Tarot and Kabbalah

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Helruna	13 Aug 2002
First of all - welcome Tapestry! :) Very interesting discussions going on here. Your post about the connection between Tarot and Kabbalah has inspired me to write this post. I have been thinking about this connection for quite some time now, and I admit that I haven't worked with the Kabbalah that much yet. The liturature I have found so far was quite complicated to understand, and somehow I could never really get a grib on it. Therefore, I have delayed studies in this area. Lately, however, I feel myself drawn to this subject again, as I intend on learning and studying more about the Tarot - and Kabbalah seems to be an somewhat important related area as so often I have seen Tarot decks with kabbalistic symbols and content that has been more ore less "sealed" to me but that I want to learn more about know. My questions are: for all you tarotholics - how many of you do use the Kabbalah with Tarot and vice verse? Does having a good basic understanding of the Kabbalah really help in understanding more about the Tarot? I have been wondering how many actually really connect them both actively in some ways. I heard so much theory, and some scattered statements in books that I just got curious. BTW - what good books - besides the Qabalistic Tarot (? hope spelled it right) - do you think are good for this topic, or to gain more insight on the Kabbalah itself? Thanks for sharing. BB, Helruna

Liliana	14 Aug 2002
Im exactly like you Helruna, Ive always been interested in Qabala but anything past the very bare basics I just didnt get (biggest book that i didnt get, Dion Fortunes Mystical Qabala (or however she spelled it), oh and the HUGE Golden Dawn book, understood maybe 5 things in there lol) And like you I seem to be being led into studying Qabala now, books Ive been wanting are suddenly showing you rather cheap, and then while reading them I find ections of Qabala hehe. Of course mines a Christian Qabala perspective, not Jewish or Hermetic, but I really have no idea what the difference is anyway hehe :THP

Helruna	14 Aug 2002
LOL - well, seems that we got something in common! :D I have the Dion Fortune book - but boy, that is difficult stuff for me. I don't say its a "bad" book, the only problem is I have quite some difficulties understanding it. That's why I am looking for something like "Qabalah for Dummies", or something like that. Hmmm, I never really cared for Christian, Jewish or Hermetic - if you ask me what type of Qabalah are you interested in Christian, Jewish or Hermetic I'll be totally lost. Shame one me... However, I am determined to at least learn the basics, darn it! I have seen a book on Qabalah here at my English Army Bookstore, but it sold out before I had the money for it (only two copies in store, cheapies) "Magic of Qabalah" and it seemed to be quite comprehensive. I wonder, I heard that Witches Tarot by Ellen Cannon Reed features Qabalah and the book has basics on it too? But - LOL - I read the thread about the ugly Magician and the Devil panties... now I am a bit hesitant to get it... :D Well, I'll see. I am just curious if studying the Qabalah, at least the basics really would help me in understanding the Tarot... it seems that quite a few Tarot books and decks refer to the Qabalah - but the ones I got, like the Spiral - have nothing in the LWB, or just short notes in the books on it. I guess I just have to go and get me one or two books about the Qabalah then and see how it works out... BB, Helruna

Jenny-Li	14 Aug 2002
I can't agree with previous speakers, because I had no idea the Kabalah existed until I was already in over my head in the Tarot. I'm fascinated in anything that will make me able to dig deeper into Tarot and Sprituality, so Kabalah has its natural place very high on that list...! At the moment I know too little about it to really know what I'm talking about though...! Jenny :)

Helruna	14 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Jenny-Li I can't agree with previous speakers, because I had no idea the Kabalah existed until I was already in over my head in the Tarot. I'm fascinated in anything that will make me able to dig deeper into Tarot and Sprituality, so Kabalah has its natural place very high on that list...! At the moment I know too little about it to really know what I'm talking about though...! Jenny :) I think if you want to dig deeper into Spirituality, if not also into Tarot, the Kabalah should be something very interesting for you. I don't try to make it bad - it is a fascinating topic with good points and lots to learn from. It simply doesn't come easy to me learning it, that's all. Personally, I am impressed with the Kabalah and what you can learn and do with it, I am looking for a way to get a grib on it. I found out, as soon as I get that "click" with something, I can go further and dig deeper - but I have not really had that "click" with the Kabalah yet, also it keeps bugging me to learn more about it. That's all folks. :) I know we have a Qabalah study group here on Aeclectic, but I am a little "traditional" in some ways - I prefer to have a book that I can take out of the shelf and look through it whenever I want, without going online. I certainly will go to and have a look at the threads though. :D BB, Helruna

lupo138	14 Aug 2002
All of you, that have a little problems with Dion Fortune´s book - I feel with you. It took me three months to get through and it was tough work. Anyway, there is another book on that topic, that I am only half through with, but it is much more easy to deal with: Try "The Witches Qabala - The Pagan Path and the Tree of Life" by Ellen Cannon Reed ISBN 0-87728-880-1. It is really written in a plain language (I am not an english native speaker and do understand it quite well) and not just a little bit more "up to date". I would have liked to include a link how to order it via Aeclectic Tarot, so that they could take a benefit out of that. Unfortunately it does not work or I am too stupid. If anybody could post a link below, it would be fine. Thank you. Find your way through Malkuth well :)

Keslynn	14 Aug 2002
I just started getting into Kabbalah. I can't say I have deep knowledge of it, but the knowledge I do have has put new shadings on the meanings of the cards. I have found it rather helpful, if only for a new perspective. Ellen Cannon Reed's [/i]The Witches Qabalah[/i] was very good and straighforward though you will have to do some exploration work on your own. This book has good basics but does not spoon feed it to you. I'm working my way through her second book, The Witches Tarot right now. It seems so far to be pretty similar in tone to the other one though it covers different material. Another great book that really helped me a lot was Isabel Kliegman's Tarot and the Tree of Life. This book only covers the minors, but wow! It was great. Very in depth and conversational. She uses a lot of personal anecdotes so you'll know exactly what she's talking about. I highly recommend this one. She is a little biased on some of the cards, especially the Queen of Wands. However, she repeatedly points out that the reader needs to form his/her own opinion, and that she wants people to question what she says. I think it's great that she encourages her work as a jumping off point. I'm still pretty new to Kabbalah, but I do think it goes well with tarot. I find it fascinating. :TQS Kes

Laurel	14 Aug 2002
Its kind of eerie that this thread started. I'd made the decision in recent days to turn my "dream book" into reality, and to take all of my notes and slowly start writing my own book on kabbalah and the tarot. Well, more properly, a Book of Five Worlds- kabbalah, tarot, alchemy, astrology, and archetypal psychology. Something that helped explain how and why each of these topics function very well together and the ideas build on one another but that the correspondences aren't absolute. Same ideas, different frequencies. Used together, they can be one of the most affective life-building tools I know. I'm going to be starting to put kabbalistic tarot essays on the web come fall and would love to teach and share basic kabbalah with anyone who's interested, maybe in a study group. Before it starts sounding like I have a way big ego, there's a couple of Aeclectic people (JMD comes to mind *s*) who are even more experienced than myself with Kabbalistic tarot than myself, in my opinion. I feel like I am still learning so much on a personal basis, and as I start to move from research and practical application to writing and teaching, I think I'm going to be learning more than ever. That's one reason why its so exciting to start taking this step. Laurel

Helruna	14 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel I'm going to be starting to put kabbalistic tarot essays on the web come fall and would love to teach and share basic kabbalah with anyone who's interested, maybe in a study group. Laurel HEY! I am interested in such a study group. :D Do you want to put it here on the forum? I think I've seen already a study group on the Kabbalah here, but I am interested in further studies... :) BB, Helruna PS: if you ever publish that book - LET ME NOW, OK? :D I am interested in such a book if you think about publishing it...

Helruna	14 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Keslynn Ellen Cannon Reed's [/i] The Witches Qabalah [/i] was very good and straighforward though you will have to do some exploration work on your own. This book has good basics but does not spoon feed it to you. I'm working my way through her second book, The Witches Tarot right now. It seems so far to be pretty similar in tone to the other one though it covers different material. Another great book that really helped me a lot was Isabel Kliegman's Tarot and the Tree of Life . This book only covers the minors, but wow! It was great. Very in depth and conversational. :TQS Kes Hmmm, so the "Witches Qabalah" and "the Witches Tarot" are two separate books? Oooppps, I thought they're the same... :( My bad! Thank you for the suggestions. :) BB, Helruna

AmounrA	14 Aug 2002
I voted often due to the lack of a voting option 'always' :-)

Helruna	14 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by AmounrA I voted often due to the lack of a voting option 'always' :-) LOL - ooops, I knew I forgot something... sorry about that... my bad. BB, Helruna

Thirteen	14 Aug 2002
No one's mentioned Wang's "Qabalistic Tarot" which is both a very clear and informative book. It discusses not just the Qabala and its connections to the cards, but also how major tarot creators viewed the cards as well (i.e., you not only get a discussion of the Magician and it's place on the tree, but also Waite's take, Crowley's, etc.). As for Qabala--Qabala is that step you take when you really want to immerse yourself in the tarot, when it is becoming a spiritual path, not just a mode of self-discovery or "fortune telling." So when you ask, "does it help"--help how? It rather like opening a whole new door to the tarot that you didn't even know was there before. The use of tarot as a way of lifting the spirit up to higher levels of esoteric knowledge, spirituality and magic. I've known some folk who, once they got into Qabala, found they couldn't go back to just plain ole' reading the cards. As for me, when I first encounted the Qabala, I hadn't heard of it and had NO idea what it was all about. It took me a while to realize that it was a spiritual belief system. And certain things have to be, well, taken for granted to understand it. For example, that there are levels to reality/spirituality. It has most certainly expanded my understanding of the tarot because it is at the root of the most used decks (Thoth and RW). But I do sometimes have a little difficulty with certain Biblical assumptions--of what is male/female, for example. Maybe time to try the Witches Qabala?

Jewel	14 Aug 2002
Well I voted 'sometimes' as it just simply depends on what deck I am using and for what I am using it for. I agree whole heartedly with Thirteen's post. Once I got into the Qabalistic aspects of the Tarot, my interest in Tarot as a whole has become much more spiritual and presonal development oriented. I have found the study of Tarot and Qabalah to be very rewarding, although I still feel like I know next to nothing *LOL*. Although it has been a few years I have read both Wang's and Ellen Cannon Reeds books, and enjoyed them both. Guess it is time I dust off the cobwebs and refresh my memory. My dream is to study multiple decks that openly incorporate or were designed with Qabalistic concepts and compare and contrast the choices made by the deck creators. Not all decks use the same associations. I would like to write this in such a manner that when people read it they can understand what I am trying to say and perhaps contribute to generating some interest in the subject by those who at one time might have been intimidated by complex writtings. Perhaps one day I will have the time to pursue this. By the way, there is a study group in the General Study Group Forum that is focused on the Qabalah, you might want to check it out!

Jeannette	15 Aug 2002
Although admittedly somewhat difficult and even a bit archaeic (sp?), I have to place my vote for Fortune's Mystical Qabalah as my favorite source book on the subject. Robert Wang's Qabalistic Tarot ranks alongside Fortune's book IMHO as the best resource material on the subject for tarot enthusiasts, but I don't think I would have gotten near as much out of Wang's book if I hadn't tackled Fortune's first. The biggest problem I see with Fortune's book is the fact that it was written some seventy years ago, and contains a fair amount of out-of-date commentary about British society of the time. Those references and associations don't really make much sense to today's reader. Also, although Fortune had split from the Golden Dawn by the time she penned Mystical Qabalah, she still apparently felt the need to abide by her original oaths of secrecy when approaching some topics. It's a shame, really, because I find Fortune to be an excellent overall writer on esoteric topics, and I think she could have been so much clearer if she'd abandoned all of the "hinting around," and had just spoken plainly about what she knew, when discussing some of the "larger issues" of initiation. In any case, I'll admit that on the first read-through, it would probably be generous to say that even half of what she said "sunk in" for me. Nevertheless, there was enough of a connection that I was drawn to explore the subject further. I read Fortune's book at least five times before I felt I had a decent, basic grasp of the subject matter, but each time I read it, I delighted in finding something "new." Ever since, I've personally found most modern texts on the subject to be sorely lacking in many ways -- I really don't think most writers manage to capture both the essence and the beauty of Hermetic Qabalism the way Fortune does. Some of the books I've read are just plain shallow. A few even seemed mostly interested in discussing how "enlightened" the author was, and were not really concerned with giving the reader any real idea of what Qabalah is all about. In all fairness, I suppose it ought to be mentioned that some folks find the connection between tarot and Qabalah to be "forced." And I certainly don't personally buy into the theory that the two systems were developed simultaneously, with tarot being specifically designed to express Qabalistic concepts. However, since both systems strive to capture the archetypical essence of the universe, I don't think it's unreasonable to seek and find isomorphic correspondences between the two. Some systems of correspondences may be better than others, but I think that it's possible to use one system to effectively "ground" the other. My personal view of tarot will always be Qabalistically based, largely for that reason. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com __________________________ "True spirituality never advertises itself." -- Dion Fortune, The Mystical Qabalah

jmd	15 Aug 2002
I didn't vote, as I just couldn't decide which of the first three most clearly reflected my views... Before I explain, I'll briefly mention that you may be interested in reading this thread in Tarot Books, and also visiting the Qabalah threads in the General Study Forums. You may also be interested in visiting Mark Filipas's site, who makes, from my perspective, one of the most recent significant contributions to the investigation of Tarot's early phase. On the one hand, I have a definite keen interest in Kabbalah, independent of Tarot. As with any esoteric interest, one's general understanding and insight (hopefully) deepens, which inevitably deepens one's understanding and usage, in turn, of Tarot. I have also, at various times, utilised in reasonable depth Golden Dawn type associations. With that type of approach, the two are so entwined that to talk of one is to talk of the other: the High Priestess is Gimel which crosses the abyss linking the Crown to the Sun - and conversely, Beauty can only be raised towards the sublime state of the unmoved mover through reflecting (Moon) the spiritual Law (Torah). In addition, I have also worked with continental associations between Tarot and Kabbalah which differ from that of the Golden Dawn - and which also yields depths of insights. On the other hand, to be sure, I also hold both the Tarot and Kabbalah as independent beings - as I do Astrology, the I Ching, &c.. What relationship, then, do I tend to behold between these two systems: I tend to make my own main correspondences, as I have outlined in another thread (which I'll have to locate), and tend to not associate any letters with the cards - except that Alef certainly appears to have a deep connection with I - the Magician (which the Golden Dawn prefers to connect to the Fool), and that Shin appears also intimately connected to the Fool (which the Golden Dawn prefers to connect to XX - Judgement). We are all, of course, co-learners and teachers, and our shared insights is what adds to the many diverse depths of Being.

Alex	16 Aug 2002
from a tradition where the Qabalah is part of, I cannot see how the study of the Qabalah can be of help understanding the Tarot. You end up having to learn the Qabalah AND the Tarot together, and it may take several years until a deeper understanding of both can be achieved. The people my generation, when I was in my late teens, liked to read philosophy books in the original language, what many times meant having to read Schoppenhauer in German, Piaget in French etc. What most of us didn't get at the time is that we didn't master German or French enough to make a difference, when compared to reading a good translation. But it helped me to learn the basics of some languages. It's interesting to read about the Qabalah and it's connection with the Tarot, but I don't really "get" much out of it. The same with associating suits with the 4 elements. Cups = water is a beautiful association, but I'm from a cultural tradition in which water = H20, it's a universal solvent, evaporates at 100 degrees celcius and at best, is something I drink when I'm tursty. LEARNING about the associations the ancient people made between water and feelings or fluidity etc is interesting but franky it does not make it easier for me to understand the Tarot. It's one more piece lf knowledge to digest and incorporate, not an aid to my understanding.

Jeannette	16 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Alex ...from a tradition where the Qabalah is part of, I cannot see how the study of the Qabalah can be of help understanding the Tarot. You end up having to learn the Qabalah AND the Tarot together, and it may take several years until a deeper understanding of both can be achieved. So, Alex -- what's your hurry? I seem to recall reading somewhere that Thomas Edision once said: "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work" }) Gentle gibes aside, your analogy about reading philosophy books in the original language is well-taken. But for me, having started my tarot and qabalah studies at about the same time, I'm feeling pretty much "bi-lingual" in the subject matter (not adept, but at least equally comfortable with both). Sort of like children who are brought up from birth in households where two languages are spoken. It makes sense that you might not "get" much out of the tarot-qabalah connection. If there's one thing that (Hermetic) Qabalism teaches us, it's that there are many paths to understanding, and that not all paths are equally well-suited to all temperments. I assume you've found some other approach to tarot that works for you. If so, what more can one ask? :D -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Alex	16 Aug 2002
a bit more on the side. I don't know latin but it's obviously part of my language. I'm Christian and I know very little of Judaism but it is part of my religion...and so forth. If you tried to make that point, I'm with you. But it does not change the core of my argumentation. You can go for both, learn it as a system and have both illuminating each other. However, I personally_ see, tthat's a very personal oppinion_ think that it would make things easier for most readers AND clients if we tried to understand the Tarot within the context of a "discipline" or a "system" that is more pervaiding in our society. Psychoanalysis, for example may suit the job well. It's a longer argument than I'm trying to make it here and I apologize for my simplicity, what may be hiding important points. But it's all I can do within the time I have to come online and post a comment.

Jeannette	16 Aug 2002
Alex: I hope I didn't offend with my joke about "what's your hurry?". I just found some humor in the surface incongruity between your comment about the tarot/qabalah connection requiring several years of study, and your signature quote from Thomas Edision. But I do realize that at true, "deeper" level, a juxtaposition of the two statements is really an apples-and-oranges thing... The achievement of a real mutual understanding of viewpoints on this subject would certainly require a more at-length discussion. But I do think I take your general meaning, and I don't disagree with it. As I said, my personal viewpoint is that one of Qabalah's greatest lessons is that there are many workable paths to understanding and enlightment. And your observation that psychoanalysis (as an example) might make a better "foundation for understanding" for most students -- at least, the ones who come from Western industrialized socieites -- may be correct. Although personally speaking, for reasons I won't go into (because it would make this post way too lengthy), I find psychoanalytical concepts to provide a very poor foundation for my own esoteric studies... even though I have a degree is in psychology! While I think that Qabalistic studies can very effectively compliment tarot studies, and vice-versa, I also concede that it does require both a high degree of discipline and the "right temperment." Dion Fortune states as much in The Mystical Qabalah. While I wouldn't encourage anyone to reject Qabalah as a possible foundation for their tarot studies out-of-hand, neither would I promote it over all other possible systems as the best for any given individual. For some, the effort spent in mastering Qabalah will yield great rewards. For others, it should probably be clear pretty quickly that pursuing such studies would be a waste of time -- time that would better spent in studies more complimentary to their personal backgrounds and outlook. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Alex	16 Aug 2002
No, absolutely not. I may sound very serious when I'm discussing a point but it's just that I'm trying hard to make myself understood. Quote: Originally posted by Jeannette and/or Lori Alex: I hope I didn't offend with my joke about "what's your hurry?".

Thirteen	16 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Alex think that it would make things easier for most readers AND clients if we tried to understand the Tarot within the context of a "discipline" or a "system" that is more pervaiding in our society. Psychoanalysis, for example may suit the job well. That's certainly your priviledge. But I'm not sure you're getting your point across well, because this argument makes no sense to me. To go to the root of something is to understand it in a way you did not before--perhaps not in a way that matters to you, personally, but there are things that come very clear indeed. To read Hamlet is to understand how certain phrases became common to our language and what they really mean; and how I would love for many a Christian to read a well translated Bible (from the original Hebrew) and NOT the King James (Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English during the time of King James) which is a pretty poor and bias translation and has led to all kinds of misunderstandings (like Moses having "horns"--no, they were "rays of light."--and that part about a "virgin birth"--the original word can mean, simply, "young maiden," not just "virgin"). Just because someone comes out with version of something that is more prevaling to the society doesn't mean that it's in anyway a good or better version than the original. As many a movie adaptation has proved. In many ways, such alterations lose richness, power, magic, and, yes, real meaning. This is not to say that everything must be read in its original language, or every historical thread examined. But it is to say that I don't understand how you can argue that there is little to nothing to be learned from exploring the symbols and ideas used to create the original decks upon which 95% of all other decks are based--the same decks YOU are going to be using to "psycholanalyze" your clients. Do you really think that, or am I reading this wrong?

lupo138	17 Aug 2002
hmmm, a fine discussion here 8) please let me add some points: 1) I understood Alex the way that one should try to relate Tarot to more "earthbound" or contemporary systems in order to enhance understanding. If this is the way he wants to deal with it, I think it is pretty ok. 2) Of course one can work with the Tarot as such without spending a single second with Qabala. Anyway I agree with Thirteen, that Qabala is so obviously one of the sources that Tarot was nourished from, that I do not think it could be of any disadvantage to spend some time with it. 3) Alex, if I got you right, you mean that it would be best if we always try to go to the foundation of a system or teaching, including it´s language. I am living in the town where Sigmund Freud was born and his mother tongue is mine. IMHO you would get a total different understanding of psychoanalysis when you did so, too. It is not at least the fact that Vienna was is and I think will be the town where most people commit suicide in western europe, being surpassed only by Budapest if you look on the whole continent - and Budapest was the other capital of the same "Reich" (the austrian-hungarian one, not to be mixed up with the german one). So in my understanding psychoanalysis was meant as a´discipline to simply survive and escape "number thirteen" that is so charmingly inviting you here into his realms. Anyway , your system of psychoanalysis works, even without sticking to Freud´s sometimes rather obscure dream-analyis, oops, nearly typed -divination. So I do not think that one has always to go absolutely to the primal source, as the sources that came then, could be of more importance, so you would have to learn their language, and their cultural background and surroundings as well. What I am trying to say is this: If one has time and energy to track something back to it´s absolute origin, let us call it Kether ;) this is a wonderful thing. If one is not able to do so, and this will be the case in 99%, one will gain profit from lower stages (We could call them Malkuth or Yesod) as well. There is no ultimate perfect thing or knowledge, not in this world that we are living in. So why not simply enjoying all of the knowledge you can get, without being full of fear, that it won´t be enough ? It never will be :) 4) To Thirteen: Are you sure there is a translation that made a step from ancient greek to latin (regarding the old testament - the new testament was actually written in ancient greek, not in hebrew). And if so - why did they do so ? one last thought: Could it be that translation of Moses as"the one with the hornes" (do you know the statue by Michelangelo ;) ?) was not merely by misunderstanding - but on purpose, to have a "good" deity with horns as well ?

Keslynn	17 Aug 2002
History nerd note: the King James Bible was translated from the original Hebrew and Greek. James was king at the time when the Puritans were near their peak of power, and they very strongly supported a Bible that was as close to the original texts as possible yet could be read by the masses (in Enlgish). A lot of times, at least in the New Testament, the English phrasing in the KJ version actually comes closer to the Greek sentence structure than more modern translations. I don't know how it does in translating the Old Testament Hebrew, but it's probably not too bad. Here's a link about the history of the King James Bible (for anyone who's a total dork like me): http://www.av1611.org/kjv/kjvhist.html :) Kes

lupo138	17 Aug 2002
dear kes , unfortunately the link that you posted does not work for me - could you please check it ? thx

Supletion	17 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by lupo138 one last thought: Could it be that translation of Moses as"the one with the hornes" (do you know the statue by Michelangelo ;) ?) was not merely by misunderstanding - but on purpose, to have a "good" deity with horns as well ? that is very unlikely, the source of this error is very understandable. in hebrew, the word "horn" and the word "ray" are the exact same word ("keren"). the verb coming out of this word ("karan") refers to the ray meaning and not to the horn meaning, but anyone who doesnt know hebrew that well could easily make that mistake. the original sentence, "karan or panav", verbally means "the skin of his face glowed".

Keslynn	17 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by lupo138 dear kes , unfortunately the link that you posted does not work for me - could you please check it ? thx Hey lupo, I checked by clicking on the link and it worked fine. I don't understand what the problem could be. Anyone else not able to get to the webpage? :) Kes

Ravenswing	18 Aug 2002
along with fortunes 'mystical qabala' and wang's 'qabalistic tarot', there are three brief but concise books i'd like to suggest. the first is 'elements of the qabalah' by will parfitt. this is a short (a little over 100 pages) book. it gives an overview of the qabalah without connecting it to the tarot. it will give you a good grounding with which to start comparing the two systems. the second is 'ladder of lights' by wm. grey. this book is structured like fortune's, so comparison are easy to make. the third is 'experiencing the kabbalah' by chic and sandra cicero. this pair now 'runs' the neo-golden dawn. there is a section called 'the tree walk'; it is a play in which the audience is introduced to the tree as persons. i would read this book one last. to anyone having trouble with fortune's book: if you pm me or e-mail me at stevepolsz@aol.com with the particular chapter and verse that you are having difficulty with, i'll try to clear things up. sitting in my own tree of life raven swollowtail

Jeannette	18 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Ravenswing to anyone having trouble with fortune's book: if you pm me or e-mail me at stevepolsz@aol.com with the particular chapter and verse that you are having difficulty with, i'll try to clear things up Ravenswing: Oh, Lordy! Now I'm going to have to go pull out my Mystical Qabalah book for yet another reread, so I can take you up on your offer. There's still plenty of areas where I could use some assistance, but of course, when I need to remember what they are, I can't! When I can find time for another reread, you'll be hearing from me. Thanks! -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

lupo138	18 Aug 2002
Dear Kes, the link indeed does work (and is very interesting, too) - yesterday it did not, I do not know for what reason, but I think it was my server´s fault. Sorry for the inconvenience, Lupo

renard	18 Aug 2002
Dear Helruna: Okay, boomeranging back to your first post and the quest for basic knowledge. I could have sworn I'd seen a book like this at the bookstore -- they've got Zen Buddhism for Dummies and Sufi Wisdom for Dummies, and some of the titles are really okay, so why not? -- but a quick search on Amazon didn't turn it up. (The spelling above produced the most titles, I found.) Since I subscribe to the Amazondotcom/trip-to-the-library school of knowledge, I'm totally in sympathy with your search for The Right Book on a subject you're hot on. Of course, that's *so* Kabbalah! The intersection of pictorial, imagistic thinking and passion for the word is one of the things that I think makes tarot, and the wonderful Tarot Forum, so intensely cool. And so continuously interesting. Namaste!

Thirteen	19 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Keslynn History nerd note: the King James Bible was translated from the original Hebrew and Greek. James was king at the time when the Puritans were near their peak of power, and they very strongly supported a Bible that was as close to the original texts as possible yet could be read by the masses (in Enlgish). True--but they were hardly unbias (and this relates as much to conscious as unconscious changes--like which word to choose if the translation is ambiguous? Go with your bias). Remember that quote: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"? Old Testament. Real quote: "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live." Why the change? Because King James was obsessed with witches, rabidly so, terrified of them and started up witch persecutions as a consequence--those same persucutions that the Puritans would continue on and on and on up through the Salem witch trials. So when it came to that line--and the translation was a wee-bit ambigouous--hey, the bias was for "witches." Same with the "maiden" quote. Why pick "virgin" rather than maiden? Because if you translate the Hebrew in this OLD TESTAMENT prediction that way you lose that virgin birth. And which Puritan is going to say to King James, "Sorry your Majesty, it just wasn't accurate. I know you and everyone else has always believed it was a virgin birth, but wouldn't you rather have it accurate than what you passonately and righteously and biasly believe? I know it's not going to work anymore with the new testament but....Burned at the stake? No, I don't think I'd like that....yes, I'll change it back right away...."

Alex	20 Aug 2002
I recon I have missed some of the discussion here (just too busy) but to summarize my point (which I may not have laid down very well) that's the core of what I think about the mattter: 1. I DO think it would be best if we always try to go to the foundation of a system or teaching, including it´s language; 2. I am aware, however, that it's not always possible. See, half of my grandparents were born in Vien, the other half in Bohn. German was the first language I ever spoke. I attended a German school while growing up in a tropical country (and a Portuguese speaking school during the years my parents spent in Germany) (!). Yet your comments still apply to me as to not being fully acquainted with the culture and language that generated the disciplin I happened to mention (psychoanalysis). I'm not an expert in it, by the way. It just comes easier to me to understand and communicate the meanings of the cards and the way people react to them in terms of that disciplin. It has been largely incorporated in daily language, it is not tied to any religious belief system, and most people have had at least one basic psy course in their education. 3. I'm not against people studying the Kabbalah and the Tarot and the way both are related and I am supportive of people who do so. However, I don't think it's not for "everyone". Mostly for the ones who have not been innitiated in the Kabbalah, and who have never known anyone who's been, it may be just too difficult of a subject, deemed to stay on the surface of one's understanding. Remember, the Kabbalah isn't for "everyone": you must be at least 40 years of age, married and a male, in order to be innitiated ;-) 4. Someone once said that "worse than complete ignorance is the accumulation of ill-digested knowledge". People can approach the cards from perspectives that better suit their culture and education background. Some don't have any education background and are terrific readers. However, if you are to approach a disciplin or system as an aid to your understanding of the cards, you ought to take it seriously, and the most distant that system is from your own culture, the more I'll doubt you will have an understanding of if [b]from inside [b/]. [b] Alex, if I got you right, you mean that it would be best if we always try to go to the foundation of a system or teaching, including it´s language. I am living in the town where Sigmund Freud was born and his mother tongue is mine. IMHO you would get a total different understanding of psychoanalysis when you did so, too. It is not at least the fact that Vienna was is and I think will be the town where most people commit suicide in western europe, being surpassed only by Budapest if you look on the whole continent - and Budapest was the other capital of the same "Reich" (the austrian-hungarian one, not to be mixed up with the german one) [b/]

Thirteen	20 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Alex [b] 4. Someone once said that "worse than complete ignorance is the accumulation of ill-digested knowledge". People can approach the cards from perspectives that better suit their culture and education background. Some don't have any education background and are terrific readers. However, if you are to approach a disciplin or system as an aid to your understanding of the cards, you ought to take it seriously, and the most distant that system is from your own culture, the more I'll doubt you will have an understanding of if from inside [b/] . I'm fine with most of what you said. Certainly the Kabbalah is not for everyone, and it certainly isn't necessary for everyone to know it in order to read the cards well. If you want to explore it, fine, if you don't, fine, if it helps when you do explore it, fine, if it didn't, fine again. No problem. As for the above, however, I have a real problem with it. Yes, people are distant from their own systems and cultures. But that makes it ALL THE MORE important for them to give other cultures and systems a try if they've got the courage and willingness to do it. After 911, the most impressive thing I saw was that sales on books about Islam and the Koran went up. People, apparently--average people, not highly educated people--had decided not to condemn what wasn't a part of their "system and culture," but to try and understand this other culture and system. And there were far less hate crimes than expected because of this attempt. It is ONLY though exploring other cultures and systems that we expand and enrich ourselves, that we open our minds, and that we rid ourselves, as much as we can, of prejudices. Staying locked in that system, because it's what you know, its comfortable, or you feel you just don't have the education to even try to take a peek into another--keeps a person locked in a very small, very dark box indeed. And even if something cannot be "fully digested"--it's enough that someone gave it a taste, rather than refusing to try it for fear that it might not be what they're used to. And that's my humble opinion on the subject.

Jeannette	20 Aug 2002
That was very eloquently stated Thirteen -- bravo. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Alex	20 Aug 2002
By no means have I advocated remaining locked within one's own culture and taking no interest in other's. Learning ABOUT other cultures and belief systems is both valid and necessary. I dare to say however that we will still lack the understading *from inside* I was talking about. Moroever, many people go about learning *in order to* discriminate. Knowledge is but knowledge and, like a sword, it can be used to cut both ways. Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen After 911, the most impressive thing I saw was that sales on books about Islam and the Koran went up. People, apparently--average people, not highly educated people--had decided not to condemn what wasn't a part of their "system and culture," but to try and understand this other culture and system. And there were far less hate crimes than expected because of this attempt.

lupo138	21 Aug 2002
well, I was away for two days, but now I would like to add a little quotation, that says a lot about the relationship between Austria with it´s capital Wien and Germany with it´s former capital Bonn. (The average Austrian would feel deeply insulted, if named a German.) ;) It is by Karl Kraus, an (in Austria very famous) author from the beginning of the last century: "It is the common language, that separates the Austrian people from the German people."

Alex	21 Aug 2002
I have a neurological problem called dyslexia. I can't remember how to spell certain words unless I'm using a spell checker, and mine at the moment does not account for all words that come to my mind. Hope no one will use that to feel offended.

AmounrA	21 Aug 2002
"After 911, the most impressive thing I saw was that sales on books about Islam and the Koran went up. People, apparently--average people, not highly educated people--had decided not to condemn what wasn't a part of their "system and culture," but to try and understand this other culture and system.".......reminds of that saying 'learn your enemy'. ;-) One thing about the Koran, is that is does not work in translation. To really get the most out of it you really would have to learn arabic. The king james bible is another book which is an appalling translation.....whose this 'god' it keeps going on about ? I think the original bible can be traced back to sumurian tablets, which go deeper into some of the older stories'fables' contained in the hebrew version [which is not the first language for the bible] The qabala is like this to an extent also, if you want to investigate the gematra angle you really have to learn hebrew. You can easily learn the tree of life and its meanings and posibilites without learning hebrew. The tree of life is a living symbol open to evolution, it is no longer a jewish system alone, indeed it works equally well with all cultures and learning, be it tibetian buddism , western occult or voudoun.....pychology or physics. All that is basically required is a belief in 'bigger' players out there....a belief that more is going on than is conventionally reconised ....and the Tarot are a living embodiment of that:-)

lupo138	22 Aug 2002
I am sorry, of course I could not know that. And of course it will not make any difference in discussion between us.

raeanne	22 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by AmounrA [b...one thing about the koran, is that is does not work in translation. to really get the most out of it you really would have to learn arabic....[/b] Could you please explain what you mean by this? What doesn't work? I can understand that maybe some of the poetry or balance might not show up in a translation but the meaning certainly should be able to be translated into any language. Now if there is a hidden code or something like that, then I could also see that that wouldn't translate directly but it could still be explained in a different language. Please, give an example because I really want to understand why people say this about the Koran.

AmounrA	22 Aug 2002
The most simple reason is this..regarless of its religous appeal, the koran is regarded as the finest example of Arabic prose ever wrtten, therefore, clearly reading it in original arabic would be the most rewarding...much of the power of the Koran is lost in translation. It should be noted with respect that most Muslims think the Koran is untranslatable and therefore should not be translated. Language can not really be translated directly, the translater would have a choice of words which can basically mean the original foreign word, but they would often lack some charm, poetic or meaning, other times there is no word. I f I got fifty of the worlds best translaters to translate the Koran..I asure you, I would get fifty different versions. Of course , I am not saying it should not be read, all I am saying is that reading a tranlation will not give you a true feeling for what the Koran really is, and the flow of the original language. Its like say, the work 'the ancient mariner' or 'Kubla khan'. by Samuel Coleridge, they where written to be read in english, and no translation can ever live up to that original flow and use of words and word play.

raeanne	22 Aug 2002
AmounrA, I agree with your statement that "the Koran is regarded as the finest example of Arabic prose ever written", but I don't see why this would equate with your next statement that "much of the power of the Koran is lost in translation". I would say that someone could probably translate the Koran (or anything else) in a very bad way that would ruin the beauty but I don’t think this is an absolute result of all translations. As I said, the poetry and balance might be lost but that doesn’t equate to losing all the power of the meaning. Yes, if you have 50 people you will get 50 translations. If you have 100 people you will get 100 translations. There is always the possibility that the original text might say something like “It rained in the desert” and a translation might say “The sky blossomed and the petals of moisture fell to the Earth”. So, the translation might be more poetic than the original. (Please don't hold me to this poor poetic example! Ha, ha, ha.) Why can’t this happen? It seems to me that the Koran should be able to be translated into any language and maintain all (or at least most of) it’s power. (Maybe this is where we differ because to me "power" is something vastly different than poetic or linguistic beauty.) So, have you read the Koran? If so, did you read it in English, Arabic or both?

AmounrA	22 Aug 2002
quote"So, have you read the Koran? If so, did you read it in English, Arabic or both?" ------ I read it in English and found it very dull, but I don't therefore think the ' real' koran is such. In a sense the question of 'realness' is the heart of the issue. The koran is regarded as a holy book, written by the prophet, and there fore a translation becomes the work of the translater, the translaters interpritations of the words, and the link to the originater becomes more distant. I could probably go through a book in english and change somewords to others, still in english. If I did this to a book by blake, would you consider it inferior to the original blake version? quote--"(Maybe this is where we differ because to me "power" is something vastly different than poetic or linguistic beauty.)" The type of power I am talking about would be [for example] the type of rush that comes over you , as the final sequence of '2001' gets underway, not power in the more shallow arenas [not george bush power:-)]

raeanne	23 Aug 2002
AmounrA, Thank you for a very enjoyable discussion! This has been fun. Since we have drifted from the original subject of Kabbalah and Tarot, I suppose I should either get back to the main topic or start a new thread. But, it is interesting to ponder whether or not a translation can be as powerful or as inspirational as the original. I guess I really believe that a translation can be as powerful. I have heard from other sources that the Koran can't be translated and I just haven’t been convinced yet. I read the Koran in English back many, many years ago. After making friends with some of the Arab students while I was in college, I learned some of the language and read the Koran in Arabic. To be honest, I couldn’t really tell much difference. Granted, Arabic wasn’t my native language so someone could probably argue that I was doing my own translating. Who knows?

AmounrA	23 Aug 2002
Raeanne, One way we could get this back on topic, would be to consider that every tarot deck since the first has been a translation. The roots of tarot are shrouded in the fog of time, but the oldest surviving is likley to be a deck made for charlesVI of France [1392]. are all subsequent decks to be translations? I would be of the opinion that they are, and that some decks have supassed the original 'seed'. Of course these are visual translations , not written. Some decks have been translated for pagans useage,wicca.. some for masonic, golden dawn..etc..etc...each of these 'branches' has there own viewpoint and mythology, but on the whole the tarot can be translated into there reality tunnels. So I wonder if the qaballa was present in the seed?, or has it come in with translation?...and if it has, does that take away from the magick between qaballa and Tarot?

The Tarot and Kabbalah thread was originally posted on 13 Aug 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.