Tarot in the 21st Century
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 Sep 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| MeeWah |
26 Sep 2002 |
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Diana: Thank you for a very informative thread. I like the parallels you drew.
My "formal" introduction to Tarot was with a deck called The Rider published by Samuel Weiser at a time when there were apparently no other decks readily available. Nor were there books other than those by Eden Gray. I ignored the LWB & I did not look to read any books on Tarot for years! I do have a fondness for this deck as happily, it speaks to me. Eventually, I came across books based on this deck. With the advent of technology, the proliferation of deck designers & the ease of acquiring both decks & books, the access to variety & other schools of thought is apparently endless!
Please forgive my ignorance, but by the "old French tradition" & "Classical Tarot", are you referring to the Marseilles decks? I did not know about the Marseilles decks until my association with the Aeclectic forums. This has broadened my Tarot outlook & I am currently trying to become more familiar with the Marseilles.
I am not familiar with the Golden Dawn tradition other than its influences appear in the Thoth & the Cosmic Tribe so I am not in a position to further contribute. I have not yet studied the Thoth but the Cosmic Tribe is one of my reading decks. I have had to adjust my reading parameters since the cards of Strength & Justice are switched. I tend to prefer it in the RSW tradition but that is in part influenced by the numbers.
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| catlin |
26 Sep 2002 |
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I think it was M. Greer who pointed out in her book "Tarot constellations" the mainr streams in which tarot devided. She put all Marseilles like decks together in a) French-Italian-Spanish tradition, the RW based ones in b) an Anglo-American tradition and there was a third one in which all decks were assembled which could not be classified in a) or b) but I'd suggest to add another group in which all Thoth-based decks should fit in. Darn what a pity I don't have this book before my eyes here!
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| Laurel |
26 Sep 2002 |
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I'm inclined to think of the Thoth tradition as just a sidebar to the Golden Dawn/Hermetic tradition. That way there's the "Classical" tradition of Marseilles and related older decks and the "Hermetic" tradition that began with Levi/Papus and continues to this day via Wang/Ciceros et all.
From there, we have three more recent and small but growing traditions. The first centers around the idea of tarot as "Art for Art's own sake". Here I'd put the Dali tarot and some other decks, each of which is a very unique deck created as an artist's personal tribute or vision of the tarot, without the esotericism or the reliance on traditional symbols. Readers of 'Art' decks tend to either go by what the lwb says or their own intuition regarding the images; there's not a lot of study into the history and symbolism.
Then there's the modern psychology tradition that scoffs at mysticism and relies on reading 'people' moreso than reading cards. They use all the tools a good minister or counselor uses- reflective listening, body language, etc., Rather than calling Mojo an anarchist, because I think he definately has a pretty coherent organized "system" and toolbox, I'd put him here.
Finally, there's the Inclusionists who take some particular culture or philosophy or icon and build a tarot deck or a reading style around it. Here's where we get the "Native American tarot" the "Zen tarot", and so on and so forth. These decks might have their own esoteric system or be built on the Hermetic tradition, but they stretch beyond it or make different interpretations. A lot of pagan decks are in here.
And finally, there's the aeclectics who blatantly steal from most or all of the traditions and build their own unique style or cards with a pinch of this and a sprinkle of that. :)
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| Jewel |
26 Sep 2002 |
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Laurel I completly agree with you. Both the Thoth and the RWS are both products of Golden Dawn teachings, they are variations of GD philosophies.
I now prefer working with Thoth based decks although I learned with the Robin Wood and Tarot of the Old Path, both of which are RWS based decks. So in my case I do not believe it would be accurate to say that preferences are based on what one learns with. I feel that my preference has evolved through the gaining and application of knowledge.
What I have learned in the last 8 years is how much there is to learn. Coming to Aeclectic has opened a whole "school" up for me to learn from. An excellent place to ask questions and to share what ever information we have that is of interest to others.
Technology has certainly thrown the doors to Tarot wide open for anyone seriously interested. It is no surprise that new styles of decks are emerging. Personally I like the esoteric aspects, but as Laurel eloquently put it we have many choices.
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| Lee |
26 Sep 2002 |
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Sorry if this is something which is confusing no one but me, but I'm a little fuzzy about what the "Marseilles" or "Classical" tradition is, if we're going to differentiate it from Levi and Papus, as Laurel does. I think I also asked something like this question in the Tarot and Alchemy thread. It seems to me there was no tradition prior to de Gebelin/Levi/Papus, since prior to them, Tarot was used almost exclusively as a game. So, I guess I'm saying there is no Marseilles tradition exclusive of de Gebelin/Levi/Papus. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong! Or are we referring to modern-day interpretations of the Marseilles by French authors who examine the cards from a numerological perspective?
-- Lee
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| HOLMES |
26 Sep 2002 |
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since the title is tarot in the 21 century
i am going to go on a differnt mode here.
when rider waite was made in 1910, they say it dramaticly changed the face of the title forever when it illustrated the pips.
they did forget however it was done in the 15 century on a deck which some of the illustrations are on the rider waite, albeit redone by smith. the only thing is since the rider was distributed widly in american and such , it became the most accesible deck and henceforth the most used. that is why most decks focus on it.
the thoth was left in dust as it was made in 1944/45 and was released post humourly after their deaths. or so the books says.
and it wasnt' standard til the 70s. which i dont' know about that for how else can crowley write the book of the thoth ,, less the book came first and the deck second.
the main thing about this deck is it sexual, vibrant nature and colours.
but that was the 20 century , we all agree on that right ?
it is now 2002, and where will the tarot head now..you already see some slants,
1. computer generated tarot, how far can that go ,
2. more themes tarot , aye we got themes galore
3. more cards added, aye look at it so far, oso zen, enochian tarot, healing earth tarot.
some say the tarot needs to get back to basics, other says to push it as far as it can go.
no one knows what a true tarot, or really has been hidden.
back to the golden dawn,, (dont' know nothing about marseiles as there are no books on it in canada ) (had it ,, very ugly deck ehhe)
it says in my mystical tarot that rider went as far as he could in the symbols without revealing nothing to the uninited.
crowly said the deck was basicaly for beginnners and a joke.
the mystical tarot says he made his tarot as much as possible for the uninaited as well. without revealed secrets.
perhaps in the 21 century we will get a tarot that no only will incorpated ritual magic, kabbalah, shamanism, numberology, astraolgy, angelogy, demonolyg (too scary for me ), sacred geometry, channelings, wicca, psyscholoyg, philopshy, and anything else beneatht the stars, and will strive to share it all ,, deeper truths and what nots. ?
or we will get the major extended in such a way we can no way deny it,
or another suit, called ether suit (my own thoughts) if not the major arcana declared so .
it will be hard to make a differnce really we got so much varying but good artwork, must much so then in the rider with smiths illustrations,
who knows,, but sure be fun to find out. eheheh
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| ladycj |
26 Sep 2002 |
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I agree with Holmes. Maybe the future it to have decks that are personalized to you. After all, we use only the cards that speak to us, so maybe, we would create a deck based on what is needed for you as an individual to make a good reading.
Blessings
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| Major Tom |
26 Sep 2002 |
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Originally posted by Laurel
I'm inclined to think of the Thoth tradition as just a sidebar to the Golden Dawn/Hermetic tradition.
And finally, there's the aeclectics who blatantly steal from most or all of the traditions and build their own unique style or cards with a pinch of this and a sprinkle of that. :)
Agreed - the Toth is Golden Dawn. Holmes makes the point about 'no revealed secrets' - I've always wondered about the validity of 'hidden knowledge' - even though I've had access to some. Another Golden Dawn tradition is perpetuated by the BOTA via Paul Foster Case and they have 'hidden knowledge' that I've found most useful. })
Ah now Laurel - I'm glad you smiled when you said Aeclectics. :)
I think one of the reasons that we're so familar with the Golden Dawn tradition is that - for a long while - it was the only tradition available if you spoke only English.
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| Lee |
27 Sep 2002 |
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Diana, there's only one solution... you're just going to have to sit down and write a book. If you do, I hope you'll dedicate it to me! :D
In any event, I'll certainly be the first person in line to buy it.
-- Lee
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| Cerulean |
27 Sep 2002 |
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To the gentle heart who really wants to trace the French roots and perhaps the tarot...perhaps you are feeling there's an elusive thread that is true for you and also runs in the types of tarot or tarocchi cards that you prefer.
There are many wonderful European periods of history that have reflections in the art and poetry or stories of the time. One of the threads I like to follow is how poets define romance, love and sometimes the philosophy behind it. Another thread might be Greco-Roman mythology and how it is revisited throughout history. Other threads might be the Arthurian romances, celtic mythology, papal histories and families from the time of the crusades that sprang from France/Italy/Germany/Spain...it's odd that I find this all in various tarot historical decks.
However you decide to use this information that works for you into your twenty-first century tarot fun or study...what a nice idea to look through your ancestry and bring it forward.
Mari H.
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| Laurel |
27 Sep 2002 |
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I'm in the same boat as Diana. I can't articulate the difference between "classical" and "Hermetic" except to say that there was a tradition before the occult revival; I know there was. This tradition did not focus on the cards a magical tool the way the early Hermetic occultists did. I'm very sure that this classical tradition did -not- equate the cards to the Kabbalah. The classical tradition also wasn't created by the nobles who were buying the cards to "play with" as it was a tradition created by the artisans who *made* the cards. The authors of those early decks created a tradition, which their sons and apprentices built upon. But I can't detail out the specifics of this tradition.... I don't know them. LOL. Part of it is probably lost and I'm personally ignorant of historical (pre-occult revival) tarot at this point. Its just a sense of knowing there is a decided difference.
This doesn't mean the Marseilles deck has no alchemical attributions. It means that the stories behind each card and many of the symbols chosen for each one were different than what emerged during/after Gebelin/Levi/Papus. You could say that Levi had certain theories about the origin of the tarot and then the Rider-Waite deck was published which took those theories as fact and by becoming so popular, spread Levi's ideas so that they became the truth... at least in regards to all the decks spawned by the RW. Hence a new tradition was born.
Laurel
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| Cerulean |
27 Sep 2002 |
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"Voices of the past speaking to us..."
Hmmm...I think I completely missed some of the points made earlier. Let me make another stab at trying to understand what you mean? (Please bear with me).
The feeling I get from lovely pieces of art from the ancient past might also be engendered from an almost universal or common human experience. So when I look at beautifully painted tarot cards, sometimes I feel there's a deeper significence to the symbolism. The archetypes of the past that are done well speak to me today. Here's my examples.
For example I might say the feeling of tenderness that I feel when I see a smiling baby's eyes comes from a familiarity somehow learned or matured within me. So then I smile also. My experience, learned or matured within me, is a lovely feeling when I see a happy infant. It's tenderness and many women might smile when they see my smile, mirroring a similar experience. Over time, if I'm from a sophisticated enough culture and I'm a creator of images, I might be able to engender tenderness from others. So I do this by making the image of a smiling face or baby. Let's say that was so successful
an experiment, that other image makers decide to use a smiling face or baby image in their art and in their own regions.
In the smiling face example, perhaps it became so irritating to see just the smiling face, people stopped using the image. In this example, let's say the baby image was so powerful, it continued to be used as a focal point for a storytelling tool or for commercial purposes, or for card images to draw people's attention. I think in historical triumph parades or triumph cards or art of the nobles, the putti (male baby or female baby cupid) was a common decorative device for a celebratory or noteworthy scene.
I don't know that the first use of a baby or cupid figure was intended to work this way---but after a few pieces of using the baby figure or cupid in art were successfully perceived or accepted, others would copy the symbolism and it would come to mean a lot of different things to different people--but as long as people recognize the babylike figures, it could also engender the original response of tenderness that made people stop and take notice of the art or accept it. And while the baby cupid might be delicately white or pink in European traditions, the images of a nice, healthy baby child or infant is also an archetype of tenderness or good things in Asian cultures. It makes my grandmothers smile.
This may be straying from some points of being able to say as we look at the tarot images, that we can also feel the tarot images intuitively? That we can say the tarot symbolic images also have familiar voices that speak to us today?
I probably put the above badly, but is this close to the points made previously?
Mari H.
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| Cerulean |
28 Sep 2002 |
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I cannot tell you for certain, but disease was not well-understood in 1321. Syphllis was more common, the hereditary gout (a very painful disease that haunted the Medicis throughout the 1400s and even now, can be controlled but not cured) and even poisoning from the use of lead in cosmetics and paint might have been factors.
I haven't any information that backs up the story of King Charles and tarocchi or triumph cards. That is why the King Charles cards are a mystery to me. If you were to research it, you might want to start looking at art and literature reference of France from the 1200s through the 1400s.
My own studies are mostly Italian, when I get the spare time.
Please bear with me to suggest a few things that might have contributed to the triumph or tarocchi cards in Italy.
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1321 was after Dante and his Divine Comedy set a sort of celestial map for thinkers and writers and artists. His second volume, Purgatory, in the last verses, showed a heavenly triumph parade where the four cardinal virtues as lovely ladies accompanied the celestial cart pulled by a griffon.
Inbetween the next examples was the Petrach's 1350 Triumph poems, after the grim Black Death plagues of 1347 and 1348. Petrach's triumph series does show a vernacular attempt to solve moral questions--his poem was about seeing triumph floats of love, chastity,death, fame, time and eternity. I found this information from the Cambridge History of Italian Literature. In the lit books that I've looked through, this vernacular poem isn't considered Petrach's greatest work.
Italy has a lot of documentation through their census, taxation history, literature, art and the Vatican archives. Still, to reseach about their gaming cards and culture takes awhile for me--I read translation or just pick up words here and there in poetic formats.
Dante's Paradiso map the heavenly spheres in a way you find mirrored in the later Mantegna cards of the mid-to-late 1400s in Fererra...and also a near cousin, in the Cary-Yale Visconti cards, the four cardinal virtues are also referenced. The Sforza-Visconti and D'Este clans throughout the 1400s had alliances, marriages and so I can see relationships between these cards. There are are also documented examples of triumph poetry and courtly schools of art that look like the cards produced in Fererra (Tura, Mantegna) and Milan (Bembo). Now the above examples came from a year or so, off and on, as I took my Dante and Renaissance classes.
I'm copying a bit of this to go with the Mantegna thread---I don't know that this is helpful to French researchers.
Mari Hoshizaki
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| Cerulean |
28 Sep 2002 |
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There is something that might assist you, if the French connection through King Charles doesn't work.
John Philip Thomas, who authored and photo-montaged Tarot de Paris (www.TarotdeParis.com), has a fascinating story. Anyhow, his book and tarot set also has something to do with his delight in finding about the Roman background of Paris and also visiting a Knight-Templer site...there also may something around the times of Charlemagne/Crusuades. His tarot information might have keywords or concepts that may yield good clues.
If you are feeling connected to French roots of the tarot through literature, much earlier than 1800, there's a few historical notes: The D'Estes family of Fererra in the 1400s ordered boatloads of French romance literature related to the Charlemagne and Arthurian sagas, Romance of the Rose, Heloise and Abelard, as well as Greek and Latin literature.
Sorry if I cannot suggest anything else helpful.
Mari H.
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The Tarot in the 21st Century thread was originally posted on 26 Sep 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
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