Looking prejudice in the eye.

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

divinerguy	29 Nov 2002
Last year, I went on a rant about the Cosmic Tribe Tarot, and how there were waaaaay too many naked people for my comfort level. I'm not a prude, but I felt unsettled when using the deck. You can't do good readings if your head's not in the right place. Accordingly, I found a new home for the deck. Well, a few months ago, I made a decision to address my personal prejudices about life, and one of the things I promised myself was to give this deck a second chance. So, I got one in a trade here on Aeclectic, and looked at again today. It still has lots of naked people, including a guy with a surgically enlarged fluegelhorn. I don't consider myself homophobic, its just that this deck has more wee wee's running around than my 8th grade gym class, and its a bit of a change for me. It has plenty of nude females as well, but for some reason, those don't seem to bother me. (Go figure). The Cosmic Tribe is still here on my desk, however, and it will stay for a while. I can't promise that I'll like it - just that I'll try to keep an open mind about it. I'll use it and see how the readings turn out. In the meantime, I think I'll keep the polish sausage out of my diet. After all, you gotta have some balance in your life.

allibee	29 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy ....... fluegelhorn....... heeheeheehee, roflmao! well I've heard them called some things in my life, but never that, LOL allibee

Dark Inquisitor	29 Nov 2002
I think you should stop worrying divinerguy. You're not prejudiced. You're having a normal pre-programmed biological reaction- you are attracted to one sex & repulsed by the other. It happens all the time! Tarotphelia

Trish	29 Nov 2002
Yeah, don't be so worried. And you know what else? If that deck really does make you that uncomfortable, stay away from it. :) There's no point in driving yourself nuts over a deck that makes you feel that way. ;) Right? hehe!

Sea Sprite	29 Nov 2002
I agree with Allibee, Tarotphelia and Trish! :D

Kiama	30 Nov 2002
And well done for trying to address your 'fears' of this deck . One day, I will ge tround to doing hte same with my Haindl deck... Kiama

divinerguy	30 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama And well done for trying to address your 'fears' of this deck . One day, I will ge tround to doing hte same with my Haindl deck... Kiama, what is interesting is that I traded the Haindl for the Cosmic Tribe. The Haindl, in terms of its artwork, is a terrific deck. However, I gave up on the Haindl because it didn't inspire me as a reader. I put it in the same category as the Kalevala Tarot, which is beautiful, but has a learning curve before it can be used. I've had a death in my family recently, and it looks as though my Dad's time will be coming soon as well. It causes me to look at myself, and to make decisions about who I am. If I am to be the elder statesman of our clan, I must learn to be more tolerant of things which bother me. I need to shed the remnants of my seemingly never ending adolesence. In and of itself, the Cosmic Tribe Tarot doesn't mean all that much to me. Rather, it is symbolic in its role as a milestone of my personal journey through life. If I can learn to accept this tactless, oversexed, inspirationally challenged deck, which I truly dislike, then perhaps I can learn to accept other things that gnaw at me, such as ... The fact that my niece is beautiful, and attracts boys like ants at a picnic ... The fact that my other niece wants a career at the Dolphin Show at Sea World .... That my nephew wants to grow up to be a drummer ... Its not really about the Cosmic Tribe at all. Its about growing up. Its much more fun being immature and care free, but that chapter will be coming to end soon.

lili	30 Nov 2002
Divinerguy why don't you do a reading asking on why you feel this way when you are using this specific deck, i think that there may be an underline influence or fear that is making you feel so incomfortable with this deck, it could be something hiden that you can't see.

cuddles	30 Nov 2002
i think i understand what you mean. when i have a problem with something like that i want to understand why. only when i think i understand it does it lose its "power" over me. then i can decide what i really think. i have a problem with nudity in cards and will avoid decks with a lot. i am also examining the reasons for that. doesn't mean i will ever have to use a deck with a lot of nudity in it, but i don't want to lose what they may have to offer me if i gave them a chance. and whatever it is that bothers me...well, i feel like i need to figure it out and let it go. good luck :-)

Cerulean	30 Nov 2002
I probably am way off here...but as I was looking at the Cosmic Tribe to see if its a gift to a gay friend or my own, not many of them are the real people modelling in life drawing classes. There still is idealization and that's fine, because it is an art deck. That this deck gives you another window to the world, that is wonderful. It simply tells me that my friend and I definitely have made different private choices. The fact that you try to give a deck with a different worldview a chance is an interesting exercise in you trying to adjust filters---but I think that our natural preferences still stay intact. I do have another gay friend whose choice of partners is always males with very large proportions, even though he's sometimes prettier than the girls around him. I understand that I come from a family of small people, tending to be thin, so my filters take a lot of adjustment---my preference and aptness at slender, darker-toned models is very quick. But to be very good at life drawing, I had to had to learn to draw males and females outside my preference range-- although I tended to do backs, heads and shoulders in those instances. Let us know if it gets easier to read. My reaction to the Cosmic Tribe still is it will work better from my friend, that we'll see in our trip to another area. I'll probably ship it off to him soon. Mari H.

Dark Inquisitor	30 Nov 2002
[quote]Originally posted by divinerguy [b]Kiama, what is interesting is that I traded the Haindl for the Cosmic Tribe. The Haindl, in terms of its artwork, is a terrific deck. __I don't see why one would trade away terrific artwork that you like- it can be enjoyed for it's own sake. It doesn't have to be useful ! Your personal choice, of course. *I've had a death in my family recently, and it looks as though my Dad's time will be coming soon as well. __So sorry to hear that- it's never easy. *It causes me to look at myself, and to make decisions about who I am. If I am to be the elder statesman of our clan, __Did someone elect you ? Maybe the other members might think differently? Or maybe think there is no need for an "elder statesman"? *If I can learn to accept this tactless, oversexed, inspirationally challenged deck, which I truly dislike, __Why not accept yourself instead? You have gotten rid of a thing you found beautiful & insist on forcing something you find repulsive on yourself--? * then perhaps I can learn to accept other things that gnaw at me, such as ... The fact that my niece is beautiful, and attracts boys like ants at a picnic ... __Would you rather she was ugly , lonely & miserable? *The fact that my other niece wants a career at the Dolphin Show at Sea World .... That my nephew wants to grow up to be a drummer ... __Children change all the time, and maybe they will change their minds about their careers too. It's not like they are aspiring to be criminals. It really isn't within your control anyway. Because you are the eldest man,(or a man at all), you do not control the women & children in your family! (sorry) *Its not really about the Cosmic Tribe at all. Its about growing up. Its much more fun being immature and care free, but that chapter will be coming to end soon. __If you persist in this line of thinking, you are going to need a ratty old bathrobe , an aged recliner, Ben Gay, and some suppositories. I think you are being deluged by buried attitudes inherited from somewhere else, triggered by death & a few more birthdays. You may also be trying to incorporate politically correct attitudes imposed from outside yourself that really have nothing to do with how you feel inside. Cliche,- but to thine own self be true... Tarotphelia

DeLani	03 Dec 2002
I agree with (almost) everything that has been said here, especially: 1. That if something repulses or frightens you, you should really find out why, so that it doesn't have power over you anymore. Real "Moon" work. 2. That there may be some enculturation about manhood here tat needs to be recognized and evaluated (to see if it is viable), as in what a "man" is, as opposed to a boy. Many men are very enculturated that the sight of another man nude is repulsive from a very early age, and since the parents of most boys tend to obsessively shield the boys from the sight of other nude men, it enforces the "shock" of it. Women don't tend to have this as much since the nude female form is so ubiqutous in art and advertising. (we just get the self-esteem issues from only seeing anorexic hairless girls depicted as women) I don't agree that being heterosexual means you have to be repulsed by same-sex nudity. I'm hetero, and I'm not repulsed by nude women at all - quite the opposite. I find the nude human form (male or female) beautiful. I think you are on the right track with trying to dig out the roots of this predjudice. Good luck and blessings on your journey.

Moongold	04 Dec 2002
I always enjoy reading your posts. I don't know why you need to even bother about the Cosmic Tribe or the other things. Love the kids and them go; don't eeven worry about the Cosmic Tribe. There's a wonderful Australian cartoonist whom you remind me of - Michael Leunig. Information about him here:- http://www.curlyflat.net/index.htm Amongst other things he wrote a great lot of prayers although he's a spiritual rather than religious man. Here is one: God grant me strength. Strength to hold on amd strength to let go. Amen Blessings, Moongold

destinyawaitsme	04 Dec 2002
I totally understand what you are talking about. Although I really, don't ahve a personal problem with deck nudity, it's really hard to read for people who do. I use the Universal Waite all the time, and I still get comments on how there are naked people in the Lovers and World card. Although you can barely see the anatomically correct drawings and the nudity is very tastfully done, I've seen people squirm or make preverted comments. The following dialog actually happened: Me: This is the World card..this means..... Friend: I'm going to get naked soon!! haha ha (She wishes) Anyway, you can see what I mean. This could party be because I'm in college and I read for my friends. My friends are in college, and a lot of college aged folks still have the high-school mind-in-the-gutter mentality. I try not to get frustrated...it's biological.

divinerguy	05 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold I always enjoy reading your posts. I don't know why you need to even bother about the Cosmic Tribe or the other things. Love the kids and them go; don't eeven worry about the Cosmic Tribe. There's a wonderful Australian cartoonist whom you remind me of - Michael Leunig. Information about him here:- http://www.curlyflat.net/index.htm Moongold Leunig is a hoot. Website is okay too.

zorya	05 Dec 2002
i keep remembering myself as an art student as i read this thread..... learning to draw the naked bodies of both sexes. yeah, it's easy to appreciate the opposite sex. the first time i had to draw a naked woman, it felt more uncomfortable then when i drew my first man. but after time, i became objective. i am a woman, why should i not see the beauty in a woman's body? one does not have to be attracted to something in a sexual way to appreciate or see the beauty in it. why should we deny our own beauty. a penis is not only a sexual part, but is symbolic of a kind of power and strength. men were inspired to build skyscrapers for a reason, lol. you don't find bigger penises than those! anyway... the above only applies if the images themselves bother you and would still bother you if you saw them in a different setting. there is nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with a deck simply because it's images distract from the meanings. that is a different subject and that would be a great reason not to use the deck. i applaud you for questioning your feelings! it takes great strength to do so.

isthmus nekoi	05 Dec 2002
I think if you feel compelled to explore your feelings to this deck, to go w/it. Often we learn the greatest things from the values we choose to marginalize or supress. IMO, if you feel something about anything; whether it's attraction or repulsion... getting to know about it will always reveal something about yourself. The more intense the feeling, the deeper that thing can potentially lead you. Sometimes it's better to let these things alone, sometimes not. Only you can tell! Another life drawer here :) but a different story. As an artist, you can find yourself falling into habits b/c they've always served you well and you feel comfortable in them. You know this approach works and will produce wonderful results. However... every now and then you have to break out of this pattern, it gets stale, you've got to try something new. For me, it was working w/pen. I hated the permenance of it. I hated the lack of control I had over it when compared w/other mediums... Well, this summer I gave ink a chance (can't believe i just wrote that), and obviously, being uncomfortable in pen, the initial results weren't spectacular... but I'm pleased w/how it's going and it's opened up for me new approaches. I'm out of my 'rut' so to speak. We all have our thinking 'ruts': ideologies, belief systems, cognitive world orders, whatever. Yes, growing up means these things have to change and if you can do it safely through exploring a tarot deck, go for it!

cjtarot	05 Dec 2002
Hi, someone taught me that the pentacle represents the phases of our life, I think that devineguy has just hit a "point", a time in our lives when we have to take a look at ourselves, understand what is required of us in this phase of our life, yet work as hard as possible to not "break the outer circle" (lose who we are thru out journey). I hit a "point" when my first child was born and relized that it's "ME" and just "ME" that is responsible for her welfare. (you would be surprised how easy it became to say "NO" to that 2nd drink, or tell a friend not to just drop by at 10pm). Devineguy, your on the right track, just don't let the "growing up" force you to loose who you are. Blessings, Cj

JC	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by zorya a penis is not only a sexual part, but is symbolic of a kind of power and strength. men were inspired to build skyscrapers for a reason, lol. you don't find bigger penises than those! Did you mean to say you don't find bigger fluegelhorns than that? ;)

Moongold	06 Dec 2002
Surely it is possible to simply dislike something? We make these choices every day without having to attribute meaning to the choice. Sometimes it is simply a metter of aesthetics. I guess it depends on what the question is. If Divinerguy wants to explore his deep feelings about male nudity in the Cosmic Tribe, then he is perfectly free to do so. If he is concerned about nudity in general an art gallery might be more fun. If he wants to learn something about letting go there is a great movie with Steve Martin (Father of the Bride?) and a few others of that ilk. Leunig has some great whimsical cartoons about life in general and letting go and voyages of discovery (Mr. Curly and Vasco Pyjama). These could parallel, in a gentle way, the Fool's journey. I guess it depends on where you want to put your energy, DG. I don't really like the Thoth but I'm curious about its history and the attraction it has for others. Maybe later..... I'm leaving it for a dark and stormy day in winter. Ah dear.....it's Friday afternoon and the weekend beckons. Moongold

isthmus nekoi	08 Dec 2002
Moongold> *giggle* oh yes! If we were to analyze every single think we liked or disliked I think we'd go quite mad. And as for fuegelhorns , zorya's right. They're still worshiped in parts of the world for that reason (power). Phalli are also symbols of the creative spirit, something that often gets lost in our symbolic world of guns, missiles and sky scrapers.

Khatruman	10 Dec 2002
When I taught a college reading and writing course, I used to teach the book Night by Elie Wiesel, about his experiences in the Nazi concentration camps. For one of my students' journal exercises during the reading of that book, I used to have them look at the Gestapo in their own mirror. Talk about what prejudices they have, since the only way one can truly rid himself of prejudice is to first admit he has it. Well, my students had the hardest time doing this. Most of them swore up and down they held NO prejudices. After a few unsuccessful semesters, I took to prefacing this assignment by admitting a prejudice of mine: male homosexuality. I told them I am aware that I have an aversion to it, and tend to instinctively look down on someone who is. Then I would let them know that, because I am aware of this, I can meet a gay male and realize my prejudice and then allow myself to truly see the person beyond the prejudice. Having a prejudice does not mean we have to act on it, but if we deny it, it influences our acts. I gave them a for instance scenario, saying that I was a manager in charge of hiring a new employee. Two equally qualified candidates interview and one is a male with effeminate mannerisms. Knowing my prejudice, I can make sure that it does not influence my final decision. If I denied that prejudice, I might just get an instinctual feeling that he wasn't right for the job, which may be just a subconscious working of my prejudice. In any case, I applaud what you did with facing that fear. I too stay away from the Cosmic Tribe Tarot because, I know, the male nudity displayed does affect me negatively. With using tarot, which for me involves heavy use of intuitiveness, the male nudity is a distraction which scewers my reading. I hope my ramblings helped, or even made sense. :D Peace!

The Looking prejudice in the eye. thread was originally posted on 29 Nov 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.