Western Civ and Tarot thoughts?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 01 Oct 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Cerulean	01 Oct 2002
Is there a tarot or tarot themes that match your ideas of Western Civilization? This may be out of my grasp, but here's an overview we studied in my class last night. I was hoping that you might also have a favorite tarot that might span or match a few of the favored themes that are noted below. For some reason, I came up with Tarot de Paris by John Philip Thomas...I'm not certain you'd agree. I'm still absorbing my last night's class where we briefly touched on highlights of 5 major long-lived civilizations that started around 2500 or 3000 BC. Yes, there are more civilizations and much cross-cultural influences and yes, this snapshot in time only touched on major influences five major civilizations that historians believe affected Western Civilization arts and culture because of 1) geographical location and size 2) population 3) years, numbering thousands The brief overview (we have another three years to explore it in depth) suggested Egypt, India, China, Greece and Judeo-Christian traditions were the strongest civilizations affecting Western Civilization from 2500 to 3000 BC. Certain keyword themes associations with the above the traditions were suggested- 1) Egypt--Pharoah at the center of the culture, seeking ways to stop time and change---Egypt's Nile with it's straight lines was a key element in the art--Egyptians did not like twists or turns. 2) India -- physical creation and reproduction and circular ideals in bodies, cycles of birth, rebirth and transmigration. Art depicting both divine embrace of lovers and forming circular patterns. 3) Chinese - Balance between the great forces of yin and yang, fragility of humanity, Tao and Confuscious suggests humility and the human being very small and insignificant compared to nature. Maneuvering between balance and humility. 4) Greece - Men in battle and Trojan wars depicted ideals that stressed human control of nature. Independence, vigor, beauty of human form. Power, mind, brillance and mathematical order of the Parthenon is symbolic of the culture. 5) Judeo-Christian The old tradition of Ancient Israel as seen in the Tower of David and symbolism of the city of Jereusalem. The newer tradition as seen in the nativity of Jesus of Nazareth, the arrival of the Magi that showed awareness of other cultures. The death and resurrection of Jesus. I'm still figuring out why I might think a modern photographic tarot might be showing all these things---I can point to the Tarot de Paris cards with Sphinx or Egyptian scenes and the Greek/Roman classical traditions...but the others might be a far reach. It may be my wistful thinking... Any ideas? Mari H.

catboxer	02 Oct 2002
I think tarot is a product of Renaissance Italy, mostly, and France secondarily. But of course, Renaissance Italians "rediscovered" classical Rome, which had been a repository of ancient Greek culture, and had also inherited a lot of the very old baggage of ancient Egypt by way of Greece. As they sifted through all this classical debris and absorbed a lot of it, the Renaissance thinkers were much influenced, I think, by Mr. Plato. But as always, I look for the point of origin, and I believe it lies with a few noble families of northern Italy which, Mari, you have mentioned numerous times, especially the d'Este of Ferrara and the Visconti of Milan. Here's my theory, in the form of a sonnet: Duke Filippo's Castle "I've never drunk a wine so mellow and rare; Or eaten doves so delicate, yet rich. That Levantine dancer – how'd she make her hair So black, or make that painted body twitch And twist in ways a body shouldn't move? And where's our host? I scarcely can believe He'd make this lavish party then remove Himself from its delights." "Ah, don't deceive Yourself, Paolo, the Duke is never seen Among his guests, and hasn't been for years. Alone in his apartments with his fears And ugliness, priest-like he turns his keen Mind to the cards, those talismans, seventy-eight Reflections of his own sad, noble fate."

juice	02 Oct 2002
ancestral path tarot falls near if not in this catagory. A lot of the pictures don't look like photographic collage though. As a side note, the public tv has a six or so part series called a(the) Habit of Civilization. You might find it an interesting addition to your current course. It points out that there were six base cultures that sprung up without any obvious influence of the others. Let see... western, india, egypt, china, arabia, and I think the tribal cultures of north america.

Jewel	02 Oct 2002
I believe the Cosmic Tribe incorporates quite a bit of this symbolism as well. I do not have the deck with me at the moment to go into much detail but some elements of various of these cultures are sprinkled throughout the deck as part of our cosmic cosciousness. The Heirophant I know uses the pyramid, yin & yang concept appears, circular patterns (lots of spirals) and rebirth are very present, some greek or roman pillars I believe ... now for the Judeo Christian I am not sure. I really need to look through the deck for this post to make more sense.

truthsayer	02 Oct 2002
what about the world spirit? it's multi cultural deck that was created by women w/ westernized ideas. i don't think that's what you are looking for but...! good tarots for ancient egypt are the AE, neferteri, and sphynx greece--mythic tarot. maybe etruscan, too. i think the tarot de paris is a good choice of myltiple cultures symbolized/demonstrated in one place.

Cerulean	03 Oct 2002
Many pretty tarots were named...and a beautiful sonnet! The Catboxer Tarocchi poem should be side-by-side with a calendar insert from the Visconti in a nice retrospective. Gorgeous replies. I'd agree the Northern American Native Americans would be a great influence that added to the later history of Western Civilization, perhaps after 1500 AD? If we made a timeline, then I'd put beautiful and more modern art tarots with Native American spiritual/cultural themes as later date. When I mean later, I mean after the 3000 BC/2500 BC beginning point for Western Civ. There's a funny, not really normal historical variant called the Mitelli tarocchino that shows a dancing, delightful festiveness and seems to be circa 1665? I'm comparing the watercolor version to some of the statues posed in Tarot de Paris. Of the other tarots mentioned, I had forgotton how lively and colorful that the World Spirit seems. I hope other people post their choices, as I'm compiling a list of my favorite tarots that might match one or some of the themes of the five civilizations mentioned.

wavebreaker	03 Oct 2002
How about the Kazanlar Tarot? In this deck, the Wands suit refers to Indian culture (with references to both Buddhism and Hinduism), the Swords to ancient Egyptian culture, the Coins to Arabic culture (with references to 1001 Nights), and the Cups to Western/Christian culture. The Majors are more or less combining all of these. There may be even more references, but I haven't had the time yet to study this deck in-depth.

The Western Civ and Tarot thoughts? thread was originally posted on 01 Oct 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.