Religion?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Oct 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

mirja crimson	14 Oct 2002
Do you consider Tarot a religion or belief system? Where do you believe the answers within the cards come from?

Maan	14 Oct 2002
I consider the tarot to be a tool. The answers ly within me and the tarot is a way to reach those answers. And what do you think?

Sinta	14 Oct 2002
I believe the Tarot is as Maan has said, a tool. I wonderful tool which reaches into the recess of the mind and subconcious, and with the cards imagery it calls forth a bit of the past, a thought, dream, vision etc, that we might've forgotten. I personally believe there is nothing at all spiritual about the tarot, although reoccuring cards and such, are still unexplained to me ;) I think it's all in the mind. More like a tool of Pyschology where the therapist shows you different images and asks you what it means to you. That is what I believe about tarot... pyschology and perhaps a bit more. Intuition and Imagination ^_^

Laurel	14 Oct 2002
Tool. Practioners of an unlimited number of religions and belief systems enjoy working with the tarot. By itself, tarot is a "blank slate" ideologically. Laurel

Jeannette	14 Oct 2002
Add another vote for "tool" here, with the following addendum: One of the potential applications of tarot is as a "synthesizer" of belief systems -- that is, various belief systems can be correlated to tarot, "overlapping" them, as it were, to find the similarities and correspondences. For those of us who are "synthesists" by nature, tarot may be a de facto belief system, by virtue of the fact that tarot thus becomes the primary framework for our spiritual studies. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

mirja crimson	14 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Maan And what do you think? I'm not sure what I think. That's why I asked. I do believe it's a tool, but I think there may be more than just that. It may be that the cards are arranged by something or someone (aka God) to guide us. I believe it's like opening to a random Bible verse and reflecting on it, seeing how it answers your questions. (I used to be a strict Catholic and that practice worked quite well for me, so that analogy makes a lot of sense to me) But that brings another question- if it is just a tool and not a belief system, what are your beliefs? Which religions are accepting of Tarot? I know Christianity isn't.

Thirteen	14 Oct 2002
Actually, it depends on which branch of Christianity. There is, afterall, the Connolly deck out there which is a very Christian deck--soft, new-age Christian, but unquestionably Christian. In her book, Connolly even recommends a Christian style prayer to be said before laying out the cards. I think, by the way, that Tarot is a "Tool" but depending on the deck, it can certainly reflect, very potently, a particular religious ideology. Witness Connolly, and to the opposite side, the Witches Tarot and other very pagan decks like Greenwood and Sacred Circle. Witness, for that matter, Rider-Waite which has a good deal of Judeo-Christian imagry. Tarot is not a religion, but the images and symbols a deck choses to use reflect a religious as well as cultural and philosophical bias. That's why there are so many decks--folk disagreeing on images and intepetations (as a Catholic, for example, do you have any problem with a deck that has "The Pope" as one of its cards, or does this offend you in some way and you'd rather have the card labeled 'Hierophant"?). People pick decks that speak to them and their religious/philosophical ideologies. And they shy away from decks that offend their religious/philosophical ideologies. That said, religions that are not opposed to Tarot are any New Age religions, Pagan and very liberal Judeo-Christian sects. I suspect that Hindus and Buddists would have no objection either. Obviously, any conservative Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions would disappove, probably very strongly.

Sinta	14 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by mirja crimson Which religions are accepting of Tarot? I know Christianity isn't. Lots of religions impose thing and say, oh no that's bad... da da da da da da... but sometimes they just dont look at what they have accused and try to understand it.... I for one was brought up as a Christian and still have my beliefs vased on it... I have no religion.. just a way of life... I do things because I believe it is so... I do not have to please anyone else but myself in that. My real belief is what i call "Sea". It contains all i believe in. So many here do come from different religions and i know there are some christians here as well... i also know that in some parts some preachers are using the tarot to spread the word of God to the new age. We accept things. "Believe nothing, O Monks, merely because you have been told it...or because it is traditional, or because you yourselves have imagined it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings--that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide." - Buddah

Kyrielle	14 Oct 2002
The magic's in you -- tools like the tarot reflect it back so you can see what's going on from another viewpoint, but ultimately it's not the cards that have the power, it's you. -- Kyrielle

wavebreaker	14 Oct 2002
I too think tarot is just a tool; the magic, or whatever you'd like to call it, is in the person using the tarot (or the runes, or the pendulum, or whatever other tool you'd like to use).

mirja crimson	14 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen (as a Catholic, for example, do you have any problem with a deck that has "The Pope" as one of its cards, or does this offend you in some way and you'd rather have the card labeled 'Hierophant"?). Well, actually, I'm no longer Catholic. I don't have a religion right now, and I'm searching for my beliefs. I just label myself "searching." Thank you all so much for the responses, you all have helped me a lot!!! I love how these forums open my mind and make me realize new things that didn't even occur to me. [hmmm, kind of like tarot =D] Thank you!

Teal	14 Oct 2002
I see tarot as a tool, also. But I think maybe there's more to it than just a tool in the ordinary sense of the word. I've had a lot of spiritual tools I've used, but this has been a much different experience for me. For the first week or so, I dreamed tarot exclusively. I found that almost disturbing. I don't usually remember my dreams and I wasn't any more intense on learning tarot than I've been on learning anything else in my life, so I didn't really know why------and still don't-------this would happen. So I think if there's nothing spiritual actually going on with the cards, and if it's just a prompt to the subconscious, it's darned powerful prompting! As for it being a religious or spiritual belief system-----it's not that for me at all. I'm not religious but do follow a very spiritual path. Tarot is not a part of the spiritual belief system for me. It's a tool, as I said.

Teranar	14 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sinta ... I have no religion.. just a way of life... I do things because I believe it is so... I do not have to please anyone else but myself in that. My real belief is what i call "Sea". It contains all i believe in. That's quite similar to how I am now... it always freaks me out a little when someone feels similar to me... But my beliefs is that tarot comibines the energy from you, your surroundings, and what you are reading to tell you something, usually something important. That is why when your readings are blocked they come out not making any sense, because it is like they are scrambled. In the case of christianaty vs. tarot, a friend of mine believes that god tells you how to help the person you're reading through the cards just like he sent Jesus to help all of humanity. From the viewpoint of christianaty saying it like that tarot makes perfect sense in allowing it. I am not christian but was raised druidic-christian I have never seen why christians have shunned tarot.

jmd	14 Oct 2002
Mirja Crimson asked 'Do you consider Tarot a religion or belief system? Where do you believe the answers within the cards come from?' In the usual sense of the word 'religion', Tarot cannot be such, for it doesn't, of its own, have any specified dogma (without this wonderful word's pejorative connotations), nor any inherent ritualistic or initiatory practices. To be sure, Tarot, if used and studied regularly, does re-connect one to the spiritual. In this rarer sense of the word (consistent with its possible etymology), then Tarot has an unquestionable religious element. In my view, there is another way in which Tarot is also religious: the cards are not just random bits of ink upon random bits of cardboard, but are a creatively made cohesive whole. As such, they are produced by human beings in 'touch' with the spiritual dimension of this wonderful world - ie, the spiritual, with or without the conscious awareness of the artist, weaves itself through the creative act. In answering the second question of the original post, then, an aspect of the spiritual domain inevitably comes to play in the very act of understanding the spread to be read. You may be interested to also read a number of older threads, such as 'What makes Tarot work?' in Talking Tarot.

Umbrae	14 Oct 2002
I wish I could remember where I found this. This is not my writing, but I find it quite appropriate. “Purpose of Tarot Cards: Tarot cards are a tool for gaining insight into the mind, in cases where normal introspection is blocked by repression and self-censorship mechanisms. Sometimes, simply talking to another person is sufficient to bypass these mechanisms--the other person can see and reveal to us what we hide from ourselves. In other cases, the other person's repression and self-censorship mechanisms are as much a problem as our own--it is for these cases that Tarot cards are particularly useful. The advantage of using Tarot cards versus other props--such as tea leaves, or Rorschach ink blots, or cards other than Tarot cards, or the querent's palm, to cite just a few examples--is that Tarot cards provide a better map of the human condition than these other props.”

nina	14 Oct 2002
Hello, I am a Christian (granted, a very liberal-minded one) who uses tarot. I think when approached with modesty and reverence, the tarot just makes it a little easier for God to give you a little bit of a hint. Spending time on it with the right attitude, like spending time each day praying, can be a very helpful reminder to keep your mind on higher and deeper things than your daily life usually brings to your attention. Like anything in this world, it can be harmful as well as helpful. I know people who have used it to manipulate or scare others for their own amusement. In my opinion (and it's just my opinion, don't anyone overeact), it is an important aspect of reading to have some sense of a higher power outside yourself who is helping to guide the cards. It doesn't have to be traditional belief system, but it is something greater than just one person's energy. -Nina

Laurel	16 Oct 2002
My spiritual beliefs started with Jonathan Livingston Seagull as a very small child and have evolved along a very wonderous journey where I've learned so much from a diversity of religions and sacred scripture. I can't typify what I believe or how the tarot relates to it all very easily. All I can say is that JMD's post struck me as particularly profound on the matter. Laurel

MystiqueMoonlight	16 Oct 2002
Quite simply Tarot is like a book of Divine Wisdom (hence the phrase divination) I wouldn't exactly say it is a religion, but it is certainly more than a tool. Perhaps one could equate as the bible is to christianity, or the koran to Islam. The only important point here is the Tarot is universal and non specific to any colour, crede, sexuality, religion or dogma. Certainly as Thirteen has pointed out the Tarot can be made to look specific to a religion (however I wouldn't call paganism new age it's been around long before christianity)

Sinta	16 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight The only important point here is the Tarot is universal and non specific to any colour, crede, sexuality, religion or dogma. That's what interests me the most. It's a tool all religions seem to share. A place where all religions can commune.. like this forum. I find it wonderful. I'm a christian but i can't talk about my beliefs of the sea in a christian forum, for i know i will then be criticized, whereas here, people understand. People here are more accepting... why, because we have things in common. The tarot.

ChrisTheObscure	16 Oct 2002
I think tarot is a tool, albeit a very spiritual one. I have grown to believe in a vast, collective unconscious, something somewhat like a large sea or ocean that we're all wading in. We're all a part of it but some of us are more deeply aware of it than others. Tarot is kind of like scuba diving, it allows one to become more immersed in this spiritual sea. That's why, I believe, when I read in public places with lots of people around, my readings are usually more accurate and the insights more profound - it's like I'm connecting or tapping into the energy of everyone around me. C.

Red Emma	16 Oct 2002
The psychologist, Carl Jung, called it the collective unconsciousness. The physicist, Albert Einstein, called it quantum mechanics. Today, both religious leaders and eminent physicists say it's where science and religion meet. I guess it's one of my favorite themes in this forum. When physicists were beginning to unlock the secrets of the nucleus of the atom, they expected to find matter. They found instead pure energy. They further believe that every atom of energy in this universe is connected to every other atom. Which I suspect is a good description of the collective unconscious. Tarot taps into this web of consciousness. How or why, I don't know, but through this, it can bring us insights into our lives. Whether I consider it a religion, depends on your definition of religion. I think I separate Religion and Spirituality. To me, religion is an organized group of people who have set down their rules for living, frequently saying, "If you do not follow our rules you will be shunned on earth by the holy, and spend eternity buring in hell." To me, spirituality is one's independent quest to find the Holy in our lives, and live a productive and compassionate life. Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." In Wicca the "gospel" is, "Do as you will, but harm no one." Not that far apart! Okay, I got a bit windy. Sorry about that. Blessed Be, Red Emma

MeeWah	17 Oct 2002
Religion refers to an organized body of dogma that comprises a set of beliefs as described by a particular group of its adherents. Its purpose is to teach &/or to enhance the individual spirituality. Tarot has its own organized body of knowledge as described by its different schools of knowledge. Any extended course of study, whether formal or informal, invariably leads to a spiritual understanding because of the nature of its wisdom. I agree with JMD for the reasons he cited that its impact can be religious. The difference between religion & Tarot is that Tarot is inherently neutral; lends itself to any religious background by the universality of its symbolism. Religion can be a tool of spiritual knowledge but is oft limited by the boundaries of its ideology. Tarot is a tool that accesses a boundless universal knowledge & understanding. Personally, Tarot expresses an aspect of the personal belief & of the Divine. It demonstrates a cosmic order & a connection with all of creation that make perfect sense. In this way, I agree with Red Emma.

Zhritza	17 Oct 2002
I was raised Reform Jewish, with a belief in a very abstract but very constant God. In Reform and Conservative Judaism one has a lot of freedom to define God however they want to for themselves. While I feel no less Jewish for it (Judaism is a very cultural and sociological thing), I no longer really believe in a higher power outside of humanity. The biggest impact of this on my life is that I no longer pray, and when I go to synagogue, I say or sing the prayers in Hebrew and it gives me comfort and peace; but at this point, that is because it is something I have done all my life with my family and with our friends who are Jewish, and because I feel connected to all of Jewry, past, present, and future. Any ritualistic or grateful activities I engage in is all about human beings now. I have a sort of nascent, half-baked belief in a Jungian collective unconsciousness, kind of like an oversoul; I think that we generate energy with our lives and our actions, and in some way, others can tap into that energy. I feel like there's a big pool of it somewhere that never depletes; or maybe it is all around us. I know that I have felt an intense "presence" that could not be explained at various points in my life, so maybe this oversoul thingy is more concentrated in certain places or at particular times. Some people might see this as a form of agnosticism rather than atheism. Anyway, before I get too off track, I think that if this thing exists, we can tap into it very effectively with tarot, because our individual subconscious minds are much more in touch with it than our conscious minds are. Tarot is especially well-suited to tapping into it because tarot includes a lot of archetypal images that the oversoul, and by extension our subconscious minds, recognize(s) extremely easily. Okay, I'm done. :D EDIT: In summation, yes, Tool.

starr	17 Oct 2002
Another vote for tool Starr

Babette	17 Oct 2002
I believe that Tarot is a Tool. Specifically it is a Tool of the Devil. Since I am a Satanist, Tarot is the ideal Tool for me. The Pentacles are a Testament to the Power of the Dark Lord.

Sinta	17 Oct 2002
As is the quote above, mirja. Each person has their own opinion on the tarot. I mean as you can see we have a diverse collection of religions in this forum, all combined by the tarot.. *shrugs* and i dont really mind at all how some look at it. Each to their own. ;) They can just be cards if you want them to be.. or something more.

Kiama	17 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Babette I believe that Tarot is a Tool. Specifically it is a Tool of the Devil. Since I am a Satanist, Tarot is the ideal Tool for me. The Pentacles are a Testament to the Power of the Dark Lord. I know quite a few Satanists who would be a bit annoyed about what you just said Babette. Frequency, where are ya?!!! Satanists don't worship the devil: That's devil-worshipers who do that. Satanists follow the teachings of Anton Le Vey. Please don't make the mistake of falling into the trap of mixing the two up. Kiama

Babette	17 Oct 2002
As far as I know Satan = Devil = Shaitan = Dark Lord. I call Him by All His Names. Are these different things?

Kiama	17 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Babette As far as I know Satan = Devil = Shaitan = Dark Lord. I call Him by All His Names. Are these different things? Frequency would pobably have a better asnwer than me, cuz I'm not Satanist. But Satanists who follow Le Vey do not worhsip the devil. They don't worhsip anybody. Kiama

MystiqueMoonlight	17 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Babette As far as I know Satan = Devil = Shaitan = Dark Lord. I call Him by All His Names. Are these different things? If you worship the devil which devil do you worship? As Kiama has already pointed out you cannot be a Satanist because a true Satanist would never use the word devil Now I have heard the pentacles theory you briefly mention. Can you explain it to everybody (that is how the pentacles are a testament to the....er....dark lord) I am sure the members would be very interested?

mirja crimson	17 Oct 2002
I agree. True satanists don't have anyone higher than themselves. You can go to the official Satanism website to learn more; unfortunately I don't have the web address handy. But what was the Pentacles thing you were referring to? I don't know much about that. It's fine that you call the Devil by all his names, but don't call yourself a satanist if you worship the Devil. Two different things. Thank you for replying to my post everyone!

Zhritza	18 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight Can you explain it to everybody (that is how the pentacles are a testament to the....er....dark lord) *ROFL* :D *snort, guffaw*

MystiqueMoonlight	18 Oct 2002
What happened to this girl Babette })? Is she still around? I noticed she posted a reply in the thread "A prayer" but then when I went there no post was to be found :confused: I think she may be just a little misguided and I hope she returns to the forum

Sinta	18 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight What happened to this girl Babette })? Is she still around? I noticed she posted a reply in the thread "A prayer" but then when I went there no post was to be found :confused: I believe that post was deleted... I'm not sure, or maybe it was another one of hers.. Perhaps the one in the thread "when a dream comes true"

Laurel	18 Oct 2002
If Babette is sincere and not someone playing a joke on us all, I do hope she sticks around. I'd be interested in hearing her perspective, as long as its what she honestly believes. For me, anyone who worships the devil by the name Satan or other and -considers themselves a Satanist- is one. LaVey didn't coin the term, and its applied as something as a misnomer to COS-style Church of Satan but they are nevertheless a recognized religion and I have no problems with any COS or offshoot of the COS considering themselves Satanists and using the title. I just don't think they have the right to insist devil-worshippers can't use it. Of course, I'm still at a loss to appreciate ~why~ someone would worship "devils" as I personally define them and wouldn't mind talking to someone some day who could explain it all to me so I understood better even if I continued to disagree. Within a week (finally!!!!) I'll know whether or not I'm a Setian I*, aka an accepted member of the Temple of Set. Had my interview with a member of the priesthood after walking a long journey and now I'm down to the wire. Technically, the Temple of Set is an offshoot of the Church of Satan, and lables itself as a "satanic" organization, but I don't worship Satan and don't worship Satan or Set... I think gods are created and not born and only aspects of human consciousness manifesting in the higher kabbalistic worlds except for the supernal cosmic force from which all was created, including the four worlds. I don't consider the tarot as a tool for the devil, or a tool of the supernal divine in any shade of black, white, grey. I consider the tarot as a tool for Humans that can aid them on their journey to reach communion with the ineffable supernal divine.... or become gods themselves. Its that last part that makes me "satanic" and even "evil" or "destined to spend eternity in hell" in the eyes of most fundamentalists Christians. So yes, Babette, please tell us more. I have horizons to expand. :)

cyan	19 Oct 2002
Tarot is something different to each person who uses it. For me Tarot is a path suddenly found while i was stumbling in the wilderness. It is a key to a door i have longed to open. it has led me into the places i have wanted to be all my life. I think it is a way of seeing things more clearly like getting glasses and wow, the world really looks amazing. yeah, i guess it is a tool but that is such a dry word for something as magical as Tarot.

Zhritza	19 Oct 2002
I'm going to start a thread about Satainism in Non-Tarot unless there already is one, because I have some questions about it...

Natas	23 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by mirja crimson I agree. True satanists don't have anyone higher than themselves. You can go to the official Satanism website to learn more; unfortunately I don't have the web address handy. But what was the Pentacles thing you were referring to? I don't know much about that. It's fine that you call the Devil by all his names, but don't call yourself a satanist if you worship the Devil. Two different things. Thank you for replying to my post everyone! Yes Mirja, you are correct. A true Satanist does not worship the devil or Satan, but instead worship's HIMSELF. HE is his own GOD. HE follows the teachings and philosphy set forth in The Satanic Bible, by Anton LeVay. Satan is used at a metaphor for man's dark side. Being a Satanist myself, I do take offense when someone goes around calling themselves a Satanist, and they saying that they worship the "Dark Lord", or walk around spewing untruths about Satanists. For "correct" and "true" information on what Satanism "really" is visit the office Church of Satan website. www.churchofsatan.com

ihcoyc	23 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by mirja crimson Which religions are accepting of Tarot? I know Christianity isn't. FWIW, not all Christians are fundamentalists, Roman Catholics, or members of some other group that has condemns Tarot as a matter of doctrine. I am no theologian, but I do know the Bible has several instances of people casting lots to make decisions. I view Tarot as a more elaborate version of the same procedure.

Diana	24 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Natas Satan is used at a metaphor for man's dark side. Being a Satanist myself, I do take offense when someone goes around calling themselves a Satanist, and they saying that they worship the "Dark Lord", or walk around spewing untruths about Satanists. I can understand that this gets on your nerves. But what must a person call themselves if they DO worship Satan and the Dark Lord? They are Satanists too. Although they do not belong to the Church of Satan. And their beliefs are very different. It is a word that covers a lot of things.

wavebreaker	24 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by ihcoyc FWIW, not all Christians are fundamentalists, Roman Catholics, or members of some other group that has condemns Tarot as a matter of doctrine. Not even all Roman Catholics condemn tarot. My aunt is a Roman Catholic and a professional tarot reader. ;) I suppose it all boils down to how someone interprets the bible. I'm sure both opponents and proponents of tarot will find proof in it to support their view. ;)

Natas	24 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana I can understand that this gets on your nerves. But what must a person call themselves if they DO worship Satan and the Dark Lord? They are Satanists too. Although they do not belong to the Church of Satan. And their beliefs are very different. It is a word that covers a lot of things. There are groups such as the Temple of Set, and the Luciferians that are "Devil Worishpers" in the true sense. They believe that Satan is and actual entity, and they worship him.

bonnycat	26 Oct 2003
As has already been said, for me tarot is part of my religion ie it is a way of conecting to the divine. That is not to say every reading I has a religous meaning but it is a religous act. Before I start I always take the time to connect with the part of me that is divine. Therefor my view is that it is a spirtual tool that is up to the indivdual to take as far as they wish.

The Religion? thread was originally posted on 14 Oct 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.