Miss Cleo as proof that tarot is invalid?
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Daisymoon3 |
19 Aug 2002 |
|
What do you say to someone who uses "Miss Cleo" to prove tarot is a sham?
My essay for school is on the concept of tarot. I want to use this skeptic's response, but need a quote from the other view. I have my own opinion, but can't use mine in the paper.
Help?
|
| zorya |
19 Aug 2002 |
|
hi daisymoon,
we've had several threads on miss cleo that may be of help to you. use the search button, in the upper right corner.
|
| the hermit |
19 Aug 2002 |
|
Originally posted by Daisymoon3
What do you say to someone who uses "Miss Cleo" to prove tarot is a sham?
My essay for school is on the concept of tarot. I want to use this skeptic's response, but need a quote from the other view. I have my own opinion, but can't use mine in the paper.
Help?
One possible "con artist" using a tool doesn't mean that all who use the same tool are frauds.
But you can't convince anyone of anything if they don't have an open mind.
Scientific studies by various "experts" have proved that many concepts not quite fully explained by science do seem to work... such as prayer and "positive thinking" as well as "giving up" or negative thinking.
That being said, it would also seem to me to depend on what concept of tarot you wish to "prove".
As a meditation tool? Some of us here use it for that.
As a tool for life guidance? Same answer.
As a divination tool? Same answer again.
As an entertainment tool? And again.
I use tarot as a meditational tool to help me focus on issues and concepts.
From there I often use tarot as a life guidance tool. I have problem “A”… and the need to look for what possible solutions. It helps me think both “inside” and “outside” of the box. Drawing the Queen of Swords while looking for answers concerning a work related issue might help me see that…
a) someone that “fits” her “physical” attributes as understood by me or as assigned by “traditional” interpretations might be involved that I hadn’t thought of.
OR
b) maybe I haven’t thought about using my own self-reliance or wisdom to really look at the issue or I might have been too reliant on myself and need to look to others for guidance.
OR
c) perhaps I need to rethink what the problem is and what I’ve thought about for solutions and then perhaps even draw another card for further inspiration.
As for divination, I don’t believe that tarot can “forecast” the future. But as shown above, I do think it can help me examine issues and show me different “paths” to solutions.
And yes, I believe that I can use this tool to help others in the same way that I help myself.
|
| Daisymoon3 |
19 Aug 2002 |
|
Originally posted by the hermit
Scientific studies by various "experts" have proved that many concepts not quite fully explained by science do seem to work... such as prayer and "positive thinking" as well as "giving up" or negative thinking.
That being said, it would also seem to me to depend on what concept of tarot you wish to "prove".
As a meditation tool? Some of us here use it for that.
As a tool for life guidance? Same answer.
As a divination tool? Same answer again.
As an entertainment tool? And again.
I
Great answer! Thanks!
My essay is about tarot as a whole, so I describe all the different ways it is used.
|
| divinerguy |
19 Aug 2002 |
|
If you're looking vfor report or debate material, use Carl Jung's theories about synchronicty and the collective unconscious as an opposing viewpoint.
You're not going to prove or disprove the validity of Tarot in a debate, but, if you're prepared, you can make your opponent look unprepared.
That's the best approach I can suggest.
If your opponent pulls out Miss Cleo, that's not a fair argument. That's called an "ad hominem" attack - where you attack a person instead of the point being discussed.
When they pull out Miss Cleo - it means there is a lack of legitimate evidence to prove their point.
If they say you don't have any evidence, remind them that Christians can't prove the existence of God any more effectively than you can prove the validity of Tarot.
|
| Thirteen |
19 Aug 2002 |
|
Daisy, I want you to read this carefully, and trust me. I mean this. TRUST ME. I use to teach essay writing. I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about:
It depends on what your thesis is. If your essay is just an exploration of Tarot, it's origins, uses, history, etc. Then you're fine.
But if you're thesis is something like "TAROT CAN ACCURATELY PREDICT THE FUTURE!" or "TAROT IS NOT A SHAM! IT'S REAL" then, it's time to get a new thesis.
One of the biggest NO-NO's in essay writing is an "unreliable authority." Like asking a basketball player which automobile is the best--he plays basketball, how would he know? So you say, "okay, I'll ask a car dealer." But if he works for Honda, then he's compromised. You can't trust him to be objective, especially if he says, "Hondas are the best cars." So now you find a mechanic who's worked on thousands of different cars--and isn't in the pay of any car company. Ah, there, an unbiased authority.
But how are you going to find anyone who's not bias if your question is "are tarot cards a sham?" It's like asking if there is a god. Those who believe they are will say "yes," those that don't will say, "no," and there's no hard evidence to support either one (unlike the car where a machanic can say, "these cars never need engine repairs, they shift gears smoothly....etc.).
However, since you have to assume "no" until proven "yes," the sham folk win.
Why do the "sham folk" win? Because you can't prove a negative. You can't say, "you can't not prove tarot cards don't work!"--it's up to us to prove they DO work, not up to them to prove they don't. And all we have to offer is personal experience ("I once predicted it would rain and it did! See. Tarot cards aren't a sham!"). It's not good enough. You need hard evidence. Blind tests, etc.
Okay, almost at the end of the lecture here. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but remember this about essay writing: yes, pick something you're passionate about. But NEVER, never pick anything that is your "religion." Because you have to be hard, ruthless and objective. And unless you're willing to research this essay and maybe come out the other side saying, "gosh, it is a sham,"--or accept a "C+" on an essay that is about something you love and personally care about (meaning, feel that the teacher has just insulted your beliefs not critiqued your writing abilities)--then this NOT the essay you should be doing.
End of lecture.
|
| Mojo |
19 Aug 2002 |
|
How's this for an approach.... Why not accept that Tarot and many of its practitioners are indeed a sham. So why do people by the tens of thousands in this day and age still seek it out as an oracle? And spend tons of money on it, as witnessed by the Miss Cleo lawsuits.
After all, Tarot was invented as a card game and adopted by wandering gypsies as a fortune telling con game in order to bilk the local yokels out of their hard-earned money. It has a 500 year history of being associated with people just like Miss C of varying degrees of sleaziness. And come on, anyone with a pulse can tell that the jolly Jamaican is just a huckster. She never even attempts to hide it very well. People actually WANT to believe in her.
They call her 800 number and they give out their credit card numbers and they rack up hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of phone charges listening to her and her fellow phonemates. And they seek out those of us who practice on a smaller scale, whether we consider it a card game or some sort of magical mystery tour of the universe. They listen to what we say. They get hooked and sometimes they begin to rely on our advice in a very scary way.
I have regular clients who are CEOs and senior executives of major companies. They ask me to look at the cards to help them make business decisions. These are MBA and PhD holders, yet still they call. It amazes me to no end (especially since I'm one of those "card game" tarotists).
And it is the same the world over and has been throughout history. Hitler consulted psychics and Ronald Reagan had his astrologer.
So what does that say about the human animal?
P.T Barnum said it best... there's a sucker born every second. We're just here to give them their money's worth.
|
| fairyhedgehog |
20 Aug 2002 |
|
Originally posted by the hermit
As for divination, I don’t believe that tarot can “forecast” the future. But as shown above, I do think it can help me examine issues and show me different “paths” to solutions.
And yes, I believe that I can use this tool to help others in the same way that I help myself.
I really relate to this way of using tarot, except that I can't see how to use it in relation to other people. I have a couple of friends who are not opposed to tarot, but I have no idea how I would use tarot with them if that became an option. Any thoughts?
|
| fairyhedgehog |
20 Aug 2002 |
|
If you see Tarot as a set of cards that reflect 'archetypes', ie ideas deeply embedded in the human mind, then the word 'sham' doesn't really apply. Tarot may work for you, to help you consider ideas that otherwise might not have occured to you about a situation, or it might be a total washout for you, but in neither case is it a sham.
Of course, you get fraudulent people who claim more for the tarot than they truly believe it can deliver. They are 'shams'. And you get people who believe that the tarot foretells the future, and they may be mistaken, although I would not call them a sham.
Anyway, just my two cents worth :)
|
| the hermit |
20 Aug 2002 |
|
Originally posted by fairyhedgehog
I really relate to this way of using tarot, except that I can't see how to use it in relation to other people. I have a couple of friends who are not opposed to tarot, but I have no idea how I would use tarot with them if that became an option. Any thoughts?
Take a look at this thread for one way that I read for others...
four sets of two
|
| fairyhedgehog |
20 Aug 2002 |
|
Originally posted by the hermit
Take a look at this thread for one way that I read for others...
four sets of two
I had read that before and not fully taken it in. I like the idea of looking at as many possibilities as you can. Using the whole deck really sounds like fun :)
I think maybe my problem is that I still see tarot as a bit 'naughty' and expect people to be negative about it. (Which many are.) Plus I'm worried that whatever I say, my friends will take the cards as 'telling the future' and I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. Maybe I just need to take the plunge ...
|
| the hermit |
20 Aug 2002 |
|
Originally posted by fairyhedgehog
I had read that before and not fully taken it in. I like the idea of looking at as many possibilities as you can. Using the whole deck really sounds like fun :)
I think maybe my problem is that I still see tarot as a bit 'naughty' and expect people to be negative about it. (Which many are.) Plus I'm worried that whatever I say, my friends will take the cards as 'telling the future' and I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. Maybe I just need to take the plunge ...
I always tell querents that "I can't predict the weather, let alone the future" and make it clear that I'm trying to help them see the "paths" for solution that "might" be available. I can't suggest anything else except go for it.
Running through the whole deck was/is fun.
Helping someone see the possibilities is even more fun.
|
| Daisymoon3 |
20 Aug 2002 |
|
Originally posted by the hermit
One possible "con artist" using a tool doesn't mean that all who use the same tool are frauds.
May I have your permission to cite you?
|
| Daisymoon3 |
20 Aug 2002 |
|
The essay is a concept essay. I cannot argue for or against tarot, just explain what it is and how it is seen. I included the skeptics point of view and the supporters rebuttal in the essay.
Would you like to see it? I would love some feedback on it before I hand it in!
|
| Jewel |
20 Aug 2002 |
|
Hi Daisymoon3,
You have gotten some really great suggestions and advice in this thread. Like the Hermit I use the tarot for many things other than divination, divination is actually what I use it the least for. I also share the Hermit's and Fairyhedgehogs belief that the Tarot cannot predict the future, but heightens your level of conciousness making you look at things from perspective that you might have ignored.
Other than the Ms. Cleo being a sham argument, what other sceptic view have you included? you might browse through some of the posts here on Aeclectic and find some really good sceptical points.
I would love to see your essay! Thanks for sharing.
|
| Poetlove |
20 Aug 2002 |
|
I agree with the whole con artist issue. I mean sterotyping all people on the ideas of one person is something we have strived to over come, yet people keep doing it.
Some people are going to use what they can to get money. It is like the age old physic issue too.
|
| the hermit |
20 Aug 2002 |
|
Originally posted by Daisymoon3
May I have your permission to cite you?
sure...
that's "the hermit"
small t, small h
25+ years of metaphysical and occult studies
solitary practicing druid (small d) not affiliated with any organization
|
| DarkElectric |
25 Aug 2002 |
|
I think the whole Miss Cleo debacle only serves to prove that SHE is a sham, not psychism or tarot!
And Mojo has a real good point...that's entertainment.
|
The Miss Cleo as proof that tarot is invalid? thread was originally posted on 19 Aug 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
|
