miss cleo?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 30 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

cuddles	30 Nov 2002
hiya :-) can someone please tell me...who is miss cleo?

Trish	30 Nov 2002
geez ... you are deprived! LOL! Miss Cleo is ... err, was ... a telephone tarot reader who had a BUNCH of commercials on TV. I say was because I don't see her on TV anymore. She spoke with a pronounced Jamaican accent and claimed to be some sort of a shaman. She ended up getting hit with lawsuits for fraud in several states, and it also turns out that she was not a shaman from Jamaica. She was a former actress born in Texas.

cuddles	30 Nov 2002
lol :-) yes, i am a bit new to this! and i lived out of the country for the last 15 years so i'm sure i missed a lot. thanks!

Thirteen	30 Nov 2002
I'll add that Miss Cleo earned a lot of attention and popularity by being aggressive and charismatic--and very thick with that accent. Her readings always involved a caller asking questions like, "is my boyfriend cheating on me?" and then Miss Cleo would launch into this response that usually included chastizing the caller. Something like: "I see he been in prison! You know dat he be bad for you! And what's dis? You been cheatin' on him! Dat baby you be carryin' ain't his at all!" And the caller would answer, "Oh, my Gawd! Miss Cleo, you're right on the money!" She earned quite a bit for the fraudent company she was working for while she lasted.

Mojo	30 Nov 2002
The latest update is that the company that backed Miss Cleo has been ordered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission to forgive $500 million in customer charges, which makes it the single largest corporate settlement in U.S. history. Miss Cleo still faces personal charges for fraud, misrepresentation and larceny. Several older scams involving "charitable" theater projects have come to light as well. The latest is out of Seattle where she is accused of absconding with about a quarter of a million dollars worth of contributions.

Trish	30 Nov 2002
Here's a link to a pretty interesting story about Miss Cleo. It talks about how her hotline operated, and all that stuff. ;) http://dailyrevolution.org/allgood/010608.html

allibee	01 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo Miss Cleo still faces personal charges for fraud, misrepresentation and larceny. heeheehee, bet she never saw THAT in the cards, LOL allibee

Khatruman	07 Dec 2002
I don't want to get on a soap box about Ms. Cleo, but it is those like her who give Tarot cards a bad name. And the misrepresentation that they *tell the future*... I guess everyone wants something that will take the guesswork out of the future, to know where everything is going. Few people want the more effective and important answers of what is going on inside them and around their spirit, which is really what they should be working on. But of course, it involves work. Everyone wants to dream of hitting the lottery and solving all his problems, but no one wants to work on it within himself, which is where it needs to be, and no amount of chance or divine intervention will help those who inside are still injured or incomplete in spirit. It's the same with blaming God for not stopping the atrocities we humans have performed on each other and the world. I think Milton in Paradise Lost got the idea right. God and The Son are sitting around watching Adam and Eve and God knows they will be tempted by Satan and set on their road of hardship and toil, kicked out of Eden. The Son asks God why, if he knows what will happen, does he not stop it. God responds that if he controlled man's actions even to his downfall, he would make man no more than his puppet, not a true loving, independent being. To be a true thinking being, man must be allowed to be good, or bad through his own actions. Just so, don't look to Ms. Cleo to give you the future, God doesn't even control that. *stepping off my soapbox*... so those who do take money for card reading, be responsible enough to give some legitimacy to it. Don't give in to people's want of you to predict the next lottery.

Mojo	07 Dec 2002
Sorry Khatruman, but I gotta disagree. Miss Cleo was great for business. When her commercials were running regularly, people came out of the woodwork looking for Tarot readings. I make money off of Tarot the same way that people have for 500 years: a little bit truth, a little bit speculation, a little bit huckster, and a little bit entertainer. It works for me, and for my clients, so don't knock it.

Alex	07 Dec 2002
used by the 4 therapists/conselors I saw along my life. They had Ph.D.s and were licenced and insured against client's complaints. Don't know how much you charge but I got to pay about 150 U$/hour. I didn't work so much for me but I were told it was all my fault, every time I raised the issue of inneficiency. So an additional advice here: clients that don't like the service can be called "defensive" and have their mouths shut. Tarot readers get sued more often, I think, cause they are neither protected by a "scientific" background nor by a corporate proffessionalism. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Mojo I make money off of Tarot the same way that people have for 500 years: a little bit truth, a little bit speculation, a little bit huckster, and a little bit entertainer. It works for me, and for my clients, so don't knock it.

Mojo	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Alex Tarot readers get sued more often, I think, cause they are neither protected by a "scientific" background nor by a corporate proffessionalism. I have never heard of a Tarot reader getting sued. Other than Miss Cleo, of course, but she was brought in for massive illegal business practices, not for bad readings. I can't imagine someone trying to sue a Tarot reader because their reading was wrong or wasn't taken seriously. I think any jury in the world would laugh such a case out of court. Hell, I've been reading Tarot for more than 30 years and I'd laugh this one out of court. If a truly professional service provider such as a therapist approached their craft as I approach Tarot, they would deserve discipline and penalty. However, Tarot is NOT a professional service, despite the tendency of some readers to want to call themselves a professional reader. I've said it a hundred times in these forums: Tarot is, always has been, and always will be, a CARD GAME. To compare Tarot to psychology or psychiatry is ridiculous. Those are professional studies with advanced university degrees, unified and globally-accepted professional credentials, and a set of legal parameters within which one must work. Tarot is a card game which can be practiced by anyone with a deck of cards. And for the record, anyone who doesn't feel like they got their money's worth from my readings doesn't have to pay. In all the years I've been doing this, I've only had 2 customers decide to not pay.

Alex	08 Dec 2002
for my dad is a lawyer and I get to hear all kinds of stories. One predicted a person's death under given circumstances and it happened that way. The family sued her but lost the cause. The other didn't like that a tarot reader told his wife that he had an affair. He wan some amount of $$ in court and his legal fees back. Quote: Originally posted by Mojo I have never I can't imagine someone trying to sue a Tarot reader because their reading was wrong or wasn't taken seriously. I think any jury in the world would laugh such a case out of court. Hell, I've been reading Tarot for more than 30 years and I'd laugh this one out of court. Some are very incompetent and approach their clients with an amazing lack of respect. Professionalizing a discipline does not make it better, more trustworthy, reliable or professional. For a few years after I had my therapies I advocated for clients who claimed, they'd been severely harmed by their therapists. Very seldom a client's complaint follows through as to result in the punishment of the professional, and such actions usually result in more harm, shame and costs on the part of the client. In the UK, therapy isn't regulated, but therapists of various backgrounds/orientations call themselves "professionals". Tarot readers can call themselves "professionals" if they so wish. Professional or not, it makes no difference when it comes to abusive behavior or lack of "professionalism". Quote: Originally posted by Mojo If a truly professional service provider such as a therapist approached their craft as I approach Tarot, they would deserve discipline and penalty. However, Tarot is NOT a professional service, despite the tendency of some readers to want to call themselves a professional reader.. [/b]

Alex	08 Dec 2002
but aside from Psychoanalysis (in the strict sense) and Psychiatry (which is a medical specialty), "counseling" as regulated in many countries, does not require "unified and globally-accepted professional credentials". Here in the US, as an example, you can become a counselor through a church; or through an institution such as "Foundation for the promotion of Adlerian studies" or the hell. Quote: Originally posted by Mojo To compare Tarot to psychology or psychiatry is ridiculous. Those are professional studies with advanced university degrees, unified and globally-accepted professional credentials, and a set of legal parameters within which one must work.

Khatruman	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo Sorry Khatruman, but I gotta disagree. Miss Cleo was great for business. When her commercials were running regularly, people came out of the woodwork looking for Tarot readings. I make money off of Tarot the same way that people have for 500 years: a little bit truth, a little bit speculation, a little bit huckster, and a little bit entertainer. It works for me, and for my clients, so don't knock it. I am not disagreeing that it was good for business/, and that is not my point. Sure, it was good for business and exposure, as Jerry Springer is good for the business of argumentation and debate, but certainly it doesn't help Face the Nation as serious debate and lending credibility to it. I have leeway in teaching at my Adult High School program and have designed a course on multicultural folklore. I do teach a unit on tarot, since it is in many ways a form of folklore, and now spans many cultural influence. Students almost immediately want me to "read my cards" and tell me about their future. There is a sense, for the unstudied people that "the cards" have some kind of power, and control, over their future, when the cards are really reading something deep inside them. Someone like Ms. Cleo coming on with these ads where she is telling them what's going to happen and being a controlling force makes it all the much harder to give serious credibility to them, and when she is found to be a scam, well, it just goes back to being some kind of hoodoo gypsy swindle like it is popularly thought of. And where is your proof that this has been going on since the 1500s? The earliest verified evidence shows it to be a form of card game until the occult was linked to it around the coming of the 20th century. I do not knock tarot at all, I just think the human race has evolved into a more sophisticated entity and to go backwards is wrong. Peace!

Mojo	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman Someone like Ms. Cleo coming on with these ads where she is telling them what's going to happen and being a controlling force makes it all the much harder to give serious credibility to them, and when she is found to be a scam, well, it just goes back to being some kind of hoodoo gypsy swindle like it is popularly thought of. But it IS some kind of hoodoo gypsy swindle... that's my entire point. Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman And where is your proof that this has been going on since the 1500s? The earliest verified evidence shows it to be a form of card game until the occult was linked to it around the coming of the 20th century. History is my proof. Just because some secretive, separatist a-holes got together at some point and added a bunch of mysterious crap to it doesn't make it the holy grail.

Khatruman	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo But it IS some kind of hoodoo gypsy swindle... that's my entire point. History is my proof. Just because some secretive, separatist a-holes got together at some point and added a bunch of mysterious crap to it doesn't make it the holy grail. Yeah, you made your point... and making money.... congrats, in the meantime I have to take the fallout from folks like you who perpetuate the swindle. I don't see the cards themselves as having this power and energy, but the whole act of oracular devices themselves. Basically, any oracular device and its use boils down to one of two beliefs: that all is sheer chance, or that there is a overall spirit to the world. What all oracular devices do (i.e. tarot, i-ching, throwing the bones, nordic runes, Native American Medicine Wheel, drawing lots, bibliomancy, etc.) is use a random draw of a message (throwing sticks or bones, randomly picking cards or stones, etc.). If you believe the world is all random, you either take it all as poppycock and ignore or use it on unsuspecting suckers. If you see a overall (or underall) spirit, then you are letting go of your control and handing it over to the spirit. Too many cultures have and use these devices to great success for me to see it as poppycock. However, in the end, the world is always as we believe it is. You believe it's a bunch of garbage to make money from, so be it, there's your world. It isn't mine, but far be it for me to change you. Peace!

HudsonGray	09 Dec 2002
Since the cards offer a connection to something 'beyond the ordinary' I figure the human psyche will always accept divination in whatever form is being used. Does it work? Yes. How? Who knows. It might be a connection to your own subconscious, to higher beings, to the one energy throughout the universe--whatever you believe in. But it does give answers & if it DIDN'T work it sure wouldn't have been around all these centuries as a useable form, now, would it? Some people just do it for money. I can name a few veterinarians that hate animals yet do it for the money. Are they good at it? Maybe. But they aren't touching my animals. If a tarot reader doesn't believe in it, why should the customers trust them?

Mojo	09 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman Yeah, you made your point... and making money.... congrats, in the meantime I have to take the fallout from folks like you who perpetuate the swindle. Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman You believe it's a bunch of garbage to make money from, so be it, there's your world. It isn't mine, but far be it for me to change you. Where did I say it was garbage??? I agreed with your gypsy hoodoo remarks, but I never said it was garbage. If you've paid any attention at all to any of my other postings on these forums, you'll find that I take it very seriously... just not as seriously as some of you folks seem to when you start talking about all the weird metaphysical connections which have only been associated with a small part of the history of Tarot. And drop the drama about taking the fallout from folks like me. I leave them happy and content. They always come back for more. If I treated Tarot or my customers like garbage, I seriously doubt that would be the case. Lighten up.

Karenwhe	10 Dec 2002
I do want to say something about gypsies, as they were mentioned more than once in this thread. If anyone ever saw a real gypsy, and I mean a real one, would know that they tell your past, your future, how to prevent the biggest disasters in your life and your biggest victories, without any cards or anything else for that matter. They just look at you and tell you the story of your life, they read you like a book……. I never figured out how, but they just do… They also do not ask for money for what they say, and they do not predict for anyone that asks them, just people that they chose to voice their knowledge too. The native gypsies don’t live in cities they live somewhere in the mountains in Easter and Western Europe. Yes, many have migrated, but I am talking about the real gypsy. I see to often the word gypsy used in many contexts, without someone ever knowing what a real gypsy is, ever meet one, or can identify one.

Khatruman	10 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo And drop the drama about taking the fallout from folks like me. I leave them happy and content. They always come back for more. If I treated Tarot or my customers like garbage, I seriously doubt that would be the case. Lighten up. "I leave them happy.... I treat my customers" It's all about you, isn't it? You don't get the fallout I am talking about. Your customers tell others that tarot is about fortune telling, they are happy and others think it is a simple swindle. Fine, your customers are happy. I guess you grew up in the *me* generation, which is all about making money for yourself. Sorry, but I realize we live in a society where people should look out for each other. Anyway, it's useless. You did talk about my having to look at what you say in the context of everything else you say, but did you even look at what I said in the context of the rest of the message? I also don't like to put a bunch of metaphysical junk onto tarot either, but I see it as a wonderful tool for getting in touch with deep instincts and the collective unconscious. But of course when I tell people this they say, "Oh no, it's just a fortune telling game, like Mojo sold me." I've done research on tarot as a part of a oracular tradition that spans many cultures (i-ching, runes, Native American medicine wheel), and it may work into the creativity factor. It jolts your mind out of thinking in its usual patterns and thus gives you a more creative answer. This has nothing to do with mumbo jumbo. Heck, even Wall Streeters use similar systems to great effect. Ohh, but I don't know why I go on. You will just come back with some pithy little response about how it is fine for you and your customers, so all is fine and dandy with you, and that's all that matters in your little world, now isn't it? Peace!

Khatruman	10 Dec 2002
Quote: I see to often the word gypsy used in many contexts, without someone ever knowing what a real gypsy is, ever meet one, or can identify one. Forgive me, I wished to refer to the stereotype of the gypsy, the huksters who DO try to sell people on the future dream, not the true gypsies of which you speak. I did not mean to offend and will be more careful in my use of the term in the future. Thank you for pointing this out. Peace!

Mojo	10 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman [bi guess you grew up in the *me* generation, which is all about making money for yourself. sorry, but i realize we live in a society where people should look out for each other. [/b] Wrong again. I'm older than you and quite the bleeding heart liberal. Not a selfish bone in this body. So far you're batting zero by making assumptions about me. Wanna keep trying or are you ready to admit that you're just sorta on the bitter side and since I struck a nerve, I'm the enemy du jour? Most of my regular clients have the option to make charitable contributions in my name to my favorite charities in lieu of paying me for their readings. Likewise when I read at parties. I give the hosts a list of charities and a minimum amount I'd like them to donate. Sorry that my opinions are so threatening to you. However, I'm not sorry for having them or for speaking my piece. Go ahead, what's your next assumption? I'll be happy to prove you wrong once again.

Mojo	10 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe I do want to say something about gypsies, as they were mentioned more than once in this thread. If anyone ever saw a real gypsy, and I mean a real one, would know that they tell your past, your future, how to prevent the biggest disasters in your life and your biggest victories, without any cards or anything else for that matter. They just look at you and tell you the story of your life, they read you like a book……. I never figured out how, but they just do… They also do not ask for money for what they say, and they do not predict for anyone that asks them, just people that they chose to voice their knowledge too. The native gypsies don’t live in cities they live somewhere in the mountains in Easter and Western Europe. Yes, many have migrated, but I am talking about the real gypsy. Karenwhe, "Gypsy" is a generic term for anyone who wanders without a permanent home, and it's usually considered a derogatory term. The people I believe you are referring to are the Romany, a race of wanderers who came to Europe during the Middle Ages. Some people believe they came from the far east and others believe they came from Morocco, but historians have never been able to prove either theory. Not all of them are psychic and not all of them practice prognostication, and not all of them are honest, upstanding citizens who don't ask for money. Just like any other race of people, they come in all shapes, sizes, and dispositions. I know many of them. My Great Grandmother on my mother's side was Romany, which is what drew me to the Tarot in the first place. Going to one of my family reunions guarantees that you'll see them in action. And some of them are just as slick as snakes. Sorry to disappoint.

Karenwhe	10 Dec 2002
Mojo, that is exactly what I wanted to say.... you just proved it .... that people have no idea what gypsies are. The word gypsy has become derogatory, true. That is why I tried to explain something in the prvious message. Romany are not real gypsies, all those that come in different shapes and stuff, that is exactly what I tried to explain in my previous message. People refer to gypsies without knowing what one is. And of course it has become over the years a bad word. I specifically did not mention the word Romany because I am not referring them. When you talk about Romany you are right in all your descriptions. But I wasn’t talking about Romany. They Romany are the “black sheep” of today’s modern Europe (but I will just leave it at that). Like I said no one today would recognize a gypsy if s/he was standing in front of them. And they do not come from the far east nor from Morocco (or the middle east for that matter).

Laurel	10 Dec 2002
Karenwhe it sounds like you are describing a personal "mythic truth" regarding what Gypsies are, whereas Mojo was is talking in a more objective/historical sense. You can both be right, since you are both operating under such different paradigms, but yours is truthfully the more subjective one and so don't be too put off if you find others pointedly disagreeing and working with the idea of gypsy=Romany and the other points Mojo brings up. Back to the topic of Miss Cleo in this thread mayhaps? Laurel

Khatruman	10 Dec 2002
Wondering how re:re: I can go! LOL Quote: Originally posted by Mojo So far you're batting zero by making assumptions about me. Wanna keep trying or are you ready to admit that you're just sorta on the bitter side and since I struck a nerve, I'm the enemy du jour? Sorry that my opinions are so threatening to you. However, I'm not sorry for having them or for speaking my piece. Go ahead, what's your next assumption? I'll be happy to prove you wrong once again. *looking around in a skulky kind of way* threatened???!!! *shivers*... :D Whatever piece of peace you may speak, hey Knock Yourself Out! Ahh, sorry about making assumptions, just didn't have time to read all of your posts to understand the real enigmatic you. *L* struck a nerve? on the bitter side? enemy du jour? wow, I think I am hearing assumptions galore! Along with the earlier one about how I put a whole bunch of metaphysical junk onto the cards. Seems now we all make assumptions at one point or another, don't we? In the spirit of debate, I debated. You seemed to me (assuming once again :D) an intelligent and highly opinionated person, and I was greatly enjoying our debate. If you had backed down, this would have been so less enjoyable. I think the nerve you hit was my medulla oblongata (forgive the spelling). And how did you know you are older than I? Did I put my birthday on my profile. Awww, you've been peaking! Sly dog. Having clients give to charities is a noble thing, but, of course, you know that. I just wanted you to know that I applaud that, but you need not my applause, now do you? I don't expect in the least for you to apologize for your opinions. We humans just tend to assume and opin all over the place. In any case, I think I will look for where you post. I enjoy the intellectual stimulation of a well-seasoned mind. I did, at first, assume you to be a jaded huckster, but I have been proven wrong. I do apologize for that assumption. Would love to meet you in the chat room sometime. I think we could bring wonderful passion to the discussion there. *Tips my hat respectfully to you* We did seem to pull some people along into the debate here, didn't we? Adieu! Postscript added 12/17: Oooo, looking for this quote and somehow this makes me think of you: "Brain the size of planet and they tried to engage my enthusiasm by giving me this menial task" --Marvin the ultra-intelligent-but-profoundly-bored robot in Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy

The miss cleo? thread was originally posted on 30 Nov 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.