A challenge!!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Oct 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

mirja crimson	23 Oct 2002
I have discovered a wonderful way to express openly and publicy my views on Tarot while being totally heard out and not put down mid-sentence! (My friends, being strict and quite naive Christians, are not very accepting of this interest of mine, many ask, Do you STILL do that?) I have taken the challenge of doing an agrumentative paper/presentation of Tarot. My question/argument is: Does Tarot deserve the representation it has recieved from mainstream America? Mu hahaha, my chance to fight against the narrow-minded ignornant people that cast Tarot in with witchcraft of the Puritan age. Let me tell them something! But, low and behold, I need help. Information, advice, opinions, past threads, anything will be of use! Come on Tarot buffs, take my challenge, and stand with me for the honor of Tarot!!

zorya	24 Oct 2002
i would emphasize the self-awareness and growth angle (mary greer's books should be of some help), and stay away from the fortune telling angle. i do believe the cards can tell us what is likely to happen in the future (if things continue on their current path) but i don't think that would help your argument. can't wait to hear how it goes!

Woof	24 Oct 2002
Could you help supply an argument for friends who are strict athiests who believe that anything beyond hard science is pure fertilizer and condescend to those who believe in something more? I'm tired of hiding my interest for fear of being labeled a gullible new age air head by my friends/family. Woof

Keslynn	24 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by mirja crimson Mu hahaha, my chance to fight against the narrow-minded ignornant people that cast Tarot in with witchcraft of the Puritan age. Let me tell them something! Be careful about that whole Puritan thing. It's not particularly accurate. In England, where the Puritans were most rampant, there were much less executions of people for witchcraft. If you would like some good historical sources on tarot and witchcraft, I can recommend quite a few. However, I must point out that in the witch trials of the early modern period, tarot was never used as a reason to suspect someone. The main reason was suspected maleficia, or evildoing, usually involving making people sick or killing livestock. :) Kes

nina	24 Oct 2002
Hello, Kes you're reminding me of the Robin Williams bit where he says that the reason people in the Northeast are so hard to get along with is that their ancestors were "The Puritans- the only people on earth who were too uptight for The English." I would recommend "Meditations on the Tarot: A Guide to Christian Hermeticism" and there are quite a few books about Tarot's uses in psychotherapy (written by respectable, Ph.D. types) Also, dig up anything you can find about Tarot by Joseph Campbell- he's a beautifully persuasive writer and provocative thinker. I wish you the best. I still kind of hide my tarot habit from my more left-brain friends. -Nina

fairyhedgehog	24 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Woof Could you help supply an argument for friends who are strict athiests who believe that anything beyond hard science is pure fertilizer and condescend to those who believe in something more? I'm tired of hiding my interest for fear of being labeled a gullible new age air head by my friends/family. Woof Well, I am an atheist, so you can be an atheist and use tarot :) In my view your friends condescension is not a sign of their superior intellect but of a lack of understanding. My take on tarot is: The pictures have developed over a long period of time, and represent images and symbols that are important to the human psyche. In a spread the challenge for the reader is to take the card that has landed randomly in a particular meaning-position and weave a story that makes sense of the card, the position-meaning and the life of the querent. We are able to do this because of the way the human mind works to make sense of the world by making stories. The value of this is: Fun. We enjoy making up stories and it is healthy for us psychologically to do so. Creativity. We get used to looking at things in different ways and we become more creative at problem solving as well. Insight. By using this tool, we may come up with ideas and thoughts in relation to a situationthat might not otherwise have occurred to us. So we are not gullible new-age airheads but very creative people :) BTW, you don't have to share this view to put it to your friends. You could just say "Well, one way of looking at it is ..."

Kiama	24 Oct 2002
Mirja: You coudl also talk about all the different people who use the Tarot, in an attempt to try and show the reader of your presentation that nearly all who use it are using it to help others, or for their own self-growth, or just for fun. Show them that the Tarot is hardly ever used for bad things. Counselling with Tarot is just one use I can think of which is for helping others... You could also talk a bit about Tarot history, and explain that it started out not as anything bad or evil, but mainly as a game... Explain that the original symbols and images on the cards are pretty Catholic (They have a Pope for crying out loud, how more Catholic can you get??!!) ... Good luck! Kiama

Umbrae	24 Oct 2002
Personally, I think it best to back up. Why do even ‘’good Christians” go to card readers? Why has it survived the onslaught of Christian judgement? http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/articles/reading_for_others.html

dangerdork	24 Oct 2002
Beautifully said, fairyhedgehog! I think all that applies for non-atheists too, even the secular ones ;) ! Mirja, you also might want to look at Jung's writings on archetypes and synchronicity, as a companion to the Joseph Campbell. If you want to avoid the spiritual arguments altogether, you could go for the whole cultural anthropology angle. The situations and principles represented on the cards are universal across all cultures and eras. Especially when looking comparitively at many decks, the tarot is worth study as a portrayal of many universal elements of the human condition -- as seen through the eyes of different cultures in different historical contexts. And isn't it uniquely American to blend together so many diverse cultural perspectives in search of a shared commonality? The tarot as an artistic tradition does just that.

Thirteen	24 Oct 2002
I'd recommend checking out Connolly's first book to see how she defends her Christian-tarot reading--and making up a page of color copies of some of her cards--and other Christian friendly decks. I find that strict Christians soften considerably toward the tarot when they get a look at cards that are a cross between a stained-glass window and a Christian-friendly greeting card ;) Put it another way--it's easy to fear and hate a deck which has PENTACLES as one of the suits, not to mention a skeletal death and a big nasty devil (and though Kiama has a point about Catholicism, there are pleny of "strict Christians" who consider Catholicism not much above devil-worship, so I don't know if that argument will do much good. The Pope, to some Christians, is as demonic as the Green-Man. Depends on what denomination your friends are). But it's much harder for such Christians to object, fear and worry for your soul if the images in the deck are ones they themselves are drawn to. As with Connolly's deck and some others. So I'd be sure to download and color copy such images to go with your written argument. Good luck! And remember, in the end, the tarot, your religious choices, etc, need no defending.

Laurel	24 Oct 2002
I'd look at the work of Paul Foster Case and BOTA, who are most definately a magical Christian order that use tarot as spiritual tool, in a devoted way. Laurel

mirja crimson	24 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Keslynn However, I must point out that in the witch trials of the early modern period, tarot was never used as a reason to suspect someone. The main reason was suspected maleficia, or evildoing, usually involving making people sick or killing livestock. :) Kes That's exactly what I mean. I know that Tarot has nothing to do with witchcraft and the Puritans and the Salem witch trials and the like. But people I know, when I have asked them about Tarot or mentioned, immediately come back and tell me that I'm doing witchcraft and they hung people for things like that etc. I want to accurately and calmly refute them, that is what my comment meant.

DeLani	31 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by nina Also, dig up anything you can find about Tarot by Joseph Campbell- he's a beautifully persuasive writer and provocative thinker. \-Nina [/b] I love Joseph Campbell! When/if I ever do my own deck, I want his face on the Hierophant (and Timothy Leary on the Hanged Man - but that's a different story). But I don't think he ever wrote anything about the tarot. There is a book by him and someone else, I think called "Tarot Revelations" (?) but it is AWFUL. Hard to read (this coming from a total bookworm) and downright undecipherable. I never could figure out what point was trying to be made. If you know of another book either by him, or from a Campbellian (?) perspective, let me know! I am a devoted student of his.

StargazerLily	31 Oct 2002
I don't mean to be too negative here, and I think everyone has given VERY good and intelligent suggestions--but here is my experience: Christians believe that, if Tarot even "works", the force behind it is demons. Even if you use it for good, it's all demons, demons, demons doing anything they can do to lure you away from God. I'm not saying ALL Christians are like this (as Laurel and Thirteen mentioned in their posts), but I've never met one who isn't and no matter how intelligent and clear-headed and irrefutable your arguments are, they will stick to their demon obsession. I am genuinely interested in how your essay goes over with your friends. Be sure to post the outcome!!

Umbrae	31 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by mirja crimson ...I'm doing witchcraft and they hung people for things like that etc. LOL...You may want to remind them. It is 2002. Even in Arizona, they do not hang folks for that anymore. Used to be, that a hot-dog on Friday would land you in purgatory. Just remind the good Christian folk, that Adultery would earn you a death by stoning. Jim and Tammy Faye are still kicking...you may want to ask them, how many of them adhere to the old laws (Exodus – Leviticus – Deuteronomy)? Do they eat pork? It is against the laws. Oh…I see – old testament. So have them read Matthew 5:17 to you – out loud. In fact you may want to bone up on Matthew…It has all the ammo you need to keep uninformed Christians in their place.

Keslynn	31 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by StargazerLily I'm not saying ALL Christians are like this (as Laurel and Thirteen mentioned in their posts), but I've never met one who isn't and no matter how intelligent and clear-headed and irrefutable your arguments are, they will stick to their demon obsession. If that's all the experience you've had with Christians and tarot, then you're in for a pleasant treat! :) Several of us here are Christians and we (obviously) enjoy tarot. :) Kes

StargazerLily	31 Oct 2002
I have actually read several posts on here from Christians and you are right, it IS a pleasant surprise. Very refreshing! :)

Fuzzmello	31 Oct 2002
Why not ask them if any of them ever think they're courting the devil by use the planting tables in the Old Farmer's Almanac? You don't have to tell them that the basis for these tables came from "crones" who logged things like weather changes and seasonal differences from year to year using the phases of the moon as their time standard. This practice began in Scandinavia and was well-established in England centuries before the Puritans brought it to the new land. It's an example of witchcraft that proved so useful that the negative trappings of its origins were conveniently forgotten. All those "crones" were doing was creating a system with which to read the signs (in that case, weather and seasons) by passing on their experience. Fuzz

SlyR	01 Nov 2002
I just wanted to announce that I'm a very strict Christian who also happens to be a lover of the Cabbala & Tarot. The reason Christians adhere so vehemently to the "demonic forces" argument is that it's a catch-all argument for all things occult, intended to discourage Christians from seeking esoteric knowledge that is, at best, tangentally aligned with the teachings of their faith. This is understandable, but unfortunately it creates an environment of misunderstanding. Christians are taught that the Bible is infallible, then they are taught that "witchcraft" is condemned in the Bible. Maybe so, but the definition of "witchcraft" is one that is best left to occult theorists, not pastors with no greater an understanding of the occult than any lay person. Hence, Tarot gets lumped in with Wicca, New Age, Astrology, TM, Palmistry, Ouija, and God knows what else. Just because I believe in the wisdom contained in Tarot doesn't mean I'm an X-files type who'll accept anything. I choose to differentiate between what I "want to believe" and what I am quite willing to "actually believe." My church (and I mean my human church leadership) doesn't quite grasp this. That's okay. "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." The last thing I like to see is the attitude, so typical in Wiccan circles, that "Christians hate us, therefore we look down our noses at anything Christian." Christianity is just a path like any other. Lying at the very heart of it is the premise that there is no other path. Those who seek other paths take this personally. We should all, Christians and others, lighten up already. Jeez, I really went off there for a second. Anyhow, just wanted to contribute a pro-Christian / pro-Tarot post for what it's worth. Yes, as someone said earlier, we're out here. And I might be the biggest fundementalist in this group. I still use the Tarot. God blessed us with it as a gift - a resource. He tends to do those things, and I for one tend to believe that he takes it personally when we shun knowledge that He has made available for us just because it might be uncomfortably unfamiliar.

Diana	01 Nov 2002
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Diana	01 Nov 2002
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Alex	01 Nov 2002
techinique. That helps for human sciences folks. Other science folks I don't know cause they despise human sciences as well; but these people, if you told they you're a psycholanalist, they still would make faces at ya. Reality is, can't please everybody. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Woof Could you help supply an argument for friends who are strict athiests who believe that anything beyond hard science is pure fertilizer and condescend to those who believe in something more? I'm tired of hiding my interest for fear of being labeled a gullible new age air head by my friends/family. Woof

dangerdork	01 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana The word "uniquely" here irks me somewhat. :( Or should I just ignore it and stop picking nits? No, you're right. I think maybe our culture is unique in having the intermingling of such extensive diversity as a foundation of the culture rather than as a refinement. The Japanese for instance have always been great at incorporating the best ideas from other cultures into their own -- but they were always building on an existing foundation. I agree, one of my own pet peeves is misuse of the word "unique," so thanks for pointing tht out. What an interesting and (hehehe) DIVERSE thread this has become!

Kiama	01 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana There's no proof of this. There are no written historical facts pointing one way or the other. We have the Steele Sermon, detailing the game of Tarrochi, and teh cards within it. Kiama

Jewel	01 Nov 2002
I personally really liked the suggestions of taking the cultural and anthropoligical approach to this issue. The archetypes would fit in very nicely as they are universal in nature. Angeles Arien has done some work in the cultural/ anthropolical arena. I also really liked the suggestions about stating the varied uses of the tarot. Story telling (i.e developing actual stories not a reading necessarily) is another form of how tarot can enhance creativity. I would not shy away from divination as Tarot is also used for this, I simply would not focus on it, give it the same amount of attention as other uses of tarot. If you go to the site of the Portal Tarot you will see that Tarot has also been used as a form of therapy. As to the religious connections ... hmmmmm ... it is true that many pagans and new agers use tarot, but as pointed out by other members of this forum not everyone using tarot falls into the classification of earth based religions. We have a wide and beautiful spectrum of members. I would not address this issue in this particular essay. I would stick to the history, which is controversial enough in its own right. Through that history you will touch on bit of everything. Just report it factually not emotionally and make sure and provide a nice long bibliography. SlyR I really appreciate your perspective, and I agree that it is time for us pagans and Christians alike to learn to get along and accept our differences in opinion. Like you said it has to work both ways ... and this should have nothing to do with the Tarot in any case.

Lee	01 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana There's no proof of this. There are no written historical facts pointing one way or the other. According to the "TarotL History Information Sheet," "Written records tell that the tarot was regularly used to play a card game similar to bridge. The game was popular throughout much of Europe for centuries and is still played today, particularly in France ... Although it is possible that tarot cards might also have been used for other purposes, there is no clear evidence of such use until long after the cards were invented ... there are no references connecting tarot with ... divination until the 18th century." While Diana may be technically correct that there is no "proof," I think it's incorrect to say "there are no written historical facts pointing one way or the other." It seems to me that the numerous historical records of tarot as a game, and the lack of any historical records indicating use in divination until centuries later, certainly do point in the direction of tarot having been used initially as a game. -- Lee

Diana	01 Nov 2002
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The A challenge!! thread was originally posted on 23 Oct 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.