skepticism and tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

zorya	07 Aug 2002
i have no problem with skepticism. don't believe? then seek knowledge. i respect inquiring minds. go ahead, ask questions. questioning is a sign of intelligence. what is not a sign of intelligence, is closing your mind to other possibilities. to claim that tarot is just a parlour trick, is to deny possibilities. it wasn't so long ago that people denied the existance of any living thing smaller than the human eye can see. "can't see/prove it, it doesn't exist". if someone wants to look at the world through a narrow window, and only believe that which the five senses can prove, than that's their choice. but i ask that they please do not disrespect my choice to open my mind beyond the five senses. funny thing about discussions. when you treat people with respect, they will be more likely to listen to you. this does not mean that we all have to agree. it would be pretty boring if we all did think alike. if we can discuss things with open minds and compassion, if we each strive to harm none, then i think we will find that we have plenty of room for, and will welcome, all kinds of ideas. bright blessings to all, zorya

Original Destiny	07 Aug 2002
:TFOOL small minds, small lives

bergmann	07 Aug 2002
what is the process through which a set of cards is able to reflect information about the future? you can't just say something about being open to possibilities. that's not how the inquiry for knowledge works. the burden of proof is on the person making the outrageous claim.

Marion	07 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Original Destiny :TFOOL small minds, small lives

Sam	07 Aug 2002
go zorya!!! i always do things the opposite of everyone! i try to stand out! (i.e. wear bright colors, TRY to get my room painted likewise, but parents always say no, poo!)

Keslynn	07 Aug 2002
Did I remember you saying you're a Leo, Sam dear? That last post just about proved it. lol :TQW Kes

Lee	07 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by bergmann what is the process through which a set of cards is able to reflect information about the future? you can't just say something about being open to possibilities. that's not how the inquiry for knowledge works. the burden of proof is on the person making the outrageous claim. As a moderator (although not of this forum), I would like to point out to everyone that no one in these forums is under a "burden of proof" to prove anything. No one here is required to justify themselves or their beliefs. The purpose of these forums is for people of like mind to get together and enjoy talking with each other. That's the agenda. If someone wants a different agenda, they are perfectly free to start their own forum somewhere else. -- Lee

Sam	07 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Keslynn Did I remember you saying you're a Leo, Sam dear? That last post just about proved it. lol i was just thinking about that yesterday! my favorite colors are orange, yellow and red. (in that order) they are also the colors of fire, (by the way, i think i might be becoming a pyro! i love fire!) and leo is a fire sign! lol

jmd	08 Aug 2002
As zorya says, 'to claim that tarot is just a parlour trick, is to deny possibilities'. Personally, I would go even further, for it could be asked under what pretext can such a dogmatic statement be made? Many areas of investigation were outside 'legitimacy' until, amongst numerous others, people like Jung, Steiner, Tomberg, Smart, Idel, Scholem, and saw it fit to look into. For people genuinely looking into Tarot, there is no doubt that what may be deemed a healthy scepticism, combined with graciousness and reverence, will lead to quite depths of understanding. In one of the above posts, bergmann asks two types of important questions, and even if the style can be confronting, the questions are nonetheless valuable. The first is: 'what is the process through which a set of cards is able to reflect information about the future?' Here is a question which many of us have struggled with in various ways, and previous important (and positive) threads have touched upon this. For me, it seems to some extant evident that if I get in my car and drive into the city, the movie which will be shown (future) is part of the cause of the current event. The future, then, may very well have effects upon the present (Aristotle called this class of causes final causes). With Tarot, there is more to it than this, of course, and our various views complement, at the least, each other's. One possibility is that the spiritual dimension of this world (I am not going to begin to argue for the basis of this, and some on the Forum will reject - in my view unwisely - the very possibility of such) act upon the medium of the Tarot to indicate certain propensities in a situation. The experienced reader draws from their wealth of background knowledge, and the inspiration given to them directly from the small voice of guiding spiritual beings, as to the cards' meaning. The first type of question sought, then, for an explanation as to how Tarot can 'reflect the future' - in other words, a question very much about the essence of Tarot. The second question seeks for how to communicate one's findings to those who just do not agree. Many have been tortured for trying just this in the history of science, for one cannot prove that the Earth isn't flat, or that is isn't motionless, etc. What is required is a greater understanding by the sceptic willing (and psychologically able) to open their understanding and views to other possibilities. In psychological terms, a Gestalt switch has to be made by the sceptic. Only then can the evidence be actually seen for what it is. But I've already written much, and will conclude by echoeing Lee: 'in these forums [no-one] is under a "burden of proof" to prove anything'

Minderwiz	08 Aug 2002
I'm not sure that the working of the Tarot is capable of proof anyway, at least not in an empirical or scientific sense. There's a good article in the current Mountain Astrologer looking at a similar issue in relation to Astrology. As with Astrology it could be argued that Tarot is a study of meaning - the meanings in the patterns made by the cards in a spread and the meanings of the individual pictures on the cards themselves. To get the meaning 'correctly' may well involve believing that there are valid meanings in the pattern and if the reading is done for someone else then they in turn my also need to believe in the meanings, at least enough to act on them in a considered way. If the belief is absent, which it would be in a laboratory experiment then the pattern may be meaningless or random. Neither reader nor querent would be serious about the exercise. One other thing strikes me, Tarot, like Astrology indicates trends, patterns it does not foretell the future in any deterministic sense. If a (male) querent goes to a Tarot reader for a reading relating to whether he will marry a certain female - he may well be told that there are obstacles to the marriage and the nature of these. The reader may conclude that unless the querent deals with the obstacles the marriage is very unlikely. If the Querent goes off, considers the reading and takes some appropriate (in terms of the reading) action and a few months later marries the female, was the Reading correct? Believers would argue that it was - action was taken by the Querent to overcome the obstacles shown. Sceptics would argue that the marriage shows that the reading was wrong - the reading indicated the marriage was unlikely but the marriage still took place. They would also argue that the post reading actions of the querent made little or no difference. I believe that the Tarot works, it enables us or others to consider a situation and examine what we should do. Whether it does this by putting us in touch with our higher selves, or with our spirit guides, or simply makes us take a long look at the situation the outcome is better than if we had not done the reading. Again I would favour the psychic dimension but if the querent feels that the reading helped him or her is that nor the more important aspect? Minderwiz

Laurel	08 Aug 2002
Speaking of scepticism, here is a marvelous link that provides an intelligently worded sceptical point of view of tarot. http://skepdic.com/tarot.html I don't believe that tarot "reveals the future". I do believe it helps clarify the possibilities and likely outcomes. My personal opinion is that tarot is less of an oracle and more like a guidance tool to help querents reflect on the past and present to make better informed decisions on the future. The fact that tarot cards are imbued with sacred symbols and archetypes makes it easier for us to tap into the semi-conscious and unconscious mind, because the language of the unconscious is completely written in symbol. A "four" generally means something different than a "five" and because we have both a shared universal unconscious at some level and a more evident social/environmental "imprinting" of what these symbols represent (circles, triangles, white, black, fire, water) its very easy for us to discern complex ideas from very basic symbols and just "know" something. On the other hand, I have witnessed psychic and spiritual phenomenon (sometimes involving tarot) that I cannot explain, even with archetypal or deep psychology. So I appreciate that there's still mystery out there, beyond what science is able to grasp. Laurel

Jewel	08 Aug 2002
I completly agree with what both Minderwiz and Laural have expressed so eloquently. I personally do not believe that the Tarot tells the future, I see its symbolism speaking to me through my unconscious mind which can interpret the symbols and provide me with guidance (i.e. aspects to look by exploring options or further studying a situation before taking a course of action). I think it is also important to mention that Tarot is not used exclusively for divination purposes. I for one do not primarily use Tarot for that. To me it is a tool of self exploration and of academic interest. The cards in and of themselves , depending on the deck and creators, bring many aspects of other metaphysical, mythical, historical, psychological and even religious subjects. Studying the correlations and how and why these integrations were made is very fascinating to me. It always takes me onto a new subject to explore. Thus the Tarot has expanded my knowledge in various areas. In addition, the tarot is an excellent tool to practice meditation (focus on the imagery of the cards), for writting short stories and poetry, etc. It can spark and fuel creativity.

Original Destiny	08 Aug 2002
I have really enjoyed reading your view on this topic and have found them most stimulating..For me the Tarot is like a well of refreshing water, dip the bucket in and draw forth water to put out a fire. a fire created by fear of not knowing, of panic, of blindness....or draw forth water of life, giving meaning and purpose...or draw water for passage, to ease journeys...Its all the same water...its how you use it and it is there wether you use it or not.:TFOOL

The skepticism and tarot thread was originally posted on 07 Aug 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.