Swords being fire?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Oct 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

AmounrA	15 Oct 2002
I have been thinking lately about the elemental links with the suits. Particulary the swords being linked to air , and wands as fire. I keep getting the image of a revolving sword, ablaze, as an ace of swords. Fire seems a more apt element for a sword. Also, as wands are made from wood/trees, and trees are something I would connect to the air [there breathing in carbon , and blowing in the wind etc]. I am wondering what others think about the elemental links with these two suits?

Laurel	15 Oct 2002
Those dang flaming swords. On a gut, instinctual, raw, personal level... I see flaming swords too, and wands commanding air. I see Raphael holding the Chalice on the ace of Cups and Gabriel blowing the trumpet on the ace of Wands. When I first became involved in occult studies and described all of this to my study partner, he flatly told me I was wrong. Since then, I've seen the topic come up over and over again. Too many people have a sense of fire/swords-air/wands and/or Raphael/Water- Gabriel/Air for these attributions to be ~wrong~... they just aren't the attributions the Golden Dawn created. The revelation finally hit me after a brief adventure into Chaos magic ala Phil Hine and Peter Carroll. Both attributions are right. Any attribution you believe in, is right. Fiery swords have as much mythical and pyschological "rightness" as Airy swords. But its a matter of choice and some people are fire sword people and some people are air sword people and some people can switch. I'm curious why its that way, but it just is. LOL. Laurel

ihcoyc	15 Oct 2002
If I were starting from scratch, I'd probably have kept Swords as air; Swords to me are originally épées, and the word to me suggests thinness and lightness. On the other hand, I'd probably be strongly tempted to make Clubs into Earth, and Coins into Fire. After all, the Club is depicted on the Ace as a green, freshly cut and growing log; and Coins were originally minted from hot sheet metal with hammer and die, or cast in molds. What we have here is an older cartomancy tradition that doesn't map easily into the four elements of ceremonial magic. Wands are business, swords are trouble, cups are love and coins are money largely because these attributions seemed intuitive to Etteilla, and I can certainly see where he's coming from. I don't think he really cared deeply about elemental attributions. The Golden Dawn saw the number 4, and immediately thought "four elements," and tried to map the inherited system into ceremonial magic, and ended up with a mixed system.

ChrisTheObscure	15 Oct 2002
I've always seen swords as air...but a big part of that, I think, is the Ace of Swords in the Haindl Deck, which is what drew me to Tarot in the first place. In that card, a single sword appears to materialise in a cloud of fog. C.

Scorpion	15 Oct 2002
I started with Swords as Air and Wands as Fire and it made sense to me: I link Swords with thought so the air attrbution worked when aligned with intellect. Similarly, fiery Wands make me think of creative energy - perhaps a little too blunt and enthusiastic. Then I came across some decks that reversed this and I just don't seem to be able to work with them. I did read somewhere that one deck creator (Witches Tarot?) doesn't feel comfortable with Wands as Fire because that would mean that the element could destroy the vessel that contained it, whereas Swords are forged in the heat of the fire. I can understand that, but I still can't work with Swords/Fire and Wands/Air!

Thirteen	15 Oct 2002
Wasn't there just a long-*ssed thread on this? It keeps coming up. Maybe it should be added to our FAQ list. Answer is: Which-ever way seems right to you, that's the way it oughta be--but as most decks adhere to RW, and RW has swords/air, fire/wands, you're going to have a tough time finding neutral or opposite decks. They're out there, there just aren't as many. I won't go into the reasoning for swords/fire, wands/air--as I'm sure other will offer up those--and past threads on this topic have plenty of thoughts on the subject. But, briefly.... Reasoning for Swords as air--they cut, like words, interact one ringing against the another, like words, whistling through the wind--creating their own breeze as they swing by. They can be cool, like air--and like thought and reason, which the element of air signifies. They symbolize justice--double sided, cruel but fair, distant and coldly logical--not warm or passionate like fire. They reflect light, but give off none of their own. Reasoning for wands as fire--well, once upon a time no one knew wood had anything to do with air--and it doesn't if you've cut it down and form it into a wand ;) The idea is that it can burn--and give off light, heat and energy. After all, you wouldn't throw a sword upon the hearth to keep you warm at night, would you? And "flaming swords" aside, you wouldn't use it to light your way in the dark. Remember, wands aren't just "fire" but LIGHT. And that, too, relates to trees (since we're going there) which soak in the light via photosynthesis--light is what makes them branch out. Passion, energy, warmth, and the creativity to grow in many different directions. To me, that's warm, living wood--not cold steel.

WhiteDrag0n	15 Oct 2002
I see swords as an instrument of change and force, hince fire. And wands of air equated with trees and life (Breathing in etc).

Umbrae	15 Oct 2002
I have always seen Swords as spring/air/east. From trouble, comes new growth - spring = air. Wands are action - Summer/fire/south, the heat of the summer when we get things done in time for the harvest (Cups) so we are ready for winter (Pentacles).

John	16 Oct 2002
It's all arbitrary. A. E. Waite decided to make these associations and his deck became popular so here we are. Swords may just as well have been associated with jello and wands with whipped cream. It just didn't turn out that way. There is no reasoning here. There is no right or wrong answer. It's the result of a historical fluke and the power that tradition holds over human minds.

Umbrae	16 Oct 2002
Court de Gebelin in Monde Primitif (1776?) first assigned meanings to the suits, these were ‘confirmed’ by De Mellet (1781?) as Swords represent royalty, cups the priesthood, coins as commerce, and Batons as agriculture.

John	16 Oct 2002
OK, like he said. Still, it's arbitrary and has no reasoning behind it whatsoever. Some guy made some associations and it stuck because there was no good reason to change it.

jmd	16 Oct 2002
Along with others who have contributed in this thread, I have made other posts in threads on the same subject - but let me add some thoughts. Firstly, unlike John, I do not consider that the attributions are arbitrary at all. Nor, on the other hand, do I think that their elemental attributions are intrinsic to the deck. They are not arbitrary in the sense that if one works with the four elements, one gains a progressive understanding of their various aspects. Fire certainly relates to passion, but there is also the pure element of Fire which is closely akin to what may be understood as the igniting force of Life. With the element of Air, there appears to be a clarity, and movement, implied - as with Light. These attributions seem to be far more than based on merely 'reasoning'. Rather, the reasoning comes to the fore as one seeks to explain or outline why an atttribution seems to be the case. In essence, however, there is an inherent quality which is experienced. When wanting to match the elements with the four suits - which is reasonable - one's direct experience does seem to come in to the attributions. As I mentioned in other threads, even Cups has been linked to Air. The question which needs to be answered, however, is whether it is the same aspect of the Espée or Sword which is held in the imaginative faculty when one is considering the element of Fire or Air. For me, Swords, in their entirety, are fiery objects. When the coldness of the steel or the sharpness of the blade only is considered, then it is precisely only that aspect - which is Air-like - which is being considered. Likewise, Staffs, as entire objects, are Wisdom-filled aery objects. When considering their smaller versions as Wands and the way these can be used in focussing or directing energy, then it is this fiery aspect only being considered at the time. AmounrA, if the image obtained is of a Fiery Sword, then it is this whole aspect which, in my opinion, needs to be included. That some decks have followed Golden Dawn or Waite elemental attributions remains those decks' allocations - not a reflection of the essence of the elements nor of the implements. As mentioned earlier, each implement can be considered in each elemental attribution - or with none!

Umbrae	16 Oct 2002
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7417

AmounrA	16 Oct 2002
Thanks for all these replies and pointers. Overall, from reading them, I am most happy that making the swords fire and wands air doesn't upset any of the rules of Tarot, and a deck with swords as fire is still regarded as genuine tarot..not a novalty. Before reading I was 50/50 about which way to go when viewing this issue.....now I am more like 90/10...and the more I think about this way of looking at swords and wands, the more happy I am with it:-)

Thirteen	16 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Court de Gebelin in Monde Primitif (1776?) first assigned meanings to the suits, these were ‘confirmed’ by De Mellet (1781?) as Swords represent royalty, cups the priesthood, coins as commerce, and Batons as agriculture. I didn't know this! Gives a very interesting and whole different feel to the suits. Thanks.

MeeWah	16 Oct 2002
AmounrA: My first acquaintance with Swords as Fire & Wands as Air was with the Nigel Jackson Tarot deck. For some reason, I have no problem seeing the switched associations with that deck; possibly because that is the way the deck was "designed". I have not read through the accompanying book (a small but hefty paperback) but .Jackson briefly refers to Pythagorean teachings, Italian & French cartomancy regarding the minor arcana of the deck. His Ace-Swords is a flaming sword held aloft by a hand issuing forth from clouds; set against a pyramid background from which there are 8 flaming yods sent out. The Ace-Staves (Wands) is an arrow held upright by a hand also issuing from clouds; set against a similar pyramid background of sky, wisps of clouds & tiny birds. Some cards of the deck can be seen here: www.themysticeye.com/pics/njackson.htm The Ace-Swords here: www.learntarot.com/njdesc.htm 'Tis a lovely watercolor deck.

Zhritza	17 Oct 2002
AmounrA, the Cat People also has fire for swords and air for wands (the book talks about the "Fire People" and the "Wind People"). The colors of the suits somewhat correspond elementally to this -- the Sword cards are dominated by red and pink, and the Wands by light green. Also, the Wands themselves are sort of hand-held streetlamp-looking things that are somehow airy in appearance. But for really clear visual presentation of the elements as you perceive them, I concure with MeeWah -- the Nigel Jackson is the best example I have seen. For me, Swords are about cutting -- making decisions, paring away what is inaccurate or no longer useful -- and yes, piercing to the "heart" of a matter, using intellect to finding the core issue at hand. And Wands seem to be about passion and drive and creativity; they're like a standard you wield and carry before you as you go through life achieving things. So I like the more common elemental associations for these suits. If you want serious elemental weirdness, the Crystal Tarot (which I think is breathtaking and somewhat readable) has a bunch of water in all the Swords cards :eek:

The Swords being fire? thread was originally posted on 15 Oct 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.