suffering and tarot ?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Sullanciri2002	23 Aug 2002
I hope the person in question doesn't mind me launching this thread ... but I have read someone's story recently, concerning how she got involved with the tarot and got into developing a deck. As a psychologist, I have to wonder if there's a relation between a person's "suffering" and sensitivity to the tarot or other spiritual matters. There's some logic in the idea that spoilt people who've always gotten everything they wanted, will miss out on the depth of feeling and compassion that helps to link with something like the tarot.

Kiama	23 Aug 2002
I can see your theory here... It makes sense, cuz the more suffering somebody has gone through, the more experience of the worlkd thy have, and thus, the more capability of being able to recognise that experience in a reading for somebody else. It also helps if the reader can empathise... For me personally this is very true. I haven't ha the easiest life, due to being born into a lower working class family, but I have also done some pretty cool things in my time, which I did quite young, so I kinda got a head-start in empathy for my querents! Even now I find it very easy to understand the more 'adult' problems, and I could do back when I was 14. I guess it all links in with intuition, and sensitivity to other's problems. Kiama

Jenny-Li	23 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sullanciri2002 There's some logic in the idea that spoilt people who've always gotten everything they wanted, will miss out on the depth of feeling and compassion that helps to link with something like the tarot. Theoretical logic perhaps... But personally I think that view is too generalized. We are all different people and that is what makes some of us fall into working with the tarot, while some people try it for fortunetelling once or twice, don't get it and leaves it behind. Some people who suffer greatly respond to that by closing themselves up and denying everything, reacting with anger and hostility to the world that has treated them badly. Are they too accessing the "depth of feeling and compassion that helps to like with something like the tarot"? The opposite goes for the "spoilt people" you mention, spoilt with what, by the way? Things? Love? Does one become a less compassionate tarot reader if you been spoilt with love? Do you know compassion better if you have been on your own your whole life? Being spoilt with an easy life? Is there such a thing? Who is to be the judge of that? I'm not saying your theory can't be true in certain cases, I'm sure it can and is. But I don't think it's any more a rule than anything else involving the Tarot or spirituality. I am, as always, open for debate, and this is nothing but my own thoughts! Light and love, Jenny :)

divinerguy	23 Aug 2002
I see the basis of some creativity as being biochemical in nature. Perhaps it is related tot he brain's emphasis on creativity or its deemphasis on things which interfere with creativity. I have read stories about teen age females who have suddenly developed psychic abilities. Hormonal, perhaps? Vincent Van Gogh suffered from mental illness his entire life, but had an incredible vision (remember the Starry Night paining?) http://www.cerca.umontreal.ca/~turcotte/Welcome_a.html Some of our greatest creative achievers have taken their own lives or have suffered mental illness. Poet Sylvia Plath, mathemetician John Nash, Kurt Cobain. And don't forget the idiot savant syndrome. Or all of this could just be a statistical probability of creativity within these groups. After all, there are lots of creative, intuitive people who are not suffering from mental illness. Ahh, in the end, nobody knows for certain, and its pretty unlikely that anyone ever will.

Liliana	23 Aug 2002
Ive been thinking lately about how masny people I know that do Tarot/ are Wiccans/ are into magick and religion in general seem to suffer mfrom depression. Im on many lists for Wiccans (more specifically for Christians who combine their beliefs with Wiccan ones) and a large number seem to be suffering from depression in some form or other, in different levels of severity Maybe its that the aware feel the hurt of the earth more, or maybe the hurt made them seek the path to begin with, Im not sure :THP

lunalafey	23 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Liliana Maybe its that the aware feel the hurt of the earth more, or maybe the hurt made them seek the path to begin with, Im not sure :THP anima mundi, comes to mind... I'm not on any of the "titled" paths mentioned, just my own that is very simular. I think you are on to something here. The only thing that can depress me is the damage being done to this planet and those that live upon it....and have(?) lived upon it, but throw in Past lives and we have the beauty we once knew OH so long ago, and get to compare it to today? ICK!!!!

Umbrae	23 Aug 2002
Some people search more than others. Some just swim through life, oblivious. Quote: Originally posted by Sullanciri2002 …will miss out on the depth of feeling and compassion that helps to link with something like the tarot… Makes no difference the amount of suffering a person does. They say there are no atheists in foxholes, but go check out the human condition (and suffering) in bars and street corners. Some people search more than others. Look at confirmed atheist WC Fields, who was seen on his deathbed reading the bible. Upon being asked as to why, he responded, “…Looking for a loophole…” Some people search, find a church and look no further. One or two hours a week of official religious services is enough. Throw in a hymn or two and they are ecstatic. Some people find that a church is not a building and continue to search. Does the endless quest for spiritual answers lead to mental suffering? Not necessarily. Many find peace. Many find it where you would least expect it… Religion does a great job of allowing folks to feel as though they are part of a group (identity). We go to church/synagogue/circle, once or twice a week (or month) and feel spiritual. Then we go back to our lives. Many who ‘feel’ they are spiritual, or 'walking the walk', are usually 'talking the walk', following fanatical (judgmental) behavior. Few understand the concept of allowing your actions to speak for you. Religion and Spiritual practice as commonly practiced does little to address the spiritual needs of the follower on a continual basis…how does the follower act on Thursday. How spiritual are they on Wednesday? There is no imperative to be spiritual on Thursday! When you go back, all can be forgiven! When a person chooses a path, one should examine the why behind their choice? Are they choosing a path for spiritual enlightenment? On the other hand, do they feel lonely, empty, and are looking for something to fill the void? Void filling is usually a denial aspect of a deeper spiritual need. The motive for seeking a path dictates how the person will partake in the path (both give and take). Remember, when the light bulb needs changing, the High Priestess will sit in the dark until you figure out that it is dark. In 78DoW, R. Pollack describes the western magic tradition of drawing a circle to protect you, as opposed to channeling the forces (pg 33, paragraph 2, mid-page). For many, the spiritual path (including Tarot as a meditative tool) is not enough. They remain spirtually empty. Many wiccians I have known are as spiritually empty as many christians. They have not learned the walk. They are seeking answers in the wrong places. Alcoholics Anonymous teaches that alcohol is not the issue. Take the drink away and they (alcoholics) fall apart. If Alcohol were the problem, their lives would improve. They are taught that it (alcoholism) is a symptom of a deeper cause, and the only permanent solution to the problem is a spiritual one; that walking the spiritual path and asking nothing of the path is the only answer. And here, there is an imperative...Drink and die-or walk the walk. It is a great lesson, but overlooked by most because of the Alcoholic label. Drink for thought…

lili	23 Aug 2002
Umbrae your words are very enlightening, it make me think about many issues surrounding spiritual practice and spiritual needs. Very good point.

zorya	23 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae [b] . The motive for seeking a path dictates how the person will partake in the path Anything to do with the 'suffering', shouldn't be the motive. Spiritual enlightenment is the only true choice. The 'path' will not give back that which has been lost. The path cannot change past sufferings. Putting on and taking off ones spiritual life is like a band-aid. Becoming a spiritual being, all the time, is the only answer.”

jema	24 Aug 2002
the original post made me wonder if perhaps we would be even better readers if we were not only capable of understanding suffering but also of understanding and experiencing deep felt joy. we live in a society that is depressed. a society where children are given prozac and theraphy and where suicide is one of the more common ways to die. our suffering is the focus. people talk more often about their feelings of self-doubt then of their feelings of pride in themselves. joy is a state of mind and we keep postponing it. we "work through our difficulties and weaknesses" but we hardly ever try to really enjoy Joy. sure we are told to "think positive" but that is seen as a sort of medicine to come to terms with our negative feelings, just as if negativity and suffering were the starting point in life. like they were the "norm" i find myself too many times to just ignore joy in the here and now by always just thinking back and being nostalgic or regretting things - or on the other hand to plan for how good things will be later on, after i have done this or that. i think we all suffer and feel the pain of life and how it (or we) failed to meet its expectations. i have a sticker on my front door saying: "Don't postpone joy" that sticker often made me stop and think and then walk out that door trying to find the beauty of it all - of life. too often our clients that we read for are stuck in this mindset of sufering and expecting problems and our job is to gently guid them towards that window where they might be able to see joy shining through. we ned to shift the focus. just some ideas and thoughts that this post made me come up with:)

All Is One	24 Aug 2002
It is not necessecarily related to anything specific, I certainly do not refer to any individuals or specific threads but reading Jema's post got the little hairs standing up along my neck... The tone of AT has been, seemingly, a bit less joyful. The sad and otherwise not quite celebratory threads outnumber the happy ones. This is not to say it is a bad thing- I think it is just now that I realized I could see a larger view and maybe it is only me...but I have read about "protecting AT" and such, and I think I'm seeing the point. Thanks, Jema, I definitely needed that.

Jenny-Li	24 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jema we live in a society that is depressed. a society where children are given prozac and theraphy and where suicide is one of the more common ways to die. our suffering is the focus. joy is a state of mind and we keep postponing it. we "work through our difficulties and weaknesses" but we hardly ever try to really enjoy Joy. sure we are told to "think positive" but that is seen as a sort of medicine to come to terms with our negative feelings, just as if negativity and suffering were the starting point in life. like they were the "norm" too often our clients that we read for are stuck in this mindset of sufering and expecting problems and our job is to gently guid them towards that window where they might be able to see joy shining through. we ned to shift the focus. Jema: Thank you. I think this was one of the best things I have read in a long, long time. You are so right! Huge hugs of praise and joy to you! (I am definitely going to print out your post and read it whenever I find myself starting to forgetting and postponing!) Light and love, Jenny :)

Umbrae	24 Aug 2002
Modern society has a bandwagon it has been parading about the streets for a few years. You are told, “You cannot truly feel. If you do, it’s off to psychotherapy. Too happy? Off you go to psychotherapy, the world is a dire place full of dire things for you to be so happy. Too sad? That is not right! Off you go to the Therapy (oh, and go to a Psychiatrist as opposed to a Psychologist, the former can prescribe drugs and not the latter). Angry? Oh, most definitely off you go to therapy. If you are enjoying your children - not enjoying your children, enough think about suicide – don’t think about suicide, mad at your spouse – not mad at your spouse…” We are human. We are supposed to feel…the whole range of emotions. Joy to sadness. All of it. Every piece of it. It is all part and parcel to the three-the three-fold gift of the Gods – Consciousness – Breath - Form. We are only human when flesh,- and when flesh, we feel. You share a piece with all other humans. You are like us. We are like us. Only by understanding the spirit of man, can you truly take part. To understand is to be a part of the family and enjoy the three-fold gift. To walk the spiritual walk, and feel as a human feels. To not understand, you cannot claim its rights, you cannot be ‘chosen’, and your workings will be twisted and undone. Yes, there should be joy in our feelings, and there should be feelings in our joy. It was once written: You are the light of the world…neither do they light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candle stick; and it gives light to all that are in the house. And: and when you pray, do not act as the hypocrite and pray in public, pray in your homes and closets… Walk the walk. Talk the talk, and allow yourself to feel… Or would you like a little pill? It will make it oh-so-easy…

Keslynn	24 Aug 2002
jema, that was so beautiful, and a much-needed reminder. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us. I, for one, am going to remember joy more often. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. :) Kes

isthmus nekoi	24 Aug 2002
I think the definition of 'suffering' itself is dicey. In my mind, there are two kinds: neurotic suffering and suffering. My favourite quote from Jung about the 2 different types of suffering go something like this: neurosis is a substitute for suffering. The first is the suffering in which you get *stuck* or trapped, either in a way of perceiving the world, or behaving, or in a situation. Usually those will corellate (sp!!) w/each other. I think it's a contemporary form of neurosis. We don't have people w/localized paralyzation any more, but we have ADD, anxiety disorders, postmodern malaise etc. The second type is constructive. It's the suffering that comes w/change and the suffering we see in the fool's journey: confronting the devil, destruction of the tower etc. I'm not sure if experience w/the latter would make you a better reader, but I think it would give you a deeper, more personal understanding of the majors. As for the former.... I think that health care and the social support network (in Can at least) is really heavily based upon the cognitive/behavioural school of psychology and biology. It's more cost effective but doesn't have a holistic approach to the psyche - the system is very focused on symptoms and not underlying disorders. Those who don't respond to this type of approach will be drawn elsewhere to find help for themselves. Perhaps tarot, Wicca, etc fill in the gaps in our social systems.

The suffering and tarot ? thread was originally posted on 23 Aug 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.