Dumb Question Time: What is Tarot?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

divinerguy	04 Aug 2002
Is it a religion? I don't think so, we don't pray to anyone. Is it science? Too hard to measure and theorize. Is it mediatation? Maybe. Is it self-hypnosis? You are getting very sleepy. Is it a belief system? Hmmm. Is it a method of self-examination? I suppose its possible. Is it a way of telling the future? I don't know. What is it?????????

Lee	04 Aug 2002
Well, I think it's an organizational system, kind of like a filing cabinet. It's a system which gives us a framework with which to organize our experiences and our thoughts. Mary Greer has written that whenever she reads a book, she finds herself automatically assigning a card to the passage she's reading, and I think that's a good example of what I'm talking about. -- Lee

Dark Inquisitor	04 Aug 2002
It may be a pathway between the seen & the unseen, the known & the unknown. It may be a system of stimulating & accessing the synchronistic universe & the archetypal unconscious. All disguised in a freaky little deck of cards. Tarotphelia

Starfish	04 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia It may be a pathway between the seen & the unseen, the known & the unknown. It may be a system of stimulating & accessing the synchronistic universe & the archetypal unconscious. All disguised in a freaky little deck of cards. Tarotphelia I'm liking your description, Tarotphelia! And agreeing with your take. :TSTRE Starfish

Minderwiz	04 Aug 2002
Good definition Tarotphelia. I've always thought of Tarot as a means of divination - but your definition is a more'spiritual' one. For me Tarot is a means of trying to identify the trends both spiritual, psycholgical, cosmic, personal and also material that together affect something that I'm (or some one else) is interested in. In this sense Tarot is a means of answering questions in order that we might decide what path to take (or allow others to make such decisions about their own paths). Minderwiz

Laurel	04 Aug 2002
What a not dumb "dumb question"! I like Tarotphelia's definition as well. Laurel

amyel	04 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Is it a method of self-examination? I suppose its possible. What is it????????? I use tarot more in thsi context then any other, and I have found it very effective for this purpose. When I do reading for others (very rarely now), it is more along these lines, too - as a method to help them sort out a problem with internal direction.

squigglywiggly	04 Aug 2002
Tarot is a card game. the aim of the game is for the card reader to convince the querent that "this Tarot stuff works". this card game has some rough rules. certain cards are supposed to mean certain vague things. cards are supposed to be laid out in configurations called "spreads" where each location is supposed to refer to some vague aspect of life. of course there is no rhyme or reason to "spreads" because people can make up there own spreads and they often do. so there is no right spread or wrong spread it is all quite silly. the reason Tarot readers hate "cold querents" is because they can't bullsh*t there way through the reading and say "insightful" things about someone they don't know. when your reading for someone that you know, you can bullsh*t more successfully by pretending to "divine" things that you already know about them. i have a lot of fun playing this game. i am pretty good at it. i convince a lot of people and i make new friends and also i like the art on the cards.

LeoLady	04 Aug 2002
Have deleted this post on recommendation..Sorry 4 inconvenience

Diana	04 Aug 2002
edited

wavebreaker	04 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Is it a method of self-examination? I suppose its possible. That's how I use it: as a way to get into contact with my inner guides.

jamesriouxctm	04 Aug 2002
Hello, Just thought I'd throw in some comments > Is it a religion? I don't think so, we don't pray to anyone. Indeed, but it can be used as a supplement to religion if one so desires, in the same way that prayer and magick can supplement one's religious beliefs. > Is it science? Too hard to measure and theorize. I heartily disagree. It is entirely possible to make hypotheses about the Tarot and then test them. Indeed, I do all kinds of Tarot-related research; one of my recent endeavours was to compare the accuracy of daily, weekly and monthly readings, and the results of that experiment were fairly clear. (I am planning a new set of trials to support my findings later this fall.) I think the problem here is an improper definition of science. Science does not have to involve equations and test tubes; all you need is a theory, a method for systematically testing that theory, and the willingness to reformulate or abandon the theory is testing proves it wrong. By this definition, the Tarot can easily be studied by scientific means. I'd also like to suggest that the Tarot could be classified as a language. The cards are like the letters of the alphabet; they each have a distinct shape and intrinsic meaning. (In this sense they are more like Hebrew letters, that each have a specific word or phrase associated with them that explains the shape of the letter, than the Roman alphabet we are used to.) Letters of an alphabet can be combined to form words, which have a different meaning than the sum of their components. The same is true of Tarot cards, and if the cards are letters, the Tarot itself must be a language. Or put another way, the Tarot is a way of conveying information through combinations of a finite number of basic symbols. Sounds like a language to me. Comments on this viewpoint are eagerly welcomed.

Strega	05 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jamesriouxctm Or put another way, the Tarot is a way of conveying information through combinations of a finite number of basic symbols. Sounds like a language to me. I like your explanation, jamesriouxctm. Interesting point... :)

Diana	05 Aug 2002
edited

WolfSpirit	05 Aug 2002
I use it as a means for self-examination, it helps me come up with solutions I did not think of on my own. And it's also a very cool addiction, it's just so much fun to look at all those beautiful decks ;)

catboxer	05 Aug 2002
"Tarot is a card game." --Squigglywiggly Yes it is. It was invented in northern Italy some time between 1420 and 1450 as a trick-taking game, sort of like bridge. Twenty-six cards were added to the already-existing 52-card playing card deck. Of these, 22 were obviously meant to convey a symbolic meaning of some kind, for reasons unknown. The game is still played, has been regaining popularity in Europe, and often travels under the name of "tarock." Some time after 1700 tarot acquired another function besides that of a gaming device and began to be used as an oracle. "certain cards are supposed to mean certain vague things." --Sw Hmmm...well, if you consider the meaning of the Pope (Hierophant) to be "the study or practice of formalized religion, or the study of religious texts and scriptures, or a person engaged in these practices, or an official religious authority or office holder," I hardly think the meaning is vague. Of course, different people will take differing meanings from the pictures, and will apply various interpretations. Different strokes for different folks. "this card game has some rough rules." --Sw Now you're talking about cartomancy, not the game. I don't do much cartomancy, as my main interest is in the history and development of the cards, but I sometimes read for people who are close to me, or for myself. The readings I do for friends and relatives are invariably clear, easy, and prescient. The ones I do for myself don't work very well, if at all. Don't ask me why. I don't really spend much time thinking about whether it "works," or if it does, why. "each location is supposed to refer to some vague aspect of life...it is all quite silly." --Sw Here again, if I tell somebody he's going to experience a great deal of financial instability in the immediate future, that's hardly a vague prediction. I did, and he did, by the way. "the reason Tarot readers hate "cold querents" is because they can't bullsh*t there way through the reading and say "insightful" things" --Sw That's one way of putting it. Another is to say that nobody is going to deliver an effective reading for someone who is sitting there with a supercilious, superior, smug expression on his face, waiting for an opportunity to discredit the process which he has initiated only for the purpose of deflating it. That's a no-win situation for the reader. I don't attempt to pet dogs who are known to bite, either. Do oracles work? Hell, I don't know. If they do work, how do they work? I don't know that either. C. Boxer

Minderwiz	05 Aug 2002
Do Oracles work? Well I suppose enough must work for their to be an enduring belief in them. Whether this is by coincidence, wish fulfillment or trying to avoid bad things happening I don't know. I suspect that it works for those who believe in it and not for sceptics who will never be convinced by any evidence. I think most of us use the Tarot because we get a personal reward out of it. This reward is most likely non material but for us it raises the quality of the life experience and may enable us to understand life better than if we didn't use it. Minderwiz

catlin	05 Aug 2002
It's a PASSION.

Lee	05 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by squigglywiggly it is all quite silly...the reason Tarot readers hate "cold querents" is because they can't bullsh*t there way through the reading and say "insightful" things about someone they don't know. when your reading for someone that you know, you can bullsh*t more successfully by pretending to "divine" things that you already know about them. ...i make new friends... I'm a little puzzled by that last statement, Squigglywiggly. Your continued insistence on stating your opinions in an insulting and condescending manner seems to be working at cross-purposes with your stated desire to make new friends. Also, by expressing yourself in such a defensive manner, it tends to make people doubt that you really believe the things you write. We all would honestly like to hear what you have to say, but you might find more people would agree with you, and you might even make some new friends, if you would cut out the defensive and condescending posturing. -- Lee

Kyrielle	05 Aug 2002
Tarot is Tarot is Tarot is Tarot is Tarot....etc... -- Kyrielle

wavebreaker	05 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by catlin It's a PASSION. I agree!! :)

squigglywiggly	05 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz Do Oracles work? Well I suppose enough must work for their to be an enduring belief in them. There is also an enduring belief in Santa Claus ..... mostly by stupid little kids. Of course, as we all know, Santa Claus does not exist. Enduring belief is not proof of legitimacy.

DarkElectric	05 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia It may be a pathway between the seen & the unseen, the known & the unknown. It may be a system of stimulating & accessing the synchronistic universe & the archetypal unconscious. All disguised in a freaky little deck of cards. Tarotphelia It sure seems to work this way for me. When I get all wrapped up in something to the point where I lose perspective, the correct information comes through to clarify what's happening, and I get back on track.This happens with other questions as well. From whence this information comes,well, I have my theories, but still I'm not sure. But it does come from somewhere that seems to know what I need here, and will provide me with clues. I find the gateway aspect of tarot fascinating, and quite accurate.

Diana	05 Aug 2002
edited

catboxer	05 Aug 2002
It may be off topic, but: From the Editorial Page of The New York Sun, written by Francis P. Church, September 21, 1897 "Dear Editor--I am 8 years old. "Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. "Papa says, 'If you see it in The Sun, it's so.' "Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus? Virginia O'Hanlon 115 West Ninety-fifth Street "Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the scepticism of a sceptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds... "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no child-like faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished... "No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. " Well, there you have it -- a rather florid testimonial, but I think it should remove all doubt. C. Boxer

squigglywiggly	05 Aug 2002
I don't get it. Love generosity devotion are emotions. They probably all have some kind of hormonal or chemical bases if doctors work hard enough they can figure it all out but the brain is a very messy kind of place so it is taking them some time to figure it out. Santa Claus on the other hand is supposed to be a person who travels all over the world in 24 hours and carries enough presents for millions and millions of children. This is simply impossible it is a myth.

Minderwiz	05 Aug 2002
Are you saying that myths contain no element of truth at all? Minderwiz

squigglywiggly	05 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz Are you saying that myths contain no element of truth at all? Minderwiz If I say that I have a million dollars, there is an element of truth. I have some money. But nowhere near a million dollars. So I lied. Every decent lie contains an element of truth. Otherwise it would make no sense to anyone and nobody would be taken in by it. If a statement is plausible or compelling, people believe it. Being plausible or compelling means there is an element of truth(making sense somehow). But all good lies are plausible or compelling (also false). A myth is a special kind of lie. It is a very, very old lie with lots of believers. But it is still a lie.

Minderwiz	05 Aug 2002
A lie is something that we affirm to be factually true even though we know that it is not so. Usually this is a statement such as Paris is the capital of the United Kingdom, but it could relate to our own beliefs - I believe that George Bush is a wise man. Whilst a lie is untrue in a factual or scientific sense this does not mean that Truth must on the reverse argument only relate to what is empirically proven. Tony Blair is King of France Tony Blair is a nice man Therefore the King of France is a nice man Is a syllogism. This syllogism leads to the logically true conclusion in the third line. It is true logically even if it is not true factually. There is a different meaning to the word Truth here. Similarly stories may accurately describe - truthfully relate - to the Human condition, they might not be factually true but they tell us something about ourselves and society that is still true. The word myth is derived from the Greek mythos which has too meanings, one is a story (not necessarily untrue in a factual or scientific sense) the other is a scheme or plan. Jung argued that myths are stories that tell us how mankind experiences the world. Apollo's chariot (and similar myths) may not correspond to a scientific explanation of the phenomena of surise and sunset but they do tell us that early mankind did not clearly differentiate between themselves and their environment. There is evidence that myths lie in the collective unconscious and are still at work in modern society. Astrology, Tarot, Dream analysis all draw on the archetypes that underly myths. These archetypes again may not be empirically objective but that does not make them untrue. I do not ask you to accept Jung's theories as being empirically true all that I ask is that you recognise that there are other meanings of truth beyond the empirical. Incidentally Santa Claus is a very modern marketing device rather than a myth. Minderwiz

catboxer	05 Aug 2002
"A myth is a female moth." --Mark Twain

squigglywiggly	05 Aug 2002
I am soooooo confused. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. If you are disagreeing, where did I go wrong. Also Tony Blair is not the King of France he is the King of England. P.S. Umbrae you erased "confused" and put "stupid" instead. How did you do that! Shame on you!

purplelady	05 Aug 2002
Tony Blair is the prime minister of england, I think.

Diana	05 Aug 2002
edited

purplelady	05 Aug 2002
Thank you Diana! :D .

Laurel	05 Aug 2002
Myths are not stories that dumb people believe to be factually true. Myths are stories that wise people understand to be allegories for the human condition. They are 'true' in that nifty archetypal sense. Santa Claus exists every time one of us takes the time, energy, and personal expense to bring the "Christmas spirit" to someone who would otherwise do with out. They aren't believing the myth- they are living it. They have gone from beyond believing in Santa to *becoming* Santa. And that is why Santa continues to exist. He's not just a story, he's something some of us have experienced first hand, either in ourselves or others. Holy Grace exists every time one of us is touched by the divine and exposed to a true sense of knowing, awe and revelation that there is something beyond human consciousness at work in the universe. To the unintiated, the cynical, the bitter lonely hearts of the world who have lost their ability to look beyond their own pain or own greed, of course myths are just dumb stories idiots believe in. They "know" better. They "know" the world is filled with only two kinds of people- victimizers and victims. Nothing exists which they can't understand and therefore control. Of course, having this amazing power doesn't seem to make most of them happy. So they of course scapegoat other people and other people's belief's, determined to drag everyone down into their own discontent. Thank goodness for the rest of us that we can perceive all the beauty and mystery and grandeur that lies beyond that shallow and disempowering world view where anything mythical or metaphysical is a lie or a sham. :P Laurel

MeeWah	05 Aug 2002
As stated elsewhere, this board exists for the purpose & the pleasure of sharing knowledge, insight & appreciation of Tarot. It offers a unique community of camaraderie & resources. The manipulation of a member's query is not only disrespectful of that person, but of the general audience! Anything other than the posted topic needs to be addressed via the appropriate media--whether through another forum or off-forum. In consideration of Aeclectic & of its members who enter here in good faith, continued flagrant abuses of the hospitality will likewise continue to be addressed accordingly. To those who endeavor to maintain the Aeclectic standard: the deepest appreciation for your good will & understandng.

Lee	05 Aug 2002
Laurel, thank you -- you have said exactly what I feel, but so much better than I could say it. It seems to me that the world-view that Laurel describes, the "shallow and disempowering world view where anything mythical or metaphysical is a lie or a sham," is a perfect description of the Rider-Waite-Smith Devil card, which in the Connolly deck is renamed "Materialism" and in the Illuminated Tarot is renamed "Illusion." -- Lee

Minderwiz	06 Aug 2002
In my previous post I was simply trying to point out that Truth is not a matter of Fact (though obviously this is one meaning to it) There are other ways in which something can be true, the syllogism about Tony Blair is logically true, even though the first statement is factually incorrect. Myths contain Truths about human nature - these may not be factual statements but they are true nontheless. As one or two subsequent posts have shown, there are religious and spiritual truths as well. We may not be able to demonstrate these in an empirical way and we may have to accept them as an act of faith but they still exist. These truths may not always have universal application - they may be personal (which is why I am wary of people who claim to have seen 'the' truth) but they have reality non the less, even if that is a personal reality - to quote Hamlet - 'this above all things to thine own self be true'. I too am saddened by a shallow view of truth and myth, though I suspect it is said to provoke (at least in terms of getting people to think for themselves). Minderwiz

LeoLady	06 Aug 2002
Thank you meewah for pointing out that the forum is indeed for those who appreciate and love working and sharing the tarot. I for one have enjoyed (almost) every post that people all over the world have taken the time and effort to do. It is very heartening to see so many people united in a single belief that will possibly better ourselves as human beings and come to a higher understanding of the tarot and the wisdom that comes with inner peace. Many thanks my friend x

Kazz	06 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia It may be a pathway between the seen & the unseen, the known & the unknown. It may be a system of stimulating & accessing the synchronistic universe & the archetypal unconscious. All disguised in a freaky little deck of cards. Tarotphelia I agree!:) Tarot to me is a wonderful and very powerful tool and should not be taken too lightly.IMO I shouldn't really be typing this, but i can't help myself! But on the "santa claus" thing, every child should have a childhood, full of dreams and fantasy and wonder, they grow up fast enough as it is and are grownups for alot longer. So lets keep these things alive for them for as long as we can. (BTW - Little kids are FAR from stupid, spend a little time with one, you may come away with egg on your face) Cheers Kazz :TQC

LeoLady	06 Aug 2002
P.S I heartily agree with the last post as well! If you had children (which you obviously don't Squiggles) can you honestly say that you'd tell your child that there is no santa Claus? Don't think so, and if you did, i can recommend you watch a film called Miracle on 34th Street

Dark Inquisitor	06 Aug 2002
At this juncture in our previously uplifting & enlightening conversation, I would ask you all to realize & bear in mind one important thing. One of the major reasons that squigglywiggly is posting irritating & provoking replies to all threads in this forum , may be only to gain your attention. (The topics are irrelevant to the purpose.) (That is also one of the the self- stated reasons for squigglywiggly's use of tarot to begin with.) The method is to divert the original intent of the thread and refocus it upon squigglywiggly. Which has now been accomplished. Draw your own conclusions. Meanwhile , back on topic, I wish to summarize my previous post and say that to me, the tarot is a Path and a Tool. Tarotphelia

Umbrae	06 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia the tarot is a Path and a Tool. Tarotphelia ...and like all tools, may be used for good or evil, depending on the hand the wields it.

Kazz	06 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae ...and like all tools, may be used for good or evil, depending on the hand the wields it. Ain't that the truth!

squigglywiggly	06 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia One of the major reasons that squigglywiggly is posting irritating & provoking replies to all threads in this forum , may be only to gain your attention. (The topics are irrelevant to the purpose.) We started talking about Santa Claus because Minderwiz said something about Oracles to try and discredit my approach to Tarot. All I wanted to do was to present a skeptic's view of Tarot and then leave but noooooooooo you guys wouldn't let it stay like that so I had to return and defend myself.

Jewel	06 Aug 2002
its an addiction ...

Umbrae	06 Aug 2002
The subject was not Santa Claus. You brought him into this thread, by stating he was a myth. The subject of this thread is “What is Tarot”. The name of this forum is Aeclectic Tarot. It is a forum of and for, folks who love and use Tarot. During the last month it has been stated repeatedly that you feel Tarot is a fraud and those who believe in its uses are fraudulent. You have attacked the beliefs of forum members repeatedly. Users of this forum are allowed to defend themselves and their beliefs against attacks. There is no need to defend yourself against defense. There once was a boy, who upon coming home from school was observed by his mother to be beaten. His clothing was torn, nose bloodied, eyes black and blue; “what happened to you?” she cried? “Well, the other kid hit me back.” You may present a skeptics view, but it should be presented with respect, not acerbic verbiage.

squigglywiggly	06 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae The subject was not Santa Claus. You brought him into this thread, by stating he was a myth. The subject was not Oracle either but when Minderwiz brings it into the thread it's OK because he buys into the whole new age divination hocus pocus thing and I don't. He also brought in Tony Blair. That's no problem when he does that is it? But when I bring in Santa Claus I am at fault. How is that fair?

Umbrae	06 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz Do Oracles work? Well I suppose enough must work for their to be an enduring belief in them. Whether this is by coincidence, wish fulfillment or trying to avoid bad things happening I don't know. I suspect that it works for those who believe in it and not for sceptics who will never be convinced by any evidence. I think most of us use the Tarot because we get a personal reward out of it. This reward is most likely non material but for us it raises the quality of the life experience and may enable us to understand life better than if we didn't use it. Minderwiz Quote: Originally posted by squigglywiggly There is also an enduring belief in Santa Claus ..... mostly by stupid little kids . Of course, as we all know, Santa Claus does not exist. Enduring belief is not proof of legitimacy. How is it fair? One was respectful of the beliefs of others, and was understanding of the similarities and differences between Tarot and Oracles. The other response was acerbic, lacked understanding, and implied that all users of this forum were stupid little kids. If this was a single incident, it would not raise ire. However there is a marked pattern of abusive posts. So what is Tarot? Further, how can something centuries old be new-age?

squigglywiggly	06 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae The other response was acerbic, lacked understanding, and implied that all users of this forum were stupid little kids . I clearly stated that the stupid little kids believe in Santa Claus. It wasn't directly related to Tarot. It was a point about belief and reality not being equal to each other. You are just trying to misinterpret things so you can yell at me. As for lacking understanding I understand everything. I just choose not to believe certain things. That doesn't mean I don't understand them it means I am not convinced by them.

Jewel	06 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by squigglywiggly But when I bring in Santa Claus I am at fault. How is that fair? It was not your bringing up Santa Claus ... it was your reference to "stupid little kids", and your attitude. Please refer back to Lee's post to you on page two of this thread ... he is right, and that was some great advice.

Dark Inquisitor	06 Aug 2002
It has occurred to me now that tarot is an Art & an Art Form. The art is in the ability to read the cards & relate them cohesively to one another & the client. In other words, the art of weaving the story and skillfully delivering the messages & insights to the seeker. Something that is expressive of the personality of the reader & interpreter . Using all the tools of intuition, symbols, the collective unconscious, myths, legends, personal meanings, etc. to create an ephemeral experience of beauty and depth that resonates on the spiritual level and provides a healing experience for both parties. There may be much art too, in the way one presents oneself to the client and creates the surroundings for the work. As an art form, the tarot has exploded into the creative imagination - so many decks & styles to choose from ! A true flowering of this exotic seed planted so long ago. Of course, New Age is just a title applied to the buried & suppressed knowledge revived in modern times. For the tarot, it may be truly a new age in deck diversity & availability. Even if one never reads at all, the tarot can be viewed as an art form to be studied & collected for its own sake. Tarotphelia

Umbrae	06 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae If this was a single incident, it would not raise ire. However there is a marked pattern of abusive posts.

Dark Inquisitor	06 Aug 2002
To more fully address our present & continuing intrusive conflict, it is not what is said that is the point at all - only the manipulated effect that is desired. It is pointless to argue, because it isn't about words & attitudes at all. Much in the manner of a troublesome ghost, the desire is to create conflict among the members of the unaware household, so as to feed off the resulting negative energy. To divert attention away from issues so it may be focused on the manipulative party. To continue to argue these points is a circular proposition and does not address the real underlying issue. Which will continue to keep cropping up no matter what until it is solved, (hopefully by some means outside of this forum) -or the failure to achieve the desired disruptive results that feed it. Tarotphelia

Minderwiz	06 Aug 2002
I've only just caught up with the more recent posts and its a bit sad that some element of argument has replaced the discussion. my comment about oracles was actually an extension of a point made by Catboxer, and not in anyway an 'attack' on Squiggly as he seems to assume. I also did not say that being enduring was a proof of legitimacy if he cares to re-read. I did say that I supposed there must be something to them. Since then I have tried to indicate that I believe that Truth is beyond simple empiricism. The point being that the 'Truth' in the Tarot or any other set of beliefs may lie more in the relevance to the reader (and querent) than in someone else's objective reality. I believe the Tarot (and Astrology, and many more divinatory methods) allow us to communicate with our higher selves. I cannot prove this and would not wish to poor scorn on the beliefs of those who disagree. In return I would hope that they would respect the views of people such as myself and other members and not try to belittle them. I think someone posted to the effect that we should not be deflected from the thread of 'what is the Tarot' hopefully we can contine discussiong what it means and its relevance to life with respect to views we don't agree with. Minderwiz

LeoLady	06 Aug 2002
Well!!!! Have just returned to the forum and would like to say that in all honesty, that my remark about our Queen was to be informative for squiggly!! Just a bit of info for future reference. Anyway, back to the matter in hand - what is tarot? I have another question that may be better off in another thread but I would like to know why it is that other people are not allowed to touch your 'cards' without your permission? My husband (sceptic) went to have a nosy at them and i shrieked at him not to touch! He then asked me why and I have to say I had NO IDEA!! :D Any enlightenment so that i may put DH in his place! lol x P.S. Although some remarks by Squiggly may have offended and upset some people..(me included - sorry Squiggles) I suppose there is a valid reason to question why we believe in it the way we do, but perhaps it could have been worded more 'delicately'!! No matter what anyone says in this forum, and nearly all have been very supportive, those of us who believe and choose to believe are still going to, no matter what's been said. Perhaps there should be a new forum added entitled 'Non Believer? Give your Opinion here!' Then at least it gives ppl the opportunity to vent their opinions in a constructive manner. Blessings to you all (squiggly included!) ;) PPS...Jewel..love your avatar! x 8)

Minderwiz	06 Aug 2002
I echo your PSs On others touching your cards and your reaction. I suppose one could make an argument which relates to the cards picking up and holding vibrations from those who touch them. In any reading there is a person doing the reading and a person for whom the reading is done. Physically these two may be the same - a reading for yourself. However if the vibrational argument is a working hypothesis, then a third person (someone who is not connected with the reading) may leave vibrations that interfere with the reading. Perhaps more so if they are sceptical, though I think that is not particularly important. On the other hand we could have the 'they're mine keep off' argument based simply on possession - you might feel the same about your dearly beloved handling other possessions, especially when he doesn't see the point of them. He's interfering with your space in otherwords! On the forum for sceptics, I'm not sure. I quite enjoy discussing issues with sceptics, because on a lot of things in life I'm sceptical too. I believe in the value of doubt - it makes us examine what we do and why. I think sceptics should contribute wherever they like and for some threads some of us may also be the sceptics. So long as they put forward good arguments, are willing to listen and indeed make reasoned criticisms, I think we will all gain. Minderwiz

Minderwiz	06 Aug 2002
Just reread my post after it came up and realised that I'm sceptical about a sceptics forum - perhaps I should have posted this on that forum, if it ever gets going! Sorry to be sceptical. Minderwiz

LeoLady	06 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz Just reread my post after it came up and realised that I'm sceptical about a sceptics forum - perhaps I should have posted this on that forum, if it ever gets going! Sorry to be sceptical. Minderwiz Lol Mindy!!! Thanks for the feedback! It seems tho that most of the books I have say something about 'others touching' your cards. I personally don't have a problem with him wanting to see them. If he's interested enough to have a look, I suppose he's trying to understand what my fascination (and obsession) is.:D I think in my heart that the cards are mine anyways, and that my energy and higher power will still be dominant no matter who touches them x

Moongold	06 Aug 2002
My way of answering the question - Using Morgan Greer 1. What is Tarot? 10 of Rods 2. How does Tarot speak? Ace of Rods (rx) 3. To what purpose does Tarot speak? 3 Swords (rx) Sometimes, in embracing life, we become burdened and our spirits no longer see. Tarot provides us with another view of what is and what can be. It does this by way of imagery, intuition and a some ancient principles but deeply respects our autonomy in how we use these tools. Drawing from Pollack (78DW P. 83), often we are closed to wonder, truth and happiness even though they exist in the world around us. Through the tools outlined above, the Tarot can help us to see these things. It lets us speak through our own perceptions and in our own voices. Finally, the Tarot can release us from ignorance and offers us a path to unique knowledge and understanding. I am a Sagittarian, a fire person, a member of the Wand family, and this reading spoke directly to me. Your own might have other words. Love to you all Moongold

DarkElectric	06 Aug 2002
Sounds to me that you got recognised as a bully, and now you're just mad.

Umbrae	07 Aug 2002
Tarot is a key. It opens doors. As a key it opens doors to the soul, the mind, the realm of the spirit, and the woven strands of the tapestry which we call time. Sometimes we only get a glimpse before the door shuts, leaving us breathless and wondering upon what we think we saw. Sometimes a door disappears to give us a new understanding, a new view of our world. Sometimes the doors are those in the lives of others and their realms. These doors provide us with the openings through which we may aid or assist others. It is a key by which we may open doors to light, or doors of darkness, weal or woe. It may be a language, a religion, music or mute; cardboard or toy and game. One day it may unlock a doorway to the depths of despair, and the next bring tears of joy. It is a key to a lock which no locksmith dare touch, for it turns the tumblers of the soul. ‘Snick’. Did you hear that? Perhaps the door is unlocked. Care to follow me through?

fairyhedgehog	07 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz Jung argued that myths are stories that tell us how mankind experiences the world. That is beautifully put, Minderwiz, as was your entire post. I think I like Jung, but I've only read odd bits about him and not any of his actual writings. What would you suggest as an easily accessible book either by or about Jung? Regards, FH

fairyhedgehog	07 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by squigglywiggly As for lacking understanding I understand everything. Well, I wish I did :D Actually, I don't wish I understood everything, or there'd be nothing more to learn, which would be boring. Like Tarot: I don't understand it, and divination fits rather poorly into my worldview, but hey! I could be wrong it's happened before :) And I love Tarot for the art, and the symbolism, and the mythology. I love it for what I can learn of human nature and of my own nature. I love it for telling stories. I love it for .... Who was it said it's a passion? I think you're right :D Love and light to all FH

fairyhedgehog	07 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Tarot is a key. It opens doors. Quote: ‘Snick’ Did you hear that? Perhaps the door is unlocked. Care to follow me though? This was a beautiful post, Umbrae, I really enjoyed reading it. Love and light, FH

Minderwiz	07 Aug 2002
Fairyhedgehog, Try 'An Introduction to Jung's Psychology' by Freida Fordham. Its published by Peguin and in the UK its £7.99 and quite a slim volume. Minderwiz

MeeWah	07 Aug 2002
Moongold & Umbrae: Very well-expressed & I concur! The individual perception is oft hampered by the myriad of details which accompany the daily life. Tarot is a means of bridging the gap between the finite perception & that of the infinite; thus penetrating the veil between ignorance & enlightenment.

divinerguy	07 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah Tarot is a means of bridging the gap between the finite perception & that of the infinite; thus penetrating the veil between ignorance & enlightenment. Fascinating conclusion, and one with which I don't disagree. Do you have any thoughts on how this mechanism occurs?

MeeWah	07 Aug 2002
The human condition is such that for general purposes, it is limited to a peripheral vision, a characteristic of the mundane; however, such vision need not confined to that boundary. Perception depends on the boundaries of one's vision &/or understanding. Tarot represents a far greater body of knowledge & wisdom than mere divination; it is a wholistic view. Tarot offers the opportunity to move from the conceptual to the practical. In working with its principles, it requires both the intellectual & intuitive levels to work together. It is that process that assists in creating the bridge or refining the understanding; that makes the leap from the mundane to the inspired/the divine.

bergmann	07 Aug 2002
Why is it that the divinatory view of Tarot is respected but the skeptical view of Tarot is disrespected on this board? For a group of so-called open-minded people, a lot of you seem way too bigoted and immersed in unified, unforgiving groupthink!

divinerguy	07 Aug 2002
That's because these boards are offered for the purpose of advancing Tarot, not for tearing it down.

Jewel	07 Aug 2002
Leo Lady, thanks for the compliment on the Avatar, Kayne deserves all the praise for it as he made it for me :) To respond to your question about someone else touching your cards being a "no no" ... That really varies from person to person. Minderwiz answered your question very eloquently. For the most part I do not care who touches my decks as long as they do not manhandle them as I have my own little ritual of ordering the cards to "cleanse" them so to speak. I do have one deck however that I do not like others to touch, and like Minderwiz said it is the "personal possession " and "my space" thing, nothing more nothing less *LOL*. There are myths out there that say things like: do not let others touch your cards; decks must be given to you you should not buy your own; you should wrap your cards in silk, etc, etc, etc. If you think about it, all those are is about protecting your cards from getting ruined or to make add "specialness" to the deck. So in that since they are very valid ... from a standpoint of them affecting the readings you get from your decks I would say it would only affect if you if you believe it will affect the reading. Tarot to me, other than being an addiction, is about connecting with my higher self. I am more into the academics of Tarot (probably the reason I do not mind if others touch my decks) than into divination, but on occassion I do readings for myself or close friends. What I find is that the images on the cards, and their arrangement help me view the issue at hand from a different perspective thus opening new options for me. So to me, tarot is tool. It does not tell me the future, it only helps me look at the possibilities and to look closely at my own attitudes and behaviors. It is ultimately up to me how the situation will play out.

MeeWah	07 Aug 2002
Bergmann: Welcome to Talking Tarot! It is not so much that skeptism is not respected, but the general attitude is at issue. Intelligent discussion is encouraged so skeptism is healthy to an extent, but it is inappropriate to ridicule or to otherwise malign the interest in furthering the understanding in Tarot.

zorya	07 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Tarot is a key. It opens doors. umbrae, well said! your post was wise, inspiring and beautifully put!

Dark Inquisitor	07 Aug 2002
Yes- welcome bergmann!! I hope you're not squigglywiggly. Tarotphelia

Minderwiz	07 Aug 2002
Welcome Bergmann. Perhaps the reason why so many people seem to share very similar views here is that a Tarot site attracts people who believe that Tarot works. I'm not quite sure what you meant by Sceptical views of the Tarot, other than it doesn't work. We don't mind people expressing their views or challenging us to explain why we believe. The only thing that we ask is that such challenges are not put in an abusive, ridiculing, or ill tempered way. The honest doubter is to be valued. People who just want to provoke or upset are not. Please stay with us and enter discussions freely, even if you feel that you are a dissenter or in a minority. Minderwiz

Laurel	07 Aug 2002
Minderwiz expressed it all so eloquently in his last post. I'm going to add to it something that is my opinion and not holy gospel. In a lot of ways, I see the Aeclectic as a living manifestation of the tarot, each of us a symbolic "card" (what card we symbolize is constantly co-evolving). There are lots of swords, wands, cups, pentacles here and definately some Major Arcana :) Each of us is unique, but we also share a symbolic language and an unspoken understanding that beyond the I and Thou there is a synergestic We. Anyone who doesn't share the symbolic language and unspoken understanding and denies their validity won't be comfortable here. A plain poker "Joker" looks out of place in the middle of a Thoth tarot deck. A lot of the people here have invested enormous time and energy, made sacrifices of both a material and emotional kind, to develop a very sacred connection with tarot and possibly all the related metaphysical arts- astrology, numerology, cabala, alchemy, archetypal psychology as well as having a deeply spiritual rapport with one or more gods/God. But on the other hand, their beliefs and opinions are extremely -different-. In order to communicate, everyone has to accept that what they know to be true for themselves may not be true for someone or everyone else, and to express themselves in non-insulting, non-belittling ways even when they are cynical. Disagreement is good. Open-minded doubt and wary sceptism is good. But petty sarcasm and a closed, arrogant self-centered world view disguised as "healthy sceptism" is not welcome here. Some particularly intuitive people, the ones who have spent a lot of time honing their skills beyond just reading cards to reading people see right through most attempts to belittle or manipulate them or the conversations that they are participating in. To most of us here, tarot isn't a cheap card game. Its a way of life, a paradigm all in its own. We've started thinking in tarot archetypes. And like any good tarot card, lots of folks on Aeclectic are more than capable to provide the answers that someone ~needs~ to hear, even if they didn't ~want~ to hear them. Laurel

DarkElectric	07 Aug 2002
Welcome Bergman. As others have mentioned, dissent and debate are encouraged, hostility and abuse are not. I think that many of us share the opinion "We agree to disagree" and not allow it to degenerate into a personal attack. Healthy scepticism in any area is the sign of a seeker. Flaming and invective is the the sign of immaturity.

DarkElectric	07 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by bergmann Why is it that the divinatory view of Tarot is respected but the skeptical view of Tarot is disrespected on this board? For a group of so-called open-minded people, a lot of you seem way too bigoted and immersed in unified, unforgiving groupthink! By the way, bergmann, how did you manage to come to this conclusion in your very first post?

jmd	07 Aug 2002
What a wonderful comment by Laurel, and one I can only wholeheartedly concur with: that we strive to 'develop a very sacred connection with tarot'. In any spiritual path, or even general path of self-development, one of its first steps is the recognise the sacred in our surroundings, and to therefore develop a reverential disposition. It is only through reverence that what is investigated will more fully reveal itself. The same can also be said of human relationships generally, irrespective of our own peculiar field of endeavours, employment or interests: by reverentially approaching the client, friend, stranger - or internet communicator - an opening for understanding emerges. This attitude does not preclude scepticism (I too prefer the UK/Aus. spelling of this word, Minderwiz). We all have, after all, sceptical tendencies towards various areas, including aspects of Tarot which we are still investigating and searching. The scepticism, however, needs to be combined with an attitude of positive disposition and reverence. For some, the sceptical attitude may actually prevent true investigations, in the same way that certain sceptical atitudes regarding certain areas prevented church leaders looking through Galileo's telescope from even seeing the Moons of Jupiter... if only they had had a more reverential attitude to the world around them, and not presumed their own meagre knowledge, they may in fact have been able to 'train their eyes' to see what Galileo had slowly been able to observe. This of course brings in some of MeeWah's comments... which are certainly worth a re-read!

divinerguy	09 Aug 2002
I believe that the pictures and archetypes of the Tarot trigger associations within our subconscious, whether collective or individual. Because the archetypes are universal, they trigger those associations in many different people and situations, causing us to raise up our heads and say, "Aha!" I cannot say whether there is a spritual connection to the manner in which the archetypes trigger the associations, nor can anyone, I think. That's the nature of sprirtuality.

The Dumb Question Time: What is Tarot? thread was originally posted on 04 Aug 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.