I wanted to share this with you...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Sep 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

David River	15 Sep 2002
In the forum on my own website someone asked the question "Is the tarot real?" I wanted to share my response as I think some of you might get something from it. Please comment if you like. My response was this... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hmmm... Dont know why I would base a web-site and do readings for people if I didnt believe. Believe is not quite the word. Faith. I have faith. Interestingly the tarot can be used for both good and bad much like everything else in the world. Unfortunately most people only hear bad things (Miss Cleo for instance) and that puts a bad spin on peoples concepts of the tarot. Hopefully you have noticed from the site if you have done a little reading that I have combined the tarot with my own personal faith. What I am trying to do with the tarot is show that it is something very personal and you can learn quite a lot about yourself and your spirit should you decide to use it seriously. Seriousness is very important when using the tarot or practicing any form of spirituality. What I find amusing is that some people just take what they've heard and use it as fact. Never exploring for themselves. Unfortunately this attitude is very limiting and is actually a block against finding true awareness. I think rather then questioning the tarot itself perhaps you should question peoples intentions...Ask yourself this before asking about the tarot... Do you ever question a preachers intent to instill fear of Life by using guilt? Do you believe that Life would really want us loving out of guilt? Have you ever studied what the cross and pentacle actually stand for? Have you ever read Shakespeare, Chaucer, or any other pieces of important literature and asked yourself what are the symbols they are using and why? Why do so many "important and well-known" writers use pagan symbolism so blatantly? Do you know what the "christmas tree" actually represents and where it comes from? Have you ever questioned why when celebrating Easter we use colored Easter eggs? For that matter why is it called "East"er? Have you ever opened up your mind enough to explore other religions such as Jehovah's Witnesses or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? or others? What would be the benefit of such exploring? Have you ever studied philosophy enough to understand where your current counting system comes from? How did it develop and what link does it have to spirituality? These are some important questions you might want to find an answer to before asking something like is the tarot real? What you will find is that Life and Reality are only limited by your concepts and that the more you experience and learn the broader your life and world will be. Another thing to think about is that the tarot has been around longer then a good deal of religions. Do you ask if those religions are real? What Im trying to say here is that it is good that you have questions but dont be so closed minded. There are things in this life that I nor anyone else can explain, and there are also experiences that people have had that confirm the unexplainable. Knowledge and Wisdom are a major key to life and we are only limited by our own personal understanding. Understanding. (I chose that word for a reason.) Thanks for your question. David River

Kiama	15 Sep 2002
Thanks for posting that David! It's proved very interesting.. One thing that annoys me about people who ask those questions, is that they aren't very specific. 'Is Tarot real?' could pertain to how it works, IF it works, or if it actually exists! And of course, unfortunately, when someboy asks a question like that, there is nothing we can say to change their minds, unless they're open for change. Just as we cannot prove that we even exist, we cannot prove to the sceptic that the Tarot works. :( Kiama

Laurel	15 Sep 2002
I'll agree with Kiama; very vague questions like that are really hard to answer. Usually I say to someone "Can you be a little more specific by what you mean?" But I think your response was poetric and visionary; I'm going to put it in my journal to savor later. :) Laurel

MystiqueMoonlight	15 Sep 2002
I usually find those people who ask "Is the Tarot real?" usually want me to do a reading for them and more often will return time and again for regular readings :)

Mojo	16 Sep 2002
David I can't help but feel that your posting here is intended solely to get Aeclectic people interested in joining your forum. In which case, it's best just to come in here, introduce yourself and your website and invite people to join. This Q&A really comes across as staged which would lead me to question your veracity. As such, it kept me from wanting to join your forum. No offense, but I always prefer the direct, up-front method of communication. Good luck with the site. It looks like a good start and I like the style.

David River	16 Sep 2002
Unfortunately you couldn't be more wrong. If you take notice I posted quite a few posts the same day as I posted this one. My website is enjoying its 3rd year, so Im not really new, and as I take very seriously not having ads on my own site, I certainly would not do that to another site. Im very sorry if you feel that way, but the question was posed on my own forum and I felt that the response I gave would be interesting here as this is where quite a lot of people post who are interested in the tarot. If people come to my site so be it, if not so be it. Basically as Ive stated in some of my other posts here... Things come by you in life because they were meant to. I will talk to the people Im supposed to and people will find there way to where they need to be because life will guide them there. Believe me. My mission is to enjoy a community in which quite a lot of people are involved. I really believe this post here earlier makes quite a few valid points that others can use. Its a shame your trying to limit others views and available sources. Thats really what I would question. Sorry you feel that way but you couldnt be more wrong. I will continue to post my comments here whether you are in agreement or not. By the way...thanks for making me feel so unwelcomed when Ive only got a chance to post about 10 times. I found this quote on your own site... "I value honesty above all else when dealing with other people". My question is this...and I only mean this as a reflection... How can you value honesty when you dont even recognize it? As you can see I am offended and unjustly accused. Perhaps you really should read through some of my own site. I think you will get a better feel for who I am and what I stand for. I really feel offended. Its almost as though you just wanted to put me on the defensive. I guess if I was not truly open your attack would not have worked. I think that says it all. I THINK A POSTED APOLOGY IS IN ORDER. David River

Diana	16 Sep 2002
edited

Jewel	16 Sep 2002
Thanks for the post is was quite intereting. The one thing I feel though, after reading this, is that the question of "is tarot real?" was side-stepped and a view on spirituality was offered in its place. When people do not trully understand something they often times do not know how to ask the questions. I think sometimes, those of us who use and understand tarot, forget that. Often times we assume those who ask "is tarot real?" are skeptical and we hop on the defensive ... perhaps we should be a little more open minded with them and help them ask what they want to know. Giving them a series of questions on other spiritual subjects, and then telling them that they should ask those types of questions first can be offensive and patronizing to them ... just some food for thought.

David River	16 Sep 2002
Thanks Jewel. I will take that into consideration. I guess the reason why I was taken off guard by this question is that it was posted on my site which is completely centered around Wicca and the tarot. I just found it odd that someone would ask that. I dont know... but I think your right I was slightly on the defensive when I replied. Thanks again for your insight. David River

Jewel	16 Sep 2002
David you are welcome, and I am glad you took my post in the spirit in which it was offered. I am also wiccan, and a tarot practitioner, and I often times find myself feeling defensive of my beliefs and interests as I have no one physically around me that shares these. It can be an easy trap for us to fall into. Perhaps some of the people who have asked that question on your site are new to both Wicca and Tarot and feel welcome at your site, so they seek your pearls of wisdom ... we will never have all of the answers, but assuming good faith can be very rewarding (even if you get burned some times ;))

Mojo	16 Sep 2002
David I don't apologize for having an opinion, nor should I. My posting clearly starts off saying "I can't help but feel..." - am I not allowed to feel that way? Opinions aren't right or wrong, they're simply a personal viewpoint and everyone is entitled to have one. I offered constructive criticism. I also added some encouragement at the end as I did look through your site and found it to be interesting and well put together. I stand by my original opinion, though, and your overly emotional response, combined with the repeated use of "you couldn't be more wrong" only serves to tell me that I'm not far off in my thinking. You use some highly charged emotional phrases in your response: "unjustly accused" and "your attack" and "your (sic)trying to limit others views" and "thanks for making me feel so unwelcomed" Such drama! It brings to mind Queen Gertrude in Hamlet - Act III, Scene 2 (appropriate since you suggest reading Shakespeare in your original posting). After seeing an overly dramaticized reenactment of the murder of her husband in a play sanctioned by her son Hamlet, and asked what she thought of the play, the queen replies: "the lady doth protest too much, methinks." And to answer your question, I most certainly CAN recognize honesty. I can also recognize all of the subtle forms of dishonesty. If you are offended, I suggest looking inward to understand why you react that way to a stranger's opinion. You'd probably be surprised to hear that I actually look forward to your continued postings here. Your original posting shows a depth of thinking that is quite refreshing actually. You'll get used to me in time. I'm really quite harmless.

Teal	16 Sep 2002
I was surprised at the question "is tarot real?" because I'd think a much more common question would be whether or not it's evil or "of the devil". I guess that just reflects my family background of fanatical, Pentecostal fundamentalism-----nobody in my life ever questioned whether it was real. Obviously, they believed it was or they wouldn't have tried to strike such fear into everyone's hearts about using tarot. Or even touching a deck of tarot cards. I'm not exaggerating here-----even to touch a deck was supposed to put you into the grips of the evil one and be a sure way to lose your everlasting soul. I'm coasting toward 60 years old, and this is the first time I've ever been open to tarot because of that. I've been sober a long time now, following a spiritual path different than that of my family, and only now have become comfortable enough in the unconditional love of my Creator to explore this tool.

David River	16 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo This Q&A really comes across as staged which would lead me to question your veracity. As such, it kept me from wanting to join your forum. I really have to point this out... The above quote from you Mojo is an accusation. Period. You here are accusing me of staging a question and answer situation. That is where offence is taken and an apology is deserved. It just seems to me you cannot accept responsibily for overstepping your bounds. You passed judgement. Period. And whats so funny is that you couldnt have judged someone any more incorrectly. Drama??? I suppose if you were on the receiving end of contempt you would feel passionate too. Im releasing this from my spirit here and now. And this is the last time I will ask, I deserve an apology. I will not post here anymore EVER If you dont accept that you have offended me. Truly and Honestly and make peace. It will be this forums loss. Personally considering my time restraints you are lucky to have me posting to begin with. It seems to me you just dont like having someone somewhat spiritually developed giving a fresh outside view unless they bow to your thoughts. Your energy in my view is oppressive and I know my spirit enough to know that the company you keep around you is somewhat representory of your own character. So you I choose not to keep in my presence should you not accept responsibility for your words. Although I may come across as looking to make you wrong, its not really true. What I want is for you to accept that you offended and quite honestly hurt someone else with your judgements or prejudgements whatever you want to call them and that is what is most important. YOU HURT SOMEONE ELSE WITH YOUR WORDS. THAT IS ONE OF THE FIRST TENENTS IN WICCA OR SPIRITUALITY IN GENERAL... Do what you will so long as it hurts no one. If you dont accept responsibility simply know....in this particuar situation you not only accused someone else with your "opinions" you hurt them and life will take care of that. David River

Teal	16 Sep 2002
I feel like I just set up a lemonade stand in a mine field.

Diana	16 Sep 2002
edited

Teal	16 Sep 2002
Yes, two euros will be just fine! I'll even throw in a nice home-baked cookie for the price. (How much is two euros in American? LOL )

David River	16 Sep 2002
I wish everyone the best and I really dont know if I will return. And Im sorry to have had to defend myself in such a way. Its like being attacked by guard dogs during shopping hours and the owner telling you "well you shouldnt have been shopping". Having this happen is just a real turn off. David River

Jewel	16 Sep 2002
David, It is a real shame ... seems like you have also passed judgement on us ...

Mojo	16 Sep 2002
Jeez, what a freaking drama queen! And yes, THAT is a judgement, but a well-deserved one. Quote: Originally posted by David River I will not post here anymore EVER If you dont accept that you have offended me. Ever? Really? Is that supposed to make me feel guilty? If so, it falls short of its objective. I grew up in an Italian-catholic family, I know all about guilt and the games played by people who believe in it. This sounds like something my 5 year old nephew would say. If you don't want to post here, then all I can say is buh-bye. Do I feel in the least bit responsible? Nope. Quote: Originally posted by David River It will be this forums loss. Personally considering my time restraints you are lucky to have me posting to begin with. Too funny! I think it's time for an ego check, little man. This forum has operated just fine and dandy for a long time before you came along and it will continue to thrive without you or me or any other individual. Quote: Originally posted by David River It seems to me you just dont like having someone somewhat spiritually developed giving a fresh outside view unless they bow to your thoughts. Yawn. Bowing isn't necessary. However, grovelling at the feet sometimes yields positive results. Quote: Originally posted by David River What I want is for you to accept that you offended and quite honestly hurt someone else with your judgements or prejudgements whatever you want to call them and that is what is most important. No, what YOU have to accept is that YOU choose to be offended and hurt by my opinion, which YOU want to label as judgements or prejudgements. I KNOW that I didn't judge you. I offered an opinion. I am not responsible for your feelings, YOU are. Quote: Originally posted by David River YOU HURT SOMEONE ELSE WITH YOUR WORDS. THAT IS ONE OF THE FIRST TENENTS IN WICCA OR SPIRITUALITY IN GENERAL... Sorry, but I don't happen to subscribe to the tenets (notice the correct spelling) of Wicca. Don't apply your personal morality to me. I get enough of that from the mainstream fundamentalists. I have my own and it serves me quite nicely, thank you.

Mojo	16 Sep 2002
Two Euros for a glass of lemonade????? Damn, inflation on the continent is worse than I imagined!

Diana	16 Sep 2002
edited

David River	16 Sep 2002
Mojo: Wow! Your last reply is so positive. Try to make you feel Guilt? Nah... Not necessary. Your true colors are now showing in that last post! Along with your petty spelling corrections and your childish name calling. Kinda funny it only took 6 or 7 posts to flush you out. Allow me to quote one of my old college professors... "Education can make one feel superior but it does not necessarily make one a better person". As far as ego.. I was merely trying to state that I am busy person NOT some sort of know it all. Thank you. Well let me just put it to you like this then... Opinions aren't always right, and what Im saying is I am not the character you portray me to be. That is shown by the depth of the few posts Ive already posted here (aside from this thread), and also the depth of my own dedication to spirituality (on-line and off-line). David River

Kiama	16 Sep 2002
Hi guys! I'm not moddie of this particula forum, but don't hesitate to lend a helping hand in the other mddie's absence. I am sure this is what Meewah or Umbrae would say... Mojo and David: So that others can respond to David's original thread without feeling bad or anything, it would be best if you continued any further discussion about wether or not Davd is dishonest via email or PM. It saves you guys airing your dirty laudry in front of milliosn of people, and save all us readers the embarrassment of looking at it! (Desite how sexy it may be! :P) Hope I'm not oversepping the mark here... Kiama

David River	16 Sep 2002
Kiama: Yeah, understood. I already pm'd a moderator and discussed the situation. That was my last reply regarding the situation. David River

MystiqueMoonlight	16 Sep 2002
A heated debate on any subject may be healthy for the soul. I myself was engaged in such not too long ago. However as it progresses and we reduce ourselves to a "tit for tat" situation we may both recognise the futileness of our efforts and lose fact of the original subject. We are only human and in our exploration of the spiritual quest we must sometimes take actions which are only "humanly" after all. However we must not lose sight of the fact that we are striving to ascend to a higher spritual self and it is through the mistakes of our mutual actions (comments) to one another that we learn more our humanly equality. Every one of us on this mundane plain learn to equate ourselves to the essence of our soul's journey. I believe both Mojo and David River have have met that fork in the road of their journey. In fact I congratulate you both in this learning. But remember a lesson learnt is only so if we have self actualised as a result of that learning. Blessed be to you both.

MeeWah	16 Sep 2002
David: I viewed this thread with interest since I have enjoyed your other threads & posts. I have also enjoyed your website. Your comments are thoughtful & merit responses in kind. When I last saw this, there were only a couple of replies. Since then, I regret the deterioration of your discussion. I do not think Mojo intended this, or intended you harm (though I can see how his initial comments could be perceived). I respectfully ask that you please not let this misunderstanding color your perception of him, nor of the members of this forum. Both of you have much to offer this community. Please know that your voice is very much welcomed.

MeeWah	16 Sep 2002
Mojo: I can see how one could possibly perceive this thread; however, based on David's past thoughtful contributions, I see him as genuinely interested in this community, just as can be conjectured by your various contributions. Let us please leave it at that. The bigger picture is what we can share with each other to further our understanding & appreciation of Tarot; also regarding each other.

sparrowspirit	16 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Teal I'm not exaggerating here-----even to touch a deck was supposed to put you into the grips of the evil one and be a sure way to lose your everlasting soul. I'm coasting toward 60 years old, and this is the first time I've ever been open to tarot because of that. I've been sober a long time now, following a spiritual path different than that of my family, and only now have become comfortable enough in the unconditional love of my Creator to explore this tool. Wow. I think that it is very courageous to open onesself up to ideas and inquiry that have been so discouraged in one's family and culture. It can be one of the most difficult things to do. I find that in my own life, continual exploration, especially about things that I never knew anything about helps me to get to know myself better. Good luck on your exploration.

Dark Inquisitor	16 Sep 2002
David: I enjoyed your post very much, & I hope you will continue to give us interesting food for thought & consideration. Mojo: I think you may be seeing things through your own filter of how you operate yourself, and possibly projecting that onto others. Tarotphelia

Laurel	17 Sep 2002
Is there any pink lemonade at the stand? **walks through very, very carefully and flinches with every step** Its been an emotionally-charged couple of days here at Aeclectic, hasn't it? Time for so deep breaths, reflection and maybe (hopefully?) realizing that possibly there's nothing here really worth arguing about or feeling upset or smug over? Sometimes we need to take things at face value and blow other people's feelings or words off if we disagree rather than personalizing them.

Liliana	17 Sep 2002
*mumbling about the damned Mercury Retrograde* Give me a double of lemonade, and a couple of cookies, looks like the dust is settling and we should get back to normal life soon And I liked your site too David, and I did go there after i saw this thread. :THP

Diana	17 Sep 2002
edited

Liliana	17 Sep 2002
i didnt say i wasnt paying, i was placing my order, do you pay at the same time as you order? hehe :THP

Teal	17 Sep 2002
OK, OK you two------cookies and lemonade are on the house for you both then. But the catch is----you gotta climb up there and get'em yourselves. LOL

David River	17 Sep 2002
I think if you all knew what the lemonade was really made of you wouldn't be clammoring for it so much. --> I think Mojo had something to do with it... Just Kidding. Smile. David

MystiqueMoonlight	17 Sep 2002
Has no-one understood my post on this thread? :) (David?)

David River	17 Sep 2002
Sorry it was a total joke. Just to lighten things up. David

blackthorn	17 Sep 2002
Ok first thing is first I too would love some lemonade and cookies I need them its been rough getting throught this thread!!! I too have been put to the test with this question in the last few days and it seems that my answer is always different. I try to explain the Tarot to people in a way that i think they will understand. I have yet to find my complete answer althought part of this thread has helped me (some has not) I'm not sure weather to thank you or not but a point to be made is here there are many differnt veiw of the tarot as you all can see just from this thread Merry Part

Umbrae	18 Sep 2002
Something I wrote and posted here a while ago: Tarot is a key. It opens doors. As a key it opens doors to the soul, the mind, the realm of the spirit, and the woven strands of the tapestry which we call time. Sometimes we only get a glimpse before the door shuts, leaving us breathless and wondering upon what we think we saw. Sometimes a door disappears to give us a new understanding, a new view of our world. Sometimes the doors are those in the lives of others and their realms. These doors provide us with the openings through which we may aide or assist others. It is a key by which we may open doors to light, or doors of darkness, weal or woe. It may be a language, a religion, music or mute; cardboard or toy and game. One day it may unlock a doorway to the depths of despair, and the next bring tears of joy. It is a key to a lock which no locksmith dare touch, for it turns the tumblers of the soul. ‘Snick’ Did you hear that? Perhaps the door is unlocked. Care to follow me though?

Angeline	18 Sep 2002
Wow that was an interesting read ;) I loved reading the answers to if tarot was real....haven't much to add ..not feeling very articulate to day..lol! oh and off to check out davids site now.......... Angeline x

The I wanted to share this with you... thread was originally posted on 15 Sep 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.