my deck is "angry" ????

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Sep 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Sullanciri2002	13 Sep 2002
this may sound weird - but hey, why not, we're all used to something a little different here, right. Although I own some 6 or 7 decks, I've almost read exclusively with my Thoth for the last two years ... and it worked great for me. About two weeks ago, I ordered the Portal tarot ... and ever since, the Thoth just doesn't seem to give me good readings anymore. Somehow, 90 % of the spreads/readings I do appear like gibberish to me - none of it makes any sense in regard to the question, or even after I've dwelled on the reading for days. Is it crazy or could it be that my Thoth is "angry" at me for ordering a new deck ? Is it jealous ?

Marion	13 Sep 2002
Ultimately decks of cards are little squares of laminated cardboard, and cannot feel emotions. It may be that you are ready to move onto reading tarot in a different way, and your subconscious is giving you a push.

lunalafey	13 Sep 2002
do you really like your new deck? perhaps you are really enjoying the new deck right now. Your focus is with this deck not your old one.

Sullanciri2002	13 Sep 2002
but that doesn't mean it's not already rooted in my mind. As to cards being laminated carton ... well, yes, if you bring everything down to the basic level, they are - then again, what is everyone here talking about, feeling "connected" & "the deck speaks to me" .... ? When push comes to shove, I know it's probably me ... or isn't it ? If we didn't believe there was anything more to tarot than a stack of laminated carton cards, would we bother reading and studying the tarot ?

lili	13 Sep 2002
To me it could be that you are ready to try and learn with a new different deck of cards because you have outgrow the Thoth, maybe you need put it away for a while maybe a month and see what happen.

fairyhedgehog	13 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Marion Ultimately decks of cards are little squares of laminated cardboard, and cannot feel emotions. Well, yes, and when I attribute emotions to my decks this is projection and anthropomorphism. But I still find it a wonderful way of speaking of my decks :) My Hanson-Roberts is 'nice and snug' in its new velvet bag - it likes it there :) Somehow, many of us find that when we act as though the cards are more than just cardboard, we get more value from them. I believe that this is because we are accessing our own subconscious and that a more 'rational' approach doesn't reach our inner mind in the same way. Others have different views. You don't have to believe in the supernatural to find this way of speaking of the cards useful :)

Laurel	13 Sep 2002
I also ascribe to the little pieces of cardboard theory and believe its important to always remember the 'power' comes from within, not without. Our tarot cards have no personality we do not bequeath to them. That said, if you want to appease your deck there are a couple of things you can do. The first is to invoke the spirit of the deck during meditation and assure it that you still love it and need it. Everyone needs acceptance and fears rejection. By creating a ritual of some kind that assures your Thoth deck its not being rejected, those angry vibes should go away. Since you do like to personify your deck, cleansing rituals weekly, done in a reverent as opposed to fearful way are another good method for keeping the positive energy flowing. Laurel

Red Emma	13 Sep 2002
I'm going to claim an older woman's perogative (older woman, hell! I'm a 76-year-old crone) and disagree a bit with my good tarot friends' definition of the basic component of tarot decks. Paper, glue and ink aren't the basics. Basic to paper, glue, etc. are atoms and within the atom is the nucleus. Physicists expected to find, when they finally cracked the nucleus, pure matter. What they found was pure energy. Newtonian physics takes us right down to the hull of the nucleus. Newtonian physics is the "what you see is what you get" school of thought -- I don't believe in ghosts or spirits because I've never seen one -- and linear thinking. What most of our society is based upon. But in the nucleus of the atom, physicists have found a whole new world, the world of Quantum Mechanics. The elements in this world follow a whole different pattern of being and thought. Which, before this, was unknown to Western/European thinking. For our purposes we don't need to examine these patterns. We only need to know that in the world of Quantum Mechanics everything in the world, the firmament, the universe is connected with everything else. And it is through these connections that Tarot Cards work. While there are giant controversies as scientists explore these elements, it is my firm belief that Tarot Decks, rocks, flowers ... everything in the universe has the potential of emotions, awareness, insight. It probably will not be until my great-great grandchildren's era that anything solid is known about this stuff. For me, one can only wonder in awe, and be charmed. And gratefully cooperate with the vagaries of my Tarot Decks. I've got a couple that are as fractious as small children. Best wishes, Red Emma

Violet Gargoyle	13 Sep 2002
Red Emma, I think you just described the my philosophy of life, love and everything else that is all that- The collective soul/energy that connects one thing to the next, and separated by star dust going into different patterns to make....stuff.

Major Tom	13 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Red Emma hell! I'm a 76-year-old crone. I would prefer to describe you as a wise woman. }) Quote: Originally posted by Red Emma ...everything in the world, the firmament, the universe is connected with everything else. And it is through these connections that Tarot Cards work... it is my firm belief that Tarot Decks, rocks, flowers ... everything in the universe has the potential of emotions, awareness, insight. I go a bit further than to say everything is connected. I say that everything is God and God is everything - even bits of card and ink. To say Tarot Decks have the potential of emotions, ect., is probably technically correct - but the feelings of what we plainly see as inanimate objects would not be understandable - the basic reason we anthropomorphise - to try to understand. Evoking spirits of Tarot Decks and cleansing rituals clear our own heads of the negative vibes we project into things that would not be capable of complex emotions. We can't honestly say "my deck is feeling angry". We can say with perfect honesty "I'm not feeling as confident of my deck as I used to do". Quote: Originally posted by Red Emma And gratefully cooperate with the vagaries of my Tarot Decks. I've got a couple that are as fractious as small children. I would strongly recommend you continue to cooperate with your Tarot Decks in the way that works best for you.

Thirteen	13 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sullanciri2002 Is it crazy or could it be that my Thoth is "angry" at me for ordering a new deck ? Is it jealous ? Have you asked the deck? And yes, decks do have personalities and do talk. Trust me. Ask the deck what's wrong and ask it what it needs from you to "feel better." Always go to the source.

Mojo	14 Sep 2002
Decks don't have personalities and decks don't talk. You may ascribe a personality to a deck, and you may "listen" to your deck through your imagination, but that's it. Decks of cards are inanimate objects.

DarkElectric	14 Sep 2002
My, all this controversy! Naturally, I feel compelled to say...something, for whatever it's worth. First of all, let me begin by saying, "Right on, Red Emma". Now, to the Thoth deck, and some personal experience. Yes cards may be inanimate, or not, and yes, there is some...confusion due to the advances in quantum physics, as to precisely what "Inanimate" means. However, I have always wondered, if the Thoth deck in particular, isn't guided by the energies of it's illustrious creator, Aleister Crowley. The Golden Dawn was a secretive society, to say the least. And I don't think anyone is sure about the true scope of the knowledge , or power, of old "Master Therion", who claimed to be the greatest mage of his time. (The fact that he died a penniless addict in a garret never changed his opinion of himself.) At his height, he was incredible. And he fell to the very depths of the abyss. But I think he actually extends quite a bit of personal influence, somehow, to the Thoth deck. If you read about Crowley,and collect a bit of background on him, who he was, and what he was like, you'll know what I mean. I have one I never read with anymore, because it seemed as though someone, or something, got pissed off and started to lie to me. This was immediately after I had gone through my Crowley reading phase, and, after conceeding the man's brilliance, also decided he was a BS artist extraordinaire. And it was at that point my Thoth deck began to lie to me. Somebody else I was once close to had a similar experience. He ended up putting his Thoth away in the cellar, and never reading with it at all. I didn't go that far. but I don't read with mine either. So, no matter what the cards physically are, or aren't, "There are more things in heaven, and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy". That's my take on it, anyway :)

Red Emma	14 Sep 2002
I wish I could jump forward in time to ask my great-great grandchildren about the depth and breadth of Quantum Physics and how it relates to Tarot Decks. Until then, I'm going to follow the lead of the original Red Emma and believe whatever I darned well please. As I'm sure Major Tom and the others will do. Blessings, Red Emma II

ihcoyc	14 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric This was immediately after I had gone through my Crowley reading phase, and, after conceeding the man's brilliance, also decided he was a BS artist extraordinaire. And it was at that point my Thoth deck began to lie to me. Uncle Al had a peculiar and evil sense of humour. (It's something he and I share.) I went through a phase of idolizing Crowley and reading all I could get of his work back in high school. I still have a quite beat up and heavily annotated copy of his autobiography around here. Whatever else you can say about him, he was also a superb storyteller. I own a Thoth deck. I picked it up in a flea market. I have never even attempted to read with it, though I like some of the art. It isn't so much that I don't trust it, as much as it seems marked with an agenda, and I'm not sure I want to buy into that agenda. This is also why I drifted away from the Waite deck, which is also strongly marked by two very different personalities. I frankly wonder whether Waite and Smith really got along well together. They strike me as two rather stubborn personalities that might create friction, and I seem to sense some underlying tension in the deck. My interpretations of certain cards don't jive with some of the pictures anymore, either. I don't think that my other decks really have dispositions in this sense; but this may say more about the kinds of decks I like. There is "the Tarot" and separate decks are tools for accessing the Tarot. Then again, the decks I use regularly are variations on a theme, relatively free from particular schools of thought.

MeeWah	14 Sep 2002
Red Emma & Major Tom: Thank you for the perspective. I wish to add only this (with apologies for any errors in punctuation or otherwise as I am relying on memory): To see the world in a grain of sand, And heaven in a wildflower; Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, And eternity in an hour. ~ William Blake

jacx57	14 Sep 2002
I'm still new to this whole tarot world here, but my only deck is so tempremental!!! Alone in my room they work really well, but when I do readings for my friends and stuff it refuses to make sense and I think it's trying to piss me off! Maybe I'm crazy, but I can "sense" how its feeling...and more often then not it's trying to bug me! I want a new more cooperative deck, but I can't find any that really...sing to me, y'know? So for now I'm stuck with my PMSy deck. Fun.

Phoenix	14 Sep 2002
Welcome Jacx57! I have also noticed this with my Thoth deck. Infact, of all the decks I own, this one gets very pissy with me if I do not use it once and a while. Glad I am not alone!

Laurel	15 Sep 2002
Sullanciri2002, let us know if you do take steps to appease your Thoth deck and how it works. In my mind, it doesn't matter who's "right" about the metaphysical nature of the problem as much as it matters that a meaningful solution to the problem is found and you feel better. Laurel

fairyhedgehog	15 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel In my mind, it doesn't matter who's "right" about the metaphysical nature of the problem I think you're right, Laurel. We all have our views, some of us are materialists (as I am) others are supernaturalists. What is interesting to me is that whether I believe in the kind of view that Red Emma put forward or not, acting as if it is true is very successful. And with you, I hope that Sullanciri2002 finds a Quote: meaningful solution to the problem

Dajax	15 Sep 2002
As co-creator of the Portal, I find myself compelled to respond to this thread . My personal belief? Nothing has power unless you give it to something. A symbol is meaningless unless you subscribe meaning to it. Any particular Tarot deck only responds to us as individuals, when we respond to it. I believe that we give our tools power and meaning. As an artist, in particular, you put yourself into what work you do...and then give it over for others to add their own passion and enthusiasm to. The Portals now encompass countless other's interpretations and passion and belief systems...they no longer belong to us. As for the Thoth deck in relation to the Portals...the Thoth is my primary reading deck. I didn't know who Crowley was when the deck found me...I related to the Art. When the Portals were being created, I would do a reading with David (the Portal's Artist) using the Thoth for clarification and/or insight. We also referenced the Universal Waite this way. Both decks are a part of the Portals. My story, which helped to define the creation of the Portal's...focused on Tarot as part of my recovery in dealing with Bipolar illness. The deck I used the most: the Thoth. I think that whatever is going on for Sullanciri2002, lies within himself. Not the Thoth deck itself...as the Portals were born from the use of the Thoth! I think that (as someone else mentioned) it just be some time for a different type of reading. The Portals are more meditative in nature...but less direct than the Thoth. I'm feeling that it's just time for some introspection on Sullanciri's part. At least for now. As an aside, I will be curious to see if Sullanciri will see echoes of the Thoth in the Portals? At an intuitive level, as David's art is completely different. Well, all this was said in respect. I just wanted to explain how the Thoth and Portal's are linked. Yours, Traci

David River	15 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jacx57 I'm still new to this whole tarot world here, but my only deck is so tempremental!!! Alone in my room they work really well, but when I do readings for my friends and stuff it refuses to make sense and I think it's trying to piss me off! Maybe I'm crazy, but I can "sense" how its feeling...and more often then not it's trying to bug me! I want a new more cooperative deck, but I can't find any that really...sing to me, y'know? So for now I'm stuck with my PMSy deck. Fun. This is one really interesting conversation going on here. The quote I am referencing above is interesting to me because I had a dream of this same scenero just a few days ago. Referencing my dream I think that the reason your cards work best for you alone and in your room is because that is how you have built up your energy. You feel most comfortable and at ease working alone with the cards and the particular room you are using them in is the room in which you built up your energy. I would venture to guess you have other spiritual things in that room then just tarot cards. Personally my center tends to be my living room. I have recently divided things out among my house a little more such as ritual items and I do readings in my kitchen now, but still my center remains my living room. It remains the most comfortable room. My dream confirmed this. So what to get from this... Try readings in other rooms and even though you feel uncomfortable keep doing readings for others. You will eventually feel better and the readings will become clearer. Perhaps you just need to center your energy differently such as my case. Commenting on another post... I wanted to say that I find that each deck I have resonates to a particular frequency. Rather then looking at the deck at being animate, I see the deck as a tool to reach a particular energy. Some energies will resonate to one deck and some another. For instance would you think a Celtic spirit or guide might better come through on a Celtic deck. Makes sense dosent it. What I mostly want to point out is that when you are using tarot you are in fact channeling. Channeling energy from spirit. This means that the cards are a doorway not necessarily a living breathing entity. They connect you to your guides and this is why I found in another post about tarot cards being "open to fraud" so offensive. People use what they need to use in order to survive and also learn. If you like using cards use them. Period. If you want to try to learn to channel without, so be it. Neither way is better then the other. Just know life will send you in the direction you need to be and let it be at that. Have faith. David River

Moongold	15 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel I also ascribe to the little pieces of cardboard theory and believe its important to always remember the 'power' comes from within, not without. Our tarot cards have no personality we do not bequeath to them. Do you think that we are channels for a much greater spiritual energy when we read Tarot and that the cards are symbols through which those greater spirits speak with us? I guess I am very curious about others' conceptions of where the wisdom and energy of the Tarot comes from. The cards are the instruments, just as the pen is for the calligrapher, the brush for the artist, the camera for the photographer. I think that is why people treat their cards with such respect. Perhaps the cards are more sacred because of the things they represent I'm an amateur photographer and I use different cameras for different situations. Tarot is the same for me, although I am very new. Sometimes I use Morgan Greer and sometimes the Mythic and I see things differently through both these decks. This question has raised other really intereresting questions. Thanks. Moongold

Sullanciri2002	16 Sep 2002
and yes to all those who asked, I will see if the cards themselves can help me to find out what part of me is playing a role in this "feeling" or situation. In getting back to the original question - I'm in two minds about the issue (absolutely no pun whatsoever intended Traci): I know that my own feelings, thoughts, subconscious etc plays a big part in what the cards tell me ... or rather what I manage to see in the spread. On the other hand, I've experienced just a couple of things too many to think it's all so easily explained in a rational way. I'll see if the mood's right this evening, and do a reading then with the Thoth. I am very glad to see there's a link between the Thoth and the Portal, though - thanks, Traci, for that extra bit of info on the Portal (I'm eagerly awaiting its arrival).

Dajax	16 Sep 2002
! Better a sense of humor concerning it! than to ignore it! Being of two minds...that is! Your deck should be there soon...with this whole 9-11 issue...it may be delayed. I am anxious to hear what you think!

Cerulean	16 Sep 2002
I have a story, although long, that might make some sense to others. The people that I know who enjoy Thoth-based decks either in card meanings or the art---which is actually Lady Frieda Harris' art work of the 1930s and 1940's---do have moods or periods where certain artworks and styles make sense to them. For instance, one great textile artist/web design gentleman that I know connected very much at first to Tarot of the Spirit (Pamela Eakins) and the mother/child story connection of the deck. I think he described the color combinations in this deck as beautiful and flowing. He's done quite a bit of self-psychological healing with mother-types in his life. He has since moved on to the Cosmic Tribe by Stevie Postman---he also happens to enjoy the body-conscious imagery, as he regains physical health. His artwork also has moved from a less restrictive, perfectionist technique learned from a tailoring apprenticeship to a more freeform experimentation in dying his own cloth--- a true mastery and pleasure of his craft. His tastes in using his tarot decks also seem to change with his mood---usually he does prefer decks influenced by Thoth deck meanings or art style. I can say to him by the way he dyes certain color combinations, how it seems he was in a certain mood---reflective, dynamic, angry, easy, etc...to those with visual sensitivies, a certain color combination can signal depressive or antigonistic or whimsical moods. I would say the Thoth deck is very hard-hitting in terms of different color combinations, so people might be jarred by the contrasts. Lady Frieda Harris' card Futility in color combinations is a far cry from the Princess of Wands---Luxery or Pleasure in that deck has color and mood-enhancing paintings that look very different from the Knight of Swords. In contrast, a deck that has some Thoth-based meanings, but is truly whimsical in spirit and feeling of the art includes Gaudenzi's Enchanted Tarot/Tarot of the Golden Dawn. The colors in the background of the minors vary--blue, green, yellow and a kind of peach-tone---but the background tones are so light in color and the watercoloring of the main figures are tinted so prettily. It's not a deck that I would say is "moody'' in terms of it's art. I could hear my artistic friends saying this fits their whimsical moods, their delight in humerous Italian art---it speaks to them in the way colors and images might spark their eyes and imagination. I think I understand. I think the original deck being discussed was the Thoth deck---the way someone described their reaction (the deck seems angry; my readings seem murky from this set of images) may sometimes be more colorful or curious or poetic than how I would describe my reaction. I have heard and I tend to agree that the color tones and the style of the Thoth deck tend to be very dynamic and high contrast. So words describing Thoth deck art can include "strong", "harsh" and "moody". Not all Thoth-derived decks seem to follow that pattern... Mari H.

Cerulean	16 Sep 2002
P.S. I could see if someone was in the mood for a change, how the Portal Tarot's coloring and painterly beauty could make them yearn for something else. I like how the Moon card seems to have a lovely organic motif that reminds me of a flame-colored flower surrounding the darker round center of blue. I think some cards of this deck sing to me %). Cheers, Mari H.

Sullanciri2002	17 Sep 2002
Okay, as some people suggested that I ask the Thoth deck itself to explain things to me ... I did just that, and did a CC with focus on "insight into why readings throughout the past ten/fourteen days didn't make sense to me". 1&2: 7 of swords + Art (temperance) 3 : 8 of swords 4 : 6 of wands 5: 10 of swords 6 : Empress 7: 3 of Disks 8: 8 of Cups 9: 5 of Wands 10: Magician Before I elaborate on what all of this meant to me ... perhaps someone else wants to share ideas on this spread ? I can't help it, I'm such a tease

lili	17 Sep 2002
Since there are different way to lay the Celtic Cross, can you please tell us the positions, in this case the beneath behind and the crown positons which sometimes can be laid different.

Sullanciri2002	17 Sep 2002
as I understand/use them 1) the issue 2) influencing factor on the issue 3) below 1& 2 => subconscious, what we tend to underestimate 4) recent past influences - to the left of 1&2 5) above 1&2 => conscious, what we sometimes overvalue as an influence 6) future influences - to the right of 1&2 7) self / active aspect of self in this situation / self image 8 perception by others, what they see as your/my active part 9) warnings - possibilities and risks 10) outcome at least, this is how I make/give sense to the positions of the CC

ihcoyc	17 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sullanciri2002 1&2: 7 of swords + Art (temperance) 3 : 8 of swords 4 : 6 of wands 5: 10 of swords 6 : Empress 7: 3 of Disks 8: 8 of Cups 9: 5 of Wands 10: Magician Strikes me as a fairly good reading for the issue. You apparently are looking for a mental trick that will make it all make sense. (7S)These things, however, take time and practice. (Temperance) You've apparently felt somewhat trapped or rigid in your approach to the Thoth deck (8S), perhaps somewhat defensive against what you feel its implied point of view is. (6W) You fear that its symbolism is completely beyond your grasp (10S) when in fact a fruitful relationship is ahead. (Empress) You imagine you've been working hard to make it work (3D) but that the deck has chosen to ignore you (8C). Perhaps what's needed is to wrestle with these issues (5W) until you achieve an effortless rapport with the deck (Magician).

The my deck is "angry" ???? thread was originally posted on 13 Sep 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.