was The Gypsy Tea Room, across the street from the 42nd Street main public library in New York City. Aside from him tellling me where I had "beauty marks" (which led me to think I made a mistake), he accurately "predicted" things that developed over the years.

truthsayer	06 Jul 2002
to get slightly off topic...the way i understand laws against fortune telling is if you have a certificate that legally declares you a minister or spiritual counselor or what ever title you choose then you can do "spiritual counseling". you can get this certificate free from the universal life church via the internet. http://www.ulc.org/ulchq/ i'm actually the Reverand Truthsayer, spiritual counselor--not a fortune teller, btw. ;) the church is nondenomination and you can be whatever religion you choose. they even have what they call the "ministry in a box". in it's everything you need to do anything from funerals to weddings. i haven't bought it yet but it would make an interesting new career for me! :D there's no way we can change the ppl who see us as fortune tellers. they're usually pretty set in their ways. but we can find ways (as above) that we can get around them and go about our business. i really don't see myself as a fortune teller. i think of palmistry when i thing of FT. divining seems to be like the oracle at delphi. i look at artistic cards that serves to free me from the restraints of my conscious mind . i'm able to give you counseling/advice about areas of your life. i don't try to predict anything unless it just happens to come up. but this is how i define myself. others see me differently and that's out of my control. everyone sees him or herself differently.

The What is fortune telling? thread was originally posted on 03 Jul 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.