Five of Swords ?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Alex	11 Nov 2002
I am a bit surprised at the impact of my original post on 'What's important for a tarot reader - traits, manner, appearance?' thread and at the way people have chosen to interpret it. A little about myself: I descend from a family of German (mother's side) and Portuguese (father's side) immigrants who got established in South America (Brazil) a bit after the second war. Even though the core of my family is established in South America, I have lived in Brazil, here and there in Europe and USA along my life. I have a European passport and I still have relatives in Germany and Portugal. I don't care much about geographical locations, or countries. I don't identify myself with places, or cultures. There is a sad side to it. There is a good side to it: I cannot be offended through offenses directed at groups I have an ontological connection with, and I tend to think other people would benefit from the same attitude_ but again, I'm likely to be wrong about that too. I'm sorry that people's responses to my posts have not considered the possibility that I was not saying what I seemed to be saying, or at least that the offense I meant wasn't as severe and generalized as it seemed to be. Unfortunately, what I have said holds true to my experience and I cannot take it back. Bur sure I regret that I have said it because now I don't feel that I should continue participating in this forum. I'm sorry I have left the image of someone who's judgmental against "Europeans", rude and mindless of other's feelings. I had no way to know I was going to offend so many people and I'd meant no offense that I was aware of. Thanks you all for the tips and the knowledge you have shared with me and I wish this place would continue to be welcoming and illuminating as it has been so far, for the longest time. I particularly thank Mojo, Umbrae, Mee Wah, Marion and Diana for kindly commenting on my personal readings. Your wisdom was very illuminating to my learning of the Tarot, and I am glad I have shared some of my personal life with all of you. Blessings Alex.

zorya	11 Nov 2002
sometimes we cannot comprehend why others feel the way that they do. we tell ourselves that we would not feel that way if it were us, so they must be wrong to express such feelings. what remains, is that they DO feel that way, whether we understand why or not. all that is left for us to do, is to accept this. feelings were hurt. nothing has been damaged beyond the point of repair. we are all here to learn from each other. there are lessons here for all of us. we all make mistakes. most of us are here to grow and evolve. to become better people. i think it would be a mistake to leave alex. i think there could be more healing if we all try to listen to one another without judgement. if someone doesn't understand something, then perhaps we could ask that it be explained... from the heart. perhaps it could be listened to. sometimes growth is painful, but it doesn't have to be. even if it is, it is still worth it. time heals wounds. i wish you peace.

Umbrae	12 Nov 2002
“When strangers meet, great allowance should be made for differences of custom and training.” Frank Herbert. We are an international on-line community. We are strangers bound by an interest. We all vary in customs and experiences. Every single post, every single keystroke – we must ask ourselves, “Will this be understood as I mean it? Has my comment ‘crossed the line’; am I being prejudicial, will I hurt one or many?” I know of what I speak. I have caused great hurt myself, and carry it with me – daily. It is the pain of growth. So how could I in good conscience leave? I have to face up to those I hurt, and move forward. Sometimes those we hurt are further hurt by our not leaving, and that is not our obligation to bear. It is a good day to be human, accept our responsibilities as humans, and move forward. :smoker:

MeeWah	12 Nov 2002
Alex: It can be difficult to know when one's comments would offend another. There can be under-reading or over-reading despite the fact that we are using the same language. it behooves all to try to see it from another person's shoes. I, for one, did not see anything particularly offensive in your post--I may be thicker-skinned than most in some things, but generally, I assure y'all that is not the case. The fact remains that some folks do not attend to personal hygiene in a conscientious manner; or it may be due to ignorance. Therefore, I see what ye said as a simple statement in innocence based on your *personal experience*: you were simply offering a suggestion based on that experience--nothing more, nothing less. You do not strike me as one who would intentionally say something inappropriate nor calculated to offend. There is no need to ostracise yourself from Aeclectic. There are many who have committed far worse "faux pas"!

Diana	12 Nov 2002
edited

Demonesse	12 Nov 2002
*echoes Diana and MeeWah* Alex: It can be difficult to know when one's comments would offend another. There can be under-reading or over-reading despite the fact that we are using the same language. it behooves all to try to see it from another person's shoes....Therefore, I see what ye said as a simple statement in innocence based on your *personal experience*:.... ----- MeeWah There's nothing left for me to say on this unhappy little spin-off of my original thread; they've already said it all. But I do hope you stay, Alex :)

jmd	12 Nov 2002
My goodness, is it possibly be true that 'there a only a handful of members on Aeclectic who have succeeded in not getting someone's back up at one time or another'? I suppose that if you only include those with more than 200 posts, you may be correct. On the other hand, I suspect all regular contributors have managed to somehow upset someone or else a number of times - or maybe I'm merely generalising from my own toe-tredding! As to the olfactory sense, isn't it such a wonderful blessing! I hadn't read through the previous thread until recently, but it certainly reminded me that this sense is, from a spiritual perspective, claimed to be closely connected to the sensitivity required on the mystical pathways of higher development. In other words, the sense, which when focussed outwards permits for a certain unison with the other, can also be similarly inward focussed and lead to an experience of the Divine. Some may be interested to read R. Steiner, especially his third lecture (given in Dornach on the eighth of August 1920) of the lecture series published as Spiritual Science as a Foundation for Social Forms (GA 199, Anthroposophic Press, 1986), in which, taken out of context, he says: There are also people who surrender themselves to what grips the inner being as the effect of the sense of smell so intensely that it not only pervades the human being like the feeling of God, but places itself in him in such a manner that he experiences it as the mystic oneness with God. It may be, then, that Alex's experiences are quite correct, for maybe, just maybe, it isn't that it is the hygienic aspect to which there is a response, but a higher sensitivity to the impulse of the other through the senses - impulses which may tend to orient themselves in such a way as to penetrate the Sensitive's olfactory sense more so given certain cultural mores. oops - have I just stepped into waters which could be similarly mistaken? If I have, Alex, please stay - or I may find myself alone in the making of my quagmire :)!!!

fairyhedgehog	12 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Alex Bur sure I regret that I have said it because now I don't feel that I should continue participating in this forum. Alex, please don't go because of this. I'm just sitting here hoping that you took my response to your post in the spirit in which it was meant. I took it that your post was inadvertently open to people taking offence and I didn't take offence myself. Please, this is all a storm in a teacup. Stay and be friends :)

anjocoxo	12 Nov 2002
I was one of "supposed" offended, and I was one of the first to show you my hurt feelings. The truth is that, altough I was a bit offended it was nothing that has hurted me that much, and now I'm feeling guilty b/c you are saying you're leaving... Don't do that. It's natural to hurt somebody's feeling once and a while and I believe nobody was THAT offended, we are all different and all equal... everybody has its owns opinions, you said you're sorry, and now, in what comes to me, the thing is "forgive and forget". We have a lot to learn with each other, and we can always be friends as long as we (all in aeclectic) stick together. Don't worry about it and I want to hear you in the forums (DON'T YOU DARE RUNNING AWAY) :) Anjo PS- Portuguese parents?? Maybe you're my cousin or something ;P

Diana	13 Nov 2002
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Alex	13 Nov 2002
but I have an excuse, I'm only 35 (yet feels like 75). Other areas of my life require my attention right now and I'm feeling very tired and burdened. The last think I need is to go through another chain of messages to settle that conflict. Sometimes I am offensive on purpose, and I DO get a kick out of little battles, but that wasn't the case. Yes, Umbrae: cultures are different and we have to be careful. But human beings are all about the same. It's hard to know where people's group identities go. I lived in a state back in Brazil where "outsiders" weren't allowed to complain about anything- the traffic included. It would take me about 1 1/2 hour to go 10 miles on the weekends; and dare I say anything. They would immediately tell me "go back to Rio". But it's perfectly OK around here, to say I don't like the traffic in the D.C. area. But people don't like it when I say that the vegetables are too expensive. It's hard to know what kinds of things people will choose to take offense from. A good tip to survive in international communities_ not that I practice it that often_ is not to assume we know what intentions lay behind people's behaviors. No matter how clear the message might be, people's intentions are often not so readily accessible. Sometimes, even my own intentions aren't clear to myself. Thanks you all for the encouraging messages. I'm not going to be posting for a while but it's just that I'm having too many problems that require my energy. I'm tired and most of my mental energy is directed at finishing this Ph.D. I cannot even remember why I started in first place. Again thanks for being understanding and forgiving. Alex.

Laurel	13 Nov 2002
I had to go back and read through the thread that started this new topic because I hadn't realized anyone might be feeling genuinely heated or offended about it. Good luck working on your PhD, Alex! Focus on that and post again when we can all celebrate with your wonderful achievement in completing your degree. I just finished reading a book called "Flow" by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi on optimal experience. Its one of his earlier and better books, imo. There's a quote in there that I'm finding I need to apply to every aspect of my life, because its relevant not just about the work place but online forums, friendships, everything. No matter where we are, when we're communicating with other humans, we set expectations that are not necessarily obvious to outsiders. "Conflict at work is often due to a person's feeling defensive out of a fear of losing face. To prove himself he sets certain goals for how others should treat him, and then expects rigidly that others will fulfill those expectations. This rarely happns as planned, however, because others also have an agenda for their own rigid goals to be achieved. Perhaps the best way to avoid this impasse is to set the challenge of reaching one's goals while helping the boss and colleagues reach theirs; it is less direct and more-time consuming than forging ahead to satisfy one's interests regardless of what happens to others, but in the long run it seldom fails." On the topic of being offensive/offended, I think all of us as part of an online community should try to avoid deliberately pushing someone else's buttons and apologize when an innocent remark of ours goes awry, but at the same time, restrain our excessive remarks and knee-jerk reactions if something someone says doesn't quite meet our expectations. Humans judge and are judged too harshly and it invariably leads to dischord where there could be ever advancing respect and appreciation. Laurel

allibee	13 Nov 2002
I have recently been to a Universal Law class, and the most abiding thought that came away with me, which was also the most discussed topic, was one word : HUMILITY. I'm trying to bring more into my life, as I can be a bit of a bulldozer. I think we all tend to lose our moral compass at times. allibee

The Five of Swords ? thread was originally posted on 11 Nov 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.