A conflict of faith

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Alissa	13 Aug 2002
Namaste! For the past five years my Tarot study has been mostly self-guided using personal visualization suggested from the cards I use (a Universal Waite deck), and most often in a Celtic cross spread, and various fanciful additional spreads I "made up" for other approaches. I read for myself, I read for friends. I read only on occassion, and never as a professional. I peeked in the little book that came with my deck for assistance along the way and felt quite happy with what I received during this time. My use was casual, for certain. However, I always yielded a tremendous amount of knowledge for myself or others, and was satisfied. Along the way, I came up with several unique interpretations to key elements of Tarot readings that my current, more in-depth study has revealed as incorrect. These were likely gleaned from a smattering of reading over the years, and scattered approaches to learning. Now I'm troubled. Do I use my traditional beliefs, that are familiar, or the more "correct" views? Examples: I associate Wands with Air, and the mental element ...? I associate Swords with Fire, and ego or self-related matters ...? In the Celtic spread, I read cards 7-10 as : 7 = What others think of the situation, or of you 8= What you think of the situation, or of yourself 9= What the Cards think of the situation 10= Final word on the matter This was specifically because I emphasized moving from the external (Others) to the internal (self, Cards) perception of the issue for the querent. Now I'm perplexed, do I conform? How terribly unlike me if I do! Of course, there are times when I do see correlations, or alternative meanings to these things, but sometimes my approach is exactly opposite conventional wisdom. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Umbrae	13 Aug 2002
Do not conform. Read the cards the way YOU read the cards. If I think of the suits one way and you another, who cares? If your interpretation of a card varies from mine, even radically, the Tarot Police shall not arrest you. What matters is that you and I accomplish the duties and responsibilities we accept by picking up a deck.

Minderwiz	13 Aug 2002
I agree go by what you feel not what others say or write. i believe some decks are geared to the Wands = Air, Swords = Fire approach. I think the Celtic Dragon and the Shapeshifter decks work this way but others may well post more on those. There is no right or wrong way to interpret the cards to misuse one of the slogans of the feformation - 'each man his own priest' The only thing I would suggest is to read more and practice more but always go with what feels right. Trying to second guess the cards from a book may lead you astray from what you instinctively feel. Minderwiz

HOLMES	13 Aug 2002
it is up to us tarot readers to grow beyond the assign meanings and come to know the tarot like a trusted guide who can help us help the clientbeyond the signposts of the tarot. there will come a time when we enter a forest and there is no signs and we see someting over there like a beutiful meadow so venture off to look and come back to the road but its changed direction and we go byour inuition which way do we head or the meadow took us to magic place where truths can be revealed that weren't on the orginal road. so stick to your meanings :O)

Jenny-Li	13 Aug 2002
I agree with the others, the magic isn't in the cards or in any "rules", the magic is in YOU. So you should go with what you have found to be right for you, more "correct" than that it can never be! To me it seems you answer your own question with just one word: Can you see the concept of "conformity" apply to the Tarot? I didn't think so...! Go your way girl, it's the only way you can't ever get lost! Light and love, Jenny :)

Lee	13 Aug 2002
I agree entirely with Umbrae (I'd better stop doing that, he'll get too accustomed to it) and everyone else. Everybody reads in their own way. Everyone "tweaks" the standard meanings a bit to suit themselves. There aren't any "standard" meanings anyway; the meanings in books vary widely from book to book. As far as suits go, while the swords=air and wands=fire correlation is dominant, there are many people who subscribe to the swords=fire, wands=air correlation as you do, so you are not at all alone. As Minderwiz says, there are several decks which have been designed with just such a correlation because their authors agree with you. If someone claims to have "the" correct meanings, run in the opposite direction. If you have meanings which work for you, then those are the ones you should be using. -- Lee

Laurel	13 Aug 2002
Everyone who's already posted is so right, in my mind. Do not conform. Run away from anyone who insists that they know the One True Way to interpret tarot. Trust yourself. You were doing the right thing all along. Laurel

VGimlet	13 Aug 2002
If it works for you, that's all that matters, IMO. Conventional wisdom has always seemed like kind of a box to me. All of the books and meanings are a starting point; and each author has their own slightly different take on things. It doesn't mean they are wrong, for them. I think each person has to find their own interpretations, and use their own intuition in the end, if they want to keep growing out of the box . Don't comform!

fairyhedgehog	13 Aug 2002
Quote: originally posted by Alissa Along the way, I came up with several unique interpretations to key elements of Tarot readings that my current, more in-depth study has revealed as incorrect. You have unique interpretations. You need to value them. Why should anyone else's interpretation of Tarot be better than yours? If you've read books that tell you how to do the Celtic Cross and you have a different way that works - maybe you need to write your own book to tell other people about it :D I'm amazed at how much agreement there is in here that what works for you is right. It is possibly the only thing we do all agree on :D Love and light to all, FH

Alissa	13 Aug 2002
It's very helpful to get objective advice on this, thank you all so much (on my first day here!) Any and all input is mightily welcomed. I know my instinct to follow my heart would've won out, but I also would've likely suffered an overactive Critic nagging me with doubt every step of the way about whether or not I was doing it "right" (perfectionist me). I'm finding a blending of styles and a richer textured meaning coming about now to my approach to my cards. It's exciting but scary too. Helpful because I find many more moments of a-ha! and an extra dimension to the patent explanation I've been using for a card or suit, or spread, for years. Truthfully, I'm a bit better at palm reading at times methinks.

Alissa	10 Apr 2003
Earlier this week, I was thinking about this thread for the first time in ages. I remember my hesitation at being so open and posting about my fears ... hell, at posting AT ALL! It was my first day as a member, although I'd been reading the site for about a week or so by the time I officially joined. What if I got flamed though? What if I sounded completely ridiculous?? Re-reading it now, I am amazed at my own words, and my view point of Tarot at that time (which seems light years past). Most of all I'm amazed at what others wrote to me. I can almost hear myself type those words to other new members, or maybe I already have (?), who might be doubting their own Tarot path, and turning to a community to discuss it. The content of what so many had to say was so inspirational. Even though I feel I'm far far beyond that initial crisis of Tarot faith, I re-read their words of advice and I'm still gaining. I bumped this thread because I wanted to share it with everyone, for grins, and especially for those who are new to the site and missed it. Gosh it feels good to realize you've grown. :D p.s The best advice turned out to be "read more," and to ignore the doubts (since the doubts likely would have paralyzed me into not reading at all for a goodly while).

ihcoyc	10 Apr 2003
Go your own way. Now, there is a reason behind tradition; that's why it's traditional. It should not be discarded lightly. On the other hand, it isn't even inevitable or necessary that any suit even have an element. If you assign them to elements at all, it's because tarot tradition has absorbed notions that started in hermeticism and alchemy, that don't necessarily belong. Tarot tradition itself has many springs and many branches: you have a Waite/Smith tradition, a Marseilles tradition, a Thoth tradition, etc. It is best that learners learn the common language before seeking an idiosyncratic version of it. It sounds like you are beyond that stage, and are ready to find your own voice. Go ahead. You can make Cups Fire if you want to.

firemaiden	10 Apr 2003
Edited to say: oops! I just realized this was a bump! oh well, this is what I would have said to the Alissa on that day, if I were answering today, which I did. (LOL) Don't worry, Alissa, the Swords / Wands attributes are historically very unstable. They fluctate from deck to deck, and even within decks (it is not clear to me in the Fey, whether fire or air). Although Crowley seems to have nailed down the Swords = air thing, for most who came after, the fact is that the distinction between air and fire is a bit fuzzy in and of itself. The elemental distinctions are bullocks anyway. The periodic table has been upgraded since Aristotle's time, just a tad. Furthermore, the associated concepts attributed to fire and air, are also quite unstable - one is spirit? one is mental activity? how does one really distinguish? It reminds me of our discussion a ways back - what is the difference between soul and spirit? exceedingly difficult to define. The model of three dimensions is easy to understand: and that marries well to three elemental states: earth = solids; water = liquids; air = gasses. What is left ? what is fire? fire is combustion, the process of changing from one state to another.... Anyhow, I suggest we re-invent the tarot with one suit of cards for every element in the periodic table.... I would like to design the cards for "Berkleynium", thank you.

ihcoyc	10 Apr 2003
Now that would be an interesting deck. . . though with 104 elements already, it would be a major hassle to shuffle. Besides, what are you going to do on those unfortunate days when the card of the day is Boron. Or Yttrium. Or Tungsten. Or Radon. You'd end up with a deck where the bad cards outnumbered the good ones about 5 to 1. I like it! Your soul card is: Dysprosium Your lucky gem is: Gneiss Your lucky number is: -2.04427291 Your lucky day is: the fifth Monday in February

full deck	26 Apr 2003
I agree with much of what everyone else has said. It is a pleasure to read so many interesting thoughts! I would only add that, as in performing Jazz on a high level, before one can truely do something unique, one must be familar with the tradition of what came before, even if one ends up sounding nothing like what came before. Only then can real understanding come. Do keep at it; it sounds like you are doing fine. P.S. I don't trust anyone that does not have some doubts; it means that they aren't really thinking.

Alex	05 May 2003
and had an X-ray and the doctor said to you "I have my own private system of interpreting X-rays. Do you see this white area here? Most of my colleagues call it a tumor, but I like to look interpret it as a deffect in the X ray machine. Always works for me and my clients, just go home and relax." and asked her to look at your throat, and had her looking at your feet, because she (the doctor) likes to interpret body parts in a very particular, personal way? There is a limit to personal interpretations. Of anything. Some people here claim to have a very peculiar, personal system of interpretation, but I often see them turning in regular LBW interpretations. Obviously, within the context of a throw, cards can assume different shades of meaning, but to that, too, there is a limit. Completely disregarding a system of interpretation is AS BAD AS following one point by point. One thing is to talk about it. Another, completely different, is to act accordingly. Just wait until I say to the first aeclectic who picks the sun as a daily card "hey, today the s@it will hit the fan, I'm sorry for ya". Alex.

Umbrae	05 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex … X-ray and the doctor said to you "I have my own private system of interpreting X-rays..." There is a limit to personal interpretations. Of anything. Some people here claim to have a very peculiar… cards can assume different shades of meaning, but to that, too, there is a limit. Completely disregarding a system of interpretation is AS BAD AS following one point by point… I disagree… For starters, we are not looking at X-Rays (photographs of a skeletal structure on a single plane), Computed Axial Tomography (skeletal structure on four planes), or Magnetic Resonance Imaging (soft tissue imaging on four planes). We are looking at Tarot cards. Historically, meanings are varied. Etteilla and Levi used very different systems. Waite tweaked his meanings to fit his world view, and Crowley tweaked with meanings even more. Quote: Originally posted by Alex There is a limit to personal interpretations. Such statements fly in the face of divination systems such as “Soul Cards”, and other open ended oracular systems. Tarot, by its nature, allows for flexibility of interpretation. …and all the decks would be the same. There would be only one book. And there would be no need for this forum. And, like the medical field, you can always seek – a second opinion. (and sometimes - the Sun means exactly that...)

Alex	06 May 2003
that my analogy was a bit o a push.... (sometimes it works to push some) "Flexibility" implies limits. There are limits, otherwise there would be no need for cards. There would be no reccognized system. There are four numbered suits and 22 MA cards. Each of these cards are associated with suit qualities and fit a numerological system. Each of these cards represents a certain universe of experience and_on itself_ just one universe of experience. Tarot, by its nature, allows for "flexibility" of interpretation. Not just pure "free association" …and all the decks would be completelly different There would be no one book. And there would be no need for this forum. And, unlike the medical field, there would be no thing like– a second opinion. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I disagree… For starters, we are not looking at X-Rays (photographs of a skeletal structure on a single plane), Computed Axial Tomography (skeletal structure on four planes), or Magnetic Resonance Imaging (soft tissue imaging on four planes). We are looking at Tarot cards. Historically, meanings are varied. Etteilla and Levi used very different systems. Waite tweaked his meanings to fit his world view, and Crowley tweaked with meanings even more. Such statements fly in the face of divination systems such as “Soul Cards”, and other open ended oracular systems. Tarot, by its nature, allows for flexibility of interpretation. …and all the decks would be the same. There would be only one book. And there would be no need for this forum. And, like the medical field, you can always seek – a second opinion. (and sometimes - the Sun means exactly that...)

Khatruman	06 May 2003
I look at the flexibility issue as I look at interpretation of poetry. What throws most students in regards to poetry is that they see it as a word puzzle that they have to find the answer to. I often begin by telling them there is no one right answer. Then, they will usually swing the other way and say, "Ohh, so it can mean anything." Which is just as wrong as saying that it has only one meaning. The truth is somewhere in the middle, in the dynamic between the text and the reader. Text is often used by literature folk to refer to more than just printed words, the "text" is the object being studied. In this case the text is the tarot, and more specifically the deck that was created. Certainly, the deck creator had some history and tradition to look at, his or her own personal understandings, and that wild creative spirit that comes in during the act of creation. However, a creator of something artistic doesn't dictate a precise meaning to the reader; otherwise, he would create simply a treatise, or would print cards that had words in plain text that told you exactly what it means. The very act of creating a picture, a poem, or such means that the artist has a message to send, and wants that message to connect with a reader. However, the reader's connections are an equally important part of that. I take the freedom in reading tarot cards as I take the freedom in reading poetry. You can certainly come up with something that varies from what I, or others, have seen, but you better have something in the text itself that backs up this revelation.

Umbrae	06 May 2003
Let me see if I understand (I think we are saying damn near the same thing – but in much different ways). Music, uses notes, arraigned in modalities, dependant upon your cultural experience. We have Major, Minor, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and of course, Locrian Modes. Music scales are based upon modalities. We can teach music and scales. However on the other hand there is a music form we refer to as ‘Outside Jazz’. Some folks call it freeform. Speaking of her father, the late Al Hood, "I think he very much thought music was something that happened in the moment. He felt performers should go with their instantaneous instincts. In his pieces, you might have a very short written-out section, or none at all" said his daughter Kiki Hood, a conductor and singer. It is music. It is good. Ask Dark Electric. However it does not fit neatly into a box. It follows no modality…well…sometimes… I liken reading Tarot to music, and art. You can only make art by setting it free. Anything else is just a memory, no matter how you store it, on film, paper, sculpt, or recorded. Everything that exists in a secure state, animate or inanimate wants to be free. Capturing an representation on paper or stone is not art (IMO). Putting a story or poem on paper robs it of freedom. It’s good – but not the same as a story told live, in the oral tradition. Music and dance come the closest to what real art is, as long as it is live. Musical notation is only dead ink on paper. Choreography is planning. Neither are art. But music can transform the grimmest environment into a place of magic. Music gives voice to the mysterious that the voice cannot encompass. Sometimes I use an interpretation that comes real close to some LWB. Sometimes I’m way outside – beyond any modality. Such readings cannot be taught – cannot be placed into a dead bookish mode. It can only occur by experience – by risking all and being wrong – learning from your mistakes and your successes. Are swords Air or Fire? Yes they are…

Alex	06 May 2003
being Ignorant in music as one can be, I was horrified when my boyfriend told me that he teaches "improvisation", the first time we went out together. "WHAT????" I asked "TEAHCING improvisation??????????? HOW COME?????????" It happens that some people can improvise and it "sounds like" music. Other people can improvise too, myself included, but it does NOT "sound like" music. It sounds like disconnected noise. Whether we intuitively perceive certain rules within musical structure, or whether we learn these rules from a book or a teacher...such "structure" still exists. And I am not saying that it is not flexible... but everyone can reccognize when their ears hurt... and that happens when some boundaries are crossed. I don't think we are in disagreement here, no no no. Neither am I denying that there is something as an "art" of reading the Tarot. Personally, I even think that it is more important that one can say something that helps and makes sense_ something that has some informational content - than say something that is correct but bears no information. Some readings I have received, and certainly some I have given, are but a collection of platitudes. Correct, but as any platitude, has no need to be spoken. Alex.

DarkElectric	07 May 2003
Music? People discussing music? Jazz? Freejazz/Improv?!!!!!!! TAROT!?!?!?!?! Naturally, this is going to attract me.... Alright, here's my take on it. It is very important to discover one's own way of relating~ whether that be to the art of music, or reading tarot cards. There is, of course, the argument that one needs to know what has gone before, in order to make a comparative analysis, whatever, but... One of the most inspiring musicians I have ever heard was a young Japanese boy who was in a punk rock band. They had come on their first American tour, and were on the same bill with my band. He was a sax player. He was, to put it bluntly, totally amazing. He played it the way I have never heard it played before, or since. He spoke some English, and I asked him how he did it. Here is what he told me: He was from a small village on the Northern Coast of Japan. There isn't a lot of citification in those regions, even now. Nobody in his village had ever played a saxophone. He had heard American Doo Wop music, and fell in love with the sax. He saved his money, and bought one over the internet. No teachers were available, sax or otherwise. He learned, through trial and error, how to put the reed on. He then would take himself, and his sax down to the seaside, sit on a big rock a little ways into the ocean, meditate, then blow. He would practice for hours at a time, every day. He developed a totally unique, extremely passionate, and inspiring sound, based on his inspiration from nature. He tried to emulate the cries of seabirds, and the sounds of foghorns across the water. His playing sounded like the ocean waves. It was the anthem of a strong young man, expressing his soul, his love, and reflecting beauty in the purest, most unadulterated form. I had never heard of anyone EVER doing this before. It is my opinion, that if he had prior knowledge of 'system' it would have polluted the purity of his extraordinary playing. It made me cry. I have his performance on videotape. I'll treasure it forever. I feel the same way about tarot. Other people's explanations are not a bad thing, but if someone is willing to boldly go where no one has gone before, well, this is where true innovation comes from, isn't it. And innovation leads to revolutionary discoveries. "Something new is good for you." One Geek's Opinion.

Shadow Wolf	01 Jun 2003
In my recent readings, I've been using more of my own intuition with great success. You have to trust what you feel in regard to the cards drawn. It's gotten to the point with me where I have to let the querent know "my take" on it. That's exactly how I put it too. It's right on target more often that not !!!! TRUST YOURSELF!!!!!

little	01 Jun 2003
I agree- go with your own response to the cards. I had a similar response when I learned the 'right' associations between the cards and the seasons. I had already associated cups with spring, wands with summer, coins with autumn, swords with winter. And darn it, that's the association I am staying with, because it feels right to me.

The A conflict of faith thread was originally posted on 13 Aug 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.