Name that card! part 1: Trump 0/22

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Sep 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kyrielle	02 Sep 2002
Let's see how many different names we can collect for this card. Most decks call it the Fool, but there are lots of other names out there. So what's your favorite, least favorite, personal choice, etc. for the first/last card of the Major Arcana? -- Kyrielle

jmd	03 Sep 2002
Le Fov (or Fou) is neither, to my reckonning, either numbered zero nor 22, but remains traditionally unnumbered, and often positioned between cards XX and XXI. But to answer this wonderful question, my personal favourite name remains: Le Fov

Diana	03 Sep 2002
edited

Kiama	03 Sep 2002
I quie like the Seeker, from a spiritual point of view. I think a few decks use this one or the un-numbered card, like the Celtic Wisdom... Kiama

Jewel	03 Sep 2002
I don't really have a name preference (although seeker is cool), but I prefer the card in the first position as card 0. Probably because that is what I am the most exposed to.

Violet Gargoyle	03 Sep 2002
Zero. Doesn't even have to have the name on it, I will always think of it as "The Fool" or "Card Zero"

WolfSpirit	04 Sep 2002
I always think of it as the Fool, that's what I learnt when I started and that will stick with me. Although I do like "seeker" a lot; but I will automatically translate it back to: aaahh, the fool !

Sullanciri2002	04 Sep 2002
call this card "The Quaestor" as in "he/she who undertakes a quest" ... which fits in nicely with the numerological concept for the 0 (that which is nothing yet, but has the potential to become anything) ?

fairyhedgehog	04 Sep 2002
I always think of it as 'The Fool' but I don't like to see it numbered. I think the only decks that don't number it, though, might be very old decks and French tarot decks for playing the game of tarot. I know in French tarot games it is called "l'excuse", and when you 'play the fool' you lose the trick, but keep the card which scores 4 points. You can play it at any time, and it is useful to get out of a situation where otherwise you would lose a potentially useful card. I got all this from the downloadable version of the game (which is in French) at http://objectivetarot.free.fr/objective/index.en.html and from http://www.pagat.com/tarot/frtarot.html

catlin	04 Sep 2002
Personally I call it either the seeker or "Le Mat" but when I talk "officially" about tarot I stick to "The Fool". I prefer to connect it with the "0" but I also like the Joker idea where you can use/place the fool anytime/anywhere you like.

Diana	04 Sep 2002
edited

Major Tom	04 Sep 2002
'Twill always be The Fool to me. I've often wondered if the card remained unnumbered in the older decks simply because Roman numerals don't have a zero and those decks 'always' number the majors with Roman numerals. Zero is after all 'no thing'. })

Kyrielle	04 Sep 2002
That new Tarot de Paris calls this card Initiation. -- Kyrielle

fairyhedgehog	04 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom 'Twill always be The Fool to me. I've often wondered if the card remained unnumbered in the older decks simply because Roman numerals don't have a zero and those decks 'always' number the majors with Roman numerals. Zero is after all 'no thing'. }) That may be the case, but I much prefer the idea that the Fool has no particular place in the Tarot, that he can go anywhere.

fairyhedgehog	04 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Fairyhedgehog: Marseilles decks (which are the ones who have remained the most faithful to the original meanings and symbolism of Tarot) will never, ever, ever number the Fool. ... In fact, the so-called Death card is the Arcane Sans Nom (Arcanum without a Name), and the Fool card is known as the Arcane Sans Nombre (Arcanum without a Number.) If you look at the two cards in the Marseilles decks, you will see that the persons are actually one and the same. I love that idea of the trump with no name, and the trump with no number. Both of them being the same person kind of freaks me out though :) Don't tell me I have to get a Marseilles type deck now too? :) :) :)

Diana	04 Sep 2002
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Starfish	04 Sep 2002
"Le Mât" is also my favorite name for card 0. :TSUN Starfish

Kaz	04 Sep 2002
you will love a marseille deck fairyhedgehog :-) i second diana here...... kaz

jmd	04 Sep 2002
fairyhedgehog, do not feel under any pressure to obtain a deck with the magnificence and depth and esoteric and psychological depth as the Marseilles! Only get a copy if you truly want one - and then wait, and maybe get two ;)! With regards to the Game of Tarot, I thought 'l'excuse' was worth 5, not 4 - and it can be lost if played in the final 'trick'. As to Diana's statement that 'Marseilles decks (which are the ones who have remained the most faithful to the original meanings and symbolism of Tarot) will never, ever, ever number the Fool', I am very saddened to inform you that Lo Scarabeo has done the un-imaginable: they have printed a zero (0) upon the base of the 1751 Burdel version of this card in their 'reproduction' - in addition to printing the 'title' of each card in six different languages! If you want a Marseilles, I suggest getting a Camoin, Heron or Grimaud before this unfortunate but otherwise worthy deck. But back to the thread: Though it may very well be argued that Roman numeration does not include a zero, this does not mean that this is the reason the card is un-numbered. If it was conceptually a zero, it would precede card 1. Remaining un-numbered, its location also remains indetermined. It is only our more modern thinking which wants to fix the card to a definite position.

Strega	05 Sep 2002
Like Major Tom and others: "'Twill always be The Fool to me." :) I do like The Seeker as depicted in the Arthurian Tarot. But I don't like The Clown as portrayed in the Vision Quest Tarot. :)

Diana	05 Sep 2002
edited

catlin	05 Sep 2002
I suppose the idea with "Ther Clown" was an effort to get the idea of the sacred Heyoke figure into an "NA" inspired tarot deck. The Heyoke (no guarantee on the spelling) was in some NA traditions a kind of sacred fool. Reminds me of the Shakespearian fools who are also considered as wise and living apart from usual social behaviour.

fairyhedgehog	05 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jmd fairyhedgehog, do not feel under any pressure to obtain a deck with the magnificence and depth and esoteric and psychological depth as the Marseilles! Only get a copy if you truly want one - and then wait, and maybe get two ;)! No pressure, eh? :D And Diana and Kazz both agree, hmm.... Quote: With regards to the Game of Tarot, I thought 'l'excuse' was worth 5, not 4 - and it can be lost if played in the final 'trick'. You're right of course. I'm a bit out of touch on this ... Quote: If you want a Marseilles, I suggest getting a Camoin, Heron or Grimaud before this unfortunate but otherwise worthy deck. Okay, I'll add a Marseilles deck to my wishlist. But I'm not buying one, I'll have to trade for it.... :)

The Name that card! part 1: Trump 0/22 thread was originally posted on 02 Sep 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.