Need Some Help with a Winter Themed Tarot
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Violet Gargoyle |
02 Nov 2002 |
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I am in the early stages of making a Winter themed Tarot for myself for my use next year. Call it one of those self regulating projects to keep my brain occupied but the general idea is to have a sort of RW-based deck without it being a clone.
Anyhow, the jist is to have archtypes and symbolism that centers around the winter holidays, be it Yule, Winter Solistice, Christmas, Hannakah or folklore associated with winter.
I am stuck for some of the appropriate characters in the Major Arcana, can you suggest any stories, folklore, or traditions that fit the following?
The Fool: (PS- I already have Santa, Father Christmas, Kris Kringle, and St. Nicholas elsewhere....)
The High Priestess: (Tenatively Anderson's Ice Maiden)
The Lovers:
Justice:
Death:
Temperance:
The Devil (Tenatively Herod, but I am not comfortable with this):
The World: (I got as far as "Peace on Earth"):
I'm also stuck on the Queen of Wands (Mistletoe) and Cups (Wassail)
Anyone have any suggestions?
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| Talisman |
02 Nov 2002 |
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'Lo Vi',
Just a thought, but to create a mood, can you imagine the furnace where "There on the marge of Lake LaBarge, I creamated Sam McGee . . ." as the devil? In this case, of course, it would have to be a sort'a positive card.
I'm thinking, of course, of Robert Service, winter and cold thoughts:
Parapharsed:
"Then I knew what the music meant,
Hunger and night and the stars,
And not the hunger of the belly kind,
That's satisfied by bacon and beans,
But the hunger of lonely men,
For a home and all that it means."
(Course, the lights went out, and two guns blazed in the dark, and two men lay stiff and stark, and pitched on his head and pumped full of lead . . . etc.)
Just'a thought. The Ice Queen suggests others.
Fascinating idea. Please let us all know how it goes along.
Talisman
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| Rhiannon |
02 Nov 2002 |
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The little match girl: http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_match.html
R :)
Edited to add: Have you ever seen that little puppet cartoon about Jack Frost? It's like the Rudolph one... Jack falls in love with a mortal woman and becomes mortal for her. But she's in love with some handsome knight type. Perfect lovers card, IMO.
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| Violet Gargoyle |
02 Nov 2002 |
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Originally posted by Talisman
'Lo Vi',
Just a thought, but to create a mood, can you imagine the furnace where "There on the marge of Lake LaBarge, I creamated Sam McGee . . ." as the devil? In this case, of course, it would have to be a sort'a positive card.
I'll have to reaquiant myself with that one, if not necessarily for the Devil, I am sure I could use it for the minors.
Originally posted by Rhiannon
The little match girl: http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_match.html
Edited to add: Have you ever seen that little puppet cartoon about Jack Frost? It's like the Rudolph one... Jack falls in love with a mortal woman and becomes mortal for her. But she's in love with some handsome knight type. Perfect lovers card, IMO.
R :)
Great minds think alike :) I do have the Match Girl down, tenetively for Judgement at the moment......
The same company (I think) that did the Jack Frost and Rudolph cartoon did a little-seen production of the Match Girl- I cried for a week when I saw it (I was about 7).
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| Demonesse |
02 Nov 2002 |
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Would Anderson's Ice Maiden be what I know as the Snow Queen? You might want to use the Wolf in the Russian "Firebird" tale as Justice, or for Strength...and you could refer to my all time favourite cartoon - Tim Burton's Nightmare Before Christmas! Jack Skellington would make a great Magician/Death, and the Boogeyman an excellent Devil.
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| ihcoyc |
02 Nov 2002 |
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For the World, I'd put in the Sampo from the great old MST3K movie The Day the Earth Froze. If you haven't seen it, you should not rest until you do. The Sampo is a machine that spins around, and as it spins it produces flour, salt, and gold from nothing. No home should be without one.
(Actually, you could probably work in a fair amount of material from the Kalevala into this.)
For Death, perhaps a character like Kashchei the Deathless, from the Firebird? One of my favourite bits of Stravinsky AAR.
The Devil? That's got to be Torg, the giant robot from "Santa Claus Conquers the Martians."
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| Myrrha |
02 Nov 2002 |
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How about Kay and Gerda (from Anderson's Ice Queen tale) for the lovers? Maybe it doesn't quite have the alchemical associations. Kay's whole situation with the shard of mirror in his eye that caused him to see things in a negative light seems very wintery, and Gerda was so brave to follow him into the cold places.
How about the witch from Narnia, what was her name? She could be the devil maybe.
Myrrha
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| Myrrha |
02 Nov 2002 |
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How about Kay and Gerda (from Anderson's Ice Queen tale) for the lovers? Kay's whole situation with the shard of mirror in his eye that caused him to see things in a negative light seems very wintery, and Gerda was so brave to follow him into the cold places.
Maybe Clara, from Hoffman's Nutcracker could be the fool. The witch from Narnia might make a good devil.
Hmmmm, snowball fight for the five of wands?
I like the idea of peace on earth for the world. It seems like a good theme you could do a lot with.
Myrrha
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| amyel |
02 Nov 2002 |
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Do you want to stick with mythologies? If so, you might want to check out legends and myths from Alaska and the Inuit peoples of Canada - there might be some Icelandic or Greenlander myths, too. There is an Inuit myth lurking in my brain that might fit, but I can't pull it out at present...if it comes forward, I'll post it here.
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| RingTheory |
02 Nov 2002 |
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Father Time for Death? Mistletoe for The Lovers?
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| Violet Gargoyle |
03 Nov 2002 |
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Originally posted by Demonesse
Would Anderson's Ice Maiden be what I know as the Snow Queen? You might want to use the Wolf in the Russian "Firebird" tale as Justice, or for Strength...and you could refer to my all time favourite cartoon - Tim Burton's Nightmare Before Christmas! jAck Skellington would make a great Magician/Death? and the Boogeyman an excellent Devil.
Actually the Ice Maiden and the Snow Queen are two different stories by Anderson. The version that I read of the Ice Maiden is a bit, shall we say, rougher, in character, but trying to find an (unmarried) priestess like type was tough.....
The Snow Queen is one of my all time favorites, but I am using her as one of the court cards (Snowflakes= Pentacles).
I collect all things NBX, but I have to pass on that one in favor of eventually having a good NBX deck someday......
Originally posted by Myrrha
How about Kay and Gerda (from Anderson's Ice Queen tale) for the lovers? Maybe it doesn't quite have the alchemical associations. Kay's whole situation with the shard of mirror in his eye that caused him to see things in a negative light seems very wintery, and Gerda was so brave to follow him into the cold places.
Myrrha
The Snow Queen: I was at a toss up between Kay and Gerda for the Lovers, or Clara and the Nutcracker......
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| Violet Gargoyle |
03 Nov 2002 |
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Originally posted by ihcoyc
For the World, I'd put in the Sampo from the great old MST3K movie The Day the Earth Froze . If you haven't seen it, you should not rest until you do. The Sampo is a machine that spins around, and as it spins it produces flour, salt, and gold from nothing. No home should be without one.
(Actually, you could probably work in a fair amount of material from the Kalevala into this.)
For Death, perhaps a character like Kashchei the Deathless, from the Firebird? One of my favourite bits of Stravinsky AAR.
The Devil? That's got to be Torg , the giant robot from "Santa Claus Conquers the Martians."
I gotta respect anyone who remembers source material from MST3K :D
Originally posted by rota
How about the Wolf of Norse mythology as the Devil? After all, doesn't the Christmas Tree symbolism come from the same source?
In fact, I'll bet Northern Mythology could prove fertile for some of your deck's needs. Try this link, maybe: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/ancientlandmarks/TheosophyOfTheFarNorth.html
It's full of great insights.
Originally posted by Rhiannon
Here are some more fairy tales:
You might also try something about winter goddesses and gods, like Skadi, etc.
R :)
I do have Freya and Kris Kringle (in his more Norse-like form, yeah I know its a thin line there) figured in. Kris is the Magician in the Major Arcana at the moment...Skadi and Freya I think will figure in the minors or court cards. Baba Yaga is in the court cards too from the Slavic winter side of things.
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| Violet Gargoyle |
03 Nov 2002 |
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Originally posted by RingTheory
Father Time for Death? Mistletoe for The Lovers?
I like the idea of Father Time, I've got mistletoe for the wands suit because of all of its different traditions associated with it.
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| Violet Gargoyle |
03 Nov 2002 |
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Originally posted by amyel
Do you want to stick with mythologies? If so, you might want to check out legends and myths from Alaska and the Inuit peoples of Canada - there might be some Icelandic or Greenlander myths, too. There is an Inuit myth lurking in my brain that might fit, but I can't pull it out at present...if it comes forward, I'll post it here.
Certainly. I would love to hear any of the tales! (folklore addict- er, graduate that I am)
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| Ravenswing |
03 Nov 2002 |
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how about frosty the snowman for the magician?
santa claus' sleigh is the chariot.
a yeti for the devil?? or maybe the grinch...
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| Melvis |
03 Nov 2002 |
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A few random characters I can think of...
There's the couple from the Gift of the Magi story by O. Henry.
Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer and cast; plenty of characters to work with there.
Maybe Edward Scissorhands in his mansion on the hill, making snow for his lost love who lives in the village below?
How about the puny Christmas Tree from the Charlie Brown Christmas special as the Ace of Wands? hehehe
Okay, maybe these are a bit too modern, and not all that traditional... :D
I love this idea, VG!
Peace,
Melvis
:TSTRE
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| Violet Gargoyle |
03 Nov 2002 |
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Originally posted by Ravenswing
how about frosty the snowman for the magician?
santa claus' sleigh is the chariot.
a yeti for the devil?? or maybe the grinch...
I have Frosty (actually just "The Snowman") in for the Tower. The Sleigh is the Chariot.
I am still undecided about the Devil. My hubby also suggested the Mouse King from the Nutcracker.....
Originally posted by Melvis
A few random characters I can think of...
There's the couple from the Gift of the Magi story by O. Henry.
R
Melvis
:TSTRE
I love the gift of the Magi and figured them in the Wassail (cups) suit.
Speaking of Magi, I am using 3 wise men plus one as the knights. Catholic teachings came up with names for the wise men that they believe went to the manger (the number of wise men and their names arent in the Bible) , and Henry Van Dyke wrote a story about a 4th Wise Man that never made it there. I "have" to use the gifts that they gave in the appropo suits.
I will probably put in reindeer referances, without using names for fear of starting the Donner/Donder debate :D
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| Kyrielle |
03 Nov 2002 |
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What about The Snowman from the book by -- I've blanked on his name (Raymond something I think) -- he also wrote "Father Christmas" and "The Man" -- he writes and illustrates in kind of a comic-book style.
Have you ever thought about using Inuit (Eskimo) myths? Their mythology is rich in wintry atmosphere.
Thoughts on Andersen's Snow Queen: It's an allegory of "cold" science, mathematics, and reason vs. the "warmth" of emotions and friendship and innocence. Read it with William Blake in mind and you'll have a lot to think about.
The Snow Queen is not evil, nor does she ever maliciously harm Kai. She's not a devil figure, she represents the loss of innocence, when kids suddenly decide they're too big for baby games. She doesn't capture him -- he hitches his sled to hers himself.
The introduction to The Snow Queen is a story about the devil's mirror that breaks and sends its splinters into the world. That might make an interesting card.
I would go for Gerda and Kai for something, but you might want to reread Snow Queen before you decide. They'd go well as the Lovers, but you might see how they'd fit as the Sun or even the World. The word Kai must make from the puzzle pieces is "eternity," after all.
Mother Holle -- another one by Andersen about a snowy figure, benevolent this time. Also Holger Danske, aka Holger the Dane, comes to mind, although I haven't read this one in some time and can't remember if it actually references winter or not. It's about a sandman-type character.
Maybe I should do an all-Andersen tarot. Might start a thread for that one...
Anyway, those are my winter suggestions.
-- Kyrielle
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| Violet Gargoyle |
04 Nov 2002 |
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Originally posted by Kyrielle
What about The Snowman from the book by -- I've blanked on his name (Raymond something I think) -- he also wrote "Father Christmas" and "The Man" -- he writes and illustrates in kind of a comic-book style.
Have you ever thought about using Inuit (Eskimo) myths? Their mythology is rich in wintry atmosphere.
Thoughts on Andersen's Snow Queen: It's an allegory of "cold" science, mathematics, and reason vs. the "warmth" of emotions and friendship and innocence. Read it with William Blake in mind and you'll have a lot to think about.
The Snow Queen is not evil, nor does she ever maliciously harm Kai. She's not a devil figure, she represents the loss of innocence, when kids suddenly decide they're too big for baby games. She doesn't capture him -- he hitches his sled to hers himself.
The introduction to The Snow Queen is a story about the devil's mirror that breaks and sends its splinters into the world. That might make an interesting card.
I would go for Gerda and Kai for something, but you might want to reread Snow Queen before you decide. They'd go well as the Lovers, but you might see how they'd fit as the Sun or even the World. The word Kai must make from the puzzle pieces is "eternity," after all.
Mother Holle -- another one by Andersen about a snowy figure, benevolent this time. Also Holger Danske, aka Holger the Dane, comes to mind, although I haven't read this one in some time and can't remember if it actually references winter or not. It's about a sandman-type character.
Maybe I should do an all-Andersen tarot. Might start a thread for that one...
Anyway, those are my winter suggestions.
-- Kyrielle
I'd be interested to see your take on Anderson. It is a sort of strange concept of truth: a man who could come up with or at least enhance such wonderful characters, both male and female, yet for the most part he knew nothing of any relationship barring the platonic.
I've got the Snow Queen down as the Queen of Snowflakes (Pentacles) although, one could debate about that. I am still at that toss up between Kay and Gerda or Clara and the Nutcracker for the Lovers, mainly because I see the cards closely intertwined with each other, so if the Lovers is from the Nutcracker, I feel then the other should be (in that case its the Mouse King).
If I did take the Kay and Gerda path, it would definately be the mirror that is represented as the Devil (puts an interesting perspective on it) and not the Snow Queen, since she isnt the one to break the mirror and scatter the shards.
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| Demonesse |
04 Nov 2002 |
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I'd go for Gerda and Kay as the Lovers - the card can then be viewed as one of idyllic love, which is then tested by trials and tribulations before emerging once again. Besides, the Mirror would make a much more interesting and evocative Devil, and you could add the two demon-goblins who carried off the mirror in the first place too, perhaps as symbols for catalysts that instigate the forces of this card, whether external or internal.
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| Violet Gargoyle |
04 Nov 2002 |
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Originally posted by Demonesse
I'd go for Gerda and Kay as the Lovers - the card can then be viewed as one of idyllic love, which is then tested by trials and tribulations before emerging once again. Besides, the Mirror would make a much more interesting and evocative Devil, and you could add the two demon-goblins who carried off the mirror in the first place too, perhaps as symbols for catalysts that instigate the forces of this card, whether external or internal.
Well there is another reason for a mirror/devil card: I am not good at drawing beyond the stick figure/hello kitty abilities. Mirrors are kinda easy to do on the mac.....so unless I can coerce strangers to draw for me, best to keep it simple.....
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| RedWood |
04 Nov 2002 |
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i hope i am not going to off topic..
After you create the winter deck..How bout the rest of the seasons.. you could make the back card designs the same..and the same height..that way people could mix them???
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| Violet Gargoyle |
05 Nov 2002 |
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Originally posted by RedWood
i hope i am not going to off topic..
After you create the winter deck..How bout the rest of the seasons.. you could make the back card designs the same..and the same height..that way people could mix them???
I have considered the idea, but only in sort of passing for the moment, cause' thinking about the winter deck alone- well, that's a plate full to think about on its own......
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| Kyrielle |
05 Nov 2002 |
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If you can stand even more Andersen, there's Mother Holle, who makes snow fall as she shakes out her feather bed. His story The Fir Tree is about the brief glory of a Christmas tree, if you don't mind the Christian reference there. Then again, so much of Andersen is blatantly Christian -- the ending few scenes of Snow Queen, for instance. He was childlike in many ways, including his earnest devotion to his faith. Also to his women.
-- Kyrielle
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| Kyrielle |
12 Nov 2002 |
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Raymond Briggs! That's his name. Really, check out his book, The Snowman. Also read Father Christmas. You'll never see Santa the same way again.
-- Kyrielle
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| allibee |
12 Nov 2002 |
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There is another Ice Queen ...... The one from The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis - I think - ( Narnia Chronicles), and there is loads of other characters in there too.
For the devil, how about the title character from A Picture of Dorian Grey? Or even King Midas?, a couple of people there tied up in obsessing about the wrong things.
allibee
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| Jeanette |
12 Nov 2002 |
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And, there's a whole book full of winter-time characters from Dicken's Christmas Carol. But, since it's a Christmas story I don't know how much you want to use it. Isn't there something about gnomes and winter time in Norway?
This deck sounds so inspired! What type of medium will you do it in? Can you post some cards as they're finished so we can see them? Good luck with your project!!!!
Jeanette
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| lunalafey |
14 Nov 2002 |
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are you stricktly sticking to folklore?
Capricorn is associated with the Devil card, and is the sign that welcomes winter. I'd do a Capricorn, but that's just because I am one....
I think Santa as the Magician
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| Violet Gargoyle |
14 Nov 2002 |
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Originally posted by Jeanette
And, there's a whole book full of winter-time characters from Dicken's Christmas Carol. But, since it's a Christmas story I don't know how much you want to use it. Isn't there something about gnomes and winter time in Norway?
This deck sounds so inspired! What type of medium will you do it in? Can you post some cards as they're finished so we can see them? Good luck with your project!!!!
Jeanette
Ebenezer Scrooge is the Fool. So I don't have a problem using Dickens :D
I am trying to do this in collage/Photoshop (because drawing is not one of my strong attributes, everything looks like Hello Kitty otherwise)
I can certainly post a couple of the simple rough copies, Right now I only have the Tower (The Snowman).
Originally posted by lunalafey
are you stricktly sticking to folklore?
Capricorn is associated with the Devil card, and is the sign that welcomes winter. I'd do a Capricorn, but that's just because I am one....
I think Santa as the Magician
Folklore and mythology mostly. I think the latest referance that I have will be to the stories of the "Gift of the Magi" and "The Other Wise Man"
I got one version of Santa as the Magician, either as Kris Kringle or Joulupukki (if I could find more info about his origins)
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| ssplam |
14 Nov 2002 |
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I haven't read through all of the posts here, but I thought of one I would like to offer... If you haven't filled your list, I will happily help you search for others.
Someone mentioned Jack Frost and his mortal girl for the Lovers...
I'd forgotten that part of the story...but he came to mind as the Death card for me. Jack Frost freezes the vegetation for winter and prepares the earth for the next spring by giving everything a chance to start over when the freeze lifts.
Just a thought
Christina
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The Need Some Help with a Winter Themed Tarot thread was originally posted on 02 Nov 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
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